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American Morning
Interview with Richard Butler
Aired November 26, 2002 - 07:07 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: With the inspections about to begin, we go now to the man who led the U.N. team that left Iraq four years ago.
Joining us again from Sydney, Australia, former chief weapons inspector, Richard Butler.
Welcome back, Richard.
RICHARD BUTLER, FMR. CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: So, Richard, I wanted you to react to a report in "The Washington Post" this morning that basically says that Hans Blix -- quote -- "has expressed sympathy for Iraq's claim that it would not be able to fully comply with the Security Council's demand that it provide a complete declaration of its civilian and military chemical, biological and nuclear programs by the December 8 deadline."
What does that mean?
BUTLER: Well, two things, Paula, and I'm going to be very frank and blunt about this. It is well known in Washington and elsewhere that in the past, Dr. Blix, when he was head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, you know, gave reports on a couple of situations where materials were being diverted to a nuclear weapons program in North Korea, Iran and elsewhere that turned out to be wrong. And people are concerned that he may behave that way again under these circumstances.
I don't believe he will, frankly, but I'm putting it squarely on the table. That is the background to, you know, the questions that are being asked about Dr. Blix. All I've heard him say since the new Security Council resolution on Iraq is that he's going to behave with determination and to get the job done properly.
Now, secondly, as far as the Iraqi declaration is concerned, has he expressed sympathy for the idea that they're going to have a problem with that? I'm not sure that he has. If he has, I respectfully say I disagree.
As I said to you yesterday morning, Saddam Hussein knows exactly what weapons they've got. I don't buy for a moment this whole stuff about thousands of pages and dual-use equipment and so on. Dual-use equipment is an important issue.
But, Paula, the bottom line is this. Read the Security Council resolution. It makes very clear: Iraq must make a declaration by 8 December of its weapons of mass destruction programs, not where it makes aspirin or fertilizer in its chemical factories, its weapons program. And Iraq, up until the present time, has been saying it has no such program.
Now, in great contradiction, it's saying, my god, if you want us to make this declaration, it's going to be thousands of pages, very confusing and so on. Paula, it's nonsense. They have to make a declaration of their weapons program, and it's as simple as that. They know what it is. They must declare it.
ZAHN: Well, is "lying" the same word to use as "contradictions" here?
BUTLER: Iraq has lied to the world for a very long time about its weapons program. All of this stuff about thousands of pages and problems and so on seems to me that they're preparing not to comply with the law once again.
I'll give you one example, when I say they've -- you know, they lied to the world. Paula, in the past, they spent five years telling us that they had no -- and I mean no -- biological weapons program. None whatsoever. When we were able to prove to them that that was not true, and we actually confronted them, I spoke personally with Tariq Aziz about this, what did he say? He said, oops, we lied. We lied, OK?
And then, they said, well, we did have a biological weapons program, but it was only a little teeny one. So, they moved from denial to minimization.
Now, this is a longstanding Iraqi approach, but they can't take that approach this time, Paula. This current resolution of the Security Council is black-on-white. It makes very clear: You will tell the truth or else. And I hope they -- you know, I hope they get that.
ZAHN: But, Richard, as you know, there are a lot of people who believe that these inspections will only be as successful as the leadership of Hans Blix. And the papers this morning are filled with skepticism towards that end.
And in the piece in "The Wall Street Journal" this morning...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... it goes pretty far, where you have the director of the Wisconsin Program on Nuclear Arms Control saying that -- quote -- Hussein -- excuse me -- it says, "Hans Blix has an unsurpassed record of failure of dealing with Saddam Hussein."
BUTLER: Well, yes. Well, I wasn't aware of that from the Wisconsin project. They are people I respect. But you heard what I said a few moments ago, and I -- you know, I'm a bit uncomfortable saying that, because this is the man who succeeded me, and I think it's very tasteless to say, you know, no one could have done the job as I did. I made some mistakes, and you know, I guess Hans might make some, too.
But I did say frankly, and here you are now reporting and others are saying frankly, that there was a track record in the past where Hans Blix, you know, turned a bit of a blind eye to some things that maybe he shouldn't have.
I don't hear him saying that now, and I think it's very important that, you know, people, like the Wisconsin project, "The Wall Street Journal" and so on make clear that -- you know, to him that we are in a very particular situation now. This is, as the Security Council resolution says, Iraq's final opportunity.
And you know, Iraq has to understand that, Hans Blix has to understand that. That it's not a question of reaching diplomatic compromises anymore. It's a question of objective fact about weapons. Iraq has to declare those objectively, the inspectors under Hans Blix have to do their job objectively. Otherwise, there's going to be very serious trouble.
ZAHN: As always, we appreciate your insights. Former chief U.N. weapons inspector Richard Butler, thanks for your time this morning.
BUTLER: Good to talk with you, Paula.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired November 26, 2002 - 07:07 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: With the inspections about to begin, we go now to the man who led the U.N. team that left Iraq four years ago.
Joining us again from Sydney, Australia, former chief weapons inspector, Richard Butler.
Welcome back, Richard.
RICHARD BUTLER, FMR. CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: So, Richard, I wanted you to react to a report in "The Washington Post" this morning that basically says that Hans Blix -- quote -- "has expressed sympathy for Iraq's claim that it would not be able to fully comply with the Security Council's demand that it provide a complete declaration of its civilian and military chemical, biological and nuclear programs by the December 8 deadline."
What does that mean?
BUTLER: Well, two things, Paula, and I'm going to be very frank and blunt about this. It is well known in Washington and elsewhere that in the past, Dr. Blix, when he was head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, you know, gave reports on a couple of situations where materials were being diverted to a nuclear weapons program in North Korea, Iran and elsewhere that turned out to be wrong. And people are concerned that he may behave that way again under these circumstances.
I don't believe he will, frankly, but I'm putting it squarely on the table. That is the background to, you know, the questions that are being asked about Dr. Blix. All I've heard him say since the new Security Council resolution on Iraq is that he's going to behave with determination and to get the job done properly.
Now, secondly, as far as the Iraqi declaration is concerned, has he expressed sympathy for the idea that they're going to have a problem with that? I'm not sure that he has. If he has, I respectfully say I disagree.
As I said to you yesterday morning, Saddam Hussein knows exactly what weapons they've got. I don't buy for a moment this whole stuff about thousands of pages and dual-use equipment and so on. Dual-use equipment is an important issue.
But, Paula, the bottom line is this. Read the Security Council resolution. It makes very clear: Iraq must make a declaration by 8 December of its weapons of mass destruction programs, not where it makes aspirin or fertilizer in its chemical factories, its weapons program. And Iraq, up until the present time, has been saying it has no such program.
Now, in great contradiction, it's saying, my god, if you want us to make this declaration, it's going to be thousands of pages, very confusing and so on. Paula, it's nonsense. They have to make a declaration of their weapons program, and it's as simple as that. They know what it is. They must declare it.
ZAHN: Well, is "lying" the same word to use as "contradictions" here?
BUTLER: Iraq has lied to the world for a very long time about its weapons program. All of this stuff about thousands of pages and problems and so on seems to me that they're preparing not to comply with the law once again.
I'll give you one example, when I say they've -- you know, they lied to the world. Paula, in the past, they spent five years telling us that they had no -- and I mean no -- biological weapons program. None whatsoever. When we were able to prove to them that that was not true, and we actually confronted them, I spoke personally with Tariq Aziz about this, what did he say? He said, oops, we lied. We lied, OK?
And then, they said, well, we did have a biological weapons program, but it was only a little teeny one. So, they moved from denial to minimization.
Now, this is a longstanding Iraqi approach, but they can't take that approach this time, Paula. This current resolution of the Security Council is black-on-white. It makes very clear: You will tell the truth or else. And I hope they -- you know, I hope they get that.
ZAHN: But, Richard, as you know, there are a lot of people who believe that these inspections will only be as successful as the leadership of Hans Blix. And the papers this morning are filled with skepticism towards that end.
And in the piece in "The Wall Street Journal" this morning...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... it goes pretty far, where you have the director of the Wisconsin Program on Nuclear Arms Control saying that -- quote -- Hussein -- excuse me -- it says, "Hans Blix has an unsurpassed record of failure of dealing with Saddam Hussein."
BUTLER: Well, yes. Well, I wasn't aware of that from the Wisconsin project. They are people I respect. But you heard what I said a few moments ago, and I -- you know, I'm a bit uncomfortable saying that, because this is the man who succeeded me, and I think it's very tasteless to say, you know, no one could have done the job as I did. I made some mistakes, and you know, I guess Hans might make some, too.
But I did say frankly, and here you are now reporting and others are saying frankly, that there was a track record in the past where Hans Blix, you know, turned a bit of a blind eye to some things that maybe he shouldn't have.
I don't hear him saying that now, and I think it's very important that, you know, people, like the Wisconsin project, "The Wall Street Journal" and so on make clear that -- you know, to him that we are in a very particular situation now. This is, as the Security Council resolution says, Iraq's final opportunity.
And you know, Iraq has to understand that, Hans Blix has to understand that. That it's not a question of reaching diplomatic compromises anymore. It's a question of objective fact about weapons. Iraq has to declare those objectively, the inspectors under Hans Blix have to do their job objectively. Otherwise, there's going to be very serious trouble.
ZAHN: As always, we appreciate your insights. Former chief U.N. weapons inspector Richard Butler, thanks for your time this morning.
BUTLER: Good to talk with you, Paula.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
