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CNN SHOWDOWN: IRAQ
Interview with Norman Solomon, Jonah Goldberg
Aired December 3, 2002 - 12:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: U.N. weapons inspectors say Iraq has been cooperative, but the Bush administration is by no means convinced. Many experts say what happens next depends on what happens this weekend.
Sounding off right now, from San Francisco, the syndicated columnist, Norman Solomon and here in Washington, Jonah Goldberg with National Review Online, also a regular panelist on CNN's Late Edition's final round.
Thanks, gentlemen, for joining us. Jonah, if the Iraqis continue to cooperate, as they apparently are, right now, based on everything we're hearing from the U.N. inspectors, it puts the Bush administration in, let us say, an awkward position.
Jonah Goldberg, I guess Jonah can't hear me. But let me ask me Norman if you can hear me -- can you hear me, Norman?
NORMAN SOLOMON, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Yes, I can.
BLITZER: Well, what about that? The Bush administration would seem to be in an awkward position, if the Iraqis continue to cooperate, as they have been, at least during this first week.
SOLOMON: It is an awkward position when the Bush administration really does not want to take "yes" for an answer. We had the president saying that the signs are not encouraging. I think actually what is really discouraging is the stance of Bush and Cheney and the rest of the team which has been throwing cold water on what appears to be a surprisingly smooth, and so far very successful inspection operation. Now, I was in Baghdad in September, and at some meetings with Tariq Aziz, and other Iraqi officials. It was clear that they were hesitant at that point to allow unfettered access.
They have gone that extra mile, the presidential palace being inspected this morning, unprecedented access. Really, the U.N. inspectors having run of the country with very sophisticated surveillance equipment.
So I think the real question is whether the president means what he says when he said today he wants peace and security. It seems more likely from all indications that the administration wants war that will create great insecurity for the region and beyond.
BLITZER: All right. Jonah Goldberg, I assume you can hear me right now, but what Norman Solomon just said was why can't the Bush administration take yes for an answer from the Iraqis? They're cooperating. Why not leave it at that?
GOLDBERG: Well, it seems to me that the only reason we've had the progress that we have had so far is precisely because the Bush administration has taken a hard line, has shown that it is very serious about being committed to actually using force if necessary, including sending troops and equipment to the region, working out these deals. So Mr. Solomon, exactly right that the Bush administration is firmly intending to go to war no matter what, but even if it weren't firmly intending to go to war no matter what, it would have to take this line because this line is the only thing that got inspectors back in there in the first place.
BLITZER: Norman Solomon, he makes a valid point. If the Bush administration weren't making these threats, do you believe the Iraqis would be cooperating as they are?
SOLOMON: Well, I think they certainly are under pressure. I think what is clear and the key point now is that they are cooperating. They have gotten to this point, and it's enormous U.N. pressure as well, because the U.S. felt compelled to at least go through the Security Council.
I think it's very important, whether government officials or pundits or others are addressing this use of force question, which is a phrase that kind of rolls off the tongue. What are we talking about here? The Medact (ph) organization, a medical group, worldwide global health monitoring organization based in London, did a report last month saying that if a regime change war is undertaken by the United States, the casualties -- the deaths will range between 48,000 and 260,000. That's up to a quarter of a million people or more killed during the war or its immediate aftermath, and let me quote from the report. The majority of casualties will be civilians. I think that's worth repeating. The majority of casualties will be civilians. Now, what kind of message is that from the Bush administration against terrorism and against violence for political ends?
BLITZER: Jonah Goldberg, do you accept that assumption in that report on these huge casualties, including a lot of children, if there were an effort to go forward with so-called regime change in Baghdad?
GOLDBERG: Frankly, I don't. I mean, I haven't looked at the exact report, and I think that there are a lot of groups out there that inflate a lot of these numbers precisely because they're against the war no matter what. We certainly heard a lot of that around on the table last time. Before the Gulf War, we were told there were going to be tens of thousands of casualties. But it would also be silly to say that there wouldn't be casualties. Of course, there would be.
The question is whether or not you're willing to go through with this anyway. And to me, it seems like a legitimate thing to do. The Iraqi regime is going to continue to brutalize its own people, it is going to continue to be a threat to the region, and the logic of this says, well, it's not worth having casualties now and solving the problem in the long run. It's rather just let this be a festering problem forever. BLITZER: Let's get to some e-mails. And I want to read this one we just got from California for you, Jonah, and then I'll let Norman respond.
"With the December 8 deadline approaching and inspections going well, why is the U.S. still making war plans and conducting flights in the no-fly zones? All this does is make the U.S. look more and more like the aggressor to the Muslim world and to Europe. I support the president, but do we really need to look so obviously like we're hunkering for war?"
Go ahead, Jonah.
GOLDBERG: Well, again, Mr. Solomon talked about how we got all this U.N. pressure on Iraq also. Well, that U.N. pressure on Iraq came from precisely the fact that the United States was going to talk about taking unilateral action and using military force.
This sort of pressure has worked. It didn't work for the four years that we weren't allowed to have inspectors in there. The no-fly zones, presumably everyone is still in favor of keeping Saddam Hussein out of northern Iraq to kill Kurds, and out of southern Iraq to kill Shiites.
BLITZER: All right. Norman, let me let you respond, but let me also read this e-mail from a viewer in Connecticut.
"The Iraqi regime will continue to play games with the U.S. and allies. If they do disclose any information, it will only be what is absolutely necessary or intelligence we already have. The allies should attack and show that they mean business. In other words, better now than wait."
SOLOMON: Yes, the inspection regimen is very thorough and throughout the country will be the process in the next weeks and months. The whole U.N. process is a question of what the goals of the United States are now. Are the goals war? Are the goals genuine inspection and disarmament? We really are in a dangerous spot now. We've had a report -- an unconfirmed report of an attack on a Kuwaiti ship, which is somewhat reminiscent of the Gulf of Tonkin, and we don't really know what's going on.
The no-fly zone, so-called, was never mandated by the United Nations, and yet it's clear from all accounts that the United States is using it's overflights and its attacks on some antiaircraft batteries there to ratchet up the tension and to do war games.
So again, it comes back to the fundamental question -- does the United States government want to disarm Iraq through inspections and rigorous enforcement, which is underway, or does the Bush administration feel that it can't let go of the political football that Bush is holding on to today in Louisiana, and let peace have a chance.
BLITZER: All right. We're unfortunately going to have to leave it right there. Norman Solomon, thanks for joining us. Jonah Goldberg, always good to have you on the program, as well.
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