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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Iraq Accepts U.N. Resolution, But War May Be On Horizon Anyway; Interview with Nathaniel Osbourne
Aired November 13, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung. Tonight, Iraq blinks, but is Saddam actually winking at the U.N.?
ANNOUNCER: Iraq accepts the U.N. resolution.
MOHAMMAD ALDOURI, U.N. AMBASSADOR: We are prepared to receive the inspectors within the assigned timetable.
But, the question remains, can Saddam be trusted?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's no negotiations with Mr. Saddam Hussein. Those days are long gone.
ANNOUNCER: The voice on the tape.
If it is Osama bin Laden, where will he strike next?
BUSH: We need to take these messages very seriously.
ANNOUNCER: Exclusive. Nathaniel Osbourne, the man linked to the sniper suspects, now under house arrest. Tonight, for the first time, he tells Connie what he knows about Muhammad and Malvo.
Is Wall Street a man's world? Absolutely, according to one woman who was victimized. Shocking claims of intimidation and sexual harassment.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. Saddam Hussein has said yes to the tough new U.N. resolution calling on Iraq to disarm. Iraq's acceptance comes two days early, ahead of the Friday deadline. Iraq's reluctantly agreed to permit weapons inspectors back into the country and to allow total access.
The U.S. is reacting skeptically, making it clear that Iraq's failure to cooperate fully will almost certainly mean war.
National correspondent Frank Buckley is on the story tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALDOURI: Yes, I did delivered the letter to the office of the Secretary-General.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi Ambassador Mohammad Aldouri confirming that Saddam Hussein and Iraq will comply with the U.N. Security Council resolution. A defiant nine-page letter telling U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, "We are prepared to receive the inspectors within the assigned timetable despite," the letter says, "its bad contents."
Inspectors will prove, say the Iraqis, that Iraq doesn't have any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.
ALDOURI: We tried to explain our position saying that Iraq have and had not and will not have any mass destruction weapons. So we are not worried about the inspectors when they will be back in the country.
BUCKLEY: As the White House digested the letter, U.N. Secretary- General Kofi Annan arrived for a face-to-face meeting with the president, who had pushed the U.N. to be more aggressive with Iraq on inspections.
BUSH: The U.N. stepped up to its responsibilities and I want to thank you for that, Mr. Secretary-General.
BUCKLEY: Mr. Annan emerged from the meeting to say Iraq must now allow inspectors to do their job.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: The issue is not the acceptance, but performance on the ground.
BUCKLEY: The White House shares the view. Earlier in the day, President Bush said that the U.S. will have a zero tolerance policy if inspectors are blocked in any way.
BUSH: I want to remind you all that inspectors are there to determine whether or not Saddam Hussein is willing to disarm. It's his choice to make and should he choose not to disarm, we will disarm him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (on camera): By Monday, the first of the inspectors should be on the ground in Baghdad. By December 8, Iraq is required to give an inventory of all of its weapons programs. If anything is omitted from that list that should be there, according to White House officials, that will be considered a violation and that could trigger a military response -- Connie.
CHUNG: Frank, in the past, the Iraqis have basically obstructed the inspectors. Where do you think the Bush administration is going to draw the line this time around?
BUCKLEY: Well, the U.S. position is pretty clear. The White House saying that there's no room for interpretation. They're not going to play, as they've called it, rope-a-dope in the desert. They say any material breach is a serious material breach. They will immediately take that to the Security Council, engage in the debate in the Security Council. At the same time, retaining the right to act unilaterally or with friends as the president has put it if they feel that military action is required.
CHUNG: All right. Frank Buckley at the White House, thank you.
Are Iraqis breathing a sigh of relief now that Baghdad has accepted the U.N. resolution?
Iraqis saw pictures of a relaxed Saddam Hussein meeting with his top aides before giving the green light to the U.N. resolution. Saddam says he's only complying with the tough U.N. measure to stop a U.S. strike against his country.
We are joined now by CNN's Rym Brahimi in Baghdad. Rym, thank you for being with us.
Do you believe that the Iraqis will react immediately to President Bush's contention that our position is zero tolerance? .
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the fact is, Connie, that they have accepted or at least they've just announced that they've accepted that resolution. And so this would seem to indicate that they are prepared to comply and to cooperate.
Now how far are they prepared to cooperate? They say they will probably -- they say they will cooperate as far as their territorial integrity and the national sovereignty is not touched upon and that's really, really very key and it's going to be key in the weeks and months to come in terms of how the inspectors will be able to do their jobs here.
This is one of the main concerns Iraq has had with the resolution because Iraq has said that the resolution is pull full the pitfalls, that it violates territorial integrity. It violates the national sovereignty and their national security and therefore it's like walking on a minefield, because --because although they're prepared to accept weapons inspectors to come in to prove Iraq says that there are no weapons of mass destruction, well, they're also very wary of how the inspectors will operate on the ground -- Connie.
CHUNG: Rym, was the Iraqi decision a signal in some way to the Arab nations?
BRAHIMI: Well, it was certainly a signal to the Arab nations in terms of responding to the Arab nations' call for Iraq to accept the resolution. Arab countries have been recently calling on Iraq first of all to allow the inspectors back in and this is they did on September 16. They announced they would let the inspectors return to Iraq when the foreign minister was in New York at the U.N. -- at the general assembly there.
And now there's been -- a few days ago there was this foreign minister's meeting in Cairo of the Arab countries and again, they urged Iraq to accept this resolution, Resolution 1441, saying it would ward off the threat of a U.S.-led attack. So they've done this seeing that they were listening to their friends' advice. This is why part of the reason they've accepted this resolution, they say, but of course, they're also saying that they would like the Arab League to monitor, in a way, what's going to happen. They would -- they say they've accepted this, but under the umbrella of the Arab League in a way.
They would like, for instance, Arab experts to accompany the U.N. weapons inspectors -- Connie.
CHUNG: All right. Rym Brahimi, thank you.
Now the question on everyone's mind is why will inspections be different this time around? Iraq says inspectors will be able to search and go anywhere they want, but will Saddam really give them full access?
CNN's U.N. correspondent Richard Roth takes a look at what the new inspection team is likely to face.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After a four- year break, the U.N. inspectors are raring to go.
Chief Inspector Hans Blix will lead a logistical team into Baghdad on November 18 and by early next month, Iraq must provide a complete list of any weapons of mass destruction. Iraq says it doesn't have any. The U.S. says it does.
Inspections will begin soon after, with full deployment by December 23. Blix reports back to the Security Council on what he finds in late February, next year.
While they are in Iraq, call them Inspector Gadget. As they return to Iraq, U.N. weapons inspectors will themselves be armed with new, high tech gear to ferret out any trace of weapons of mass destruction.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: If it is true that there's really no development in the technical devices for inspection, we'll make use of that.
ROTH: Devices, such as this handheld germ analyzer, called the HANNA, developed by the Lawrence Livermore Lab in California.
Bioweapons detection much faster than when inspectors were last inside Iraq.
PAGE STOUTLAND, LAWRENCE LIVERMORE LABORATORY: It's the difference between doing an analysis in an hour or even a day compared to sending samples back to the United States or somewhere elsewhere it might take a day or two or three or a week to return the samples.
ROTH: The inspectors' only way of surveying Iraq while being kept out of the country has been by air, through commercial satellites. Here, a peek at some of Saddam Hussein's palaces. Inspections by air may get a big boost with the potential use of the unmanned predator drone vehicle used by the U.S. in Afghanistan.
JONATHAN TUCKER, FMR U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: No systems can hover for many hours, up to 24 hours over a location and, for example, if there is an inspection under way at a site, they could monitor what is going on.
ROTH: With Iraq saying it has nothing to hide, Arab nations say it would be like trying to prove a negative.
AHMED ABDUL GHEIT, EGYPTIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: The burden on proof comes from the accuser or from that who claims that there is weapons of mass destruction.
ROTH: The inspectors are armed with tougher orders than before. The Security Council resolution says, Go anywhere, any time, including the increasing number of presidential palaces.
(on camera): Once they get there, the question remains what constitutes interference serious enough to trigger a military response?
Richard Roth, CNN, United Nations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: White House officials are downplaying Iraq's acceptance of the resolution. They're saying, We want action, not words. What is it like dealing with the Iraqis and Saddam Hussein?
Well, ambassador Joseph Wilson is the former U.S. charge d'affaires to Iraq. He has exchanged many words with Saddam one-on- one, as acting ambassador to Iraq at the time of the Gulf War. And he joins us from Washington this evening to give us a sense of how Saddam operates.
Thank you, sir, for being with us. Now, you were the last official to meet with Saddam. You negotiated with him. You met with him face-to-face. Does he have a strategy in accepting the U.N. resolution?
JOSEPH WILSON, U.S. CHARGE D'AFFAIRES IN IRAQ: Good evening, Connie. How are you this evening?
CHUNG: Good.
WILSON: As to Saddam's strategy, I think what he's trying to do is figure out a way to slip, once again, the noose that's been put around his neck.
The U.N. resolution pretty much painted him into the corner that he deserves to be in and that, coupled with the president's and Tony Blair's public statements suggest very strongly that there is going to be, as the president quite clearly said, zero tolerance. So one misstep and you face essentially a military response.
CHUNG: Well, do you believe that he has weapons of mass destruction?
WILSON: Oh, I think everybody, the general consensus is he has chemical weapons. He has at a minimum, biological precursors and I'm not sure if he's been able to weaponize them or has any still in stock and he has an active nuclear research and development program.
I don't think there's a lot of debate on that anymore.
CHUNG: Did he not tell you that he would use weapons of mass destruction if he's invaded and if he did say that, are we to believe that he will use weapons of mass destruction once we invade?
WILSON: Tariq Aziz told me explicitly that Iraq reserved the right to use every weapon in its arsenal when invaded. And he said that in the context of the use of using chemicals against Iranians.
Saddam himself alluded very strongly that he would use chemicals and weapons of mass destruction in the event of an invasion. He told me that should the United States try to thwart his conquest of Kuwait, he would spill the blood of 10,000 Americans on the Arabian desert.
CHUNG: Well then just to press you on that, does that actually mean our soldiers, when we invade, if we bomb, but if we also bring our soldiers into that territory -- does that mean that weapons of mass destruction will be used against us?
WILSON: I operate on the assumption and I think most of the military planners are operating on the assumption that the minute our American soldiers set foot on Iraqi territory, he will use every weapon in his arsenal, one. And two, he will draw Israel into a broader war that he can then characterize as an Iraqi "Defense of the Arab nation against the modern day Judeo-Christian crusade."
CHUNG: Now, Saddam does not want, obviously, an uprising and he's trying to portray the Iraqis as victims of the U.S. What are the chances that the Iraqis will cause an uprising against him?
WILSON: I think that's anybody's guess. There are those around here who say that they think we will be welcome as liberators. I'm not exactly sure that's going to be the case.
Clearly, the Iraqis fought fiercely against the Iranians for eight years in the Iran-Iraq war and invading their territory will spur, I believe, their nationalist and patriotic feelings. So it's also absolutely clear that, however they may feel about Saddam, for the last 12 years, they have been told repeatedly that the economic deprivation they have suffered, including having to sell family heirlooms to survive has been caused by the Western and U.S.-imposed economic sanctions.
So even if they don't like Saddam, that does not necessarily translate into warm feelings towards the United States or the West.
CHUNG: Ambassador Wilson, thank you so much for your insight. We appreciate that. And...
WILSON: My pleasure.
And still ahead: he's the mystery figure in the D.C. sniper story. The co-owner of the alleged sniper's Chevy Caprice. Still ahead, Nathaniel Osbourne sits down for his first television interview.
ANNOUNCER: Next, a chilling audiotape, almost certainly the voice of bin Laden.
BUSH: Whoever put this tape out had put the world on notice yet again that we're at war.
ANNOUNCER: What's next in the five against terrorism? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: The White House is taking the frightening new message almost certainly from Osama bin Laden very seriously. President Bush spoke to reporters about the chilling tape at a cabinet meeting this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The message is a serious message and it reminds -- should remind all Americans and remind our friends and allies that there is a active enemy that continues to hate, is willing to use murder as a way to achieve their goals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: As we've been reporting, American intelligence officials think the recording was made within the last few weeks. Those officials also say the voice on the tape is almost certainly that of bin Laden.
But they are still working to determine whether the tape itself may be a fabrication, pieced together either through computer generation or splicing.
Now, the message on the tape praises a string of recent terror attacks and for the first time, directly threatens the U.S. and its allies.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So why are your governments allying themselves with America in attacking us in Afghanistan? especially to mention Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen joins me now from our Washington bureau. Always good to have you, Peter. Help us analyze this tape and what it may mean.
The -- Osama bin Laden is clearly warning U.S. allies. What is his goal in doing so?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it might be twofold.
I mean, for a start, he's very specific. For instance, he talked about the Bali blast that killed 180 people, mostly Australians and he specifically says, you know, we targeted it because of Australia's presence in the war in Afghanistan and that was kind of our revenge and then he lists a laundry list of other countries: Canada, Italy, Germany, Britain and France, which he's also calling for attacks against. He's trying to energize people to do these attacks or he's sort of preparing people for the fact these attacks are going to occur.
We've seen attacks on a French oil tanker in Yemen. His No. 2 has also made references to attacks on Germans and French people around the world.
So this is an organization that was kind of more narrowly devoted to attacking Americans, but is now actually looking to move to attack not only Americans, but any Westerner.
CHUNG: We all heard what President Bush said and, quite frankly, it's a bit frightening. Are we to expect a terrorist attack here on our shores?
BERGEN: Well, I think that you can safely predict that we can expect a terrorist attack against a Western target, somewhere in the world very soon because bin Laden's statements are a good guide to his action.
Does that mean they'll be attacking the United States? Yes. That's -- you know, it's hard to tell. It's much easier to attack, let's say, an American business somewhere in the Middle East than it is, probably, to attack -- launch an attack inside the United States.
I'd say if you were running a company like a McDonald's or a Kentucky Fried, some very obvious symbol of America in a country like Pakistan, you should be considering your security measures, because bin Laden is very specifically calling for attacks on economic targets, not in this tape, but this tape authenticates a tape that we saw two weeks ago that didn't get much attention.
CHUNG: Why didn't that get much attention? Was it was played in Al-Jazeera?
BERGEN: It didn't get much attention because it could have been a cut and splice job. It really could have been, because it didn't have any of the specific time references that we have in this tape. This tape has about ten different references that make it very clear that -- it references the attack in Bali, it references the attack in Kuwait. It -- all these kinds of recent attacks.
The previous tape didn't really mention these attacks, but it did call for attacks on economic targets, and Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden's number two, right at the same time, also called for attacks on economic targets, and I think that the future plan is to attack economic targets because economic targets are ubiquitous.
American government buildings, embassies, and military bases around the world are quite secure, they're relatively hard targets. A disco in Bali is, by definition, a very soft target, very easy to attack.
CHUNG: And when you say economic targets, is that why you mentioned, for instance, a McDonald's or a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Pakistan, those are the economic targets that you are suggesting?
BERGEN: I mean, I don't want to single those companies out...
CHUNG: Yes, I understand.
BERGEN: But I do think that when both bin Laden and his number two say, We're going to attack American economic targets, that means that American economic targets will be targeted.
The question is where. It's impossible to tell, but I think that it is easier to attack American economic targets outside the United States than within the United States. Obviously, al Qaeda would like to attack within the United States, but the attacks we've seen so far, the one in Yemen against an oil tanker that happened to be French, and against the disco in Bali, the ones we've seen recently have been outside the United States.
CHUNG: All right. Tell us what you think of the timing. I mean, is that crucial, that it was released now, and also the length of the tape, and the fact that it wasn't a videotape?
BERGEN: Well, the fact that it wasn't a videotape is interesting. Maybe -- that could be for several reasons. One is, bin Laden may be in very poor health and may not want to reveal it.
Two, he may have adopted a disguise. Three, he may be concerned that -- some of these videotapes, you are able to tell where they're shot because of the background, you at least have some notion of where they are shot.
The other thing, the reason the tape may have been so short, perhaps he is in such poor health, that that is all he can manage, because previous tapes we have seen from him have been up to half and hour, 45 minutes.
But the timing right now is kind of brilliant in a way, because we're right at this crisis point with Iraq, whether it's -- the passage through the United Nations, Iraq's acceptance of the United Nations resolution. This comes at a very delicate moment in the history of the Middle East. Bin Laden is interested in stirring this up. I'm not saying that he's a fan of Saddam Hussein, because he isn't, but certainly he's very provoked by the U.N. sanctions that have -- by the U.N.'s own numbers, have killed 500,000 Iraqi children. I'm not blaming the U.N. for that, I'm blaming Saddam's noncompliance, but the fact is that a lot of civilians have died as a result of these sanctions, and a lot of civilians will die in a future war.
So bin Laden is releasing this tape at a moment which is propitious for him, in terms of playing on the kind of intense emotions that are generated by a possible war against Iraq within the Middle East.
CHUNG: Peter Bergen, thank you. Always good to talk to you.
Coming up, my exclusive interview with the man the police, at one point called a material witness to the sniper shootings.
ANNOUNCER: Next, what does it take to defend two of the country's most hated suspects?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is crucial in this case that this -- these matters be tried in the courtroom, not on the steps of a courthouse or in front of a courthouse.
ANNOUNCER: Muhammad and Malvo, on the defense. When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As we continue to learn bits and pieces about the sniper suspects, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, the story becomes more and more disturbing.
Tonight, we're going to hear from a man who encountered both of them, not for very long, but long enough. We've heard a great deal about Nathaniel Osbourne. He had the incredible misfortune of helping Muhammad buy the car allegedly used in the Washington-area sniper shootings.
When police made the link, Osbourne was picked up as a material witness in the sniper case, and put in federal custody for a grueling week, and then released, but he still remains under house arrest.
Just a short time ago, I spoke with him at the home where he remains confined in an exclusive interview about how one very small decision turned his life upside down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: What has your life been like since John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo were arrested?
NATHANIEL OSBOURNE, MATERIAL WITNESS: You know, I've experienced something that I've never experienced before, you know? I've never been handcuffed and shackled by my feet.
CHUNG: Handcuffed and shackled?
OSBOURNE: Shackled on my hands, chains around my waist. You know, I was in there just very much like a common criminal, you know?
CHUNG: Did they tell you why they were here in New Jersey and what they were doing?
OSBOURNE: Very much, I wasn't the person who they came by to see. Mr. Muhammad really had come by to spend a day or two with, as it was told to me, and my brother, you know? And I really took this stance where with I should have, where with they weren't my visitors, but I tried to be, you know, be as hospitable as I could with them, you know?
CHUNG: So you were basically very friendly. They were your brother's friends.
OSBOURNE: Yes, you know, I just treated them like what my brother would practically treat them, you know?
CHUNG: Now, on only the second day that you met them, you took John Muhammad to help him buy a car. Why did you do that?
OSBOURNE: Very much Mr. Muhammad was away for a couple hours and I was told by the younger, Lee, that they were interested in a car. Very much, I won't lie to you. I -- I bought a car, and I knew where cheap cars were.
CHUNG: I think what people can't understand is why would you sign yourself on as a co-owner and help these people you didn't even know buy a car.
OSBOURNE: I said to myself, if that's all that they needed, you know, I would help them to get it.
It wasn't nothing difficult for me because that's the kind of person I am, very much, you know? I honestly, I've done numerous -- I helped the people across the street from me. If they wanted to go somewhere, I'd take them.
CHUNG: Did you find anything unusual about the room that they were staying in or how they were living when they were living with your -- in that house?
OSBOURNE: They had put a bigger lock -- the big silver lock on the door.
CHUNG: Now looking back, do you think they were hiding something in there?
OSBOURNE: They just might be, but, you know, all that there was that lock and very much -- it could have been that they were hiding something, but I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell.
CHUNG: Did John Muhammad seem to you as being an angry person or a violent person?
OSBOURNE: I tell you, honestly, I wasn't in calculation of his personality to that depth to really what -- what the normal state of him was just like a practical man.
But, you know, I took interest in only the part of him where he was health conscious. And I like health things and he had protein capsules and all kinds of stuff. He talked about health and he had even a book that I was a little bit interested in that had a lot to do with health, you know?
CHUNG: What about John Malvo? What did you think of him? The 17-year-old boy.
OSBOURNE: When I spoke to him he was telling me about, you know, he wanted to get into aviation, you know? I asked him about school and all that and we spoke about Jamaica, you know?
CHUNG: Because you're from Jamaica.
OSBOURNE: I'm from Jamaica and he was very much -- he's a very intelligent guy, you know? And, honestly, he spoke even of his dad, you know, that actually his dad was like the best thing that topped him, you know?
CHUNG: John Muhammad.
OSBOURNE: Yes.
CHUNG: What were your impressions, because as you probably now know John Lee Malvo was basically abandoned by his mother and was living by his own when John Muhammad found hum.
OSBOURNE: Yes, very much, what I realized it was up to Mr. Muhammad, you know?
CHUNG: Would you say that he worshipped him?
OSBOURNE: Worshipped -- very much, he was the only example he had, you know?
CHUNG: After they were arrested, was that the first indication, the first bit of knowledge that you had that they were in indeed suspected of being the snipers?
OSBOURNE: Honestly, I was shocked when I saw them on TV that Tuesday, you know? I couldn't believe it, you know? Honestly...
CHUNG: And when you discovered that the car that they were arrested in was in fact that Chevy Caprice.
OSBOURNE: That all came to me because, you know, that all came to me that I had helped him with the car and, you know, out of kindness of my heart I did that.
CHUNG: Honestly?
OSBOURNE: From the bottom of my heart, from the kindness of my heart I did that towards him because I can tell you, today, none of them which can say they never offered me a dollar.
CHUNG: Looking back, is it so obvious to you that you never should have bought that car with John Muhammad? Or would you do it again?
OSBOURNE: Honestly, if I could erase this all idea, I would, you know?
CHUNG: Knows that that car was allegedly the sniper's nest.
OSBOURNE: And as I heard that, you know, very much all I have to say, you know, it's a tragedy, you know? It should have never happened, you know, a man's heart should have never been like that to, you know, conceive such a -- such thoughts, you know. Conceived to do such things and I -- I -- my heart goes out to the victims, you know. The victims' families, it's -- I know it's hard thing to swallow and am very much -- I only hope that, you know, that that God will comfort them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Again, Nathaniel Osbourne at his home in New Jersey. He remains under house arrest and he says at this point he doesn't know why.
He says he had no knowledge of what those two men, the alleged suspected snipers were going to do when they left New Jersey. He also says that he wanted to -- he wants to create a school in Jamaica because as he met with Malvo, he realized that here's a young man who he thought, this is Osbourne talking he thought that Malvo was the kind of person whose life could have changed had he not been uneducated and left alone, basically orphaned.
So this young man, Nathaniel Osbourne, 26-year-old -- 26 years old says he wants to start a school in his country, in Jamaica, to be able to take teenagers who are lost and unable to get an education and to help them out.
Meantime, an eerie new photo has been released of sniper suspect John Muhammad from his time in the National Guard. Long before the former soldier was arrested as a serial killer. Muhammad made a very brief court appearance in Prince William County, Virginia, this morning. He was told to return in about a month and a trial date might be set.
Muhammad was assigned a new high profile defense team. That team will be led by Peter Greenspun, a defense attorney with impressive credentials. And Greenspun has wasted no time going on the attack accusing police of trying to taint a potential jury by leaking information. CNN's Patty Davis looks at the sniper defense.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sniper suspects case has generated massive publicity, at least 12 dead in a string of shootings from Montgomery, Alabama, to Washington, D.C.
John Lee Malvo and John Muhammad could face the death penalty in Virginia. Muhammad's court-appointed attorney is urging the public to keep an open mind. PETER GREENSPUN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is crucial in this case that these matters be tried in the courtroom, not on the steps of a courthouse.
DAVIS: Forty-nine-year-old Peter Greenspun is a high-profile criminal defense lawyer, known for his aggressive style and drama in the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there's something there either legally or factually and if he has the resources he will find it and he will exploit it.
DAVIS: Greenspun defended sports broadcaster Marv Albert against charges of forcible sodomy, which ended with Albert pleading guilty to a misdemeanor. He's also handled his share of death penalty cases.
Wednesday the court beefed up Muhammad's defense team, appointing another well-known lawyer, Jonathan Shapiro. His latest case, trying to keep Brian Regan (ph), an alleged spy, off death row.
ANDREW WHITE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: With Mr. Muhammad, if the -- if the forensic evidence holds true, it's a very difficult defense.
DAVIS: It will also be a difficult defense for 17-year-old John Lee Malvo, who a source says told investigators he pulled the trigger in some of the sniper shootings.
Malvo's court-appointed lawyer, Michael Arif says he'll move to have the statements thrown out since Malvo didn't have a lawyer present during the interrogation.
MICHAEL ARIF, MALVO DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don't think you're going to have a confession for something he didn't do. At this point we're pleading not guilty. That's the intent. That's the plan. We're going to trial.
DAVIS: In the courtroom, the 51-year-old criminal defense attorney is not considered as flashy as Greenspun, but just as effective. He's known for his subdued style and focus juvenile cases. Arif has also had numerous death penalty cases.
CHANDRA KINSEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He's a compassionate person who, in my opinion, has the ability to shed light on the human element of the accused.
DAVIS (voice-over): As for their strategy, the defense lawyers aren't talking. Legal experts say they'll need to attack the forensic evidence and keep Malvo's statements out of court in order to plant reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors.
Patty Davis, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next, claims of intimidation and sexual harassment on Wall Street. One woman's alarming accusations when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Let's face it. Wall Street isn't just about money. It's about sex. Sex and power and it's about conquest, taking the big risks, winning the big prize. For decades, it was a man's world and when women entered that world, a lot of men didn't like it.
Now a new book has exposed some of the widespread misbehavior, harassment and, worse. We'll meet the author and a woman who suffered through all of that in just a bit, but first, we've asked financial news correspondent Christine Romans to look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wall Street has long been a man's world, from the days of suits and cigars, an aggressive rough-and-tumble boy's club.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's too much.
ROMANS: Muriel Siebert (ph) knows that better than anyone, she broke the gender barrier 35 years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I bought a seat December 28, 1967 and, you know, when you're the first person to break a tradition that's 175 years old, not everybody's going to love you.
ROMANS: It wasn't easy for Siebert and for many women on Wall Street, it still isn't. Consider this survey: one in three Wall Street women say sexual harassment exists at their firms. Two out of three think they work harder to get the same rewards as men.
And what do men think? Thirteen percent reported a climate of sexual harassment against women, but 27 percent of Wall Street men fear reverse discrimination.
JANET HANSON, FOUNDER, 85 BROADS: People always ask the question is wall street a culture that is hospitable or hostile to women? And I really think it's very much what do you want to make it.
ROMANS: Clearly, some women are making it. The days of working golf excursions, no women allowed, are mostly gone. So, too, are the strippers.
ALEXANDRA LEBENTHAL, PRES. & CEO, LEBENTHAL & CO.: I do remember in the first days of my career, not at Lebanthal, when it was completely normal on a weekly basis to see a stripper walk into the trading floor for somebody's birthday.
ROMANS: Wall Street lawsuits in the late 1990s caught main street's attention. Four years ago Salomon Smith Barney settled the notorious Boom Boom Room case, spending $15 million on diversity training and more female managers.
Merrill Lynch has settled nearly all of the gender discrimination claims brought against it in a 1998 class action. A sex discrimination lawsuit against Morgan Stanley Dean Witter is still pending.
ROMANS: Muriel Siebert concedes there is legal progress, but not true equality.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It won't happen until the senior people at the major firms make a decided -- a determination that we are going to promote women.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: CNN's Christine Romans, she'll be with us in a moment along with one of the women she mentioned who will tell her shocking story about what happened to her on the job. It wasn't pretty. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: In the '90s, tales of widespread sexual scandal and discrimination against women began to surface on Wall Street. Stories of abusive x-rated language and routine lewd behavior by male stockbrokers and executives.
Kathleen Keegan worked for Smith Barney where she claims she was sexually harassed. Journalist Susan Antilla heard the stories of the men behaving badly and put them into her book, "Tales From the Boom Boom Room."
Also joining us, CNN's financial news correspondent Christine Romans who spends a good deal of her time, her working day dodging the sharp elbows of floor traders on the New York Stock Exchange.
Thank you all for being with us. Susan, tell us quickly what the Boom Boom Room is and give me some examples of this sexual harassment that you talked about because honestly of them when I skimmed your book I was shocked. I don't know why I didn't realize it was so bad, but I was honestly taken a back.
SUSAN ANTILLA, AUTHOR, "BOOM BOOM ROOM": Connie, the Boom Boom Room, it was a basement party room in the Garden City branch, retail branch of Salomon Smith Barney out on Long Island, New York. And if you walked into this room you would see a toilet seat hanging from the ceiling, a rusted old bicycle also hanging from the ceiling. How they did this, I don't know. Old posters up on the wall, a makeshift bar made out of plywood and they had a big garbage pail that they put plastic garbage liners in where they would mix Bloody Marys or whatever the drink was of the day.
CHUNG: So when the brokers went down there, what would they do? Just drink?
ANTILLA: They would drink and party and have potato chips. I mean it wasn't caviar. It was junk food and they would gather there Fridays for a party. CHUNG: Give me some examples, because honestly, when I read them it was beyond my comprehension. I just didn't realize that it would be going on.
ANTILLA: Well, not all of the examples in the book are Salomon Smith Barney.
But in the brokerage industry across the country, women have really been putting up with intolerable situations. There are women who have had their bosses ask them to come into the office and watch them masturbate. There are women who have been putting up with just intolerable situations. Strippers coming into the office, women being asked, receptionists being asked after-hours and would you stay and answer the phones while lesbian strip acts go on. It's just an awful way to work.
CHUNG: Pretty unbelievable. Kathleen, you were harassed.
KATHLEEN KEEGAN, SEXUALLY HARASSED ON WALL STREET: Yes.
CHUNG: What nature did it take on? What was, for instance, the worst incident you could think of.
KEEGAN: The worst incident was one day I went to the funeral of a friend and when I came back I was in the bull pen because I was a relatively new broker and there were only two women in that particular area and the men wrote across the blackboard that "Kathleen gives good" -- with an "h."
CHUNG: OK.
KEEGAN: And this was very typical of behavior that went on all of the time that was addressed to us. We were constantly referred to as whores and sluts and other words that are......
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Anyway; Interview with Nathaniel Osbourne>
Aired November 13, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung. Tonight, Iraq blinks, but is Saddam actually winking at the U.N.?
ANNOUNCER: Iraq accepts the U.N. resolution.
MOHAMMAD ALDOURI, U.N. AMBASSADOR: We are prepared to receive the inspectors within the assigned timetable.
But, the question remains, can Saddam be trusted?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's no negotiations with Mr. Saddam Hussein. Those days are long gone.
ANNOUNCER: The voice on the tape.
If it is Osama bin Laden, where will he strike next?
BUSH: We need to take these messages very seriously.
ANNOUNCER: Exclusive. Nathaniel Osbourne, the man linked to the sniper suspects, now under house arrest. Tonight, for the first time, he tells Connie what he knows about Muhammad and Malvo.
Is Wall Street a man's world? Absolutely, according to one woman who was victimized. Shocking claims of intimidation and sexual harassment.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. Saddam Hussein has said yes to the tough new U.N. resolution calling on Iraq to disarm. Iraq's acceptance comes two days early, ahead of the Friday deadline. Iraq's reluctantly agreed to permit weapons inspectors back into the country and to allow total access.
The U.S. is reacting skeptically, making it clear that Iraq's failure to cooperate fully will almost certainly mean war.
National correspondent Frank Buckley is on the story tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALDOURI: Yes, I did delivered the letter to the office of the Secretary-General.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi Ambassador Mohammad Aldouri confirming that Saddam Hussein and Iraq will comply with the U.N. Security Council resolution. A defiant nine-page letter telling U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, "We are prepared to receive the inspectors within the assigned timetable despite," the letter says, "its bad contents."
Inspectors will prove, say the Iraqis, that Iraq doesn't have any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.
ALDOURI: We tried to explain our position saying that Iraq have and had not and will not have any mass destruction weapons. So we are not worried about the inspectors when they will be back in the country.
BUCKLEY: As the White House digested the letter, U.N. Secretary- General Kofi Annan arrived for a face-to-face meeting with the president, who had pushed the U.N. to be more aggressive with Iraq on inspections.
BUSH: The U.N. stepped up to its responsibilities and I want to thank you for that, Mr. Secretary-General.
BUCKLEY: Mr. Annan emerged from the meeting to say Iraq must now allow inspectors to do their job.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: The issue is not the acceptance, but performance on the ground.
BUCKLEY: The White House shares the view. Earlier in the day, President Bush said that the U.S. will have a zero tolerance policy if inspectors are blocked in any way.
BUSH: I want to remind you all that inspectors are there to determine whether or not Saddam Hussein is willing to disarm. It's his choice to make and should he choose not to disarm, we will disarm him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (on camera): By Monday, the first of the inspectors should be on the ground in Baghdad. By December 8, Iraq is required to give an inventory of all of its weapons programs. If anything is omitted from that list that should be there, according to White House officials, that will be considered a violation and that could trigger a military response -- Connie.
CHUNG: Frank, in the past, the Iraqis have basically obstructed the inspectors. Where do you think the Bush administration is going to draw the line this time around?
BUCKLEY: Well, the U.S. position is pretty clear. The White House saying that there's no room for interpretation. They're not going to play, as they've called it, rope-a-dope in the desert. They say any material breach is a serious material breach. They will immediately take that to the Security Council, engage in the debate in the Security Council. At the same time, retaining the right to act unilaterally or with friends as the president has put it if they feel that military action is required.
CHUNG: All right. Frank Buckley at the White House, thank you.
Are Iraqis breathing a sigh of relief now that Baghdad has accepted the U.N. resolution?
Iraqis saw pictures of a relaxed Saddam Hussein meeting with his top aides before giving the green light to the U.N. resolution. Saddam says he's only complying with the tough U.N. measure to stop a U.S. strike against his country.
We are joined now by CNN's Rym Brahimi in Baghdad. Rym, thank you for being with us.
Do you believe that the Iraqis will react immediately to President Bush's contention that our position is zero tolerance? .
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the fact is, Connie, that they have accepted or at least they've just announced that they've accepted that resolution. And so this would seem to indicate that they are prepared to comply and to cooperate.
Now how far are they prepared to cooperate? They say they will probably -- they say they will cooperate as far as their territorial integrity and the national sovereignty is not touched upon and that's really, really very key and it's going to be key in the weeks and months to come in terms of how the inspectors will be able to do their jobs here.
This is one of the main concerns Iraq has had with the resolution because Iraq has said that the resolution is pull full the pitfalls, that it violates territorial integrity. It violates the national sovereignty and their national security and therefore it's like walking on a minefield, because --because although they're prepared to accept weapons inspectors to come in to prove Iraq says that there are no weapons of mass destruction, well, they're also very wary of how the inspectors will operate on the ground -- Connie.
CHUNG: Rym, was the Iraqi decision a signal in some way to the Arab nations?
BRAHIMI: Well, it was certainly a signal to the Arab nations in terms of responding to the Arab nations' call for Iraq to accept the resolution. Arab countries have been recently calling on Iraq first of all to allow the inspectors back in and this is they did on September 16. They announced they would let the inspectors return to Iraq when the foreign minister was in New York at the U.N. -- at the general assembly there.
And now there's been -- a few days ago there was this foreign minister's meeting in Cairo of the Arab countries and again, they urged Iraq to accept this resolution, Resolution 1441, saying it would ward off the threat of a U.S.-led attack. So they've done this seeing that they were listening to their friends' advice. This is why part of the reason they've accepted this resolution, they say, but of course, they're also saying that they would like the Arab League to monitor, in a way, what's going to happen. They would -- they say they've accepted this, but under the umbrella of the Arab League in a way.
They would like, for instance, Arab experts to accompany the U.N. weapons inspectors -- Connie.
CHUNG: All right. Rym Brahimi, thank you.
Now the question on everyone's mind is why will inspections be different this time around? Iraq says inspectors will be able to search and go anywhere they want, but will Saddam really give them full access?
CNN's U.N. correspondent Richard Roth takes a look at what the new inspection team is likely to face.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After a four- year break, the U.N. inspectors are raring to go.
Chief Inspector Hans Blix will lead a logistical team into Baghdad on November 18 and by early next month, Iraq must provide a complete list of any weapons of mass destruction. Iraq says it doesn't have any. The U.S. says it does.
Inspections will begin soon after, with full deployment by December 23. Blix reports back to the Security Council on what he finds in late February, next year.
While they are in Iraq, call them Inspector Gadget. As they return to Iraq, U.N. weapons inspectors will themselves be armed with new, high tech gear to ferret out any trace of weapons of mass destruction.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: If it is true that there's really no development in the technical devices for inspection, we'll make use of that.
ROTH: Devices, such as this handheld germ analyzer, called the HANNA, developed by the Lawrence Livermore Lab in California.
Bioweapons detection much faster than when inspectors were last inside Iraq.
PAGE STOUTLAND, LAWRENCE LIVERMORE LABORATORY: It's the difference between doing an analysis in an hour or even a day compared to sending samples back to the United States or somewhere elsewhere it might take a day or two or three or a week to return the samples.
ROTH: The inspectors' only way of surveying Iraq while being kept out of the country has been by air, through commercial satellites. Here, a peek at some of Saddam Hussein's palaces. Inspections by air may get a big boost with the potential use of the unmanned predator drone vehicle used by the U.S. in Afghanistan.
JONATHAN TUCKER, FMR U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: No systems can hover for many hours, up to 24 hours over a location and, for example, if there is an inspection under way at a site, they could monitor what is going on.
ROTH: With Iraq saying it has nothing to hide, Arab nations say it would be like trying to prove a negative.
AHMED ABDUL GHEIT, EGYPTIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: The burden on proof comes from the accuser or from that who claims that there is weapons of mass destruction.
ROTH: The inspectors are armed with tougher orders than before. The Security Council resolution says, Go anywhere, any time, including the increasing number of presidential palaces.
(on camera): Once they get there, the question remains what constitutes interference serious enough to trigger a military response?
Richard Roth, CNN, United Nations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: White House officials are downplaying Iraq's acceptance of the resolution. They're saying, We want action, not words. What is it like dealing with the Iraqis and Saddam Hussein?
Well, ambassador Joseph Wilson is the former U.S. charge d'affaires to Iraq. He has exchanged many words with Saddam one-on- one, as acting ambassador to Iraq at the time of the Gulf War. And he joins us from Washington this evening to give us a sense of how Saddam operates.
Thank you, sir, for being with us. Now, you were the last official to meet with Saddam. You negotiated with him. You met with him face-to-face. Does he have a strategy in accepting the U.N. resolution?
JOSEPH WILSON, U.S. CHARGE D'AFFAIRES IN IRAQ: Good evening, Connie. How are you this evening?
CHUNG: Good.
WILSON: As to Saddam's strategy, I think what he's trying to do is figure out a way to slip, once again, the noose that's been put around his neck.
The U.N. resolution pretty much painted him into the corner that he deserves to be in and that, coupled with the president's and Tony Blair's public statements suggest very strongly that there is going to be, as the president quite clearly said, zero tolerance. So one misstep and you face essentially a military response.
CHUNG: Well, do you believe that he has weapons of mass destruction?
WILSON: Oh, I think everybody, the general consensus is he has chemical weapons. He has at a minimum, biological precursors and I'm not sure if he's been able to weaponize them or has any still in stock and he has an active nuclear research and development program.
I don't think there's a lot of debate on that anymore.
CHUNG: Did he not tell you that he would use weapons of mass destruction if he's invaded and if he did say that, are we to believe that he will use weapons of mass destruction once we invade?
WILSON: Tariq Aziz told me explicitly that Iraq reserved the right to use every weapon in its arsenal when invaded. And he said that in the context of the use of using chemicals against Iranians.
Saddam himself alluded very strongly that he would use chemicals and weapons of mass destruction in the event of an invasion. He told me that should the United States try to thwart his conquest of Kuwait, he would spill the blood of 10,000 Americans on the Arabian desert.
CHUNG: Well then just to press you on that, does that actually mean our soldiers, when we invade, if we bomb, but if we also bring our soldiers into that territory -- does that mean that weapons of mass destruction will be used against us?
WILSON: I operate on the assumption and I think most of the military planners are operating on the assumption that the minute our American soldiers set foot on Iraqi territory, he will use every weapon in his arsenal, one. And two, he will draw Israel into a broader war that he can then characterize as an Iraqi "Defense of the Arab nation against the modern day Judeo-Christian crusade."
CHUNG: Now, Saddam does not want, obviously, an uprising and he's trying to portray the Iraqis as victims of the U.S. What are the chances that the Iraqis will cause an uprising against him?
WILSON: I think that's anybody's guess. There are those around here who say that they think we will be welcome as liberators. I'm not exactly sure that's going to be the case.
Clearly, the Iraqis fought fiercely against the Iranians for eight years in the Iran-Iraq war and invading their territory will spur, I believe, their nationalist and patriotic feelings. So it's also absolutely clear that, however they may feel about Saddam, for the last 12 years, they have been told repeatedly that the economic deprivation they have suffered, including having to sell family heirlooms to survive has been caused by the Western and U.S.-imposed economic sanctions.
So even if they don't like Saddam, that does not necessarily translate into warm feelings towards the United States or the West.
CHUNG: Ambassador Wilson, thank you so much for your insight. We appreciate that. And...
WILSON: My pleasure.
And still ahead: he's the mystery figure in the D.C. sniper story. The co-owner of the alleged sniper's Chevy Caprice. Still ahead, Nathaniel Osbourne sits down for his first television interview.
ANNOUNCER: Next, a chilling audiotape, almost certainly the voice of bin Laden.
BUSH: Whoever put this tape out had put the world on notice yet again that we're at war.
ANNOUNCER: What's next in the five against terrorism? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: The White House is taking the frightening new message almost certainly from Osama bin Laden very seriously. President Bush spoke to reporters about the chilling tape at a cabinet meeting this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The message is a serious message and it reminds -- should remind all Americans and remind our friends and allies that there is a active enemy that continues to hate, is willing to use murder as a way to achieve their goals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: As we've been reporting, American intelligence officials think the recording was made within the last few weeks. Those officials also say the voice on the tape is almost certainly that of bin Laden.
But they are still working to determine whether the tape itself may be a fabrication, pieced together either through computer generation or splicing.
Now, the message on the tape praises a string of recent terror attacks and for the first time, directly threatens the U.S. and its allies.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So why are your governments allying themselves with America in attacking us in Afghanistan? especially to mention Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen joins me now from our Washington bureau. Always good to have you, Peter. Help us analyze this tape and what it may mean.
The -- Osama bin Laden is clearly warning U.S. allies. What is his goal in doing so?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it might be twofold.
I mean, for a start, he's very specific. For instance, he talked about the Bali blast that killed 180 people, mostly Australians and he specifically says, you know, we targeted it because of Australia's presence in the war in Afghanistan and that was kind of our revenge and then he lists a laundry list of other countries: Canada, Italy, Germany, Britain and France, which he's also calling for attacks against. He's trying to energize people to do these attacks or he's sort of preparing people for the fact these attacks are going to occur.
We've seen attacks on a French oil tanker in Yemen. His No. 2 has also made references to attacks on Germans and French people around the world.
So this is an organization that was kind of more narrowly devoted to attacking Americans, but is now actually looking to move to attack not only Americans, but any Westerner.
CHUNG: We all heard what President Bush said and, quite frankly, it's a bit frightening. Are we to expect a terrorist attack here on our shores?
BERGEN: Well, I think that you can safely predict that we can expect a terrorist attack against a Western target, somewhere in the world very soon because bin Laden's statements are a good guide to his action.
Does that mean they'll be attacking the United States? Yes. That's -- you know, it's hard to tell. It's much easier to attack, let's say, an American business somewhere in the Middle East than it is, probably, to attack -- launch an attack inside the United States.
I'd say if you were running a company like a McDonald's or a Kentucky Fried, some very obvious symbol of America in a country like Pakistan, you should be considering your security measures, because bin Laden is very specifically calling for attacks on economic targets, not in this tape, but this tape authenticates a tape that we saw two weeks ago that didn't get much attention.
CHUNG: Why didn't that get much attention? Was it was played in Al-Jazeera?
BERGEN: It didn't get much attention because it could have been a cut and splice job. It really could have been, because it didn't have any of the specific time references that we have in this tape. This tape has about ten different references that make it very clear that -- it references the attack in Bali, it references the attack in Kuwait. It -- all these kinds of recent attacks.
The previous tape didn't really mention these attacks, but it did call for attacks on economic targets, and Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden's number two, right at the same time, also called for attacks on economic targets, and I think that the future plan is to attack economic targets because economic targets are ubiquitous.
American government buildings, embassies, and military bases around the world are quite secure, they're relatively hard targets. A disco in Bali is, by definition, a very soft target, very easy to attack.
CHUNG: And when you say economic targets, is that why you mentioned, for instance, a McDonald's or a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Pakistan, those are the economic targets that you are suggesting?
BERGEN: I mean, I don't want to single those companies out...
CHUNG: Yes, I understand.
BERGEN: But I do think that when both bin Laden and his number two say, We're going to attack American economic targets, that means that American economic targets will be targeted.
The question is where. It's impossible to tell, but I think that it is easier to attack American economic targets outside the United States than within the United States. Obviously, al Qaeda would like to attack within the United States, but the attacks we've seen so far, the one in Yemen against an oil tanker that happened to be French, and against the disco in Bali, the ones we've seen recently have been outside the United States.
CHUNG: All right. Tell us what you think of the timing. I mean, is that crucial, that it was released now, and also the length of the tape, and the fact that it wasn't a videotape?
BERGEN: Well, the fact that it wasn't a videotape is interesting. Maybe -- that could be for several reasons. One is, bin Laden may be in very poor health and may not want to reveal it.
Two, he may have adopted a disguise. Three, he may be concerned that -- some of these videotapes, you are able to tell where they're shot because of the background, you at least have some notion of where they are shot.
The other thing, the reason the tape may have been so short, perhaps he is in such poor health, that that is all he can manage, because previous tapes we have seen from him have been up to half and hour, 45 minutes.
But the timing right now is kind of brilliant in a way, because we're right at this crisis point with Iraq, whether it's -- the passage through the United Nations, Iraq's acceptance of the United Nations resolution. This comes at a very delicate moment in the history of the Middle East. Bin Laden is interested in stirring this up. I'm not saying that he's a fan of Saddam Hussein, because he isn't, but certainly he's very provoked by the U.N. sanctions that have -- by the U.N.'s own numbers, have killed 500,000 Iraqi children. I'm not blaming the U.N. for that, I'm blaming Saddam's noncompliance, but the fact is that a lot of civilians have died as a result of these sanctions, and a lot of civilians will die in a future war.
So bin Laden is releasing this tape at a moment which is propitious for him, in terms of playing on the kind of intense emotions that are generated by a possible war against Iraq within the Middle East.
CHUNG: Peter Bergen, thank you. Always good to talk to you.
Coming up, my exclusive interview with the man the police, at one point called a material witness to the sniper shootings.
ANNOUNCER: Next, what does it take to defend two of the country's most hated suspects?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is crucial in this case that this -- these matters be tried in the courtroom, not on the steps of a courthouse or in front of a courthouse.
ANNOUNCER: Muhammad and Malvo, on the defense. When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As we continue to learn bits and pieces about the sniper suspects, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, the story becomes more and more disturbing.
Tonight, we're going to hear from a man who encountered both of them, not for very long, but long enough. We've heard a great deal about Nathaniel Osbourne. He had the incredible misfortune of helping Muhammad buy the car allegedly used in the Washington-area sniper shootings.
When police made the link, Osbourne was picked up as a material witness in the sniper case, and put in federal custody for a grueling week, and then released, but he still remains under house arrest.
Just a short time ago, I spoke with him at the home where he remains confined in an exclusive interview about how one very small decision turned his life upside down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: What has your life been like since John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo were arrested?
NATHANIEL OSBOURNE, MATERIAL WITNESS: You know, I've experienced something that I've never experienced before, you know? I've never been handcuffed and shackled by my feet.
CHUNG: Handcuffed and shackled?
OSBOURNE: Shackled on my hands, chains around my waist. You know, I was in there just very much like a common criminal, you know?
CHUNG: Did they tell you why they were here in New Jersey and what they were doing?
OSBOURNE: Very much, I wasn't the person who they came by to see. Mr. Muhammad really had come by to spend a day or two with, as it was told to me, and my brother, you know? And I really took this stance where with I should have, where with they weren't my visitors, but I tried to be, you know, be as hospitable as I could with them, you know?
CHUNG: So you were basically very friendly. They were your brother's friends.
OSBOURNE: Yes, you know, I just treated them like what my brother would practically treat them, you know?
CHUNG: Now, on only the second day that you met them, you took John Muhammad to help him buy a car. Why did you do that?
OSBOURNE: Very much Mr. Muhammad was away for a couple hours and I was told by the younger, Lee, that they were interested in a car. Very much, I won't lie to you. I -- I bought a car, and I knew where cheap cars were.
CHUNG: I think what people can't understand is why would you sign yourself on as a co-owner and help these people you didn't even know buy a car.
OSBOURNE: I said to myself, if that's all that they needed, you know, I would help them to get it.
It wasn't nothing difficult for me because that's the kind of person I am, very much, you know? I honestly, I've done numerous -- I helped the people across the street from me. If they wanted to go somewhere, I'd take them.
CHUNG: Did you find anything unusual about the room that they were staying in or how they were living when they were living with your -- in that house?
OSBOURNE: They had put a bigger lock -- the big silver lock on the door.
CHUNG: Now looking back, do you think they were hiding something in there?
OSBOURNE: They just might be, but, you know, all that there was that lock and very much -- it could have been that they were hiding something, but I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell.
CHUNG: Did John Muhammad seem to you as being an angry person or a violent person?
OSBOURNE: I tell you, honestly, I wasn't in calculation of his personality to that depth to really what -- what the normal state of him was just like a practical man.
But, you know, I took interest in only the part of him where he was health conscious. And I like health things and he had protein capsules and all kinds of stuff. He talked about health and he had even a book that I was a little bit interested in that had a lot to do with health, you know?
CHUNG: What about John Malvo? What did you think of him? The 17-year-old boy.
OSBOURNE: When I spoke to him he was telling me about, you know, he wanted to get into aviation, you know? I asked him about school and all that and we spoke about Jamaica, you know?
CHUNG: Because you're from Jamaica.
OSBOURNE: I'm from Jamaica and he was very much -- he's a very intelligent guy, you know? And, honestly, he spoke even of his dad, you know, that actually his dad was like the best thing that topped him, you know?
CHUNG: John Muhammad.
OSBOURNE: Yes.
CHUNG: What were your impressions, because as you probably now know John Lee Malvo was basically abandoned by his mother and was living by his own when John Muhammad found hum.
OSBOURNE: Yes, very much, what I realized it was up to Mr. Muhammad, you know?
CHUNG: Would you say that he worshipped him?
OSBOURNE: Worshipped -- very much, he was the only example he had, you know?
CHUNG: After they were arrested, was that the first indication, the first bit of knowledge that you had that they were in indeed suspected of being the snipers?
OSBOURNE: Honestly, I was shocked when I saw them on TV that Tuesday, you know? I couldn't believe it, you know? Honestly...
CHUNG: And when you discovered that the car that they were arrested in was in fact that Chevy Caprice.
OSBOURNE: That all came to me because, you know, that all came to me that I had helped him with the car and, you know, out of kindness of my heart I did that.
CHUNG: Honestly?
OSBOURNE: From the bottom of my heart, from the kindness of my heart I did that towards him because I can tell you, today, none of them which can say they never offered me a dollar.
CHUNG: Looking back, is it so obvious to you that you never should have bought that car with John Muhammad? Or would you do it again?
OSBOURNE: Honestly, if I could erase this all idea, I would, you know?
CHUNG: Knows that that car was allegedly the sniper's nest.
OSBOURNE: And as I heard that, you know, very much all I have to say, you know, it's a tragedy, you know? It should have never happened, you know, a man's heart should have never been like that to, you know, conceive such a -- such thoughts, you know. Conceived to do such things and I -- I -- my heart goes out to the victims, you know. The victims' families, it's -- I know it's hard thing to swallow and am very much -- I only hope that, you know, that that God will comfort them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Again, Nathaniel Osbourne at his home in New Jersey. He remains under house arrest and he says at this point he doesn't know why.
He says he had no knowledge of what those two men, the alleged suspected snipers were going to do when they left New Jersey. He also says that he wanted to -- he wants to create a school in Jamaica because as he met with Malvo, he realized that here's a young man who he thought, this is Osbourne talking he thought that Malvo was the kind of person whose life could have changed had he not been uneducated and left alone, basically orphaned.
So this young man, Nathaniel Osbourne, 26-year-old -- 26 years old says he wants to start a school in his country, in Jamaica, to be able to take teenagers who are lost and unable to get an education and to help them out.
Meantime, an eerie new photo has been released of sniper suspect John Muhammad from his time in the National Guard. Long before the former soldier was arrested as a serial killer. Muhammad made a very brief court appearance in Prince William County, Virginia, this morning. He was told to return in about a month and a trial date might be set.
Muhammad was assigned a new high profile defense team. That team will be led by Peter Greenspun, a defense attorney with impressive credentials. And Greenspun has wasted no time going on the attack accusing police of trying to taint a potential jury by leaking information. CNN's Patty Davis looks at the sniper defense.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sniper suspects case has generated massive publicity, at least 12 dead in a string of shootings from Montgomery, Alabama, to Washington, D.C.
John Lee Malvo and John Muhammad could face the death penalty in Virginia. Muhammad's court-appointed attorney is urging the public to keep an open mind. PETER GREENSPUN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is crucial in this case that these matters be tried in the courtroom, not on the steps of a courthouse.
DAVIS: Forty-nine-year-old Peter Greenspun is a high-profile criminal defense lawyer, known for his aggressive style and drama in the courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there's something there either legally or factually and if he has the resources he will find it and he will exploit it.
DAVIS: Greenspun defended sports broadcaster Marv Albert against charges of forcible sodomy, which ended with Albert pleading guilty to a misdemeanor. He's also handled his share of death penalty cases.
Wednesday the court beefed up Muhammad's defense team, appointing another well-known lawyer, Jonathan Shapiro. His latest case, trying to keep Brian Regan (ph), an alleged spy, off death row.
ANDREW WHITE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: With Mr. Muhammad, if the -- if the forensic evidence holds true, it's a very difficult defense.
DAVIS: It will also be a difficult defense for 17-year-old John Lee Malvo, who a source says told investigators he pulled the trigger in some of the sniper shootings.
Malvo's court-appointed lawyer, Michael Arif says he'll move to have the statements thrown out since Malvo didn't have a lawyer present during the interrogation.
MICHAEL ARIF, MALVO DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don't think you're going to have a confession for something he didn't do. At this point we're pleading not guilty. That's the intent. That's the plan. We're going to trial.
DAVIS: In the courtroom, the 51-year-old criminal defense attorney is not considered as flashy as Greenspun, but just as effective. He's known for his subdued style and focus juvenile cases. Arif has also had numerous death penalty cases.
CHANDRA KINSEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He's a compassionate person who, in my opinion, has the ability to shed light on the human element of the accused.
DAVIS (voice-over): As for their strategy, the defense lawyers aren't talking. Legal experts say they'll need to attack the forensic evidence and keep Malvo's statements out of court in order to plant reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors.
Patty Davis, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next, claims of intimidation and sexual harassment on Wall Street. One woman's alarming accusations when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Let's face it. Wall Street isn't just about money. It's about sex. Sex and power and it's about conquest, taking the big risks, winning the big prize. For decades, it was a man's world and when women entered that world, a lot of men didn't like it.
Now a new book has exposed some of the widespread misbehavior, harassment and, worse. We'll meet the author and a woman who suffered through all of that in just a bit, but first, we've asked financial news correspondent Christine Romans to look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wall Street has long been a man's world, from the days of suits and cigars, an aggressive rough-and-tumble boy's club.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's too much.
ROMANS: Muriel Siebert (ph) knows that better than anyone, she broke the gender barrier 35 years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I bought a seat December 28, 1967 and, you know, when you're the first person to break a tradition that's 175 years old, not everybody's going to love you.
ROMANS: It wasn't easy for Siebert and for many women on Wall Street, it still isn't. Consider this survey: one in three Wall Street women say sexual harassment exists at their firms. Two out of three think they work harder to get the same rewards as men.
And what do men think? Thirteen percent reported a climate of sexual harassment against women, but 27 percent of Wall Street men fear reverse discrimination.
JANET HANSON, FOUNDER, 85 BROADS: People always ask the question is wall street a culture that is hospitable or hostile to women? And I really think it's very much what do you want to make it.
ROMANS: Clearly, some women are making it. The days of working golf excursions, no women allowed, are mostly gone. So, too, are the strippers.
ALEXANDRA LEBENTHAL, PRES. & CEO, LEBENTHAL & CO.: I do remember in the first days of my career, not at Lebanthal, when it was completely normal on a weekly basis to see a stripper walk into the trading floor for somebody's birthday.
ROMANS: Wall Street lawsuits in the late 1990s caught main street's attention. Four years ago Salomon Smith Barney settled the notorious Boom Boom Room case, spending $15 million on diversity training and more female managers.
Merrill Lynch has settled nearly all of the gender discrimination claims brought against it in a 1998 class action. A sex discrimination lawsuit against Morgan Stanley Dean Witter is still pending.
ROMANS: Muriel Siebert concedes there is legal progress, but not true equality.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It won't happen until the senior people at the major firms make a decided -- a determination that we are going to promote women.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: CNN's Christine Romans, she'll be with us in a moment along with one of the women she mentioned who will tell her shocking story about what happened to her on the job. It wasn't pretty. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: In the '90s, tales of widespread sexual scandal and discrimination against women began to surface on Wall Street. Stories of abusive x-rated language and routine lewd behavior by male stockbrokers and executives.
Kathleen Keegan worked for Smith Barney where she claims she was sexually harassed. Journalist Susan Antilla heard the stories of the men behaving badly and put them into her book, "Tales From the Boom Boom Room."
Also joining us, CNN's financial news correspondent Christine Romans who spends a good deal of her time, her working day dodging the sharp elbows of floor traders on the New York Stock Exchange.
Thank you all for being with us. Susan, tell us quickly what the Boom Boom Room is and give me some examples of this sexual harassment that you talked about because honestly of them when I skimmed your book I was shocked. I don't know why I didn't realize it was so bad, but I was honestly taken a back.
SUSAN ANTILLA, AUTHOR, "BOOM BOOM ROOM": Connie, the Boom Boom Room, it was a basement party room in the Garden City branch, retail branch of Salomon Smith Barney out on Long Island, New York. And if you walked into this room you would see a toilet seat hanging from the ceiling, a rusted old bicycle also hanging from the ceiling. How they did this, I don't know. Old posters up on the wall, a makeshift bar made out of plywood and they had a big garbage pail that they put plastic garbage liners in where they would mix Bloody Marys or whatever the drink was of the day.
CHUNG: So when the brokers went down there, what would they do? Just drink?
ANTILLA: They would drink and party and have potato chips. I mean it wasn't caviar. It was junk food and they would gather there Fridays for a party. CHUNG: Give me some examples, because honestly, when I read them it was beyond my comprehension. I just didn't realize that it would be going on.
ANTILLA: Well, not all of the examples in the book are Salomon Smith Barney.
But in the brokerage industry across the country, women have really been putting up with intolerable situations. There are women who have had their bosses ask them to come into the office and watch them masturbate. There are women who have been putting up with just intolerable situations. Strippers coming into the office, women being asked, receptionists being asked after-hours and would you stay and answer the phones while lesbian strip acts go on. It's just an awful way to work.
CHUNG: Pretty unbelievable. Kathleen, you were harassed.
KATHLEEN KEEGAN, SEXUALLY HARASSED ON WALL STREET: Yes.
CHUNG: What nature did it take on? What was, for instance, the worst incident you could think of.
KEEGAN: The worst incident was one day I went to the funeral of a friend and when I came back I was in the bull pen because I was a relatively new broker and there were only two women in that particular area and the men wrote across the blackboard that "Kathleen gives good" -- with an "h."
CHUNG: OK.
KEEGAN: And this was very typical of behavior that went on all of the time that was addressed to us. We were constantly referred to as whores and sluts and other words that are......
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Anyway; Interview with Nathaniel Osbourne>
