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American Morning
Interview With Bob Graham
Aired November 20, 2002 - 07:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now back to our other top story this morning: homeland security. The bill to create the huge new department was approved overwhelmingly last night by the Senate 90-9. The new cabinet-level department will be called on to secure America's borders, ports and airports. It will bring together 22 agencies and 170,000 workers, but it is expected to take months, if not years to set it up.
So, in the meantime, will it make the country any safer from terrorism, and if so, when?
Democratic Senator Bob Graham, chairman of the Intelligence Committee, joins us now from the Capitol Rotunda in Washington.
Welcome back, Senator -- glad to have you with us this morning.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), CHMN, INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: So, Senator, I think what most Americans want to know is how this department will make them any less vulnerable than they are right now.
GRAHAM: When it's fully in place, it will make us stronger and more secure, because it will bring together under one head with a common program and plan of action, a set of rules and procedures, less opportunity for information to be dropped between agencies -- the 22 agencies that have the greatest contribution to our domestic security.
The problem, as you indicated, is that there's going to be a transition period. For instance, we have the Coast Guard, one of the oldest agencies in the United States government, which had been under the Treasury, more recently under the Department of Transportation, is now going to shift to the Department of Homeland Security.
There will inevitably be a time of learning who your new partners are, what the new rules and expectations are. And during that transition time, we may actually see some degree of lessened domestic security.
ZAHN: Well, let me ask you about that, because I think what the comptroller, General David Walker, said pretty much mirrored your concern at the end there. He directs the General Accounting Office. And he said -- quote -- "If it is not handled properly, we could be at increased risk."
GRAHAM: Yes, and unfortunately, this is coming at a time when our threat level also is going to go up. The intelligence community has said that when Saddam Hussein is under attack, when he is about to be toppled from power, that's when he becomes the most dangerous, including forming alliances with international terrorist groups to attack inside the United States.
So, we're going to have to be very careful as we make this transition that we not lower our guard at the exact time that we may be facing a renewed wave of terrorist threats.
ZAHN: Well, help us understand then, as the government tries to analyze this increased threat and as they use the intelligence, what kind of a challenge it represents when you're trying to bring so many different agencies while you're doing both of these tasks.
GRAHAM: Well, I personally think that you've got to operate both on the defensive and the offensive. We need to try to secure our homeland to the maximum extent possible and avoid any unnecessary disruption during this time of change.
We also need to be on the offensive. We've learned that these international terrorists who are sleeping among us get their financial support, their logistical support, they get their ultimate command to take action from abroad, from the headquarters. They also -- new recruits come through these training camps and some of them end up in the United States.
So, we need to have an aggressive attack against international terrorists -- al Qaeda, Hezbollah -- other groups that have the capacity to threaten us here at home, so that we can disable their abilities before they can attack.
ZAHN: It's pretty chilling to hear what you just said when you talked about the international terrorists "sleeping among us." And I know in "The New York Times" over the weekend, you were quoted as saying this: "I think we make a big mistake when we assume the threat is only from al Qaeda. There are a lot of terror groups out there, some of them with a large presence in the United States, who shouldn't be dismissed because in the past, they have not attacked in the United States."
Are you suggesting that Hezbollah, for example, has sleeper cells already here in the United States?
GRAHAM: Absolutely, and no doubt larger than in number than al Qaeda. Because al Qaeda was the international terrorist group that hit us on September 11, we've focused most of our attention on that one organization.
The experts in the area of terrorism will say almost unanimously that Hezbollah is the A team of international terrorists. They're one of the older organizations, up until September 11 had killed more Americans than any other terrorist group. They have strong ties with Iran, and therefore, access not only to Iranian money, but also to the weapons of mass destruction, which Iran possesses, which are larger in quantity than those in Iraq. ZAHN: Senator, let me ask you this then. How successful has the U.S. been in trying to penetrate these groups that you think already exist in the United States?
GRAHAM: The answer is, I don't know. I don't think anybody else does, but I'm not optimistic.
We've been asking the principal federal agency with responsibility for internal terrorism suppression, the FBI, how many of these groups are there? And how many operatives do they have? What are the skills that the people who have been placed in the United States possess? Have we been able to penetrate some of these cells in order to learn their intentions, and if so, what are their intentions? The answer is, we don't know any information on virtually all of those subjects.
I think we need to be accelerating our pace of learning as much as we can, and then with that information, put these people in jail where we can do that, deport them where we can do that, put them under surveillance where we can't do either of the above. And we need to be launching an aggressive assault against the headquarters and the training camps of these organizations, generally in the Middle East or Central Asia, so that they cannot be supporting their agents that are already here and supplying freshly-trained terrorists from their camps.
ZAHN: Senator, we've just got 10 seconds left. Do you think any American should find this acceptable that this is the case?
GRAHAM: No, I do not think it's acceptable, and I hope that the recognition is awakening upon the key people in these agencies that we've only got about 60 days now if this war is going to start in January to get prepared and reduce the threat level against the people of the United States at the very time that we also are reorganizing the department that is intended to secure our people.
ZAHN: Senator Bob Graham, we're going to have to leave it there on that depressing note this morning.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
ZAHN: Thank you again for joining us.
GRAHAM: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired November 20, 2002 - 07:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now back to our other top story this morning: homeland security. The bill to create the huge new department was approved overwhelmingly last night by the Senate 90-9. The new cabinet-level department will be called on to secure America's borders, ports and airports. It will bring together 22 agencies and 170,000 workers, but it is expected to take months, if not years to set it up.
So, in the meantime, will it make the country any safer from terrorism, and if so, when?
Democratic Senator Bob Graham, chairman of the Intelligence Committee, joins us now from the Capitol Rotunda in Washington.
Welcome back, Senator -- glad to have you with us this morning.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), CHMN, INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: So, Senator, I think what most Americans want to know is how this department will make them any less vulnerable than they are right now.
GRAHAM: When it's fully in place, it will make us stronger and more secure, because it will bring together under one head with a common program and plan of action, a set of rules and procedures, less opportunity for information to be dropped between agencies -- the 22 agencies that have the greatest contribution to our domestic security.
The problem, as you indicated, is that there's going to be a transition period. For instance, we have the Coast Guard, one of the oldest agencies in the United States government, which had been under the Treasury, more recently under the Department of Transportation, is now going to shift to the Department of Homeland Security.
There will inevitably be a time of learning who your new partners are, what the new rules and expectations are. And during that transition time, we may actually see some degree of lessened domestic security.
ZAHN: Well, let me ask you about that, because I think what the comptroller, General David Walker, said pretty much mirrored your concern at the end there. He directs the General Accounting Office. And he said -- quote -- "If it is not handled properly, we could be at increased risk."
GRAHAM: Yes, and unfortunately, this is coming at a time when our threat level also is going to go up. The intelligence community has said that when Saddam Hussein is under attack, when he is about to be toppled from power, that's when he becomes the most dangerous, including forming alliances with international terrorist groups to attack inside the United States.
So, we're going to have to be very careful as we make this transition that we not lower our guard at the exact time that we may be facing a renewed wave of terrorist threats.
ZAHN: Well, help us understand then, as the government tries to analyze this increased threat and as they use the intelligence, what kind of a challenge it represents when you're trying to bring so many different agencies while you're doing both of these tasks.
GRAHAM: Well, I personally think that you've got to operate both on the defensive and the offensive. We need to try to secure our homeland to the maximum extent possible and avoid any unnecessary disruption during this time of change.
We also need to be on the offensive. We've learned that these international terrorists who are sleeping among us get their financial support, their logistical support, they get their ultimate command to take action from abroad, from the headquarters. They also -- new recruits come through these training camps and some of them end up in the United States.
So, we need to have an aggressive attack against international terrorists -- al Qaeda, Hezbollah -- other groups that have the capacity to threaten us here at home, so that we can disable their abilities before they can attack.
ZAHN: It's pretty chilling to hear what you just said when you talked about the international terrorists "sleeping among us." And I know in "The New York Times" over the weekend, you were quoted as saying this: "I think we make a big mistake when we assume the threat is only from al Qaeda. There are a lot of terror groups out there, some of them with a large presence in the United States, who shouldn't be dismissed because in the past, they have not attacked in the United States."
Are you suggesting that Hezbollah, for example, has sleeper cells already here in the United States?
GRAHAM: Absolutely, and no doubt larger than in number than al Qaeda. Because al Qaeda was the international terrorist group that hit us on September 11, we've focused most of our attention on that one organization.
The experts in the area of terrorism will say almost unanimously that Hezbollah is the A team of international terrorists. They're one of the older organizations, up until September 11 had killed more Americans than any other terrorist group. They have strong ties with Iran, and therefore, access not only to Iranian money, but also to the weapons of mass destruction, which Iran possesses, which are larger in quantity than those in Iraq. ZAHN: Senator, let me ask you this then. How successful has the U.S. been in trying to penetrate these groups that you think already exist in the United States?
GRAHAM: The answer is, I don't know. I don't think anybody else does, but I'm not optimistic.
We've been asking the principal federal agency with responsibility for internal terrorism suppression, the FBI, how many of these groups are there? And how many operatives do they have? What are the skills that the people who have been placed in the United States possess? Have we been able to penetrate some of these cells in order to learn their intentions, and if so, what are their intentions? The answer is, we don't know any information on virtually all of those subjects.
I think we need to be accelerating our pace of learning as much as we can, and then with that information, put these people in jail where we can do that, deport them where we can do that, put them under surveillance where we can't do either of the above. And we need to be launching an aggressive assault against the headquarters and the training camps of these organizations, generally in the Middle East or Central Asia, so that they cannot be supporting their agents that are already here and supplying freshly-trained terrorists from their camps.
ZAHN: Senator, we've just got 10 seconds left. Do you think any American should find this acceptable that this is the case?
GRAHAM: No, I do not think it's acceptable, and I hope that the recognition is awakening upon the key people in these agencies that we've only got about 60 days now if this war is going to start in January to get prepared and reduce the threat level against the people of the United States at the very time that we also are reorganizing the department that is intended to secure our people.
ZAHN: Senator Bob Graham, we're going to have to leave it there on that depressing note this morning.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
ZAHN: Thank you again for joining us.
GRAHAM: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
