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CNN Crossfire

Is Bush Too Focused on Iraq That He's Ignoring Other Issues?; McDonald's Hit With Another Lawsuit

Aired November 21, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: he goes to a NATO summit and talks Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My expectation is, is that we can do this peacefully if Saddam Hussein disarms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is the president too focused on the man in Baghdad? Al Gore thinks so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL GORE, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I think that was a serious mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNER: Are you listening to Rush Limbaugh? Tom Daschle says right wing talk radio is more than hot air. It's making America dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: The threats to those of us in public life go up dramatically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And, hold the pickles, hold the lettuce. A brand new lawsuit may upset us. The Big Mac legal attack.

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: James Carville and Robert Novak.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, Rush Limbaugh can dish it out. So why can't he take a little criticism? And McDonald's been dishing out fat and calories for years. So why are they surprised that some overweight customers are upset? But first, the sweetest part of the day, and we guarantee it's non- fattening. Here comes our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: The U.S. government disclosed the capture of al Qaeda's chief of operations in the Persian Gulf, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the suspected mastermind of the USS Cole bombing. He was taken in an undisclosed foreign country earlier this month. He is now in U.S. custody and is called a high-ranking al Qaeda operative.

This good news for America is bad news for Democrats. With Democrats admitting they lost the midterm elections because they had no message, Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle, after the election, accused President Bush of losing the war against terrorism. With Al Gore lightly echoing that message. Now it's clear they just have no idea what's going on.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: No, Bob. Because you all don't have any idea what's going on. You think you catch one guy and you've destroyed al Qaeda, you're wrong. This homeland security thing, as Senator Rudman pointed out, is ill funded. And we're not making the progress we need to make on this war and we'll talk about it later.

NOVAK: Warren Rudman has been attacking (ph) his own Republicans for years. But I'll tell you...

CARVILLE: And George Schultz is on that committee and he's not a very good Republican either.

NOVAK: No he isn't a very good Republican.

CARVILLE: OK, fine. You know what, they're good Americans and that's the important thing here. And you're more interested in being a good Republican than in being a good American.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I'll tell you this. If you think that's the answer to getting back into the favor of the American people, to attack the president on terrorism, you're silly.

CARVILLE: Yeah, I do. I don't think we've done a very good job. Ebenezer Scrooge would love this. Three days after Christmas, nearly one million Americans stand to lose unemployment benefits. Their only hope is a one-day special session of the House of Representatives scheduled for tomorrow. But the benefits bill has been stalled.

The "Wall Street Journal" reports that House and Senate Republicans can't agree on some extra goodies the House tacked onto it designed to protect the Bush administration from lawsuits over the way it pays doctors for Medicare. Unemployed people don't have the money for lawsuits and lobbyists, and if Congress can't get its act together they won't have money for food. Merry Christmas.

NOVAK: Wait a minute, James. Let me say a word. I want to say something the politicians of neither party will say is, you extend those unemployment benefits, and it discourages people from going out and looking for a job.

CARVILLE: You know what they need to do the unemployment people, they need to give these drug companies more benefits, we need to take on these (UNINTELLIGIBLE) kids that are suffering for this. We need to take on the little people, because that's what you all love to do.

You hate little people. You hate the unemployed. You hate poor children. You hate all the little people of the world. You love big people.

NOVAK: I'm not talking about little people. I'm talking about the trial lawyers.

CARVILLE: What are you talking about?

NOVAK: That's all the trial lawyers.

CARVILLE: What is it about -- why do you like the approval of power, Bob? Why is it so necessary to you?

NOVAK: At the NATO summit in Prague, the Canadian delegation viciously attacked President Bush. During a Canadian briefing for reporters, an official said of the American president, "What a moron." The Canadian press is not disclosing this official's identified, but I will. It was Prime Minister Jean Chretien's spokeswoman and communications director, Francine Ducros. No apology yet.

The Canadians are in an uproar because the Americans are urging them to boost defense spending. Canada ranks third from the bottom among NATO countries in military spending. Ahead only of Luxembourg and of Iceland, which does not even have a military. Canada should be ashamed of itself.

CARVILLE: I think Canadians are pretty proud people. I actually like Canada, I like Canadians. Just like I like France and I like French people and everybody else. You right wingers, you all hate poor people, you hate children, you hate Canadians, you hate Frenchmen. You hate everything. What the hell do you like other than rich people?

NOVAK: I'll tell you what...

CARVILLE: Other than rich people, who do you like?

NOVAK: If you liked the weenie Canadians so much why don't you go there? Why don't you go there?

CARVILLE: I go there all the time. I love Canadians. I go to England. I like the British.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: You'd probably like Iraq if you went there, too. CARVILLE: No, I wouldn't like Iraq. But I sure -- I got an office in Britain. I've got an office in Tel Aviv. I love the Israelis, too. You don't like the Israelis. I do.

They gave away office space in a lottery today for the incoming members of -- the 53 incoming members of the House of Representatives. But is this really a big deal? The difference between picking first and picking last can be an office five minutes away from the Capitol building as opposed to a 15-minute hike.

And guess who's name was drawn first, none other than Florida's freshman Republican Katherine Harris. When asked her boss' reaction, Harris' chief of staff crowed, "No recount required, no chads involved."

Katherine Harris got where she is today by pure dumb luck and by being against recounts. Well, nothing's changed.

NOVAK: Well, I'll tell you something. You remember on election night when you left wingers were pedaling this gossip, we're going to beat Katherine Harris. This is a big chad going against it. I'm going to tell you. You're going to have to live with her. She's going to be here for a long time. And she'll probably outlast you.

CARVILLE: But if they had a makeup lottery, I know she'd win that. I guarantee you that.

NOVAK: Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu running for re-election in Louisiana's December 7th runoff has a dilemma. She must do better with black voters while not diminishing her white support. So she does a dance. Being one of three democratic senators to support House Republican amendments to the homeland security bill, then voting against confirmation of Judge Dennis Shed (ph), a white conservative targeted by black pressure groups.

Enough to appease Louisiana blacks? Not for many, such as state Senator Tom Cravens, who told "The Washington Times" he can't forget Senator Landrieu bragging how much she supports George W. Bush. James, it is just hard to be a southern Democrat these days.

CARVILLE: You know, it's hard for you to understand that there actually are people that would like to get white votes and black votes at the same time. And white folks and black folks can get together and vote for the same campaign. In the wedge issues that you right wingers like, you like to divide white people and black people and I like to bring them together. I think we all ought to be part of the same dumb bowl as we say in Louisiana.

NOVAK: But she's losing on both...

CARVILLE: Everybody knows that the Fox News Channel is merely a wing of the Republican Party, and its viewers use it the same way a drunk uses a lamp post, for support, not illumination. So I really don't understand why there's such a big uproar over the disclosure that Fox News President Roger Ailes sends advice to President Bush. Who did you expect him to send notes to, Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy? As for "The New York Times" editorial talking about it today, well the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is just showing naivete. Getting upset about a Republican network is the same about being shocked that there's gambling in Casablanca.

NOVAK: James, you've got a point. You know I didn't criticize when the president of CNN spent the night in the Lincoln bedroom at the White House under Bill Clinton. So I won't criticize Roger Ailes either.

CARVILLE: I'm just saying that I'm not criticizing. Of course it's a Republican network. And what's the big deal here? Why is everybody all bent out of shape about it?

NOVAK: Still to come, a whole lot of democratic whining. Something they're very good at. Al Gore doesn't think the president can handle more than one international bad guy at a time. And Senator Tom Daschle can't seem to handle Rush Limbaugh at all.

But if you're good and sit through all of that, we promise to take you to McDonald's.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Senior administration officials confirm to CNN that al Qaeda's top operations chief for the Persian Gulf has been captured. The guy's the suspected mastermind of the USS Cole attack and was probably on the U.S. embassy bombings in Africa, as well.

Suppose this will stop Al Gore and his fellow whining Democrats from complaining that the Bush administration has forgotten the war on terrorism? Not a chance.

In the CROSSFIRE are retired Air Force Colonel and former Clinton administration National Security Council Spokesman P.J. Crowley. And with him is Republican Congressman and now Senator-elect from Georgia, congratulations, Saxby Chambliss.

CARVILLE: Let me -- let me start out, Senator Chablis, a question I asked Senator McCain, and that is, what sacrifice has this president caused on us as Americans to make since we started this war on terrorism?

SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA SENATOR-ELECT: What sacrifice has he called on us to make?

CARVILLE: Well, how has he challenged us as a nation?

CHAMBLISS: You know I think the nation's been challenged to make sure that everybody participates in winning the war on terrorism. He's asked the American people to participate in the process by being on the lookout for different activities, suspicious activities... CARVILLE: In World War II, people got together, gave blood, they paid more taxes.

CHAMBLISS: Well, that's what happened with the shoe bomber on the airplane. That's the classic example that you can look at, where the American people had their eyes open.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Why isn't this president calling for any national sacrifice? Why doesn't he challege us? Why is it just giving tax breaks to pharmaceutical companies? Is there something else that we can do?

CHAMBLISS: Well, you missed the whole point. We've got to win the war on terrorism. Tax breaks and Social Security and anything else in this country doesn't make any difference.

CARVILLE: I agree.

CHAMBLISS: And he's providing great leadership on winning the war on terrorism.

NOVAK: The Democrats can always find a reason for raising taxes, I can tell you that. Colonel Crowley, I want to quote for you of one of your former bosses, former Vice President Al Gore. Wasn't he one of your bosses?

COL. P.J. CROWLEY, FMR. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN: Yes.

NOVAK: In "The New York Times" -- and we'll put it upen the screen -- he said, "Osama is back. al Qaeda hs reconstituted itself. And, according to the director of central intelligence, possesses just as severe threat to us right now as he did in the weeks leading up to September 11. Meanwhile, the president has been out on the campaign trail beating the drums of war against Saddam Hussein."

You're an expert on this. That's just political claptrap, isn't it?

CROWLEY: Well, I think it reflects the fact that the war on terrorism is not over. And the fact that bin Laden has re-emerged and the attacks in Yemen and Bali prove that al Qaeda is a very immediate and significant threat to the United States. What the vice president was saying was, there is a risk that, in this single focus on Iraq, we can get diverted from the immediate threat that we face, which is the war on terrorism and al Qaeda.

NOVAK: What's his credibility after lying low for a year, not talking about anything, and suddenly he is just mimicking what Tom Daschle said, what a lot of the left-wing press says? What's his credibility?

CROWLEY: Well, in the same "New York Times" today, none other than William Sapphire (ph) complimented Vice President Gore for the work that he did in setting the stage for the baltic nations to come into NATO. So he is an acknowledged expert on international affairs and he has a right to get out and give his opinion, as a patriotic American. I hope you don't consider him unpatriotic.

NOVAK: Well, I don't judge anybody's patriotism, not yours and not mine. But I just wondered if you can possibly associate yourself with this dismal view...

CROWLEY: I mean, absolutely. The fact remains that, if we go into Iraq precipitously, we cannot win the war on terrorism in Iraq, but we can make it much more difficult to accomplish.

CARVILLE: Senator Chambliss, let me show you what two whining Democrats had to say. And that was Senator Warren Rudman, Republican of New Hampshire, and Reagan Secretary of State George Schultz. "America remains dangerously unprepared to prevent and respond to a new catastrophic attack." The source was the "Wall Street Journal." They said that last month in a report that they issued.

Why are George Schultz and Warren Rudman whining like this?

CHAMBLISS: Well, you know, I think everybody agrees, James, that another attack is probably imminent. And are we prepared for it? No, we aren't. Are we moving in the right direction? You bet we are.

We're better prepared than we were on September 11th from a number of instances with respect to intelligence gathering. We're doing a better job today with the FBI, the NSA and the CIA gathering intelligence. They're doing a better job of sharing information.

They're a long ways away from sharing information like they need to. They're a long ways away from getting it down to the state and local level.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this morning? On the front page of "The New York Times" the FBI is saying that we don't take terrorism seriously enough. This is over a year. Senator, it's right there. It's the own FBI saying we're not ready on the front page of America's newspapers.

CHAMBLISS: And you heard me say we're not ready. But we're moving in the right direction. You know that statement, obviously is taken out of context.

CARVILLE: No.

CHAMBLISS: But the statement is not totally incorrect. Because we are in the right situation today. You know, we're vulnerable. We're such an open and free country that we remain vulnerable. But we are moving in the right direction to protect America.

CARVILLE: Senator, after all of this, the FBI is saying that they don't take -- our own people are saying that. Here, two days after the election, General Myers went and said we're losing ground in Afghanistan. Let me show you "TIME" magazine right here, says, "The U.S. concedes it has lost momentum in Afghanistan, while its enemies grow bolder." This is the November 18th thing of "TIME" magazine.

Why are we sitting around? Not as a partisan (ph). Why are we sitting around pretending to the American people that we are winning this war on terrorism, when, in fact, we're not?

CHAMBLISS: We are winning the war on terrorism. We're doing a good job, whether you're talking about counting heads and the number of people that we've got either killed or detained today. If you look at the quality of the people that we have arrested, you look at just what was announced today.

We've had a series beginning with Abu Zubaydah back in, what, several months ago now. You look at what happened on November 3rd, when we took out (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with a hell-fire missile from a predator. You look at today. We're not going to get them all at one time, but we're going to get them.

NOVAK: Go ahead, Colonel Crowley.

CROWLEY: I agree with the senator that we are in a better position today than we were one year ago. But, at the same time, a lot of what is going to win this war on terrorism is not a matter of bombs and bullets. It's a matter of making sure that we remain true to who we are as Americans. I won't feel confident that we're winning the war on terrorism when all Americans citizens, even those who would wish us ill, have a right to a lawyer and a day in court.

NOVAK: But I just want to look at where the situation is now compared to where it was on 9/11/2001. And that is that Afghanistan has been eliminated as a terrorist base that can really run free without any -- just let me finish the question.

CROWLEY: I don't agree with you, but that's all right.

NOVAK: We have not had a serious terrorist attack on the United States since the 9/11. And we are, you know, Colonel, this is a slow process. This isn't like going to war against Haiti, as your administration did. This is a...

CROWLEY: Cleaning up after the previous administration that left that...

NOVAK: Well, we don't want to debate Haiti, do we? But this is a slow process. Isn't it unreasonable and political to say...

CROWLEY: It is a long-term process. There's no question about that.

CHAMBLISS: There's another aspect to this too, and the other aspect is not the glamorous and glorious part of it, where we're winning a war. And that is, we're confiscating assets. We've got over $135 million in assets that have been frozen. We're slowly encroaching on their (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Afghanistan. NOVAK: We have to take a break right now. In a minute, we'll ask our guests if they remember how the Clinton administration handled terrorism.

Later, we'll get a helping of the latest junk food lawsuit. Would you like a multimillion-dollar settlement for fries and shakes? And our quote of the day is a shot, hard to believe at one of the hosts of CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Al Gore said President Bush is making serious mistakes in the war on terrorism by shifting his focus to Iraq before finishing the job with al Qaeda. The president couldn't be reached for comment. He's over in Europe lobbying NATO leaders for help against, you guessed it, Iraq.

In the CROSSFIRE, Georgia Republican Congressman Saxby Chambliss, who's moving over to the Senate in January, and retired Air Force Colonel and former national security spokesman, P.J. Crowley.

NOVAK: Colonel Crowley, let me see if I can get this straight. The Bush administration came in January of 2001, and suddenly, the al Qaeda movement appeared, because they were unattentive. It had never developed over years, developing these plans, during the Clinton administration. That's not the case, is it?

CROWLEY: Well, Bob, I would hope that now two years in office, the Republicans should understand that what's happening with the national security apparatus is something that is President Bush's responsibility and not President Clinton's fault. The fact is, the Clinton administration, over eight years, did more to increase our ability to combat terrorism than any previous administration.

Increases in funding, rewiring the government, now we've taken it to the next level with the department of homeland security. But there's no question that, starting in February 1993, when we had the first World Trade Center attack, the president was focused on al Qaeda and terrorism for eight years.

NOVAK: Colonel, you had perhaps unjustly a reputation for fairness when you were over at the White House. Are you saying that the attacks that were so carefully planned, the terrorist apparatus was built up over years all started on Bush's watch?

CROWLEY: Not at all. I'm not saying that at all.

NOVAK: But that's what you're implying.

CROWLEY: I'm saying that the Bush administration has said that nothing like this happened for nine months after they took office. Sandy Berger told Condoleeza Rice that she would spend more time on this issue than any other.

(CROSSTALK) CARVILLE: This is a question (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Why is it that the Hillary Rodham Clinton, Senator from New York, every Democrat, every Clinton administration person has been insistent that there be a national commission to investigate everything that happened in the Clinton administration?

NOVAK: Ask the senator.

CARVILLE: I'm askiong. Let me finish. Why is it that all the Democrats -- Senator Clinton led the charge to have an independent commission to investigate everything the Clinton administration and Bush administration did and the Bush administration fought this. What is the Bush administration afraid of?

CHAMBLISS: The Bush administration is not afraid of any commission investigating...

CARVILLE: Then why are they fighting it?

CHAMBLISS: James, as you know, there are negotiations on how you structure a commission. That's where you are today. But, let me tell you this.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer, James.

CHAMBLISS: What we're about in Congress is doing a job that we're charged to do. And it's Congress' job to do the investigation on September 11. It's not the people's job. We get paid to do that.

We ought to be able to investigate September 11 and tell the American people what happened. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to get to that point. As you know, my subcommittee did the only significant substantive report on September 11. It was not detailed. It was not intended to be detailed.

But we're in the midst of bipartisan hearings at the present time. But, because we've moved so slowly, every member of the intelligence committee is now committed to having an independent commission. Negotiations are under way to get it structured right and it's going to happen.

CARVILLE: And it's the Clinton administration -- Senator Clinton who was absolutely insistent we have this.

NOVAK: Because they're (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Republicans. That's why.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: ... investigating now, Bob?

NOVAK: Come on.

CARVILLE: What are you talking about? It investigates both the Clinton administration and the Bush administration. The Clinton administration said fine. The Bush -- they stopped and said, oh, we don't know if we want this. They sent mixed signals.

You know what you're scared of? I'll tell you what you're scared of. You're scared of that intelligence commission on August 9. That's what you're scared of.

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: No, I think we have to get back to a bipartisan aspect on the war on terrorism.

NOVAK: Not with this guy.

CROWLEY: Well, but that means that all of this that's been going on in Washington for the last six months should stop. I mean, what Vice President Gore said, the war on terrorism is not over. The success in Afghanistan is not assured. We need to make sure that we are focused on the war on terrorism, improving our position and ability to fight that before we get diverted in Iraq.

NOVAK: You have a final word, Senator?

CHAMBLISS: Well, you know, we can point fingers at each other and that doesn't do any good. What we need to do is get to the bottom of what the intelligence failures were that allowed September 11 to happen. And we're going to do that.

We're working very diligently within the House Intelligence Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee. There were probably faults on both ends. And every administration going back several different administrations. But, you know, that's beyond us. We've got to move forward. We've got to protect Americans.

NOVAK: P.J. Crowley, thank you very much. Senator Chambliss, thank you very much.

We haven't heard the last of whining Democrats. In a little bit, we'll take up Senator Tom Daschle's complaint that mean old Rush Limbaugh is just too tough for the party of Andrew Jackson and Harry Truman.

Also coming up, a big fat Big Mac lawsuit that's a big and tasty treat for the trial lawyers. And dot miss our quote of the day. A longtime Democratic nemesis takes up the cause of Augusta National and takes on one of CROSSFIRE's left wingers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: Rush Limbaugh says the Democratic Party doesn't have a message. Rush Limbaugh says the only thing the Democratic Party can do is name call, so let me question Mr. Limbaugh's allegations as clearly and politely I can. Recently my CROSSFIRE co-host and dear friend Paul Begala called on the Augusta National Golf Club's chairman Hootie Johnson to open up his club membership to half of humanity, the females half. So far Johnson has indicated that Augusta National will continue to practice discrimination.

Rush Limbaugh apparently supports that position.

But by his own standards, he must want to join the Democratic Party because "Our Quote of the Day" certainly sounds like name calling. Here's what Rush had to say about Paul on his show today.

Quote, "That forehead over at CNN just spews. He insulted the whole South." Oh, wow. "And is really an illustration of the Democrats' entire campaign strategy."

He insulted the whole South.

NOVAK: James, don't you think it's OK for Rush to call Paul Begala a forehead if Paul Begala makes fun of Hootie Johnson's name? Calls him Bootie, Cootie.

CARVILLE: How did he make fun of the whole South? I grew up in Louisiana which is a lot further south than Illinois...

NOVAK: Why don't you answer my question?

CARVILLE: Because, what did he do to make -- to attack the whole South?

NOVAK: That is my point...

CARVILLE: I don't care if Rush Limbaugh attacks Paul Begala or me or anybody else. He ought to just do it accurately and cleverly as opposed to idiotically.

NOVAK: I didn't think I'd get an answer from you.

CARVILLE: No...

NOVAK: In just a minute, we'll ask a couple of radio talk show hosts how they've contributed to the coarsening of the public discourse and how many vicious listeners they've sicced on poor Tom Daschle -- how frightened he is.

Later, some lawyers sic themselves on McDonald's. Their beef -- fast food makes you fat.

Wow, that's a real scoop.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE) CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful Foggy Bottom in downtown Washington, D.C.

Rush Limbaugh has had his halo turned up so bright today, it's a good thing he's only on radio. The sanctimonious act comes in response to Senate Majority Leader's complaint that Rush and a whole right wing crowd of radio talk show hosts are too shrill. Daschle said he's tired of getting threats from less than stable listeners who excited by Rush's ranting and raving.

Joining us to rant and rave about talk radio are Victoria Jones, a special correspondent to the Talk Radio News Service and Talk Radio Show's Armstrong Williams.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: How are you doing?

VICTORIA JONES, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, TALK RADIO NEWS SERVICE: Fine, thank you.

CARVILLE: Armstrong, nice to see you again, sir.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CARVILLE: Like your haircut.

WILLIAMS: I like yours.

CARVILLE: There you go. We've got something in common.

WILLIAMS: Yes, we do.

NOVAK: I'd like you to listen to the remarkable statement by the majority leader of the United States Senate that started this whole controversy .

Let's listen to Tom Daschle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DASCHLE: But what happens when Rush Limbaugh attacks those of us in public life, is that people are satisfied just to listen. They want to act because they get emotionally invested and so you know, the threats to those of us in public life to up dramatically -- and on our families and on us -- in a way that's very disconcerting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Victoria, have you ever heard anything sillier than that in your entire life?

JONES: Oh, I'm sure I have. I'm a regular viewer of the show. And so many, many times...

CARVILLE: Pretty good, lady.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: ... yes, many times.

CARVILLE: Not bad.

NOVAK: What do you think of that?: Isn't that ridiculous?

JONES: I think what's ridiculous is that he didn't have the common sense not to mention Limbaugh my name. This wouldn't even be a story if he had just said talk show hosts on the right. But he said Limbaugh. He inflamed Limbaugh. He gave Limbaugh a show. He built Limbaugh up. And so it became a Limbaugh-Daschle issue.

NOVAK: But how can you take it seriously as a threat...

JONES: But he does get death threats.

NOVAK: We all get threats. I get threats.

JONES: Of course we do. I get threats.

NOVAK: I get threats. We all get threats.

JONES: But we didn't -- we didn't get an anthrax letter.

NOVAK: What kind of nonsense if that?

JONES: He got an anthrax letter. We didn't get an anthrax letter.

NOVAK: Because of Rush Limbaugh?

JONES: I don't think so.

NOVAK: Oh, I don't either.

JONES: But I think it's interesting that nobody on the right got an anthrax letter. And nobody's dared talk about that.

CARVILLE: Mr. Williams does in fact take him seriously, he might be the only person in America that does.

Let me put up what Senator John McCain, the great patriot and served his country with distinction, had to say about Mr. Limbaugh himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I view Rush Limbaugh as entertainment. I view him like I view a circus clown...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER) CARVILLE: I mean, isn't that the way everybody kind of views these right wing talk radio shows, a pack of circus clowns out there, you know, telling a bunch of yahoos what they already want to believe?

WILLIAMS: That's your version.

You know, the...

CARVILLE: But Senator McCain's version too.

NOVAK: Listen to what he says.

CARVILLE: Go ahead. No, respond to what Senator McCain -- I want you to respond to what Senator McCain said.

WILLIAMS: You know, I just dismiss it. Obviously Senator McCain has not really listened to talk radio and especially those on the right. The issue is that these guys, we take threats very serious. These talk show hosts are very serious.

I think Senator Daschle has to deal with the fact that they lost the mid-term elections. He needs someone to blame. Talk radio hosts, people listen to them. They listen to our product. Liberals like you on the radio, you are no longer on the radio any longer. You had to come up with a good CROSSFIRE.

CARVILLE: I've never been on the radio.

WILLIAMS: Well, you're on...

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tell you that.

WILLIAMS: But any how, they...

CARVILLE: But if that's like mine, I have to be on TV. Man, people want to see this gorgeous face.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Can't you (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

WILLIAMS: Why don't you all just face it. The problem is if you cannot beat them, what you want to do is sort of take sort of -- impugn their credibility.

Talk radio hosts are very responsible. Mr. Daschle, just very unfortunate that many people agree with our value system, and that's why they listen to us. And that's why they (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARVILLE: I love Senator Daschle. He is a great man. He is a great American. I think...

NOVAK: Ah, come on...

CARVILLE: ... I just think he's wrong to take these clowns seriously. I agree with Senator McCain, who is a Republican. Here am I agreeing with a Republican.

NOVAK: Victoria...

CARVILLE: It's a circus act.

NOVAK: Victoria, I want Rush Limbaugh to speak for himself. He was on INSIDE POLITICS this afternoon on CNN. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, TALK RADIO HOST: Well, politically -- he was not personally, no. I mean, I frankly, I -- there -- this is pleasure for me. I mean, they keep elevating me in to areas that is not good for them, that aren't good for them.

But personally, no, this is -- I mean, this is the public arena. These kinds of things happen. I can't believe that he actually chose to make a big deal about this...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: That's exactly what I said. I can't believe that he chose to make a big deal about this, although I think the threats are probably very serious.

The other thing that I can't believe that has been made a very big deal of is that these people are doing their jobs. People on talk radio, us here, we're all doing our jobs. We're doing what we've been hired to do. We're doing what the corporations want us to do. If we stop doing what they want us to do, we're out of jobs.

WILLIAMS: Corporations?

JONES: Absolutely, absolutely.

WILLIAMS: Some of you may. Listen...

CARVILLE: Yes, I work for a corporation.

WILLIAMS: Well, not all of us...

CARVILLE: For a corporation -- well, who runs your show?

NOVAK: It's the Carville corporation.

CARVILLE: Well, no it's AOL-Time Warner. They ain't making any money, but I work for them.

JONES: Well, the point is the Democrats were stupid...

NOVAK: OK, Armstrong.

WILLIAMS: Senator Daschle was so irresponsible in what he said. JONES: Oh, please. Irresponsible?

WILLIAMS: He was so irresponsible...

CARVILLE: Irresponsible? He was -- you don't call him irresponsible.

JONES: Call him liberal dog hater if he's irresponsible. That's what Limbaugh has done...

WILLIAMS: Has he -- has he figured out that there's a war on terrorism that may -- they contributed to why he received these anthrax letters...

CARVILLE: I'm waiting for President Bush to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

WILLIAMS: ... instead of talk show hosts?

NOVAK: All right, Victoria, there's an explanation of why Tom Daschle did this, and it's done by one of the best political analysts in America. Let's listen to what -- the reason was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIMBAUGH: They don't have reasons for people to vote for them. They're just trying to gin up anger and resentment for their opposition. And it's just not working any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't that the answer, that the liberals and the Democrats, as they showed in this last campaign, have nothing to talk about. So they attack Rush Limbaugh...

JONES: No, there are two answers to that.

NOVAK: ... and radio talk show hosts?

JONES: He's absolutely right, but they don't express it. He's absolutely right that they ran a lousy campaign, and that they deserve to lose.

By the way, the best person considered on the left, but actually independent, predicted the Republicans would take the Senate.

NOVAK: So did I.

JONES: And I said that they should. See, we were right. Because the Democrats ran a lousy campaign. And I think this other story that's going around is this part of a big Democratic strategy -- please. If they had a strategy, they might have won.

WILLIAMS: Well, the Democrats would not have known they had run a lousy campaign had it not been for the mid-term elections because I'm sure Mr. Carville was just sitting around...

JONES: Well, I was shouting about it. I'm sure you were.

WILLIAMS: ... to just talk about George Bush. Went out and put his credibility on the line, and he got it smacked back to him in his face.

The fact is the American people are more like us than they are like you, Mr. Carville.

JONES: I don't even know (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CARVILLE: You know, I was amazed and maybe we lost the election. I'm going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

JONES: I think we (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Is that what this is?

CARVILLE: But you know, you guys think every two years somebody wins or looses, you think you just won a Nobel Prize...

WILLIAMS: No, this was historic.

CARVILLE: If you won...

WILLIAMS: It was historic in mid-term elections.

CARVILLE: Do you know how far you have to go back to off party -- in a mid-term election? Do you know how far you...

WILLIAMS: It was historic...

CARVILLE: ... have to go back, Armstrong?

WILLIAMS: How far do you have to go back ?

CARVILLE: All the way to 1998.

WILLIAMS: No...

CARVILLE: You have to go all the way to '98 to find something this historic.

WILLIAMS: Right, oh really...

CARVILLE: I mean, good God, man you won an election. Wow, let's all pass out here.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: To be saying (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that Americans are more like Armstrong than you than like James and me, this absolutely ridiculous.

WILLIAMS: Oh, is it?

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: Yes it is. Because this is where the debate has gone. What has happened in the last year is that it has become treasonous to criticize the government, and treasonous to criticize the policy...

WILLIAMS: Oh, come on now. Oh, no...

CARVILLE: You're right...

JONES: ... in (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARVILLE: ... you know what, you're (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They're not winning the war on terrorism. That's not treason; that's a fact.

JONES: And keeping the freedoms of our Constitution...

CARVILLE: They're trying in this election they did a good job of deflecting that.

JONES: ... is embodied...

NOVAK: I think we're out of time.

JONES: Oh, no.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Thank you very much, Victoria Jones. Thank you, Armstrong Williams.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: Nice to have you.

NOVAK: One of our listeners has a "Fireback", a suggestion about who should host a Democratic radio talk show. We aren't sure this guy would give us his TV job.

Next, two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, a sesame seed bun and a big fat lawsuit.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Has the McDonald's restaurant chain created a national epidemic of obese children? Don't laugh. Some attorneys in New York have cooked up a class action lawsuit. McDonald's attorney says it's the kind of frivolous lawsuit that shouldn't even be in court. And the company has asked the judge to dismiss it.

We're going to chew on this for a while with plaintiff's attorney John Coale.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: John, how are you?

JOHN COALE, PLAINTIFFS' ATTORNEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CARVILLE: Well, this is what...

NOVAK: Wait a minute, wait a minute...

CARVILLE: Here you go.

NOVAK: It's cold.

COALE: It's cold.

CARVILLE: A good conservative would say, Why doesn't the parent have some responsibility in this? And you know, what I would agree with that.

COALE: They do. It's not an either or situation in this things. Parents have responsibilities.

I've been -- you know, John Banzhaf who is at this university called me about a year ago because he's putting together a team of advocates to look at this issue. And I came in. I thought they wanted me for the plaintiff but they wanted me as my -- for my legal advice. And the fact of the matter is what the problem here is is that children are bombarded with this stuff...

CARVILLE: Right.

COALE: ... from almost two years old. You watch the Saturday morning cartoons. By the time it's about 1:00, these kids are whipped up into a frenzy. They bug their parents. They go down there. There's a playground. There's a "Star Wars" cup. There's toys. There's anything you want to draw children into this whole culture of fast foods.

They go to school. There's Channel 1 fast food ads. They have kiosks in the schools now and they pay the schools kickbacks to get them in there. And that's just not McDonald's. That's Coke. That's Pepsi.

So by the time this kid has any reason to make his own choice, this kid has nothing but fast food, fast food and more fast food.

NOVAK: Mr. Coale, I had two children. And they were under control. We took them to McDonald's sometimes. They didn't pig out at McDonald's. I got...

COALE: Yes, but that was when there was only 20 served.

NOVAK: ... seven -- I've got seven grandchildren. None of them are obese. They're all under control. It is the parent's responsibility. What kind of world are we in when the lawyers are saying, You have to protect the children because the parents can't.

COALE: No, no, it's not an either or situation. The parents have fault here. The parents should show some restraint. But there's also fault here with the fast food industry. NOVAK: I just to say, I have the favorite -- reading the "New York Times," I had one of my favorite quotes of the year.

CARVILLE: OK.

NOVAK: And we're going to put it up on the screen. It's from Israel Bradley (ph) who is a plaintiff's father. "I always believed McDonald's was healthy for my children."

Now what kind if idiot is Israel Bradley?

(LAUGHTER)

COALE: Well, I don't know Mr. Bradley but this is the same type of peole that McDonald's warns that little toys are dangerous. They have to warn people about a lot of things.

You know, this is a country that 30 percent of the kids today don't know where the Pacific Ocean is according to today.

CARVILLE: Right.

COALE: So we have to make allowances for that.

CARVILLE: You and I have one thing in common. That's only one thing. We both went to law school. You're a great lawyer. I was a terrible lawyer. But McDonald's said something today that I could even win. They say that they don't market to children.

COALE: Well, that's crazy.

CARVILLE: Well, let me show you...

COALE: All right, look...

CARVILLE: ... this is a Barbie pack here. Now who is this marketing to? Professional football players or something?

COALE: Yeah, right.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: I'm going to take this home for my little girls and put this in here and take it.

COALE: And they hunted for it.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: Right.

How could McDonald's say with a straight face that they don't market to children?

COALE: Well, they can't. And the thing is that these lawsuits are like -- in the early days of tobacco, everything -- Oh, it's frivolous, it's frivolous.

The way we look at it, we being people who run these kind of issues, are that we're going to go out there and this guy up in New York has a couple of suits, we're going to lose a lot of lawsuits. But I'll tell you something, we sure got everybody's attention here, don't we.

NOVAK: Mr. Coale, yes you do -- all over the world because it's so ridiculous.

Now John Doyle (ph) from the Center for Consumer Freedom, and we're going to put that up on the screen, he said this. And this is what we're getting at, now the real nitty gritty. "As with the other frivolous lawsuits that the trial lawyer brethren have shoved down Americans' throats, this is more about fattening attorney wallets than thinning consumers."

How much money are you going to make on this?

COALE: Probably nothing. I told Bansoff (ph) I'd do it for nothing.

But that frivolous tobacco suit I was in was a $250 billion settlement. I guess the tobacco companies still think it's frivolous. Maybe their stockholders have something to say about that.

NOVAK: You know...

COALE: These are not frivolous suits.

CARVILLE: Right. Of course not. But the point -- I guess I generally support the right of plaintiffs to bring lawsuits, you know what I mean. And...

NOVAK: Because they support the Democratic Party, that's why.

CARVILLE: You know, I support people acting responsibly. You know you guys want -- you don't want corporations to act responsibly, but you want every poor kid out there that's got a snot nose...

NOVAK: These are the -- isn't it true...

CARVILLE: ... or something to do something. Isn't it true that...

NOVAK: ... that this is...

CARVILLE: ... this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ought to act responsibly.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: ... isn't this all liberal Democratic politics, the trial lawyers are the big, big cash cow for the Democratic Party? That's what we're talking about.

COALE: I don't know. I'm here to talk about hamburgers. I don't know.

I'll tell you one thing though is personal responsibility is an issue for these parents and for Arthur Anderson and for Enron and for all of these other corporate office...

CARVILLE: I agree totally. I agree totally...

COALE: ... aren't some big thing in the sky. They're people. And we're seeing that these corporate officers who are taking this stuff, not marketing to kids, where is their responsibility? Show some restraint.

You know in France, McDonald's has warnings all over the place just bring your children here once a week. That's restraint.

NOVAK: Don't they have gram -- how much fat there is in each thing, listed in each McDonald's?

CARVILLE: Sure, if you can find it.

COALE: Yes, if you can find it.

CARVILLE: I just want to say one thing that this man and I have proved one thing. I want to just -- full disclosure. He is the husband of my dear friend who appears on a rival network, Greta van Sustern (ph). And he and I've proved that ugly guys can get beautiful women and marry them.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: And that is something that is worth saying (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: John Coale, thank you very much.

CARVILLE: Thank you.

NOVAK: Appreciate it.

COALE: All right.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Coming up, it's your turn to "Fireback" at us. One of our viewers is longing for the days when Democrats could take it as well as dish it out.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: It's Firebhack when the viewers "Fireback" at us. It's from Miles Pryor (ph) of Tampa, Florida. "Bob, it's a pleasure to listen to you intelligent arguments. You are so wrong most of the time, but you do it with great style. You're a good Republican."

Thank you, I guess, Miles, but you're a typical Democrat. You don't know right from wrong.

CARVILLE: No, no, we do know right from wrong. And we're right and you're wrong, period.

(LAUGHTER)

"James, by the way, there's a plastic liner in a trash can for your protection or the trash can's?" Jim Humphrey (ph), San Francisco, California.

Well, let's take a look in here and see -- you know, I think it was -- Bob was interviewing the trash can.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I think that was the picture of the year.

CARVILLE: You know, I think I think a little better with that damn thing over my head.

NOVAK: Yes, I wish you'd wear it every night.

CARVILLE: There you go. I should.

NOVAK: OK, the next one is from Dee Smyth (ph) of Tallahassee, Florida. A very intelligent person. "I'm so tired of listening to Tom Daschle wining and complaining about the president and the Republican Party. Now he's complaining about the likes of Rush Limbaugh. My gosh, Tom, grow some thicker skin."

Way to go Dee Smyth (ph).

CARVILLE: That's right. I agree with Senator McCain. It's a circus act. And he knows what he's talking about.

All right. "James, you need to get a radio talk show. You'd be great at it. Here in Kansas, if you want to listen to talk radio, there's nothing by conservatives and Fox Network and Limbaugh. Let's get some balance on the radio. We need someone like you to point out the lies they tell. Barbara Lawson (ph) -- Barbara, I could not deny the television viewing public a look at my beautiful face. It would be a crime to just hear my voice...

NOVAK: I think you...

CARVILLE: ... when they can look at me.

NOVAK: I think you'd fit in very nicely in Kansas.

CARVILLE: There you go.

NOVAK: But here's a question here, please.

CARVILLE: You attack Kansas -- and now you're attacking Kansas.

NOVAK: I didn't attack Kansas. I attacked you. Go ahead.

CARVILLE: I like Kansas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Mike and I'm from Buffalo. And I'd like to know, James, will your trash can be going into the museum with Tim Russert's white board from election 2000?

CARVILLE: No, I think it will just stay there for collecting trash. But you know, it was a lot -- it was a lot of fun doing it. And then we'll have the -- we'll think of some other things to do.

But I appreciate the compliment. Thank you, sir.

NOVAK: Next question.

CARVILLE: Go Bills.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, my name is Jodie Sollup (ph). I'm from Atlantic Beach, New York. And my question is are Democrats losing a shot at the presidency in 2004 by allowing Gore to speak to the Democratic Party's "new vision," quote unquote?

NOVAK: Well, I think every Republican says a little prayer when he goes to bed every night, "Please, God, Al Gore again in 2004."

CARVILLE: This may shock you young lady, but Democrats believe that everybody in America ought to be able to sleep. We are very big defenders of the First Amendment.

NOVAK: Yes...

CARVILLE: And Al Gore, as the former vice president, has every right to speak out just as every American has the right the speak out.

NOVAK: Oh, gag me. Go ahead.

CARVILLE: You always don't want people to talk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Jeff Working (ph). I'm from Washington, D.C. My question is this, we -- aren't frivolous lawsuits good for us? We've got lawyers protecting us from the poisons of cigarettes? Why not hold McDonald's to the same standard?

NOVAK: You know, I tell you I grew up when people used to say -- you know what they used call cigarettes -- nail coughing - coughing nails -- I'll get it right. Coughing nails. Everybody knew they were bad for you. This is just a scam by the lawyers to get big money.

CARVILLE: That's why they're getting all of the money because these comapnies deny that they were bad for you for a long time.

I don't know what it is, why you love powerful people so much, and why you hate little people so much.

NOVAK: Go ahead -- I love freedom.

CARVILLE: I don't understand that.

I love people, not power.

NOVAK: I love freedom; you don't understand that.

Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. I'm James from Omaha, Nebraska. And my comment is this. As long as the Democrats continue to whine and complain and not propose solutions to problems that they're going to continue to lose the support of Americans.

NOVAK: And a big way and as the party in trouble, and he can say it's just...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You know what, you know what from the left I'm James Carville. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT begins right now.

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Issues?; McDonald's Hit With Another Lawsuit>


Aired November 21, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: he goes to a NATO summit and talks Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My expectation is, is that we can do this peacefully if Saddam Hussein disarms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is the president too focused on the man in Baghdad? Al Gore thinks so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL GORE, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I think that was a serious mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNER: Are you listening to Rush Limbaugh? Tom Daschle says right wing talk radio is more than hot air. It's making America dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: The threats to those of us in public life go up dramatically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And, hold the pickles, hold the lettuce. A brand new lawsuit may upset us. The Big Mac legal attack.

Ahead on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: James Carville and Robert Novak.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, Rush Limbaugh can dish it out. So why can't he take a little criticism? And McDonald's been dishing out fat and calories for years. So why are they surprised that some overweight customers are upset? But first, the sweetest part of the day, and we guarantee it's non- fattening. Here comes our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: The U.S. government disclosed the capture of al Qaeda's chief of operations in the Persian Gulf, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the suspected mastermind of the USS Cole bombing. He was taken in an undisclosed foreign country earlier this month. He is now in U.S. custody and is called a high-ranking al Qaeda operative.

This good news for America is bad news for Democrats. With Democrats admitting they lost the midterm elections because they had no message, Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle, after the election, accused President Bush of losing the war against terrorism. With Al Gore lightly echoing that message. Now it's clear they just have no idea what's going on.

JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: No, Bob. Because you all don't have any idea what's going on. You think you catch one guy and you've destroyed al Qaeda, you're wrong. This homeland security thing, as Senator Rudman pointed out, is ill funded. And we're not making the progress we need to make on this war and we'll talk about it later.

NOVAK: Warren Rudman has been attacking (ph) his own Republicans for years. But I'll tell you...

CARVILLE: And George Schultz is on that committee and he's not a very good Republican either.

NOVAK: No he isn't a very good Republican.

CARVILLE: OK, fine. You know what, they're good Americans and that's the important thing here. And you're more interested in being a good Republican than in being a good American.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I'll tell you this. If you think that's the answer to getting back into the favor of the American people, to attack the president on terrorism, you're silly.

CARVILLE: Yeah, I do. I don't think we've done a very good job. Ebenezer Scrooge would love this. Three days after Christmas, nearly one million Americans stand to lose unemployment benefits. Their only hope is a one-day special session of the House of Representatives scheduled for tomorrow. But the benefits bill has been stalled.

The "Wall Street Journal" reports that House and Senate Republicans can't agree on some extra goodies the House tacked onto it designed to protect the Bush administration from lawsuits over the way it pays doctors for Medicare. Unemployed people don't have the money for lawsuits and lobbyists, and if Congress can't get its act together they won't have money for food. Merry Christmas.

NOVAK: Wait a minute, James. Let me say a word. I want to say something the politicians of neither party will say is, you extend those unemployment benefits, and it discourages people from going out and looking for a job.

CARVILLE: You know what they need to do the unemployment people, they need to give these drug companies more benefits, we need to take on these (UNINTELLIGIBLE) kids that are suffering for this. We need to take on the little people, because that's what you all love to do.

You hate little people. You hate the unemployed. You hate poor children. You hate all the little people of the world. You love big people.

NOVAK: I'm not talking about little people. I'm talking about the trial lawyers.

CARVILLE: What are you talking about?

NOVAK: That's all the trial lawyers.

CARVILLE: What is it about -- why do you like the approval of power, Bob? Why is it so necessary to you?

NOVAK: At the NATO summit in Prague, the Canadian delegation viciously attacked President Bush. During a Canadian briefing for reporters, an official said of the American president, "What a moron." The Canadian press is not disclosing this official's identified, but I will. It was Prime Minister Jean Chretien's spokeswoman and communications director, Francine Ducros. No apology yet.

The Canadians are in an uproar because the Americans are urging them to boost defense spending. Canada ranks third from the bottom among NATO countries in military spending. Ahead only of Luxembourg and of Iceland, which does not even have a military. Canada should be ashamed of itself.

CARVILLE: I think Canadians are pretty proud people. I actually like Canada, I like Canadians. Just like I like France and I like French people and everybody else. You right wingers, you all hate poor people, you hate children, you hate Canadians, you hate Frenchmen. You hate everything. What the hell do you like other than rich people?

NOVAK: I'll tell you what...

CARVILLE: Other than rich people, who do you like?

NOVAK: If you liked the weenie Canadians so much why don't you go there? Why don't you go there?

CARVILLE: I go there all the time. I love Canadians. I go to England. I like the British.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: You'd probably like Iraq if you went there, too. CARVILLE: No, I wouldn't like Iraq. But I sure -- I got an office in Britain. I've got an office in Tel Aviv. I love the Israelis, too. You don't like the Israelis. I do.

They gave away office space in a lottery today for the incoming members of -- the 53 incoming members of the House of Representatives. But is this really a big deal? The difference between picking first and picking last can be an office five minutes away from the Capitol building as opposed to a 15-minute hike.

And guess who's name was drawn first, none other than Florida's freshman Republican Katherine Harris. When asked her boss' reaction, Harris' chief of staff crowed, "No recount required, no chads involved."

Katherine Harris got where she is today by pure dumb luck and by being against recounts. Well, nothing's changed.

NOVAK: Well, I'll tell you something. You remember on election night when you left wingers were pedaling this gossip, we're going to beat Katherine Harris. This is a big chad going against it. I'm going to tell you. You're going to have to live with her. She's going to be here for a long time. And she'll probably outlast you.

CARVILLE: But if they had a makeup lottery, I know she'd win that. I guarantee you that.

NOVAK: Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu running for re-election in Louisiana's December 7th runoff has a dilemma. She must do better with black voters while not diminishing her white support. So she does a dance. Being one of three democratic senators to support House Republican amendments to the homeland security bill, then voting against confirmation of Judge Dennis Shed (ph), a white conservative targeted by black pressure groups.

Enough to appease Louisiana blacks? Not for many, such as state Senator Tom Cravens, who told "The Washington Times" he can't forget Senator Landrieu bragging how much she supports George W. Bush. James, it is just hard to be a southern Democrat these days.

CARVILLE: You know, it's hard for you to understand that there actually are people that would like to get white votes and black votes at the same time. And white folks and black folks can get together and vote for the same campaign. In the wedge issues that you right wingers like, you like to divide white people and black people and I like to bring them together. I think we all ought to be part of the same dumb bowl as we say in Louisiana.

NOVAK: But she's losing on both...

CARVILLE: Everybody knows that the Fox News Channel is merely a wing of the Republican Party, and its viewers use it the same way a drunk uses a lamp post, for support, not illumination. So I really don't understand why there's such a big uproar over the disclosure that Fox News President Roger Ailes sends advice to President Bush. Who did you expect him to send notes to, Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy? As for "The New York Times" editorial talking about it today, well the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is just showing naivete. Getting upset about a Republican network is the same about being shocked that there's gambling in Casablanca.

NOVAK: James, you've got a point. You know I didn't criticize when the president of CNN spent the night in the Lincoln bedroom at the White House under Bill Clinton. So I won't criticize Roger Ailes either.

CARVILLE: I'm just saying that I'm not criticizing. Of course it's a Republican network. And what's the big deal here? Why is everybody all bent out of shape about it?

NOVAK: Still to come, a whole lot of democratic whining. Something they're very good at. Al Gore doesn't think the president can handle more than one international bad guy at a time. And Senator Tom Daschle can't seem to handle Rush Limbaugh at all.

But if you're good and sit through all of that, we promise to take you to McDonald's.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Senior administration officials confirm to CNN that al Qaeda's top operations chief for the Persian Gulf has been captured. The guy's the suspected mastermind of the USS Cole attack and was probably on the U.S. embassy bombings in Africa, as well.

Suppose this will stop Al Gore and his fellow whining Democrats from complaining that the Bush administration has forgotten the war on terrorism? Not a chance.

In the CROSSFIRE are retired Air Force Colonel and former Clinton administration National Security Council Spokesman P.J. Crowley. And with him is Republican Congressman and now Senator-elect from Georgia, congratulations, Saxby Chambliss.

CARVILLE: Let me -- let me start out, Senator Chablis, a question I asked Senator McCain, and that is, what sacrifice has this president caused on us as Americans to make since we started this war on terrorism?

SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA SENATOR-ELECT: What sacrifice has he called on us to make?

CARVILLE: Well, how has he challenged us as a nation?

CHAMBLISS: You know I think the nation's been challenged to make sure that everybody participates in winning the war on terrorism. He's asked the American people to participate in the process by being on the lookout for different activities, suspicious activities... CARVILLE: In World War II, people got together, gave blood, they paid more taxes.

CHAMBLISS: Well, that's what happened with the shoe bomber on the airplane. That's the classic example that you can look at, where the American people had their eyes open.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Why isn't this president calling for any national sacrifice? Why doesn't he challege us? Why is it just giving tax breaks to pharmaceutical companies? Is there something else that we can do?

CHAMBLISS: Well, you missed the whole point. We've got to win the war on terrorism. Tax breaks and Social Security and anything else in this country doesn't make any difference.

CARVILLE: I agree.

CHAMBLISS: And he's providing great leadership on winning the war on terrorism.

NOVAK: The Democrats can always find a reason for raising taxes, I can tell you that. Colonel Crowley, I want to quote for you of one of your former bosses, former Vice President Al Gore. Wasn't he one of your bosses?

COL. P.J. CROWLEY, FMR. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN: Yes.

NOVAK: In "The New York Times" -- and we'll put it upen the screen -- he said, "Osama is back. al Qaeda hs reconstituted itself. And, according to the director of central intelligence, possesses just as severe threat to us right now as he did in the weeks leading up to September 11. Meanwhile, the president has been out on the campaign trail beating the drums of war against Saddam Hussein."

You're an expert on this. That's just political claptrap, isn't it?

CROWLEY: Well, I think it reflects the fact that the war on terrorism is not over. And the fact that bin Laden has re-emerged and the attacks in Yemen and Bali prove that al Qaeda is a very immediate and significant threat to the United States. What the vice president was saying was, there is a risk that, in this single focus on Iraq, we can get diverted from the immediate threat that we face, which is the war on terrorism and al Qaeda.

NOVAK: What's his credibility after lying low for a year, not talking about anything, and suddenly he is just mimicking what Tom Daschle said, what a lot of the left-wing press says? What's his credibility?

CROWLEY: Well, in the same "New York Times" today, none other than William Sapphire (ph) complimented Vice President Gore for the work that he did in setting the stage for the baltic nations to come into NATO. So he is an acknowledged expert on international affairs and he has a right to get out and give his opinion, as a patriotic American. I hope you don't consider him unpatriotic.

NOVAK: Well, I don't judge anybody's patriotism, not yours and not mine. But I just wondered if you can possibly associate yourself with this dismal view...

CROWLEY: I mean, absolutely. The fact remains that, if we go into Iraq precipitously, we cannot win the war on terrorism in Iraq, but we can make it much more difficult to accomplish.

CARVILLE: Senator Chambliss, let me show you what two whining Democrats had to say. And that was Senator Warren Rudman, Republican of New Hampshire, and Reagan Secretary of State George Schultz. "America remains dangerously unprepared to prevent and respond to a new catastrophic attack." The source was the "Wall Street Journal." They said that last month in a report that they issued.

Why are George Schultz and Warren Rudman whining like this?

CHAMBLISS: Well, you know, I think everybody agrees, James, that another attack is probably imminent. And are we prepared for it? No, we aren't. Are we moving in the right direction? You bet we are.

We're better prepared than we were on September 11th from a number of instances with respect to intelligence gathering. We're doing a better job today with the FBI, the NSA and the CIA gathering intelligence. They're doing a better job of sharing information.

They're a long ways away from sharing information like they need to. They're a long ways away from getting it down to the state and local level.

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this morning? On the front page of "The New York Times" the FBI is saying that we don't take terrorism seriously enough. This is over a year. Senator, it's right there. It's the own FBI saying we're not ready on the front page of America's newspapers.

CHAMBLISS: And you heard me say we're not ready. But we're moving in the right direction. You know that statement, obviously is taken out of context.

CARVILLE: No.

CHAMBLISS: But the statement is not totally incorrect. Because we are in the right situation today. You know, we're vulnerable. We're such an open and free country that we remain vulnerable. But we are moving in the right direction to protect America.

CARVILLE: Senator, after all of this, the FBI is saying that they don't take -- our own people are saying that. Here, two days after the election, General Myers went and said we're losing ground in Afghanistan. Let me show you "TIME" magazine right here, says, "The U.S. concedes it has lost momentum in Afghanistan, while its enemies grow bolder." This is the November 18th thing of "TIME" magazine.

Why are we sitting around? Not as a partisan (ph). Why are we sitting around pretending to the American people that we are winning this war on terrorism, when, in fact, we're not?

CHAMBLISS: We are winning the war on terrorism. We're doing a good job, whether you're talking about counting heads and the number of people that we've got either killed or detained today. If you look at the quality of the people that we have arrested, you look at just what was announced today.

We've had a series beginning with Abu Zubaydah back in, what, several months ago now. You look at what happened on November 3rd, when we took out (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with a hell-fire missile from a predator. You look at today. We're not going to get them all at one time, but we're going to get them.

NOVAK: Go ahead, Colonel Crowley.

CROWLEY: I agree with the senator that we are in a better position today than we were one year ago. But, at the same time, a lot of what is going to win this war on terrorism is not a matter of bombs and bullets. It's a matter of making sure that we remain true to who we are as Americans. I won't feel confident that we're winning the war on terrorism when all Americans citizens, even those who would wish us ill, have a right to a lawyer and a day in court.

NOVAK: But I just want to look at where the situation is now compared to where it was on 9/11/2001. And that is that Afghanistan has been eliminated as a terrorist base that can really run free without any -- just let me finish the question.

CROWLEY: I don't agree with you, but that's all right.

NOVAK: We have not had a serious terrorist attack on the United States since the 9/11. And we are, you know, Colonel, this is a slow process. This isn't like going to war against Haiti, as your administration did. This is a...

CROWLEY: Cleaning up after the previous administration that left that...

NOVAK: Well, we don't want to debate Haiti, do we? But this is a slow process. Isn't it unreasonable and political to say...

CROWLEY: It is a long-term process. There's no question about that.

CHAMBLISS: There's another aspect to this too, and the other aspect is not the glamorous and glorious part of it, where we're winning a war. And that is, we're confiscating assets. We've got over $135 million in assets that have been frozen. We're slowly encroaching on their (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Afghanistan. NOVAK: We have to take a break right now. In a minute, we'll ask our guests if they remember how the Clinton administration handled terrorism.

Later, we'll get a helping of the latest junk food lawsuit. Would you like a multimillion-dollar settlement for fries and shakes? And our quote of the day is a shot, hard to believe at one of the hosts of CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Al Gore said President Bush is making serious mistakes in the war on terrorism by shifting his focus to Iraq before finishing the job with al Qaeda. The president couldn't be reached for comment. He's over in Europe lobbying NATO leaders for help against, you guessed it, Iraq.

In the CROSSFIRE, Georgia Republican Congressman Saxby Chambliss, who's moving over to the Senate in January, and retired Air Force Colonel and former national security spokesman, P.J. Crowley.

NOVAK: Colonel Crowley, let me see if I can get this straight. The Bush administration came in January of 2001, and suddenly, the al Qaeda movement appeared, because they were unattentive. It had never developed over years, developing these plans, during the Clinton administration. That's not the case, is it?

CROWLEY: Well, Bob, I would hope that now two years in office, the Republicans should understand that what's happening with the national security apparatus is something that is President Bush's responsibility and not President Clinton's fault. The fact is, the Clinton administration, over eight years, did more to increase our ability to combat terrorism than any previous administration.

Increases in funding, rewiring the government, now we've taken it to the next level with the department of homeland security. But there's no question that, starting in February 1993, when we had the first World Trade Center attack, the president was focused on al Qaeda and terrorism for eight years.

NOVAK: Colonel, you had perhaps unjustly a reputation for fairness when you were over at the White House. Are you saying that the attacks that were so carefully planned, the terrorist apparatus was built up over years all started on Bush's watch?

CROWLEY: Not at all. I'm not saying that at all.

NOVAK: But that's what you're implying.

CROWLEY: I'm saying that the Bush administration has said that nothing like this happened for nine months after they took office. Sandy Berger told Condoleeza Rice that she would spend more time on this issue than any other.

(CROSSTALK) CARVILLE: This is a question (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Why is it that the Hillary Rodham Clinton, Senator from New York, every Democrat, every Clinton administration person has been insistent that there be a national commission to investigate everything that happened in the Clinton administration?

NOVAK: Ask the senator.

CARVILLE: I'm askiong. Let me finish. Why is it that all the Democrats -- Senator Clinton led the charge to have an independent commission to investigate everything the Clinton administration and Bush administration did and the Bush administration fought this. What is the Bush administration afraid of?

CHAMBLISS: The Bush administration is not afraid of any commission investigating...

CARVILLE: Then why are they fighting it?

CHAMBLISS: James, as you know, there are negotiations on how you structure a commission. That's where you are today. But, let me tell you this.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer, James.

CHAMBLISS: What we're about in Congress is doing a job that we're charged to do. And it's Congress' job to do the investigation on September 11. It's not the people's job. We get paid to do that.

We ought to be able to investigate September 11 and tell the American people what happened. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to get to that point. As you know, my subcommittee did the only significant substantive report on September 11. It was not detailed. It was not intended to be detailed.

But we're in the midst of bipartisan hearings at the present time. But, because we've moved so slowly, every member of the intelligence committee is now committed to having an independent commission. Negotiations are under way to get it structured right and it's going to happen.

CARVILLE: And it's the Clinton administration -- Senator Clinton who was absolutely insistent we have this.

NOVAK: Because they're (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Republicans. That's why.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: ... investigating now, Bob?

NOVAK: Come on.

CARVILLE: What are you talking about? It investigates both the Clinton administration and the Bush administration. The Clinton administration said fine. The Bush -- they stopped and said, oh, we don't know if we want this. They sent mixed signals.

You know what you're scared of? I'll tell you what you're scared of. You're scared of that intelligence commission on August 9. That's what you're scared of.

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: No, I think we have to get back to a bipartisan aspect on the war on terrorism.

NOVAK: Not with this guy.

CROWLEY: Well, but that means that all of this that's been going on in Washington for the last six months should stop. I mean, what Vice President Gore said, the war on terrorism is not over. The success in Afghanistan is not assured. We need to make sure that we are focused on the war on terrorism, improving our position and ability to fight that before we get diverted in Iraq.

NOVAK: You have a final word, Senator?

CHAMBLISS: Well, you know, we can point fingers at each other and that doesn't do any good. What we need to do is get to the bottom of what the intelligence failures were that allowed September 11 to happen. And we're going to do that.

We're working very diligently within the House Intelligence Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee. There were probably faults on both ends. And every administration going back several different administrations. But, you know, that's beyond us. We've got to move forward. We've got to protect Americans.

NOVAK: P.J. Crowley, thank you very much. Senator Chambliss, thank you very much.

We haven't heard the last of whining Democrats. In a little bit, we'll take up Senator Tom Daschle's complaint that mean old Rush Limbaugh is just too tough for the party of Andrew Jackson and Harry Truman.

Also coming up, a big fat Big Mac lawsuit that's a big and tasty treat for the trial lawyers. And dot miss our quote of the day. A longtime Democratic nemesis takes up the cause of Augusta National and takes on one of CROSSFIRE's left wingers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: Rush Limbaugh says the Democratic Party doesn't have a message. Rush Limbaugh says the only thing the Democratic Party can do is name call, so let me question Mr. Limbaugh's allegations as clearly and politely I can. Recently my CROSSFIRE co-host and dear friend Paul Begala called on the Augusta National Golf Club's chairman Hootie Johnson to open up his club membership to half of humanity, the females half. So far Johnson has indicated that Augusta National will continue to practice discrimination.

Rush Limbaugh apparently supports that position.

But by his own standards, he must want to join the Democratic Party because "Our Quote of the Day" certainly sounds like name calling. Here's what Rush had to say about Paul on his show today.

Quote, "That forehead over at CNN just spews. He insulted the whole South." Oh, wow. "And is really an illustration of the Democrats' entire campaign strategy."

He insulted the whole South.

NOVAK: James, don't you think it's OK for Rush to call Paul Begala a forehead if Paul Begala makes fun of Hootie Johnson's name? Calls him Bootie, Cootie.

CARVILLE: How did he make fun of the whole South? I grew up in Louisiana which is a lot further south than Illinois...

NOVAK: Why don't you answer my question?

CARVILLE: Because, what did he do to make -- to attack the whole South?

NOVAK: That is my point...

CARVILLE: I don't care if Rush Limbaugh attacks Paul Begala or me or anybody else. He ought to just do it accurately and cleverly as opposed to idiotically.

NOVAK: I didn't think I'd get an answer from you.

CARVILLE: No...

NOVAK: In just a minute, we'll ask a couple of radio talk show hosts how they've contributed to the coarsening of the public discourse and how many vicious listeners they've sicced on poor Tom Daschle -- how frightened he is.

Later, some lawyers sic themselves on McDonald's. Their beef -- fast food makes you fat.

Wow, that's a real scoop.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE) CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful Foggy Bottom in downtown Washington, D.C.

Rush Limbaugh has had his halo turned up so bright today, it's a good thing he's only on radio. The sanctimonious act comes in response to Senate Majority Leader's complaint that Rush and a whole right wing crowd of radio talk show hosts are too shrill. Daschle said he's tired of getting threats from less than stable listeners who excited by Rush's ranting and raving.

Joining us to rant and rave about talk radio are Victoria Jones, a special correspondent to the Talk Radio News Service and Talk Radio Show's Armstrong Williams.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: How are you doing?

VICTORIA JONES, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, TALK RADIO NEWS SERVICE: Fine, thank you.

CARVILLE: Armstrong, nice to see you again, sir.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CARVILLE: Like your haircut.

WILLIAMS: I like yours.

CARVILLE: There you go. We've got something in common.

WILLIAMS: Yes, we do.

NOVAK: I'd like you to listen to the remarkable statement by the majority leader of the United States Senate that started this whole controversy .

Let's listen to Tom Daschle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DASCHLE: But what happens when Rush Limbaugh attacks those of us in public life, is that people are satisfied just to listen. They want to act because they get emotionally invested and so you know, the threats to those of us in public life to up dramatically -- and on our families and on us -- in a way that's very disconcerting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Victoria, have you ever heard anything sillier than that in your entire life?

JONES: Oh, I'm sure I have. I'm a regular viewer of the show. And so many, many times...

CARVILLE: Pretty good, lady.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: ... yes, many times.

CARVILLE: Not bad.

NOVAK: What do you think of that?: Isn't that ridiculous?

JONES: I think what's ridiculous is that he didn't have the common sense not to mention Limbaugh my name. This wouldn't even be a story if he had just said talk show hosts on the right. But he said Limbaugh. He inflamed Limbaugh. He gave Limbaugh a show. He built Limbaugh up. And so it became a Limbaugh-Daschle issue.

NOVAK: But how can you take it seriously as a threat...

JONES: But he does get death threats.

NOVAK: We all get threats. I get threats.

JONES: Of course we do. I get threats.

NOVAK: I get threats. We all get threats.

JONES: But we didn't -- we didn't get an anthrax letter.

NOVAK: What kind of nonsense if that?

JONES: He got an anthrax letter. We didn't get an anthrax letter.

NOVAK: Because of Rush Limbaugh?

JONES: I don't think so.

NOVAK: Oh, I don't either.

JONES: But I think it's interesting that nobody on the right got an anthrax letter. And nobody's dared talk about that.

CARVILLE: Mr. Williams does in fact take him seriously, he might be the only person in America that does.

Let me put up what Senator John McCain, the great patriot and served his country with distinction, had to say about Mr. Limbaugh himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I view Rush Limbaugh as entertainment. I view him like I view a circus clown...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER) CARVILLE: I mean, isn't that the way everybody kind of views these right wing talk radio shows, a pack of circus clowns out there, you know, telling a bunch of yahoos what they already want to believe?

WILLIAMS: That's your version.

You know, the...

CARVILLE: But Senator McCain's version too.

NOVAK: Listen to what he says.

CARVILLE: Go ahead. No, respond to what Senator McCain -- I want you to respond to what Senator McCain said.

WILLIAMS: You know, I just dismiss it. Obviously Senator McCain has not really listened to talk radio and especially those on the right. The issue is that these guys, we take threats very serious. These talk show hosts are very serious.

I think Senator Daschle has to deal with the fact that they lost the mid-term elections. He needs someone to blame. Talk radio hosts, people listen to them. They listen to our product. Liberals like you on the radio, you are no longer on the radio any longer. You had to come up with a good CROSSFIRE.

CARVILLE: I've never been on the radio.

WILLIAMS: Well, you're on...

CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tell you that.

WILLIAMS: But any how, they...

CARVILLE: But if that's like mine, I have to be on TV. Man, people want to see this gorgeous face.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Can't you (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

WILLIAMS: Why don't you all just face it. The problem is if you cannot beat them, what you want to do is sort of take sort of -- impugn their credibility.

Talk radio hosts are very responsible. Mr. Daschle, just very unfortunate that many people agree with our value system, and that's why they listen to us. And that's why they (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARVILLE: I love Senator Daschle. He is a great man. He is a great American. I think...

NOVAK: Ah, come on...

CARVILLE: ... I just think he's wrong to take these clowns seriously. I agree with Senator McCain, who is a Republican. Here am I agreeing with a Republican.

NOVAK: Victoria...

CARVILLE: It's a circus act.

NOVAK: Victoria, I want Rush Limbaugh to speak for himself. He was on INSIDE POLITICS this afternoon on CNN. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, TALK RADIO HOST: Well, politically -- he was not personally, no. I mean, I frankly, I -- there -- this is pleasure for me. I mean, they keep elevating me in to areas that is not good for them, that aren't good for them.

But personally, no, this is -- I mean, this is the public arena. These kinds of things happen. I can't believe that he actually chose to make a big deal about this...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: That's exactly what I said. I can't believe that he chose to make a big deal about this, although I think the threats are probably very serious.

The other thing that I can't believe that has been made a very big deal of is that these people are doing their jobs. People on talk radio, us here, we're all doing our jobs. We're doing what we've been hired to do. We're doing what the corporations want us to do. If we stop doing what they want us to do, we're out of jobs.

WILLIAMS: Corporations?

JONES: Absolutely, absolutely.

WILLIAMS: Some of you may. Listen...

CARVILLE: Yes, I work for a corporation.

WILLIAMS: Well, not all of us...

CARVILLE: For a corporation -- well, who runs your show?

NOVAK: It's the Carville corporation.

CARVILLE: Well, no it's AOL-Time Warner. They ain't making any money, but I work for them.

JONES: Well, the point is the Democrats were stupid...

NOVAK: OK, Armstrong.

WILLIAMS: Senator Daschle was so irresponsible in what he said. JONES: Oh, please. Irresponsible?

WILLIAMS: He was so irresponsible...

CARVILLE: Irresponsible? He was -- you don't call him irresponsible.

JONES: Call him liberal dog hater if he's irresponsible. That's what Limbaugh has done...

WILLIAMS: Has he -- has he figured out that there's a war on terrorism that may -- they contributed to why he received these anthrax letters...

CARVILLE: I'm waiting for President Bush to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

WILLIAMS: ... instead of talk show hosts?

NOVAK: All right, Victoria, there's an explanation of why Tom Daschle did this, and it's done by one of the best political analysts in America. Let's listen to what -- the reason was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIMBAUGH: They don't have reasons for people to vote for them. They're just trying to gin up anger and resentment for their opposition. And it's just not working any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't that the answer, that the liberals and the Democrats, as they showed in this last campaign, have nothing to talk about. So they attack Rush Limbaugh...

JONES: No, there are two answers to that.

NOVAK: ... and radio talk show hosts?

JONES: He's absolutely right, but they don't express it. He's absolutely right that they ran a lousy campaign, and that they deserve to lose.

By the way, the best person considered on the left, but actually independent, predicted the Republicans would take the Senate.

NOVAK: So did I.

JONES: And I said that they should. See, we were right. Because the Democrats ran a lousy campaign. And I think this other story that's going around is this part of a big Democratic strategy -- please. If they had a strategy, they might have won.

WILLIAMS: Well, the Democrats would not have known they had run a lousy campaign had it not been for the mid-term elections because I'm sure Mr. Carville was just sitting around...

JONES: Well, I was shouting about it. I'm sure you were.

WILLIAMS: ... to just talk about George Bush. Went out and put his credibility on the line, and he got it smacked back to him in his face.

The fact is the American people are more like us than they are like you, Mr. Carville.

JONES: I don't even know (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CARVILLE: You know, I was amazed and maybe we lost the election. I'm going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

JONES: I think we (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Is that what this is?

CARVILLE: But you know, you guys think every two years somebody wins or looses, you think you just won a Nobel Prize...

WILLIAMS: No, this was historic.

CARVILLE: If you won...

WILLIAMS: It was historic in mid-term elections.

CARVILLE: Do you know how far you have to go back to off party -- in a mid-term election? Do you know how far you...

WILLIAMS: It was historic...

CARVILLE: ... have to go back, Armstrong?

WILLIAMS: How far do you have to go back ?

CARVILLE: All the way to 1998.

WILLIAMS: No...

CARVILLE: You have to go all the way to '98 to find something this historic.

WILLIAMS: Right, oh really...

CARVILLE: I mean, good God, man you won an election. Wow, let's all pass out here.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: To be saying (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that Americans are more like Armstrong than you than like James and me, this absolutely ridiculous.

WILLIAMS: Oh, is it?

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: Yes it is. Because this is where the debate has gone. What has happened in the last year is that it has become treasonous to criticize the government, and treasonous to criticize the policy...

WILLIAMS: Oh, come on now. Oh, no...

CARVILLE: You're right...

JONES: ... in (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARVILLE: ... you know what, you're (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They're not winning the war on terrorism. That's not treason; that's a fact.

JONES: And keeping the freedoms of our Constitution...

CARVILLE: They're trying in this election they did a good job of deflecting that.

JONES: ... is embodied...

NOVAK: I think we're out of time.

JONES: Oh, no.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Thank you very much, Victoria Jones. Thank you, Armstrong Williams.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: Nice to have you.

NOVAK: One of our listeners has a "Fireback", a suggestion about who should host a Democratic radio talk show. We aren't sure this guy would give us his TV job.

Next, two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, a sesame seed bun and a big fat lawsuit.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Has the McDonald's restaurant chain created a national epidemic of obese children? Don't laugh. Some attorneys in New York have cooked up a class action lawsuit. McDonald's attorney says it's the kind of frivolous lawsuit that shouldn't even be in court. And the company has asked the judge to dismiss it.

We're going to chew on this for a while with plaintiff's attorney John Coale.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: John, how are you?

JOHN COALE, PLAINTIFFS' ATTORNEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CARVILLE: Well, this is what...

NOVAK: Wait a minute, wait a minute...

CARVILLE: Here you go.

NOVAK: It's cold.

COALE: It's cold.

CARVILLE: A good conservative would say, Why doesn't the parent have some responsibility in this? And you know, what I would agree with that.

COALE: They do. It's not an either or situation in this things. Parents have responsibilities.

I've been -- you know, John Banzhaf who is at this university called me about a year ago because he's putting together a team of advocates to look at this issue. And I came in. I thought they wanted me for the plaintiff but they wanted me as my -- for my legal advice. And the fact of the matter is what the problem here is is that children are bombarded with this stuff...

CARVILLE: Right.

COALE: ... from almost two years old. You watch the Saturday morning cartoons. By the time it's about 1:00, these kids are whipped up into a frenzy. They bug their parents. They go down there. There's a playground. There's a "Star Wars" cup. There's toys. There's anything you want to draw children into this whole culture of fast foods.

They go to school. There's Channel 1 fast food ads. They have kiosks in the schools now and they pay the schools kickbacks to get them in there. And that's just not McDonald's. That's Coke. That's Pepsi.

So by the time this kid has any reason to make his own choice, this kid has nothing but fast food, fast food and more fast food.

NOVAK: Mr. Coale, I had two children. And they were under control. We took them to McDonald's sometimes. They didn't pig out at McDonald's. I got...

COALE: Yes, but that was when there was only 20 served.

NOVAK: ... seven -- I've got seven grandchildren. None of them are obese. They're all under control. It is the parent's responsibility. What kind of world are we in when the lawyers are saying, You have to protect the children because the parents can't.

COALE: No, no, it's not an either or situation. The parents have fault here. The parents should show some restraint. But there's also fault here with the fast food industry. NOVAK: I just to say, I have the favorite -- reading the "New York Times," I had one of my favorite quotes of the year.

CARVILLE: OK.

NOVAK: And we're going to put it up on the screen. It's from Israel Bradley (ph) who is a plaintiff's father. "I always believed McDonald's was healthy for my children."

Now what kind if idiot is Israel Bradley?

(LAUGHTER)

COALE: Well, I don't know Mr. Bradley but this is the same type of peole that McDonald's warns that little toys are dangerous. They have to warn people about a lot of things.

You know, this is a country that 30 percent of the kids today don't know where the Pacific Ocean is according to today.

CARVILLE: Right.

COALE: So we have to make allowances for that.

CARVILLE: You and I have one thing in common. That's only one thing. We both went to law school. You're a great lawyer. I was a terrible lawyer. But McDonald's said something today that I could even win. They say that they don't market to children.

COALE: Well, that's crazy.

CARVILLE: Well, let me show you...

COALE: All right, look...

CARVILLE: ... this is a Barbie pack here. Now who is this marketing to? Professional football players or something?

COALE: Yeah, right.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: I'm going to take this home for my little girls and put this in here and take it.

COALE: And they hunted for it.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: Right.

How could McDonald's say with a straight face that they don't market to children?

COALE: Well, they can't. And the thing is that these lawsuits are like -- in the early days of tobacco, everything -- Oh, it's frivolous, it's frivolous.

The way we look at it, we being people who run these kind of issues, are that we're going to go out there and this guy up in New York has a couple of suits, we're going to lose a lot of lawsuits. But I'll tell you something, we sure got everybody's attention here, don't we.

NOVAK: Mr. Coale, yes you do -- all over the world because it's so ridiculous.

Now John Doyle (ph) from the Center for Consumer Freedom, and we're going to put that up on the screen, he said this. And this is what we're getting at, now the real nitty gritty. "As with the other frivolous lawsuits that the trial lawyer brethren have shoved down Americans' throats, this is more about fattening attorney wallets than thinning consumers."

How much money are you going to make on this?

COALE: Probably nothing. I told Bansoff (ph) I'd do it for nothing.

But that frivolous tobacco suit I was in was a $250 billion settlement. I guess the tobacco companies still think it's frivolous. Maybe their stockholders have something to say about that.

NOVAK: You know...

COALE: These are not frivolous suits.

CARVILLE: Right. Of course not. But the point -- I guess I generally support the right of plaintiffs to bring lawsuits, you know what I mean. And...

NOVAK: Because they support the Democratic Party, that's why.

CARVILLE: You know, I support people acting responsibly. You know you guys want -- you don't want corporations to act responsibly, but you want every poor kid out there that's got a snot nose...

NOVAK: These are the -- isn't it true...

CARVILLE: ... or something to do something. Isn't it true that...

NOVAK: ... that this is...

CARVILLE: ... this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ought to act responsibly.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: ... isn't this all liberal Democratic politics, the trial lawyers are the big, big cash cow for the Democratic Party? That's what we're talking about.

COALE: I don't know. I'm here to talk about hamburgers. I don't know.

I'll tell you one thing though is personal responsibility is an issue for these parents and for Arthur Anderson and for Enron and for all of these other corporate office...

CARVILLE: I agree totally. I agree totally...

COALE: ... aren't some big thing in the sky. They're people. And we're seeing that these corporate officers who are taking this stuff, not marketing to kids, where is their responsibility? Show some restraint.

You know in France, McDonald's has warnings all over the place just bring your children here once a week. That's restraint.

NOVAK: Don't they have gram -- how much fat there is in each thing, listed in each McDonald's?

CARVILLE: Sure, if you can find it.

COALE: Yes, if you can find it.

CARVILLE: I just want to say one thing that this man and I have proved one thing. I want to just -- full disclosure. He is the husband of my dear friend who appears on a rival network, Greta van Sustern (ph). And he and I've proved that ugly guys can get beautiful women and marry them.

(LAUGHTER)

CARVILLE: And that is something that is worth saying (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: John Coale, thank you very much.

CARVILLE: Thank you.

NOVAK: Appreciate it.

COALE: All right.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Coming up, it's your turn to "Fireback" at us. One of our viewers is longing for the days when Democrats could take it as well as dish it out.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: It's Firebhack when the viewers "Fireback" at us. It's from Miles Pryor (ph) of Tampa, Florida. "Bob, it's a pleasure to listen to you intelligent arguments. You are so wrong most of the time, but you do it with great style. You're a good Republican."

Thank you, I guess, Miles, but you're a typical Democrat. You don't know right from wrong.

CARVILLE: No, no, we do know right from wrong. And we're right and you're wrong, period.

(LAUGHTER)

"James, by the way, there's a plastic liner in a trash can for your protection or the trash can's?" Jim Humphrey (ph), San Francisco, California.

Well, let's take a look in here and see -- you know, I think it was -- Bob was interviewing the trash can.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I think that was the picture of the year.

CARVILLE: You know, I think I think a little better with that damn thing over my head.

NOVAK: Yes, I wish you'd wear it every night.

CARVILLE: There you go. I should.

NOVAK: OK, the next one is from Dee Smyth (ph) of Tallahassee, Florida. A very intelligent person. "I'm so tired of listening to Tom Daschle wining and complaining about the president and the Republican Party. Now he's complaining about the likes of Rush Limbaugh. My gosh, Tom, grow some thicker skin."

Way to go Dee Smyth (ph).

CARVILLE: That's right. I agree with Senator McCain. It's a circus act. And he knows what he's talking about.

All right. "James, you need to get a radio talk show. You'd be great at it. Here in Kansas, if you want to listen to talk radio, there's nothing by conservatives and Fox Network and Limbaugh. Let's get some balance on the radio. We need someone like you to point out the lies they tell. Barbara Lawson (ph) -- Barbara, I could not deny the television viewing public a look at my beautiful face. It would be a crime to just hear my voice...

NOVAK: I think you...

CARVILLE: ... when they can look at me.

NOVAK: I think you'd fit in very nicely in Kansas.

CARVILLE: There you go.

NOVAK: But here's a question here, please.

CARVILLE: You attack Kansas -- and now you're attacking Kansas.

NOVAK: I didn't attack Kansas. I attacked you. Go ahead.

CARVILLE: I like Kansas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Mike and I'm from Buffalo. And I'd like to know, James, will your trash can be going into the museum with Tim Russert's white board from election 2000?

CARVILLE: No, I think it will just stay there for collecting trash. But you know, it was a lot -- it was a lot of fun doing it. And then we'll have the -- we'll think of some other things to do.

But I appreciate the compliment. Thank you, sir.

NOVAK: Next question.

CARVILLE: Go Bills.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, my name is Jodie Sollup (ph). I'm from Atlantic Beach, New York. And my question is are Democrats losing a shot at the presidency in 2004 by allowing Gore to speak to the Democratic Party's "new vision," quote unquote?

NOVAK: Well, I think every Republican says a little prayer when he goes to bed every night, "Please, God, Al Gore again in 2004."

CARVILLE: This may shock you young lady, but Democrats believe that everybody in America ought to be able to sleep. We are very big defenders of the First Amendment.

NOVAK: Yes...

CARVILLE: And Al Gore, as the former vice president, has every right to speak out just as every American has the right the speak out.

NOVAK: Oh, gag me. Go ahead.

CARVILLE: You always don't want people to talk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Jeff Working (ph). I'm from Washington, D.C. My question is this, we -- aren't frivolous lawsuits good for us? We've got lawyers protecting us from the poisons of cigarettes? Why not hold McDonald's to the same standard?

NOVAK: You know, I tell you I grew up when people used to say -- you know what they used call cigarettes -- nail coughing - coughing nails -- I'll get it right. Coughing nails. Everybody knew they were bad for you. This is just a scam by the lawyers to get big money.

CARVILLE: That's why they're getting all of the money because these comapnies deny that they were bad for you for a long time.

I don't know what it is, why you love powerful people so much, and why you hate little people so much.

NOVAK: Go ahead -- I love freedom.

CARVILLE: I don't understand that.

I love people, not power.

NOVAK: I love freedom; you don't understand that.

Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. I'm James from Omaha, Nebraska. And my comment is this. As long as the Democrats continue to whine and complain and not propose solutions to problems that they're going to continue to lose the support of Americans.

NOVAK: And a big way and as the party in trouble, and he can say it's just...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You know what, you know what from the left I'm James Carville. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT begins right now.

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Issues?; McDonald's Hit With Another Lawsuit>