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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Best of Connie Chung
Aired November 29, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT.
From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN HOST: Good evening.
Tonight, some incredible stories, ranging from our exclusive look at how science fiction may be about to radically change family realities to a very funny, very politically incorrect at what happens when man and woman become husband and wife.
Plus, airing for the first time, an all new interview with four Olympic skaters. You remember them, the Canadian pair and the Russian pair and the controversy over who deserved the gold. Well these days, they skate side by side and we've got all four of them. And we'll ask the personal question about each duo that you're always dying to ask.
We're going to start, though, with that science fiction story I mentioned, and it's actually very real. It's a story we brought you earlier this year. It's a story your grandchildren might someday read as history. It's the story of an average American couple, a husband and wife, who want something absolutely normal -- a baby, and they're willing to get it by doing something absolutely revolutionary -- cloning.
If they succeed, next year could see the birth of the first human clone ever. They asked us not to reveal their identities, but they allowed contributing correspondent Michael GUILLEN:, to bring us the exclusive story of their attempt to give birth to the first of a new kind of human being.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL GUILLEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For most people, having a baby is child's play. It comes naturally.
BILL, PLANNING ON HAVING A CLONED CHILD: At times, you feel like you're meaningless, like you've left nothing on earth.
KATHY, PLANNING ON HAVING A CLONED CHILD: It's like this empty feeling. It's a hollowness. We want our family. We want to complete that circle.
GUILLEN:: Bill and Kathy want a baby so badly, they're going to have one cloned, using her DNA. It means flying in the face of huge public, political, religious and scientific opposition. But they don't care.
BILL: It's a concern, absolutely.
KATHY: And that's why we're in shadow, because we don't want to hurt that little life that comes into this world.
GUILLEN (on camera): Why is it so important then to tell your story to the world, Bill?
BILL: Education, so people slowly, slowly, or faster or faster, get to know what this is all about.
GUILLEN:: And that's why you're willing to risk going public with your story?
KATHY: Absolutely.
GUILLEN:: But you haven't even told your mother?
KATHY: No. I will, when the time is right, once we know that there is a baby coming. My mother will be so excited, she'll be jumping through hoops.
BILL: I think my mom will say, leave it up to you, Bill, you'll find a way.
GUILLEN:: You think they would accept and be loving of a child that was born this way?
KATHY: Why not?
BILL: I think so.
KATHY: A little, sweet, delicious baby, what could you not love?
GUILLEN:: Bill and Kathy's unusual story began when they met in 1989. He was a 40-something divorcee. She was a 30-something career woman looking for Mr. Right. Back then, they had no idea that having a delicious little baby would turn out to be so incredibly difficult. Back then, everything seemed so perfect.
KATHY: When I met Bill, he put his arm around me in six minutes and asked me what I was going to do for the rest of my life.
GUILLEN:: Within six minutes of meeting you, he put his arm around you? Bill...
BILL: I think it was actually five and a half minutes. But within six minutes, I knew that Kathy was the woman I wanted.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): In 1993, Bill and Kathy got married and immediately set out to have a baby.
KATHY: We first tried doing it the natural way. And when that wasn't happening, Bill suggested that we go to the doctor. GUILLEN:: The doctor put Kathy on Clomid, a drug designed to increase the odds of having a natural pregnancy. But after seven months of trying, nothing. Partly the problem was Kathy's eggs. They're too old and brittle. And partly, it's Bill's sperm.
BILL: I've had problems. I had three (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You know, it's when -- you have a vein going to that area and raise the temperature too high, so the sperm goes down.
GUILLEN:: Bill and Kathy decided to try artificial insemination. The man's sperm is collected and manually injected into the women's uterus. The woman's body is primed beforehand with a cocktail of potent fertility drugs. The injections were scary and painful enough, Kathy says, but even worse were the side effects.
KATHY: You go crazy. You just...
GUILLEN:: What do you mean?
BILL: The drugs would make her crazy, paranoid, insecure. You could say it's rainy outside, rainy outside, why are you talking about rain, because you're so on edge.
GUILLEN:: Worst of all, after 17 artificial inseminations, still no baby.
(on camera): At any point during that, did you ever ask yourself, why are we putting ourselves through this?
KATHY: Absolutely, all the time.
BILL: Why? We want a child. We want a child so badly. But is it worth all this anguish? Absolutely, Michael. We said it over and over to ourselves many times. This is the last time we're doing it, this is the last time, this is it.
KATHY: After each one, I said, that's it, I'm done. And then a month or so later, we both looked at each other and said, want to do it again?
GUILLEN: (voice-over): Next, Bill and Kathy tried in-vitro fertilization, or IVF. A woman's eggs are harvested. A man's sperm is collected. Then, the two are brought together in a petri dish. The fertilized eggs are then implanted into the woman, with hopes that at least one will take. Bill and Kathy tried IVF seven times.
KATHY: It's almost as if someone is playing a big joke on us. When I had a great egg month, Bill had a bad sperm month. When he had a great sperm month, I had a bad egg month. I mean, we just couldn't seem to make egg salad together at the same time.
GUILLEN: (on camera): Tell me about the last time, the last IVF procedure.
KATHY: That was the killer.
GUILLEN:: Tell me.
That one, that one was a great egg month, a great sperm month. Everything was moving along rather well.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): It was December 1998. The doctors harvested four eggs from Kathy, fertilized them with Bill's sperm, then placed all four embryos back into her uterus.
BILL: He did it so slowly and so carefully and so delicately, I was sure that two were going to attach, and to make it as children.
GUILLEN:: For two whole weeks, Kathy stayed in bed.
KATHY: We figured if I stayed completely still, these little babies have to hold. And we named them. We figured if we named them, they were little people, they were going to become little babies and they were going to be born.
GUILLEN:: On New Year's Eve, the phone rang with the news.
KATHY: Bill answered the phone and got the news. And it was very, very sad. Saying they were sorry, but your pregnancy test came back negative.
BILL: And that was five years -- felt really devastated.
GUILLEN:: For the next four years, Bill and Kathy gave it a rest. They'd run out of options.
But then one day Bill read this book on cloning. Then he happened to see a newspaper article about a cloning doctor based in Lexington, Kentucky. His name was Panos Zavos.
BILL: They tracked him down, and I called him and I called him and I called him.
GUILLEN: (on camera): He wasn't returning your calls?
BILL: Nope. He finally picked up the phone, and he said, I see you've been calling a number of times and you're quite persistent.
I said, correct.
PANOS ZAVOS, PHD, EMBRYOLOGIST: Persistence always pace.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): Dr. Zavos runs a conventional fertility clinic in Lexington. He has a PhD in reproductive medicine. He's a professor emeritus at the University of Kentucky, a member of the American Society of Reproductive Medicine and an outspoken defender of human cloning.
He's testified before Congress, before the National Academy of Sciences, and made headlines worldwide by claiming he and a secret team of doctors are only months away from trying to clone a human baby. ZAVOS: The public realize that this is not as monstrous as it may sound. Once they see a baby dressed in pink or blue, they will say, what a wonderful thing.
GUILLEN:: Dr. Zavos says he's got a waiting list of some 5,000 desperately infertile couples, but only six will be cloned in the first round. That includes Bill and Kathy.
At their advanced age, he says, time is of the essence.
ZAVOS: If they don't reproduce within the next five years, the chance of having quality time with this child will diminish significantly.
BILL: I think we're doing medical history. I think we're on the cutting edge and on the beginning of a brave new world.
GUILLEN:: It all begins next month or so when Dr. Zavos tells Bill and Kathy, pack your bags, you're flying to a secret overseas lab where cloning is legal.
KATHY: I don't believe he's told anybody where it is. And he wants to make sure that the privacy of it is kept as such so that the paparazzi don't get in the way of this scientific procedure.
BILL: The only thing he does say is that we're going to be flying someplace warm.
GUILLEN:: At the secret lab, a team of doctors will take a plug of Kathy's tissue and harvest her DNA. Also, they'll take the egg from a younger women and then replace its DNA with Kathy's. They'll implant that egg into a surrogate mother. If the pregnancy holds, nine months later, out will come Kathy's nearly identical body double.
(on camera): Why the decision to clone Kathy and not you, Bill?
BILL: Kathy suffered far greater than I did. She went through 24 months of drugs, of injectable drugs which could possibly cause cancer, and also, I think I'd rather have a girl than a boy. As simple as that. And God willing, if this works, maybe two years from now, we'll clone me.
KATHY: Why not? Instant family.
GUILLEN:: Why not just adopt?
KATHY: Well, we have thought about that. You can adopt a baby overseas, and then in a lot of countries, what happens is by the time you get the baby, they've been so messed up in the orphanage where they are that you are taking on a health hazard.
GUILLEN:: But isn't that an argument for all the more wanting to adopt a child like that, to show them some love and kindness?
KATHY: Yes, you're right. You're right about that.
BILL: But there is also nothing wrong with wanting your own, and having that right.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): But what about the medical risks involved? Scientists are finding that animal clones are often born with awful defects. Doctor Zavos claims it's just the result of sloppy cloning.
ZAVOS: There are bad mechanics and good mechanics. There are bad doctors and good doctors. There are good electricians and bad electricians. We are going to hire the good mechanics, the good doctors and the good electricians to do this. Therefore, our team believes in what we're doing, and I think we're going to hit a home run.
GUILLEN:: His team, he says, plans to use the latest prenatal technology to ensure a healthy birth.
ZAVOS: We have ultrasonic equipment with computers attached to them, that they measure different things and different growth measurements from the head to the toe, and everything in between.
BILL: We're not going to give birth to a monster or an abnormal child. If there is serious abnormality, absolutely we will -- and Dr. Zavos concurs that we will abort.
GUILLEN: (on camera): And when you said the word "abort," you know, lots of people are going think, oh my gosh, you're piling one abomination on top of another.
KATHY: Well, at least they'll have stem cells to possibly help improve someone's life who is having a problem.
GUILLEN:: So you would harvest stem cells from the aborted fetus for purposes of research? But you know how controversial that is, too.
KATHY: Well, I'm a controversial person. I'm not politically correct. I never have been. I never will be.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): But there is yet another objection to this procedure. Even when animal clones seem to be born healthy, time delayed defects often rear their heads. The famous cloned sheep Dolly, for example, appears to be developing premature arthritis. Dr. Zavos disputes the evidence, but he admits cloning is risky.
ZAVOS: For me to say that there are no risks involved, that would be a pure lie. And for me to say I'm not willing to take the risks, that would be finding me as a chicken. I'm neither one of the two. I'm a risk-taker, but at the same time, I'm a very cautious individual.
GUILLEN: (on camera): As older parents, how are you going to cope with the child who may evidence some of these delayed birth defects?
KATHY: We'll face it and we'll deal with it.
BILL: If anyone can face and deal with it, it's us.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): Bill and Kathy are equally confident they'll be able to deal with success.
(on camera): Suppose you succeed. Suppose you have a child through this procedure. Will you raise it in secret? Or will you go public?
KATHY: We'll tell the world that this child was conceived through cloning when it's safe for the child, when the political climate and the emotional climate will be accepting.
GUILLEN:: What will you the tell the child herself? Would you tell her that she is a clone?
KATHY: Eventually, yes.
BILL: I think I would just tell the child that she was born by an in vitro process, without getting into specifics until the child is an adult.
GUILLEN:: What if she just gets angry at you? Why did you bring me into the world this way, I'm a freak? I'm completely different than any other human being who has ever lived on the face of the earth. Are you prepared that this child could be angry at you for bringing her into the world this way?
KATHY: She's going to be treated like a very special person from day one. And she's going to be loved, loved and loved, and she's not going to ever feel like a freak.
BILL: Absolutely not.
GUILLEN:; What do you tell the child's doctor? I mean, you can't keep that secret from a doctor.
KATHY: I never thought of that. We'll figure that out, one step at a time.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): Another thing Bill an Kathy haven't figured out yet is how to pay Dr. Zavos. It can cost up to $80,000, depending on whether an egg donor or surrogate mother are involved.
(on camera): You are working class folks, you're hard working people. Where are you going to get that money?
KATHY: I don't know.
BILL: All our savings, credit cards, borrowing, begging and stealing.
KATHY: We're not going to steal.
(LAUGHTER)
GUILLEN:: Figuratively speaking, I understood. But I mean, seriously, how far would you be willing to go to get this done? Would you be willing, say, to mortgage your home?
BILL: I would be. She wouldn't be.
KATHY: I don't want to end up without a roof over our heads.
GUILLEN:: I know there are going to be some people who will listen and they'll say, we don't all get what we want in life. And part of maturity is accepting that. Do you feel in your heart of hearts that you're being a little bit immature, maybe a little irresponsible?
KATHY: Absolutely not.
GUILLEN:: ... by not accepting and just moving on?
KATHY: No, no, I don't think there is any immaturity here. I mean, come on, this is the future, and you know something? If God didn't want us to learn how to do all these things, then God would not have enabled the scientists to be able to move on and learn and do.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): In fact, Bill and Kathy believe it's their divine destiny to have a cloned baby.
KATHY: I think that God really wants us to do this, that it is the next step. I can't imagine any other reason why we haven't had a child, other than this is what we were meant to do.
BILL: We realize there are a lot of people against it for whatever reason, and hopefully they'll be educated and understand and be sympathetic, and change. I really hope so. I really would like their approval, but we're going to do it regardless.
GUILLEN: (on camera): You're willing to risk public opinion, scientific opinion, you're willing to risk being recognized and the secret getting out, and maybe turning your lives upside down, right? I mean, are you prepared for that?
KATHY: Oh, my life is always upside down every day anyway, so what's the difference.
GUILLEN: (voice-over): And what if, after all this, they still don't get a baby? Then will they finally call it quits? Well...
KATHY: Yes. We will call it a day at that point. We'll say, OK, we tried.
GUILLEN: (on camera): It will be the end of the road for Bill and Kathy?
BILL: Maybe we'll try it once or twice more, but we're not going to try it forever.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE) CHUNG: Whether you are rooting for Bill and Kathy or rooting against them, the reality is, what they're doing is perfectly legal. President Bush and most of Congress oppose it, but they have not made cloning a federal crime. In any case, Bill and Kathy are pursuing their plan outside the U.S.
And when we come back, you'll meet the man who is bucking the system to make a baby in a way no one ever has before. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Contributing correspondent Michael Guillen just introduced us to Bill and Kathy, who want a child so badly they're willing to have that child be the first human clone in history. But I also wanted to talk to the doctor, who is spearheading the effort to create a human clone, Panos Zavos, scientific director of the Kentucky Center for Reproductive Medicine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: First, Dr. Zavos, I'll try to explain in the simplest way so I hope that the viewers can understand. A normal in vitro fertilization, you take an egg from the woman, the sperm from the man, put in it a dish and it unites to create an embryo, which you then put in the woman.
ZAVOS: Yes, that's correct.
CHUNG: Now, this cloning process, you take an egg from the woman and you change the DNA...
ZAVOS: You remove the DNA.
CHUNG: And put new DNA in.
ZAVOS: New DNA, which comes from the donor.
CHUNG: From the donor, and that's all do you. It becomes an embryo, no sperm.
ZAVOS: No sperm involved.
CHUNG: No sperm involved.
Now, most people would say, I think: That's not natural. That's weird. And that's why I think critics say to you, you're going to create a freak.
ZAVOS: Not true, of course. And, you know, they used to say the same thing about in vitro when we decided to do in vitro 25 years ago, that creating a baby in a petri dish or in a test tube is unheard of.
And, of course, they were saying exactly the same things, the same arguments to Bob Edwards, the gentleman that developed this technology in 1978 when Louise Brown was born, that he was going to create freaks. CHUNG: Yes.
ZAVOS: He was going to create people that don't belong in this world.
CHUNG: But how do you know that that egg with the changed DNA is going to grow into a normal human being? You don't know that.
ZAVOS: Well, the results of various experiments that we have executed plus the good results -- and I must indicate here, the good results from many other studies that have been done with success rates up to 100 percent of normal offsprings born in animal models, OK.
CHUNG: Animals. Only animals, not human beings.
ZAVOS: Only animals. That's correct -- indicate that this particular procedure can work in the human with less difficulties than we see in animals.
The reason for that, obviously, is that we in the human arena will be doing human IVF, that's manipulating the sperm and the eggs and the dishes and the petri dishes and the test tubes for almost 25 years.
CHUNG: But a lot of mistakes were made with animals, right?
ZAVOS: Yes.
CHUNG: Isn't the success rate something like 1 percent?
ZAVOS: One percent when Dolly was produced.
CHUNG: Right. Dolly the sheep.
ZAVOS: But today there are studies that -- they show successes of 30 and 80 percent of births from embryo transfers.
CHUNG: Still animals, right?
ZAVOS: Still animals.
CHUNG: OK, let's stop that for a minute and go over to Michael.
I think the big curiosity for everyone is, will this little girl that Kathy hopefully will have, will she look exactly like Kathy?
GUILLEN: Well, it's an interesting question. Nearly so; about 99 percent so.
The reason she won't be identical-identical is because there is a little bit of DNA left over in the egg that is taken from the younger woman.
CHUNG: Because Kathy doesn't have good eggs, so they're going to take a donor egg?
GUILLEN: Correct. Because Kathy's eggs are old...
CHUNG: And, OK, and that donor egg's DNA is going to be taken out and Kathy's DNA is going to be put in.
GUILLEN: Correct. And even though you have removed the nucleus from the donor woman's egg, nevertheless there is a little residual DNA we call mitochondrial DNA that is left over in the outer portions of the egg. So even though you've removed the nucleus, that mitochondrial DNA remains, and it will contribute about 1 percent of the total DNA.
So it will be Kathy's DNA...
CHUNG: From the donor egg?
GUILLEN: Correct. So it will be Kathy's DNA, which is 99 percent of the total, and then 1 percent from the donor mother.
Another variation...
CHUNG: How about -- let me ask you this: How about personality, sense of humor, the same -- liking the same kinds of food?
GUILLEN: That's the $64,000 question, although it's very interesting.
I covered the story of the Texas A&M scientists who recently cloned a cat, which is a fairly complex animal. And before that they cloned a bull, a brahma bull is that he has very much the same mannerisms as the old, original bull.
But no one can tell you. I mean, no one can tell you how much your personality is encoded in the genes. That's the $64,000,000 question, among other things.
CHUNG: Why are you doing this? Because 85 percent of Americans, according to surveys, don't think it should be done.
ZAVOS: Well, obviously they don't. And some of the research that has been done and some of the understandings that we have is that some of those people are against it because of fear of the unknown.
And I think that by people knowing about this and what the complexities may be and the benefits will be, I think more people will accept it.
The same ratio of opposition took place back when the IVF business began.
CHUNG: I don't know, you said that before. And I understand that; it's just that, I think with IVF, wasn't there experimentation? For this...
ZAVOS: Very little.
CHUNG: Your team -- oh, good dear. Well your team -- has your team actually experimented with human eggs?
ZAVOS: Well, we work with human eggs every day.
CHUNG: Right. But you haven't done cloning with human eggs.
ZAVOS: No. And, of course, we don't believe in experimenting with human eggs or embryos until we're ready to execute the real thing, because we're simply -- we are opposed to experimenting with human embryos for the idea of creating human embryos and killing them.
CHUNG: Would you allow me to be devil's advocate and say, well, then, aren't Kathy and Bill going to end up being guinea pigs?
ZAVOS: Well, you can say that. I think that when a new technology is pioneered and is developed, you can say that the people that receive this treatment first are, obviously, guinea pigs to a certain degree.
But, you know, that's one way of looking at it. I don't think that they do feel that way. And we don't feel like that any of those people are guinea pigs. They're just, really, people that are going to go first, and then -- during the first team, we have six or seven couples. Then as soon as we complete this team, we're going to go onto the next team, which may be seven to 10 couples.
So somebody has got to go first. But we feel like that the level of confidence of accomplishing this particular puzzle here is very good. And our team feels very good about coming up with healthy children born from such effort.
CHUNG: All right. You say that you're going to check for abnormalities, right?
ZAVOS: Yes.
CHUNG: But, as I understand it, Kathy and Bill will, after they've taken care of what they need to do, which is provide the DNA -- Kathy's DNA -- they'll fly back to the United States and just wait. And it's the surrogate who has the baby in her.
And even though -- I mean, nobody will necessarily know that she's got a cloned baby in her stomach, but doesn't she have to have this special medical care to make sure that she doesn't have an abnormality?
ZAVOS: Oh, absolutely. We do have the experts -- maternal fetal medicine experts that will monitor those pregnancies from day one of conception until the birth of that child.
And we intend to study the behavior of those fetuses, the growth, the measurements, the deficiencies, the assets -- whatever -- and then, of course, learn from those procedures as such.
Now, this is something that that the animal cloners have never even dreamed of doing. And this is really why it gives us a tremendous advantage over the animal cloners, is that in the animal business of reproduction, we only do it right, we cannot afford to do it wrong.
CHUNG: Michael Guillen and Panos Zavos, thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: A few weeks ago, Kathy's cells were harvested for their DNA. Doctors hope to create an embryo this year, or early next year. You can bet we'll hear about it if they succeed.
Still ahead, for the firs time, our all-new interview: The Olympic skaters whose battle for the gold led to a global controversy. Canadians and Russians, once rivals, now side by side. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Do you remember Jamie Sale and David Pelletier? They gave an unforgettable performance at the Olympics, and then the judges turned in an unforgettable performance of their own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): February 11, 2002. The Salt Lake City Winter Olympics.
The pairs skating competition becomes the unlikely site of international controversy. After a crowd-pleasing, seemingly flawless performance, boos ring out when the Canadian pair of Jamie Sale and David Pelletier received lower than expected scores.
And despite an imperfect performance, the Russian pair, Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze, win a 5-4 judges' decision and take the gold medal.
ELENA BEREZHNAYA, RUSSIAN PAIRS SKATER: Somebody have to win. Somebody have to lose. And that's rules. I don't know. And just one gold medal have.
DAVID PELLETIER, CANADIAN PAIRS SKATER: You can argue all your life about what happened that night, but you cannot argue against the fact that there was something going on with the judges.
CHUNG: But the controversy is just beginning. In Canada, Moscow, and worldwide the scandal is front-page news.
JAMIE SALE, CANADIAN PAIRS SKATER: Everything always comes out in the wash. And we've had the same response all along, you know, and we just did our job at the Olympics. We did the best that we could.
CHUNG: Reports of collusion and vote swapping among judges.
PELLETIER: Wherever there's power, wherever there's money involved, there's always some bad people around.
CHUNG: The result? A compromised solution. For one of the few times in Olympic competition and the first time in Olympic figure skating, both pairs teams win the gold. No silver medal is awarded. (MUSIC)
CHUNG: Today the Canadian team has gone professional.
The Russian team is keeping the door open for a possible Olympic return.
(MUSIC)
CHUNG: But for now the four skaters share the same ice at ice shows. This time, there are no judges. They're only competing for applause.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: So how are all of them doing now? We'll hear from all four of them right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We just took a look at this year's big Olympic controversy, which ended with a new ruling that the gold medal- winning Russian pair, Anton and Elena, should share the top spot with the Canadian pair, David and Jamie.
Recently, I spoke with them from their tour in Ft. Myers, Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: All four of them are with me now, Jamie and David, Elena and Anton. Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.
Now, after the Salt Lake Olympics everyone seems to think that the four of you will be linked forever. What do you think? Jamie?
SALE: Well, I think that we definitely are linked, obviously by the history books. But as far as the skating goes, everybody remembers both of our great performances at the Olympics, and we're two totally different pair teams and, you know, we hope that people will remember us for our individual skates at the Olympics.
CHUNG: I think they will.
How would you describe your relationship? You know, all of you skaters are so gracious. I think even if you did hate each other you wouldn't say so, Right? Anton?
ANTON SIKHARULIDZE, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: We've been friends even before the Olympic Games, and we know each other many years, and we always been friendly. And now I think we're more friendly than it was before, because we spend more time together and we're working together. And I look forward to be even more friendly with guys than now. Because they're cool and we're skating in the same ice show. CHUNG: I guess the positive out of what happened was that judging will change, that the scoring system will change, for instance. If it's a triple toe loop and that has a base score of 4.5, a perfect one -- this is too confusing, isn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
SALE: Honestly, it's really complicated for everybody, and I think that when you've got judges involved, it's always going to be somewhat subjective, and everybody's got their favorite or somebody that they like more or whatever. And it's been there since the beginning, and I think it will always be there.
CHUNG: Did you find all the celebrity a bit either overwhelming or actually annoying in some way? Jamie?
SALE: It's never annoying. I think the hardest thing was the fact that we were still Jamie and David, and we just went to the Olympics and did our job, and our lives really did change instantly.
CHUNG: Would you allow me to ask a personal question? Whether or not you and...
SALE: Depends.
CHUNG: Whether you and David, what do you think, do you think you and David will get married, have children?
SALE: Oh, tell me about your relationship. We haven't heard much about you lately.
CHUNG: I'm married and...
SALE: I know who you're married to.
CHUNG: You do? And we have a little boy, and he's 7 years old.
SALE: Oh, wow. Well, it's definitely a plan.
PELLETIER: Is it?
SALE: No. I mean, like in the future. I mean, not...
PELLETIER: We're the best of friends. And...
CHUNG: No, but...
PELLETIER: But so far, I mean, yes, if it happens, great.
SALE: She's recommending kids and everything, and I think that...
PELLETIER: Oh, yeah, I want to have at least five so I can have my hockey line, and they're all going to go to the Olympics in hockey this time, not in figure skating. SALE: But right now we're enjoying everything and we're good friends, and that's the way it is for now. Don't worry. We'll let you know.
CHUNG: Anton and Elena, you're not a couple, right?
SIKHARULIDZE: No.
CHUNG: So do you have significant others back home?
SIKHARULIDZE: I think it's supposed to be back home, not here.
CHUNG: Oh, well, excuse me. Elena?
BEREZHNAYA: I can say same thing right now also.
CHUNG: Jamie, are you going to miss the thrill of competition?
SALE: You know what I'm going to miss, actually, the most is the feeling I always had, even though when I was skating and competing, I used to tell myself, why am I doing this to myself? Because you'd feel almost like you're going to be sick.
But I miss the adrenaline. I'm going to miss competing. But what I liked the most about -- what I liked the most about competing was performing. And now that's all I have to do, and it's so much more fun.
CHUNG: Thank you so much for being with us. I really enjoyed talking to you. I want to hear progress reports on your personal lives and your professional lives. All right?
SALE: OK.
PELLETIER: Thank you.
CHUNG: Great. Thank you, Jamie and David, Elena and Anton. Thanks for being with us.
SIKHARULIDZE: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Don't go away. We're skating over to a new a pair, a pair of guys who have some advice about marriage, and women that you just won't believe. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: It's the day after Thanksgiving, and you've probably been spending lots of time with your family. So we really don't want this next segment to start any fights. But you've got to hear what these guys say about women once they get married. That's women once they get married. As politically incorrect as it may be, and as much as I hate to admit it, they may just be on to something. In their book, "Married to Mommy," they claim that when some women become mothers, they cut their hair, they quit wearing lingerie, and maybe worst of all, they just stop having fun.
In other words, they become a mommy to their husbands too. You don't buy it? Well, listen to what they had to say when I interviewed them earlier this year.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now are the authors of "Married to Mommy," combat-ready guys Jeffrey Bakeman and Brian Kringbring. Hey, guys, how are you?
BRIAN KRINGBRING, MARRIED FOR 33 YEARS: Great. How are you, Connie?
CHUNG: Terrific.
JEFFREY BAKEMAN, MARRIED FOR 22 YEARS: How are you doing, Connie?
CHUNG: Good, good, good. Now, tell me, what is a mommy?
KRINGBRING: Well, a mommy is a former fun-loving girlfriend that after marriage somehow morphs into a perpetually practical, overly controlling mommy.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Oh, I think I know what you mean. I resemble that remark! You know?
BAKEMAN: Not at all.
CHUNG: Now tell me this -- can you tell if a girlfriend has mommy tendencies, or can you actually identify it in a wife?
KRINGBRING: Well, yes, you can. There are several warning signs. And in our book, we have identified them. Sometimes it can be as benign as her doing all the laundry or doing all the cooking, but then, and that's easy to get used to. But that's a very slippery slope, because pretty soon she's going to be controlling all aspects of your life from who you go see, what time you come in, to what you think and what you do.
BAKEMAN: And what you remember, actually. You can actually be told what you remember by mommies, which is a scary thought.
The other thing, Connie, you've asked about girlfriends, and we have a lot of questions coming in on our Web site, marriedtomommy.com, from guys who are not married and they are very interested in knowing, how do we steer clear from the higher levels of mommies? And it's very difficult, because the true mommy is trained to disguise herself as a non-mommy until a few years after the wedding bells have taken place.
CHUNG: Jeff, is every wife a mommy? BAKEMAN: Oh, not at all. You know, and it's not limited necessarily just to wives. There's -- there's a little mommy in all wives, but not all wives are mommies. Number one. Number two, again, there are people in live-in relationships or boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, where all of a sudden, boom, out pops the mommy, and a guy is just rained upon with mommy moments.
CHUNG: Brian, can a mommy revert back to being that fun-loving girlfriend? Is this syndrome reversible?
KRINGBRING: Sadly, no.
(LAUGHTER)
KRINGBRING: And that's why we wrote the book. The best you can do with a mommy is break even. And the book is basically a survival guide, filled with hints and tips on how to make your marriage to mommy a little more survivable.
CHUNG: Jeff, how did we become-- we women -- become afflicted with this syndrome?
BAKEMAN: Well, some of it is genetic. It's just natural, I think, for women. They are so much more powerful and smarter than men in general, that they can outthink, outlast, outplan, outmarket, outmaneuver men.
CHUNG: You are very bright, Jeff.
BAKEMAN: Absolutely true. I believe it to the marrow of my bones. And it's taught to me on a daily basis. Not necessarily at home.
CHUNG: Are you two married to mommies?
KRINGBRING: You know, surprisingly not.
CHUNG: Oh, please! Give me a break!
BAKEMAN: Connie, Connie...
CHUNG: You are so browbeaten you won't even say that you're married to mommies!
BAKEMAN: Connie, unbelievably, we are not married to mommies.
KRINGBRING: Connie, we may be dumb but we're not stupid.
CHUNG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do agree with you. I think you are correct. However, I will say that all of you want to marry your mothers, and you look for women who will mommy you. And when you get sicky-pooh, I can't believe how much babying you want. Oh, I don't feel good. Can I have some chicken soup, you know? So it's your fault, because you -- you find women who are just like your mommies who will mother you. KRINGBRING: Well, in many cases that's true. Many times a husband is a -- an unwitting co-conspirator. I mean, after marriage he thinks he has got his girlfriend all wrapped up and she's taking care of his every whim. But soon that -- that taking care of his every whim can become a cold, damp, cloistering blanket of controlling overattention, and that's -- that's what we're concerned with here. It's not every woman, not every wife, and not every -- every mommy is like this. There are -- there are gradations of mommies.
BAKEMAN: There are different levels of mommies.
CHUNG: There are major mommies and minor mommies, right?
BAKEMAN: There's minor mommies and there's major mommies, and of course you can take our test on the Web site, or read the book. Did you see that?
CHUNG: Yes, I did.
BAKEMAN: And in the book, you can take the test and try to determine what level of mommy you may be working with. Of course, the top level mommy is a tsunami mommy, which is something that should be avoided at all costs. And if you are dealing with a tsunami mommy, head for high ground.
CHUNG: I get it. I get it big time. Hey, you know what? I think this is a terrific book. I am going to buy it for all my girlfriends and I'm going to give it...
BAKEMAN: Wait a minute, are you going to give it to women?
This thing is backfiring on us.
CHUNG: What can I tell you. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you so much for writing this very enlightening book. I'm going to take it to bed with me.
BAKEMAN: Available on Amazon.com.
KRINBRING: And thank you for having us, Connie.
BAKEMAN: Thanks, Connie.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Their book is now in its second printing, but on the other hand, I suspect that they are in the dog house now. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We'll be right back, but first, here's tonight's "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" update.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kitty Pilgrim with this "MONEYLINE" update. Despite ending the trading day lower, the markets managed to log their eighth straight winning week.
For the day, the Dow dropped 35 points, the Nasdaq lost 9, and the S&P 500 slipped 2 1/2. Shares of United Airlines plunged after its mechanics rejected a pay cut, pushing the airline a step closer to bankruptcy.
Watch "MONEYLINE" weeknights at 6:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN. CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be back in 90 seconds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: And that's our program for tonight. We'll be back on Monday and hope to see you then. "LARRY KING" is next. Thank you for joining us and for all of us at CNN, good night and have a great weekend.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
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