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American Morning

New Shot Fired in Battle Over Admitting Women in Prestigious Golf Club

Aired November 12, 2002 - 07:37   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: On to another controversy this morning. Yet a new shot is being fired in the battle over admitting women as members to the prestigious golf club that hosts the Master's tournament. For the first time today in a number of newspapers, Augusta National Chairman Hootie Johnson has gone on the record making it clear that he has not changed his mind against admitting female members.
Should a private club be allowed to decide who gets in and who doesn't on the basis of sex?

Joining us right now is Martha Burk of the National Council of Women's Organizations. She joins us from Washington this morning. And in New York, Ron Sirak -- is it Sirak or Sirak?

RON SIRAK, "GOLF WORLD": Sirak.

ZAHN: Sirak. OK. I wanted to get that right. Executive director of the "Golf World" magazine.

Glad to have both of you with us.

I wanted to start off this morning by repeating a little bit of what Hootie Johnson had to say in the "Wall Street Journal," for starters, in an op-ed piece. We're going to put that up on the screen now. And he says, "The end is near for women's colleges like Smith and Wellesley, historically black colleges like Spelman. The General Services Administration, the Junior League, fraternities and sororities would all have to be dissolved or radically changed from the single sex profile that has become an essential part of their character."

Martha, does he have a point there?

MARTHA BURK, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS: No, he doesn't have a point there. He is not a Boy Scout and neither are his members. His members are CEOs of America's largest corporations. I actually don't know whether Augusta could pass the legal tests that he's referring to for private clubs, because they do business there, they're open to the public. They produce a multi-million dollar sporting event.

Now, when their members show up on my door selling cookies to raise money, I might buy the Boy Scout/Girl Scout argument. By the way, the Girl Scouts do accept boys. But that's not going to wash. This is a group of CEOs that are keeping out women. He's saying it. He's saying we've always discriminated, we like discriminating, we're going to continue.

ZAHN: Ron, do you think that's what he's saying here?

SIRAK: Yes, you know, I think that what we're seeing here is the news is not so much what he said today but the fact that he said it. After four months of letting Dr. Burk control the public relations momentum on this issue, he granted these interviews, he did an op-ed piece for the "Wall Street Journal" today and tomorrow the club's going to release a poll, which is going to show support for the club's position.

They're fighting back and the position hasn't changed at all.

ZAHN: When you talk about releasing a poll for the club's position, who would support that? Aren't these CEOs out there a little bit nervous, particularly CEOs that I am told have lawsuits filed against them for discrimination for women and they're very nervous about this one.

SIRAK: Well, they've gone to the public with this poll and they've found numbers that show that there is some support out there for the right of a private club to determine its own membership. And, you know, and that's the bind that we're in here between that right and the fact that they have the Master's makes them a very public organization.

ZAHN: Martha, why shouldn't a private club be allowed to decide who makes up their membership?

BURK: Paula, if it's a small private club, a few people getting together with friends, I have no quarrel with it, or if it's a private club that truly remains private. Now, I think that, I don't agree with exclusion of women from golf clubs regardless, but we would not certainly be addressing the issue if they didn't have the most public golf event on the planet.

I just want to address that poll for a minute. As I understand it, and I'm getting a lot of calls about that poll, it's what we call a push poll. And that's done all the time in politics. It's a poll that is not scientific. It is designed to elicit a certain answer and the person commissioning the poll gets to word the questions in any way they want. The professional pollsters won't touch those kind of polls. And I understand that's what they did.

ZAHN: Ron, a quick reaction to that?

SIRAK: Yes, that's pretty much my understanding of what that poll is, also.

ZAHN: All right, so you're not going to sit there and defend this poll as a great scientific test...

SIRAK: Well, I haven't seen the poll...

ZAHN: ... of the level of support?

SIRAK: I haven't seen the poll, I haven't seen the numbers.

ZAHN: All right, Martha, in closing, as a serious golfer myself, I want to throw this out to you. There are a lot of women saying that if you play at Augusta National, not as a member, but as a guest, the rules are far less restrictive than they are in just about every other golf course in America. Is that true?

BURK: I don't...

ZAHN: Can't women pretty much play when they want to at Augusta here...

BURK: No.

ZAHN: ... if they're guests?

BURK: No, they cannot. They cannot, Paula. Their husband actually has to be on the premises. And even if they could play as second class citizens, that is what the issue is here. It's discrimination. It's not golf. It's not one woman on one golf course. It's why is it all right in the 21st century to discriminate against women, to defend it and for the CEOs of America's largest corporations to belong to a club that excludes half their customers?

ZAHN: Ron, a final thought from you?

SIRAK: Well, I think that the final thought is I would have thought last April when I left Master's that there would be a woman member before next year's tournament and a month ago I would have thought there'd certainly be a woman member before the 2004 tournament. Now, I don't know when there's going to be a female member there.

ZAHN: All right, Ron Sirak, Martha Burk, appreciate both of your perspectives this morning. Glad to see both of you.

BURK: Thank you.

SIRAK: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Prestigious Golf Club>


Aired November 12, 2002 - 07:37   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: On to another controversy this morning. Yet a new shot is being fired in the battle over admitting women as members to the prestigious golf club that hosts the Master's tournament. For the first time today in a number of newspapers, Augusta National Chairman Hootie Johnson has gone on the record making it clear that he has not changed his mind against admitting female members.
Should a private club be allowed to decide who gets in and who doesn't on the basis of sex?

Joining us right now is Martha Burk of the National Council of Women's Organizations. She joins us from Washington this morning. And in New York, Ron Sirak -- is it Sirak or Sirak?

RON SIRAK, "GOLF WORLD": Sirak.

ZAHN: Sirak. OK. I wanted to get that right. Executive director of the "Golf World" magazine.

Glad to have both of you with us.

I wanted to start off this morning by repeating a little bit of what Hootie Johnson had to say in the "Wall Street Journal," for starters, in an op-ed piece. We're going to put that up on the screen now. And he says, "The end is near for women's colleges like Smith and Wellesley, historically black colleges like Spelman. The General Services Administration, the Junior League, fraternities and sororities would all have to be dissolved or radically changed from the single sex profile that has become an essential part of their character."

Martha, does he have a point there?

MARTHA BURK, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS: No, he doesn't have a point there. He is not a Boy Scout and neither are his members. His members are CEOs of America's largest corporations. I actually don't know whether Augusta could pass the legal tests that he's referring to for private clubs, because they do business there, they're open to the public. They produce a multi-million dollar sporting event.

Now, when their members show up on my door selling cookies to raise money, I might buy the Boy Scout/Girl Scout argument. By the way, the Girl Scouts do accept boys. But that's not going to wash. This is a group of CEOs that are keeping out women. He's saying it. He's saying we've always discriminated, we like discriminating, we're going to continue.

ZAHN: Ron, do you think that's what he's saying here?

SIRAK: Yes, you know, I think that what we're seeing here is the news is not so much what he said today but the fact that he said it. After four months of letting Dr. Burk control the public relations momentum on this issue, he granted these interviews, he did an op-ed piece for the "Wall Street Journal" today and tomorrow the club's going to release a poll, which is going to show support for the club's position.

They're fighting back and the position hasn't changed at all.

ZAHN: When you talk about releasing a poll for the club's position, who would support that? Aren't these CEOs out there a little bit nervous, particularly CEOs that I am told have lawsuits filed against them for discrimination for women and they're very nervous about this one.

SIRAK: Well, they've gone to the public with this poll and they've found numbers that show that there is some support out there for the right of a private club to determine its own membership. And, you know, and that's the bind that we're in here between that right and the fact that they have the Master's makes them a very public organization.

ZAHN: Martha, why shouldn't a private club be allowed to decide who makes up their membership?

BURK: Paula, if it's a small private club, a few people getting together with friends, I have no quarrel with it, or if it's a private club that truly remains private. Now, I think that, I don't agree with exclusion of women from golf clubs regardless, but we would not certainly be addressing the issue if they didn't have the most public golf event on the planet.

I just want to address that poll for a minute. As I understand it, and I'm getting a lot of calls about that poll, it's what we call a push poll. And that's done all the time in politics. It's a poll that is not scientific. It is designed to elicit a certain answer and the person commissioning the poll gets to word the questions in any way they want. The professional pollsters won't touch those kind of polls. And I understand that's what they did.

ZAHN: Ron, a quick reaction to that?

SIRAK: Yes, that's pretty much my understanding of what that poll is, also.

ZAHN: All right, so you're not going to sit there and defend this poll as a great scientific test...

SIRAK: Well, I haven't seen the poll...

ZAHN: ... of the level of support?

SIRAK: I haven't seen the poll, I haven't seen the numbers.

ZAHN: All right, Martha, in closing, as a serious golfer myself, I want to throw this out to you. There are a lot of women saying that if you play at Augusta National, not as a member, but as a guest, the rules are far less restrictive than they are in just about every other golf course in America. Is that true?

BURK: I don't...

ZAHN: Can't women pretty much play when they want to at Augusta here...

BURK: No.

ZAHN: ... if they're guests?

BURK: No, they cannot. They cannot, Paula. Their husband actually has to be on the premises. And even if they could play as second class citizens, that is what the issue is here. It's discrimination. It's not golf. It's not one woman on one golf course. It's why is it all right in the 21st century to discriminate against women, to defend it and for the CEOs of America's largest corporations to belong to a club that excludes half their customers?

ZAHN: Ron, a final thought from you?

SIRAK: Well, I think that the final thought is I would have thought last April when I left Master's that there would be a woman member before next year's tournament and a month ago I would have thought there'd certainly be a woman member before the 2004 tournament. Now, I don't know when there's going to be a female member there.

ZAHN: All right, Ron Sirak, Martha Burk, appreciate both of your perspectives this morning. Glad to see both of you.

BURK: Thank you.

SIRAK: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Prestigious Golf Club>