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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Interview With Mohammed Aldouri; Ryder Sentenced for Shoplifting; Miss World Goes on With Show
Aired December 6, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I'm Daryn Kagan, in for Connie Chung. Tonight, with the deadline for the Iraqi weapons declaration just hours away, an exclusive interview with Saddam's man in the U.S.
ANNOUNCER: Iraq's denial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have no more destruction weapons at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The clock ticks toward the deadline. Tonight, Connie's exclusive interview with Iraq's defiant U.N. ambassador.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Would you answer yes or no to the following question -- does Iraq have nuclear weapons?
MOHAMMED ALDOURI, IRAQ'S AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A courtroom drama fit for Hollywood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS, WINONA RYDER'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Outrageous, judge. It really is.
ANN RUNDLE, PROSECUTOR: I had to listen to that for a year...
GERAGOS: She doesn't listen to anything for a year; she's only been on this case for four months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Winona gets her sentence for shoplifting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you steal again, you will go to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The contrast of this to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, Miss World 2002.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The Miss World pageant goes on with the show. Immersed in a worldwide controversy.
And who will be our person of the day? This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN broadcast center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Daryn Kagan.
KAGAN: Good evening. Connie's feeling just a little bit under the weather tonight.
Tonight is the night, 4:00 a.m. Eastern time Iraqi officials are expected to turn over a massive report, more than 11,000 pages, to weapons inspectors in Baghdad. And down to the wire, Iraq's highest- ranking official in the United States was asked repeatedly by reporters, and insisted repeatedly and angrily that the report will have no mention of weapons of mass destruction, because, they insist, Iraq has none.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALDOURI: We are -- we are saying they would find nothing. We said again and again that we have no more destruction weapons at all. So Iraq is clean of any kind of mass destruction weapons. There is no mass destruction, and this is very clear. We have not to repeat again and again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Well, shortly before making those angry statements to reporters, Iraq's U.N. ambassador Mohammed Aldouri sat down for an exclusive one-on-one interview with Connie. You'll hear what he has to say in just a moment.
Tonight, though, Bush administration sources have told CNN that if Iraq's report does not disclose programs for mass destruction, the U.S. will consider that a material breach of the U.N. resolution against Iraq, though not by itself cause for military action.
Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Baghdad tracking the final hours leading up to Iraq's report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Appearing calm, and in control, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was seen in his most recent TV appearance conferring with his top officials. How they direct Iraq's accounting of its weapons of mass destruction this weekend will determine global reaction.
U.N. Resolution 1441 calls for Iraq to give accurate, full and complete declaration of all aspects of its programs to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and ballistic missiles. As well as all other chemical, biological and nuclear programs, including those which it claims are for purposes not related to weapons production or material.
So far, Iraqi officials, apart from denying possession of weapons of mass destruction, have given a few clues to what it may contain.
GEN. HUSSAM AMIN, IRAQI MONITORING DIRECTORATE: With regard to the new sites, the new activities, which have been conducted during the search by the inspectors.
ROBERTSON (on camera): The handover, however, will likely have maximum media exposure. Iraqi officials have so far been keen to show they are complying with Resolution 1441. From here, the document will be hand-carried to the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna and to U.N. headquarters in New York, where analysts will compare it to a million-page database compiled from previous inspections.
(voice-over): For now, though, even the simplest of questions have yet to be answered.
FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: First of all, we don't know what the document would look like, how much of it would require translation. We don't know how many pages it will be.
ROBERTSON: Inspectors here suspect it will be sometime before they can follow up on any point in the declaration.
JAQUES BAUTE, IAEA TEAM LEADER: But it's out of question to, you know, to speculate now about its content and to speculate about even after we've gone through it. We need some time to go into all the details. That's for sure. That's a fact.
ROBERTSON: Regardless of content, as Iraq's declaration reaches New York, more inspectors will be arriving here.
DIMITRI PERICOS, UNMOVIC TEAM LEADER: As of next week, we are going to have a very large increase of the number of people. Every second day, there will be another 20 or 30 people joining here.
ROBERTSON: Already among the skeletal ruins of one chemical warfare site, inspectors have accounted for some of Iraq's old mustard gas munitions. What else may be lurking in other closets could be revealed this weekend.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And as I mentioned earlier today, Connie sat down for an interview with Saddam's man at the United Nations, Iraqi Ambassador Mohammed Aldouri. Here now her exclusive interview. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Sunday, of course, is the deadline for Iraq to submit to the United Nations a declaration on weapons of mass destruction. What will Iraq declare?
ALDOURI: Well, we will declare, we will submit a very big report, a very thick report, thousands of pages, which might contain all that UNMOVIC and IAEA need, and also what the Security Council really need to be declared.
So we did that already, and we will submit this report Saturday...
CHUNG: A day early?
ALDOURI: A day early.
CHUNG: Why?
ALDOURI: Well, because I think they're all ready (ph) there, they did their work, their job in a good way and a very quick way also. We will hand it to the Security Council early Sunday.
CHUNG: Mr. Ambassador, if there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, why are there thousands of pages?
ALDOURI: You know, I think the members of the Security Council need all information about what has been done already with UNSCOM and what has been done also between '98 and now.
CHUNG: Would you answer yes or no to the following question; does Iraq have nuclear weapons?
ALDOURI: Not at all.
CHUNG: Any development of nuclear weapons?
ALDOURI: Not at all.
CHUNG: Mustard gas?
ALDOURI: Not at all.
CHUNG: Anthrax?
ALDOURI: Not at all.
CHUNG: Smallpox?
ALDOURI: Not at all.
CHUNG: Any type of nerve gas?
ALDOURI: Absolutely not.
CHUNG: Does Iraq have mobile biological units?
ALDOURI: Absolutely not. This is just a propaganda -- a product of propaganda.
CHUNG: Does Iraq have SCUD missiles?
ALDOURI: No.
CHUNG: Does Iraq have missiles that can reach Israel?
ALDOURI: No.
CHUNG: Does Iraq have anything that could be misconstrued as chemical or biological or nuclear weaponry?
ALDOURI: Not at all.
CHUNG: Now, why does the United States insist that it has solid evidence? And why does Britain insist that there is solid evidence that Iraq does in fact have weapons of mass destruction?
ALDOURI: Well, I think this is a part of political propaganda against my country. They try to find any justifications, any justification to attack Iraq, to implement their scheme for attacking Iraq. This is the only reason, otherwise I can't find really a justification for that -- otherwise they can, they have to prove that. They have now inspections -- inspectors are in Iraq. They can go anywhere in Iraq. If what Americans and the British are saying is the truth, so they can give instruction to these people to go and to discover these materials, if there's any. But I don't think they'll succeed, because there is nothing there.
CHUNG: Mr. Ambassador, the United States is asking the Iraqis to physically lead inspectors to sites.
ALDOURI: If we don't have such sites, how we can lead inspectors to go to sites which are unknown by us? How that would be the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), be the case. I cannot understand really what the Americans want. They want the impossible.
CHUNG: They want the impossible?
ALDOURI: Yes.
CHUNG: The United States would also ask Iraq to provide the United Nations with scientists who do want to cooperate and explain what weapons of mass destruction they had been working on before? Would you be willing to allow them to leave the country and do that?
ALDOURI: Well, even Mr. Blix told Americans that we have to discuss each case case-by-case and we cannot oblige anybody to leave his country outside to be interviewed outside, because those people have been already interviewed in the past and I think there is a possibility to be interviewed in Iraq.
CHUNG: Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz says that it would be a miracle if there is no war. But President Bush says that it is up to Saddam Hussein as to whether or not there will be a war. Do you believe that it is inevitable?
ALDOURI: Well, as far as I listen to the American administration responsible, the president, the vice president, the defense minister and also others, it seems to be that what Mr. Tariq Aziz said is correct. It is my belief.
Hopefully, that this war would not occur, and we are working for that. You know, we have to avoid this war. This is a destructive one. There will be a lot of killing on both sides, and we don't want that. This is in the interest of no one in the world. This is very dangerous one for the area, for the world, and we hope that American and Britain government will be wise enough not to attack us.
CHUNG: What is Iraq doing to prepare for war?
ALDOURI: Well, you know, we are a small country with a small army, but we are also brave people. So we are preparing ourselves. We are taking seriously the threat, the American and the British threat, so we are preparing ourselves, certainly, in the best way we can.
CHUNG: Is it true that the government has armed the people of Iraq?
ALDOURI: Yes, that's right.
CHUNG: Every person?
ALDOURI: Every person has a gun, at least one gun at home.
CHUNG: If there is a war, will Iraqis use suicide bombers to go into Israel?
ALDOURI: You know, we will defend our country. We have the right, by international law, by the charter, to fight against any enemy who would like to invade the country, who would like to occupy the country. We will use whatever we can. It is imposed by the national interest, by also Muslim values, by our religion. We have to defend ourselves by all means we have.
CHUNG: So you are not ruling out the possibility of using suicide bombers against Israel if there is a war?
ALDOURI: I told you, we will defend ourself by any means, and this means, by any means, I mean legal means. But what is the defense of legal means? I tell you, all -- whatever we have the capability to defeat the enemy, to defend ourself, we will use it.
CHUNG: The Iraqi people have suffered under these economic sanctions against it since 1991, and the United Nations has said that these the sanctions will be lifted if the Iraqis cooperate. Shouldn't Iraq do everything in its power so that the sanctions can be lifted?
ALDOURI: First of all, we did everything in implementing U.N. resolutions to have these sanctions lifted.
But we know also that these sanctions would not be lifted because of the American policy in that area. They declared several times that these sanctions would not be lifted unless there is a regime change in Iraq, so the Americans used these mass destruction weapons, to continue imposing sanctions against my country.
We lost from the beginning in '91 until now 1,700,000 people, most of them children, elderly and others. And we are still losing, because Americans attacks, daily attack on Iraq still causing killing in Iraqi people. There is no need for that. There is no reason for that. We are not the enemy of the United States.
CHUNG: But you know that there are Americans here who clearly have nothing against the Iraqi people as well. It is the leadership in Iraq that our president has a problem with.
ALDOURI: Why? (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We have no relationship with al Qaeda. We have no relationship with terrorism.
CHUNG: You're making it sound as if Britain and the United States are making these accusations against Iraq and that it's a figment of their imagination.
ALDOURI: This is really pure American and British imagination. They cannot prove any, any reason, any real reason, for their preparations to attack Iraq. This is not only me. This is Iraqi people too. This is the position of Iraqi people, this is the position of Muslim peoples, this is the position of Arab peoples also. All of them raise the same question, ask themselves why, and they cannot find an answer for that unless there is oil and there is Israel. Only those two reasons might be behind the American and the British attitude. Otherwise, there is not any acceptable reason.
The only one reason now is mass destruction weapons. So we are demonstrating to the world, to the international community, that there are no such mass destruction weapons.
CHUNG: Mr. Ambassador, I thank you so much for being with us.
ALDOURI: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And that was Mohammed Aldouri, Iraq's ambassador to the United States (sic), an exclusive interview with our Connie Chung earlier today.
Now, when we come back, what about the ambassador's boss? Saddam rules his country with an iron fist, so it's no surprise that he likes "The Godfather," but writing romance novels? His rise from poverty to power and his hobbies when we come back.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, a girl interrupted by probation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not my intention in this matter to make an example of you, but it is my intention to impose what I believe to be appropriate punitive measures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Did Winona Ryder get what she deserved?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Well, as the U.S. builds its case for military action against Saddam, this week we've been looking at other world leaders who have clashed with the United States. Tonight, we're going to focus on the man himself. We asked our State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel to fill us in on how Saddam Hussein went from poverty to power, and from America's ally to its sworn enemy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraq's president may be light on his feet, but he rules with an iron fist.
AMATZIA BARAM, UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA: He will not hesitate to eliminate anybody who endangers him.
KOPPEL: During two decades in power, Saddam Hussein, like his hero, Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin, has built his regime on a foundation of fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fear for your family, for yourself, for your friends, it's fear for your life, basically.
KOPPEL: Born to peasants in 1937 near Tikrit, in northwest Iraq, by all accounts Saddam Hussein was physically and emotionally abused by his stepfather. As a young student in the 1950s, Saddam joined the ruling Ba'ath Party. Two decades later, he was its leader.
YOUSSEF IBRAHIM, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: He is a very intelligent man. But he's also a tribal animal. Iraq is this weird mixture of tribes, which are fiercely loyal. What Saddam did is that he forged all of these into one country, and he did it absolutely brutally.
KOPPEL: When Kurds in northern Iraq tried to challenge Saddam's rule in 1988, he used poison gas, killing thousands. Saddam's reign of terror is successful, experts say, because he trusts no one, rewards loyalty, and surrounds himself with armed militia from his hometown.
BARAM: So today if you try to hatch a coup d'etat, I would say your chances of success are 1 percent out of 100.
KOPPEL: But while Saddam has enjoyed success at home, he has failed in his lifelong quest to rule the region.
(on camera): Some say Saddam's on again, off again relationship with the United States gave him a false sense of confidence.
(voice-over): Backed by the U.S. in 1980, the Iraqi leader invaded Iran, but eight years later was forced to retreat. Then in 1990, he invaded Kuwait, convinced the U.S. would never get involved.
JEROLD POST, AUTHOR: This is a rational political calculator who, however, often miscalculates. He does represent, while not mad, the most dangerous kind of political personality, and that's what's called malignant narcissism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE GODFATHER")
MARLON BRANDO, ACTOR: And then they will fear you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: A big fan of "The Godfather," Saddam's view of the U.S. and the West has been heavily influenced by Hollywood. A Sunni Muslim, Saddam is not devout, and likes to drink. An avid reader, he also likes to write, of all things, romance novels.
MARK BOWDEN, AUTHOR, "TALES OF THE TYRANT": He wants to leave an imprint on the region and in his own country that will make him a revered figure, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years from now.
KOPPEL: But just how Saddam is remembered will likely depend on what happens next in his showdown with the U.S., and this may ultimately be the cause of his own downfall.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, the State Department.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And joining us now from CNN center in Atlanta, Sandra Mackey. She's the author of "The Reckoning: Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein." Sandra, good evening. Thanks for being with us.
SANDRA MACKEY, AUTHOR, "THE RECKONING": Good evening, Daryn.
KAGAN: Help us understand a little bit more the mind and the personality of Saddam Hussein, especially coming out of Connie's interview with Ambassador Aldouri, where he continues to insist that there are no weapons of mass destruction inside of Iraq. Clearly this is coming from the top, from Saddam Hussein.
MACKEY: Well, Saddam Hussein really is someone who has -- he grew up as a very poor boy. He was without a father. And I think that was, you know, something that probably really marred his psyche, so to speak. But he is a very needy person in the ego department, and consequently has built this really cult of personality around himself. And part of that cult of personality is the need to be regarded as all-powerful. And certainly, I, you know, would guess that he is very interested in having weapons of mass destruction, not necessarily to use against his neighbors as much as to intimidate his own people.
KAGAN: But Sandra, help us to be at the very moment where we are in history -- to use a sports analogy, this is the bottom of the ninth. What is Saddam Hussein in your mind thinking right now? Does he see this as a game with the ultimate of highest of stakes?
MACKEY: Well, I think Saddam Hussein is, above all things, a survivor. And I think from that standpoint, we can't just rule out the fact that he will not cooperate. I think he will play games. But the inspectors now have a mandate, and they have some muscle that they can exhibit in their inspections. And that's going to be very helpful in actually trying to ferret out these weapons.
And I think we need to remember that ultimately what the inspectors really need to focus on and what the United States is most interested in is to make sure that Saddam Hussein does not acquire a nuclear weapon.
KAGAN: Well, one thing that's different this time around than the last time around in the early '90s, it does appear that Saddam Hussein has not ordered his troops into a certain position, looking like he's getting ready for war. But as we heard in Ambassador Aldouri's interview with Connie, he says everybody in Iraq at least has a gun. Does he have the support of the Iraqi people, do you believe? Will they rise up and support Saddam Hussein?
MACKEY: I think this is the big question. In fact, one of the things that I feel we have failed to pay enough attention to is Saddam Hussein's weaknesses. We seem to concentrate only on his strengths. And as Andrea's piece showed, that Saddam Hussein really has been able to maintain power partly by building this extensive network of tribal alliances. And there is one rule of tribal politics, and that is when your patron appears to be weakened, then you begin to pull back and to seek other patrons who will protect your interests more adequately.
KAGAN: And so just real quickly, I'm sorry, Sandra, to interrupt you, but our time is so short. Just real quickly, so you believe in the end if there is a U.S. military action or not, you think Saddam Hussein's days are numbered?
MACKEY: Yeah, I think that we have the ability to play out this weapons regime as it is set up and wait for Saddam Hussein to fall.
KAGAN: Sandra Mackey, joining us from Atlanta. Sandra, thank you for your insight. I appreciate it tonight.
Well, the war on terror by the U.S. and other countries, it all goes on, as you'll see, in our look at the world in 60 seconds.
Deadly violence erupts in the troubled Middle East. Sources say 10 Palestinians were killed during an Israeli incursion at a Gaza refugee camp. Israeli forces blew up a house of a suspected militant and fired a rocket into a crowd of armed men.
Meanwhile, Israeli residents are prepping for war, getting fitted for gas masks in case of chemical attacks. And Prime Minister Ariel Sharon claims the al Qaeda terrorist group has gained a foothold in Gaza. Palestinian authorities deny the charge.
In Australia, folks are watching in disbelief as walls of flame demolish everything in their path. They're the worst wildfires to hit Sydney in 30 years. So far being blamed for two deaths.
In Thailand, a major menace to society has its own museum. Opium is on display. Showcasing how the drug is planted, produced, and how it can kill.
And that's the world in 60. Still ahead -- Winona Ryder faced justice today, but she wasn't too happy about it. We'll show you. Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead -- how can a beauty pageant leave such an ugly legacy? Miss USA speaks out on the eve of the contest. CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Well, if you gave the Winona Ryder trial a big thumbs down for pacing and dramatic content, I hope you saw the sequel. If you didn't, we have some highlights for you, because today's sentencing literally had the shoplifting actress out of her seat. Our Charles Feldman was at the trial and at Ryder's sentencing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before Winona Ryder learned her fate, a lawyer for the store she stole from lashed out at her, calling her "a movie star thief."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoplifting is not a minor offense, nor is it a victimless crime. We are all its victims.
FELDMAN: Ryder's attorney countered that his client was being made an example of.
GERAGOS: It's clear to me, at least in 20 years of practice, that this case has been handled unlike any I've ever seen.
FELDMAN: And the judge, before handing down his sentence, chided the 31-year-old actress for not being remorseful despite her conviction.
JUDGE ELDEN FOX, LOS ANGELES COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: What is of concern to me in this matter is the fact that you have been unable, or maybe more appropriately described, you have refused to accept personal responsible for what happened on December 12. You have disappointed many people who have been entertained and inspired by your talent and also your acts of humanity over many, many years.
FELDMAN: The star of such films as "Little Women" and "Girl, Interrupted" will not see the inside of a jail cell following her conviction on shoplifting charges, but the judge sentenced Ryder to three years' probation, more than 400 hours of community service, fines totalling more than $9,000 and mandated drug and psychiatric counseling.
Ryder opted not to address the court before sentencing, but she was the star of an emotional highlight after her lawyer told the judge to take into account her good works; works that included putting up $1 million of her own money in 1993 as a reward in the case of 12-year- old Polly Klaas, who was kidnapped and murdered.
Well, that didn't exactly go over well with the prosecutor.
RUNDLE: What else is offensive to me is for someone to trot out the body of a dead child and in some way say because she supported...
GERAGOS: You know, that is just so outrageous, judge, that really is.
RUNDLE: I've been on this case for a year and...
GERAGOS: She hasn't listened to anything for a year. She's only been on this case for four months.
FELDMAN (on camera): A big question here is whether this whole affair will damage Ryder's career. Now, as a rule, Hollywood is very forgiving of young actresses in distress. But supporting her while she gets the help the judge told her she so desperately needs is another question.
Charles Feldman, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Pat Lalama is in Los Angeles. She's been covering the trial. And Court TV's Roger Cossack. You know, we claim him as ours here at CNN. Forever, Roger. He's joining us from Washington.
ROGER COSSACK, COURT TV: Well, you know, there will always be a little piece of me that's always here.
KAGAN: I know, Court TV can have you now but we claim you as ours.
Hey, Pat, I want to go ahead and start with you. With these 480 hours of community service, are we talking about Winona just working the craft table at her next movie, or something?
PAT LALAMA, CELEBRITY JUSTICE: Absolutely not. I'm glad you asked that question, because last week I did an interview with Steve Cooley, who's the district attorney of Los Angeles, and he said that in their recommendation to the judge it would be tough community service, no benefit concerts of their own choosing, no gladhanding on the red carpet.
And that was proven today by the judge accepting that recommendation and saying, look, we want you to do 480 hours of service by April 7, which is not easy to do, and it has to include -- he specified where he wanted her to go. The City of Hope, which deals with cancer patients. Caring for Babies With AIDS and for blind children. So he's designated this is where you're going and it's not going to be anywhere near the red carpet.
KAGAN: Roger, you're a former prosecutor in Southern California. You heard her attorney saying, oh, come on, you've been picking on her for the last year. When you look at the sentence, is it in line with what first offenders usually get for this type of crime?
COSSACK: You know, it is. Look, let's face it. She didn't go to jail, but most people don't go to jail when they're convicted in this case. The hard part of this, and I think the unusual part is that she ends up with a felony.
You know, most times petty theft or shoplifting people, even if it's a felony amount, in my experience usually got it reduced down to a misdemeanor and then ended up with a severe sentence like this with a great deal of community service. If there was no, you know, prior background.
In this case, you know, she ends up with a felony conviction. In California they have that three-strike law, as they do in some states. If somehow she gets a couple of other convictions, she could be facing a tremendous amount of time in prison. And look, the judge told her this time that she gets in trouble again, she's going to jail.
KAGAN: In fact, I think we have that soundbite, that little clip. Let's go ahead and listen to that, what Judge Fox had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOX: If you steal again, you will go to jail. Do you understand that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: He said it right there. Just like you said, Roger.
COSSACK: I don't think he's kidding around, Daryn. I think that she is well warned. Look, it's obvious this is a young woman who's got some problems. And we can only hope that she gets them straightened out, because, you know, she's on a slide, and if something happens again, it could be disastrous.
KAGAN: Yeah, Pat, let's talk about some of those problems. It's coming out now in recent days, when she was picked up last year after this arrest, eight different types of painkillers in her purse. More painkillers than would be given to a terminally ill patient. Demerol, Disapan (ph), Vicodin, Vicoprofen (ph). I mean, I could go on and on. This is clearly a young woman who has some things to deal with, and part of the sentence today is she needs to get some help and some counseling.
LALAMA: Well, actually, Daryn, that became such another dramatic event in the courtroom, because Mr. Geragos had brought up that it was clearly unfair, he felt, for that to ever be brought up in the district attorney's recommendation to the judge. His point was, why bring this up? It was not part of the charges. The one drug charge was dropped. It's unfair. You're simply trying to smear her.
Ann Rundle responded, who's the deputy district attorney, by saying, wait a minute, all of this is part of a necessary evaluation, and it's clear in the prosecution's mind and clearly in the judge's mind that there is some trouble here, some psychological matter that has to deal with, perhaps, drug use. Those were the words of Steve Cooley, the district attorney, last week when I spoke to him, he said, it's clear to me, I believe that she has a drug problem, and it has to be addressed.
And the problem is that the judge seemed to indicate to her that she was not acknowledging, was not addressing, didn't seem sorry, and the judge said, if you don't show some contrition as a component of this, then the probation will never work. And that was the point he was trying to make with bringing up the drug issue.
KAGAN: Well, Roger, what about that legal issue? There was the drug charge at the beginning, and it was dropped. Do you think -- and take off your prosecutor hat for a second here, Roger. OK?
COSSACK: OK. OK.
KAGAN: Try to think as a defending attorney. Do you think that that was fair for the judge to throw that in there?
COSSACK: You know, in the -- exactly as Pat points out, and as the district attorney points out, within the context of sentencing, these kinds of things become issues that can be considered.
Now, would they have been fair to have them put in front of the jury? Absolutely not. And they were not put in front of the jury. On the other hand, I think the defense lawyer had a good argument when he said, look, you know, this was leaked so that people knew about it. You know, that wasn't necessarily the right thing to do, and it only could have come from either the police or the district attorney.
But nevertheless, I think that within the context of a sentencing schedule like we heard today, a sentencing hearing, you know, that kind of material is, unfortunately for Winona Ryder, relevant.
KAGAN: I want to go ahead and play one more soundbite from Judge Fox. He like many of us are wondering what was one of the biggest stars in Hollywood doing shoplifting at Saks Fifth Avenue? Let's listen to the judge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOX: I have a 16-year-old son named Ryan who asked me several weeks ago to the effect of why would Winona Ryder steal from Saks Fifth Avenue when she certainly has enough money to pay for anything that she wanted to buy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Pat, real quick, in Hollywood, will producers be asking themselves the same thing? Does this help her career or hurt her career?
LALAMA: Well, I think that's going to be up to Winona and how she behaves from here on out. But I want to say, regarding that issue of why would someone steal, if you accept the idea that perhaps this is a problem, a psychological illness, it doesn't matter how much money you have. Taking people's property and not paying for it is a problem that needs to be dealt with. It has nothing to do with whether she's rich or famous. And what she does from here on out will determine what kind of a future she has.
KAGAN: Very good. Pat Lalama, Roger Cossack, thanks for joining us tonight. Much appreciated.
And tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE," inside the sentencing of Winona Ryder. You'll have an exclusive interview with her attorney, Mark Geragos. You just saw him in the piece. You're going to hear some more. That's "LARRY KING LIVE." That one begins in about 20 minutes.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead -- who will be our person of the day? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Is Shania Twain heading for a milestone? Could she become the first woman with three albums selling more than 10 million copies? Things are looking up for her, as you see in today's "Snapshot."
Her new album is called "Up." But country music thinks Shania Twain can go no higher. For the second consecutive week, her album is number one, selling 1.5 million copies so far.
They're back. The mobster and his shrink will try to analyze the appetite of moviegoers. Robert DeNiro and Billy Crystal serve up a sequel to their 1999 film. "Analyze That" opens nationwide today.
Art imitates reality, as HBO rolls back the curtain to 1991. Its premiere movie, "Live From Baghdad," chronicle's CNN's battle to cover the Gulf War story live.
His custody battle flung him into the world's spotlight, and now another splash for Cuba's Elian Gonzalez. On his ninth birthday, a full-page ad in the Communist Party (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
In Austria, they're carving out an icy Christmas. A nativity scene made entirely of ice graces the ground in the city of Braz (ph). No word on whether anybody's gotten their tongue stuck to any of the sculptures so far.
When we come back, the Miss World pageant, should it still go on tomorrow in spite of the 200 dead in Nigeria? We'll ask the woman competing in the name of the United States. That's just ahead. Stay with us.
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KAGAN: Well, talk about a major event shrouded in controversy. The Miss World pageant is tomorrow. It airs in 142 countries two weeks after contestants and pageant officials fled Nigeria in the face of deadly riots there. More than 200 people were killed after Muslims started rioting, outraged by a newspaper writer's claim that Mohammed, Islam's founder, might approve of the pageant, would even marry a contestant. The pageant moved to England over the protests of some who blame the pageant for the rioting. The pageant organizer blamed the newspaper writer. And we don't even know for sure, but we assume someone somewhere is actually blaming the rioters.
Well, whoever you blame, the pageant is going on. And we have Rebekah Revels, who's representing United States, and she is joining us from London. Rebekah, welcome. Thanks for joining us.
REBEKAH REVELS, MISS USA: Thank you.
KAGAN: First, I need to know why you are still in the contest. I understand there are a number of contestants who have chosen to drop out, because even before the rioting there was a whole other controversy involving a woman in northern Nigeria who was condemned to death simply for having a child outside of wedlock. There are some who have chosen to drop out. Why do you think it's important to stay in?
REVELS: I talked with my family members, and we decided as a whole group that it was better for me to go to Nigeria to support Aminga Lawal (ph). She actually requested the contestants to still come to Nigeria because she thought we could help her more with our presence there in her country. And the women who decided to boycott initially have now joined the pageant here in London.
KAGAN: Let's go back a couple weeks ago when those riots broke out. You were in Nigeria at the time, I take it?
REVELS: Yes. We were in Abuja, and the riots happened in Kaduna, which was about 100 miles from the area we were located in.
KAGAN: The pageant did make the decision to take you guys from Nigeria, bring you to England. Do you feel safer now that you're there?
REVELS: Yes. Honestly, the human nature side of me certainly feels safe here, safer here in London. I think that the Miss World organization made the best decision on behalf of everyone involved.
KAGAN: So no concerns that anybody's going to try anything tomorrow? You feel OK about competing and being on television around the world?
REVELS: Yes. I certainly don't think that anyone would try to do anything. And we are trying to make sure that there's no connection made between what happened, the people's lives who were lost, and the Miss World pageant. And I certainly think that it's going to be successful and that nothing will happen tomorrow. We're going to have a great pageant and crown a new Miss World.
KAGAN: I want to ask you about that, about the effort to make sure that people don't associate the pageant with the lives that were lost. As I understand it, there will be no mention, there will be no commemoration of the 200 lives of the people who died. Do you think that's appropriate?
REVELS: I certainly think that the lives that were lost should be mourned, and that we should, yes, say something. And we are doing our best to still make sure that Nigeria is seen in a good light. Africa was wonderful. The people there were wonderful. And as a pageant, as a whole, if you were able to watch the pageant you would see that we are still highlighting Nigeria and still highlighting Africa, and making sure that people know what a beautiful country and beautiful people that are in Nigeria.
KAGAN: Rebekah, on a personal note I need to ask you because I think a lot of our viewers are going to recognize you or your name from the situation from your involvement with the Miss America pageant when you were Miss North Carolina. You resigned that seat, you tried to get it back, in the end you weren't allowed by a judge's order to compete in Miss America.
How does someone like you then end up representing the U.S. at Miss World? How did that come about?
REVELS: Well, the franchise holders, ones located in New York, saw all the media attention that was -- that I received from the Miss America situation and called me and said he was impressed by the way I handled myself, that I handled myself with "grace under fire," were his exact words. And asked me if I wanted to come represent the United States and America here at the Miss World pageant.
KAGAN: And real quickly, is it true for your talent you're going to perform "Stormy Weather"?
REVELS: Actually, I've already performed "Stormy Weather," and I've been told that I was selected as the outstanding talent winner and will be awarded tomorrow night -- or excuse me, tomorrow afternoon at the pageant.
KAGAN: Well, how appropriate, given what you've been through over the last couple of months. We wish you well. We wish you safe passage. Rebekah Revels, the U.S. representative to Miss World. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
REVELS: Thank you.
KAGAN: And still ahead -- our person of the day. It's up in the air. I mean really up. Stay with us.
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And before we go, our person of the day. A little confession. Today the person is actually seven persons. We're talking about the astronauts and cosmonauts aboard the space shuttle Endeavour. They set an unfortunate record today. For a third day, weather conditions prevented a landing. Now, NASA has never had to postpone a landing to the fourth day until now. The Endeavour's mission included shuttling a replacement crew to the International Space Station, which means the shuttle's passengers have been in space already for six months. NASA says one way or another the Endeavour will come down tomorrow, if not in Florida than in California, even though it costs an extra million to land there.
So why spend all that extra money rather than wait until Sunday? Because Sunday is when the Endeavour's fuel and electricity run out. And orbiting the earth with that little factoid in their heads, that makes the astronauts and cosmonauts our people of the day.
Well, coming up on Monday, should parents be giving diet pills to 6-year-old kids? We're going to have the debate over the new skinny pill for kids.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Winona Ryder's lawyer, Mark Geragos, on today's dust-up in court. Thanks for watching. Have a good night, a good weekend, and Connie, we hope you feel a lot better on Monday.
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