Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Crossfire

Suds Found on North Korean Cargo Ship in Indian Ocean; Lott's Comments on Thurmond May Have Cause Damage to His Leadership

Aired December 10, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: Scud missiles have been found on a ship sailing out of North Korea. Does this mean the U.S. government's almost exclusive focus on Iraq needs to be adjusted?
Trent Lott apologizes, but some are still calling for his head over the way he wished Strom Thurmond happy birthday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: He voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all of these problems over all these years either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is Lott's Senate leadership position now in jeopardy?

Jimmy Carter takes home the Nobel Peace Prize. An honor long overdue or a poor pick for a politicized prize?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE.

When once and future majority leader of the Senate Trent Lott joined in the lighthearted toasting of colleague Strom Thurmond on his 100th birthday, he may have gone a bit overboard. And sure enough, the storm troopers of political correctness are out for blood. Thought police chief Jesse Jackson will be joining us.

We'll no longer have to listen to the Carter worshippers grouse about the former president getting passed over for the Nobel so-called Peace Prize. He has it. The Carter legacy and the prize do belong together in the dustbin of history.

But first, some breaking news CNN is following. U.S. forces have found at least a dozen Scud missiles on board a ship off the coast of Yemen; a ship that sailed out of North Korea. CNN's Kris Osborn joins us live from the Pentagon with the latest -- Kris.

KRIS OSBORN, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: That's right. Good evening to you, Bob. Well, Pentagon officials tell CNN that roughly 12 Scud missiles were found aboard what's being described as a stateless vessel on its way, as you mentioned, from North Korea to the Horn of Africa. It is currently about 200 miles southeast of Yemen and it is believed to have Scud missiles on board.

Now here's how some of the events transpired. The vessel was intercepted by two Spanish warships yesterday who boarded the ship, only then to discover piles of cement underneath, upon which further examination was merited. U.S. officials were called in.

U.S. military ordnance officials, explosive experts are currently on board the ship. They have confirmed that, indeed, Scud missiles were beneath the cement on board. Right now the ship is still very much out in the waters. They're seeking to stabilize the vessel before bringing it into port.

Certainly raises a number of interesting and significant concerns. One of them being if indeed the ship left North Korea. We understand CNN has learned that it has been monitored by U.S. intelligence since departing North Korea, although described at this point as a stateless vessel, meaning it lacks the specific paperwork needed to verify that the North Korea government was cognizant or aware, in fact, of this vessel.

Secondly, of course, no small amount of concern here among U.S. military intelligence officials that the intention to bring Scud missiles to the Horn of Africa certainly causing some no small degree of alarm -- Bob.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Kris Osborn, thank you very much for that report from the Pentagon. Joining us to offer his insight and expertise on the issue, Ken Adelman, former director of the United States Arms Control and Disarmament Agency now with defensecentral.com -- Mr. Adelman.

NOVAK: Ken Adelman, nobody knows whether Iraq has nuclear weapons or not. No sign that they do. North Korea may have them. No sign that Iraq is sending any kind of aid to the al Qaeda rebels. These Scuds may be going to al Qaeda rebels in the Horn of Africa. Are we after the wrong bandits?

KEN ADELMAN, DEFENSECENTRAL.COM: No, I would say that we should be after all bandits. What this shows probably is that when President Bush talks about the axis of evil, he names three states: Iraq, Iran and North Korea. All of them are problem areas, all of them require vigorous American action.

We know that right now Iranians are in revolt against their government, and we should help that. We know about Iraq. And it's not true that there is no connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. There is a connection, we talked about it a lot. But you are unconvinced that there is. And North Korea, as we saw tonight, it is not only shipping Scud missiles, but has announced recently it has nuclear weapons, and it probably has two or three. The combination of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, and especially total disregard on exporting, is a very dangerous combination.

NOVAK: They seem -- North Korea seems to be the greater (UNINTELLIGIBLE) danger. We're not going after North Korea because they're too dangerous? Is that the answer?

ADELMAN: That is partly it, Bob. No, you are absolutely right. The thing is, we're not going after North Korea because North Korea has two or three nuclear weapons and can make more. OK? We don't want to get into a situation in Iraq where Iraq has two or three nuclear weapons, and therefore we cannot do anything when they start exporting weapons of mass destruction.

BEGALA: Well, first off, we can do something. Let me quote to you from our then chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Bob Graham. First of all, let me say, and I'm sure you would agree, congratulations to our intelligence services under George Tenet, the director of Central Intelligence, who did track this and did find it. And everybody has to agree that is a terrific coup for American intelligence.

Our chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee had this to say when asked several months ago about North Korea versus Iraq. He said this, "If you put the two -- North Korea and Iraq -- on the scales and ask the question, 'Which today is the greatest threat to the United States of America?' I would answer that question North Korea. And I think that needs to be a part of the re-balancing of our foreign policy priorities."

Bob Graham, Democrat from Florida, was right. President Bush was asleep at the switch wasn't he?

ADELMAN: No, I don't think that's right at all. First of all, what would you do about North Korea? Secondly, the fact is that both North Korea and Iraq and Iran are causing problems right now.

BEGALA: But let me ask you, what do we do? What should the punishment be? If the punishment for Iraq, which, as Bob points out, which does not have a nuclear weapon and is not definitive proof they aid al Qaeda, the punishment with them is war. What's the punishment for North Korea, which provably has a nuclear weapon and is almost certainly aiding al Qaeda? What's the punishment there?

ADELMAN: What you have to do is stop European investment in North Korea. We have to stop the shipments of oil that we have been sending there for the last several years.

NOVAK: But not war.

ADELMAN: Well, we have to fortify. Not war, but we have to fortify the border right there. We have to make sure that the South Koreans and the Japanese are realistic about North Korea. Listen, we lived in a dream world and they, especially, have lived in a dream world, that if only you have a sunshine policy, like the South Koreans call it -- the Secretary of State Madeleine Albright went over there and was thrilled by her discussions there with the tyrant.

NOVAK: What we're relying on, Mr. Adelman, is deterrence -- the same thing we used with the Soviet Union for half a century -- against the North Koreans. If deterrence is good against the North Koreans, why isn't deterrence good against the Iraqis?

ADELMAN: Well, A, we're doing more than just deterrence against North Korea. In other words, we're trying to stop any kind of international commerce and fortification of that regime. So it's not just deterrence, but it's a kind of active approach to, you know, alter the regime or bring regime change right there.

NOVAK: But we're deterring them from using their nuclear weapons.

ADELMAN: I don't know how we're deterring them from using nuclear weapons.

NOVAK: Because we have a hell of a lot of them.

ADELMAN: We have 30,000 American troops right there to stop their aggression. It's not to stop nuclear weapons, but it's to stop their aggression across the south. The problem with Iraq is that, unlike North Korea, Iraq has gassed its own people, and gassed its neighbors. Iraq has invaded two of its neighbors right now, Iran and Kuwait.

Iraq has a connection that is, I think, clear with al Qaeda, than the connection with North Korea. I'm not -- I don't want to be in the situation of saying North Korea isn't a terrible actor on the world stage. It's a terrible actor on the world stage, and we should make sure we do everything to really put them in the box and make sure that we don't fortify that regime in any way.

But the fact is, we don't want a situation in Iraq that gets nuclear weapons. That has deterred us from taking action against North Korea.

BEGALA: But the critics of the president's policy in Iraq have been saying, basically, if it was a campaign slogan, it's al Qaeda, stupid. First off, do you have any doubt? We don't have definitive reporting out of CNN sources, but do you have any doubt that this shipment of Scud missiles to the Horn of Africa, which is an area that is replete with al Qaeda terrorists was, in fact, designed to get to al Qaeda?

ADELMAN: I don't have any doubt, Paul, that it is going to somebody illegal. And somebody who shouldn't get them. I mean, as I understand it, the ship was unmarked. As I understand it, anything North Korea sells is going to bad guys. And the fact is that Scud missiles, in the hands of these terrorist groups or terrorist countries, is a very, very ominous situation.

This is the new world that we are entering right now. And when President Bush says we have to have preemption as a U.S. policy, because we cannot allow these countries to get weapons of mass destruction and a means of delivery with a ballistic missile, he is absolutely right. We have to do something actively to stop that threat, or else we will live in a world that is absolutely dreadful in the future.

BEGALA: Ken Adelman, former adviser to President Reagan, thank you very much for joining us.

(APPLAUSE)

Of course CNN will keep you posted on this story throughout our program and throughout the night. Please stay with us for all of the latest.

But coming up next on CROSSFIRE, our "Political Alert." Among the items we'll be tracking, Strom Thurmond may be 100 years old, but at his party it was actually Trent Lott who came off looking like that goofy old uncle you're too embarrassed to let out of the attic. Despite Senator Lott's self-serving non-apology, reaction from both ends of the political spectrum is snow balling into an avalanche.

Meanwhile, in Oslo, former President Jimmy Carter accepted the Nobel Peace Prize today. I think it's a moment that is a quarter century overdue. You won't be surprised if my co-host sees things a little differently. Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Now, as we do every day, we offer you the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

In Norway today, Jimmy Carter became the third president of the United States to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. Following Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, who actually were most famous for making war. Just what President Carter was honored for is questionable, because it is not clear he brought peace anywhere.

What he has done is break the old rule that former presidents of the United States do not attack foreign policy endeavors of their successors. Instead, he attacked unnamed countries -- meaning the good old USA -- for advocating prevent of war. The Nobel Prize awarders said Mr. Carter was a poor president but a terrific ex- president. He was half right.

BEGALA: You know, I expected the American right wing to have more class, more grace. This is an honor for every American to share in. Our former president receiving one of great honors of the world. And all the right wing can do is carp about it. NOVAK: You know something, Paul, if you were being honest, you would say, Bob, I agree with you. He was a crummy president, and you know it.

BEGALA: Oh, he's a wonderful guy. And we'll debate this later tonight.

Our current president, though, today asked a 71-year-old Wall Street millionaire to run the Securities and Exchange Commission. William Donaldson, a veteran of the Nixon administration -- that would be an administration that began a third of a century ago -- is the former chairman and CEO of the New York Stock Exchange.

He joins fellow Nixon alumnus, Henry Kissinger, who is investigating 9/11, Ford administration official, John Snow, Bush's nominee for treasury secretary, and two former chiefs of staff under President Ford, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. Those five men alone have a combined age of 344, giving the Bush administration more retreads than Bubba's Discount Tire Store back in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Texas.

Meanwhile, word is that the choice of Steven Friedman to be National Economic Council Chairman is in trouble. Friedman, of course, is only 64 years old. White House insiders speculate President Bush would prefer the newly retired Senator Strom Thurmond.

NOVAK: You now, Paul, you have gone too far with this ageism. I am older than all of those people. And so I take that as a personal affront.

BEGALA: No, no, no. Your ideas are old, but you are not old yourself. That's the difference.

NOVAK: I'm older than any of them.

Jesse Jackson yesterday called for Senator Trent Lott to step down as perspective majority leader, and Jesse's followers in the Congressional Black Caucus fell into line today. They're reacting to a remark in jest by the senator at Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party, saying the country would be better off if Thurmond had been elected president as the segregationist candidate in 1948.

The Caucus' new chairman, Elijah Cummings of Maryland, said "The fact is that this man," -- that's Trent Lott -- "is four heartbeats away from the presidency." Wrong, Mr. Cummings. Senator Lott is not in the line of presidential succession. But why care about facts when you are playing the race card?

BEGALA: All I can say is thank god he is not in line for the presidency, nor should he ever be. Principal conservatives are disavowing those statements.

NOVAK: Why don't you tell Elijah that he's not in line for the presidency.

BEGALA: I think that's hardly the heart of the matter. Jesse Jackson himself will be out here in a minute, and he will be debating that, believe me.

President Bush may be stocking his administration, as I mentioned earlier, with veterans of the Ford administration. So one would hope that he is listening to former President Ford himself. The former president tells the current issue of "Esquire," "I have many reservation about Iraq. I don't like Saddam Hussein, that's for sure, but I am not certain this is the time for the United States to unilaterally engage him in a military conflict. Because, as I understand it, we don't have anybody ready to join us."

President Bush responded by declaring former President Ford an enemy combatant. The former president is now being held without a lawyer, without rights and without visitors at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. That's harsh.

NOVAK: Well, you may think that is funny. I don't think it is funny, because, as you know, nobody is being held, no American is being held there without rights.

BEGALA: They're being held here at Norfolk, Virginia without rights.

NOVAK: Not being held in Guantanamo. And, another thing is that President Ford is wrong when he says we won't have anybody with us. We'll have the British with us. They're always with us.

Al Gore hasn't even announced his candidacy and the bad news has started already. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) college poll just out shows a virtual dead heat in the first of the nation primary election in New Hampshire. Thirty-one percent for the former vice president; 28 percent for Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts.

Now Senator Kerry is from a neighboring state. But so is Vermont Governor Howard Dean, and he got just six percent. Furthermore, 44 percent said Al Gore should not run again. Incidentally, the pollsters asked Paul's friend whether Senator Hillary Clinton should run for president. Sixty-eight percent said no to Hillary. You know I think even Paul Begala can do better than that.

BEGALA: Hillary herself has said no. So it's 100 percent deal. Hillary is not going to run. I think that's kind of a shame. I would like to see debates with her and Bush. Bush is not half the woman Hillary is.

NOVAK: Well, I would like to see it, too. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BEGALA: She'd beat him like a bad piece of meat in those debates.

"The New York Times" reports today that the Bush administration is actually making it easier for corporations to strip pension benefits from their older employees. The proposed rules help corporations switch from traditional pensions to what's called cash balance plans, which experts say benefit younger workers at the expense of older workers. This apparently proves that despite being populated with geezers, the Bush administration does not favor older people. In fact, it only favors older people who are also rich, white and male. Now, while it's true that ordinary workers over the age of 55 can be big losers under the Bush plan, corporate kingpins like Jack Welch of GE will still be free to loot the corporate treasuries they control. To paraphrase the old country music song, CEOs get the gold mine, working people get the shaft.

NOVAK: You know, I think you're trying to make up for your vicious attack on me and other old people previously. But the fact of the matter is, if you look into it, Paul, as I'm sure you will, you will find that these plans make pension plans available to more, not fewer Americans.

Coming up on CROSSFIRE, what does it take to do penance for a good-natured comment taken the wrong way? He's apologized for what he said at Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party, but the liberal knives are still sharpened for Senator Trent Lott.

And a loser of a prize goes to a loser of an ex-president. Stay with us for this sorry spectacle from Oslo.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

You know, William Faulkner once wrote that the past isn't over, it isn't even past. Senator Trent Lott, of Faulkner's home state of Mississippi, now knows how right he was. At Senator Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday last week, Senator Lott, the once and future Senate Majority Leader, said if the country had joined his fellow Mississippians in voting for Thurmond for president in 1948 we wouldn't have all these problems.

Thurmond, of course, ran for president as a Dixiecrat on a segregationist platform. From the Family Research Council on the right, to the Congressional Black Caucus on the left, many are reacting with shock. The NAACP has called on Lott to quit his leadership post.

And today, Senator Lott offered an apology, calling his comments a poor choice of words. Of course, others wonder whether any choice of words excuses endorsing a segregationist over Harry Truman.

To debate this issue, we're jond by the Reverend Jesse Jackson, head of the Rainbow Coalition, and Congressman Mike Pence, a Republican from Indiana, and, as of today, the House Deputy Majority Whip, showing that in the House, at least, Republicans pick good leaders, unlike in the Senate.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Reverend Jackson, I'd like to read to you what Senator Lott actually said. We'll put it up on the screen. "A poor choice of words conveyed to some the impression that I embraced the discarded policies of the past. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I apologize to anyone who was offended by my statement." As a man of god, Reverend, can't you accept a person's apology?

REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW COALITION: I can. As a matter of fact, this statement he made was more a pattern on a policy than (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is the same Trent Lott that took Ronald Reagan to Neshoba County, Mississippi, where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) had been killed, to send that signal.

He is embracing -- this is the same Trent Lott who is connected with the white citizens council, the Conservative Citizens Council. This is a pattern of policy. He never made a single move to end the racist pattern and rejects all remedies. He, in fact, should have another post, not leadership of the U.S. Senate.

NOVAK: Well, you know I'm very disappointed in your hard- heartedness on that.

JACKSON: I would expect you to be.

NOVAK: And -- but I want to give a Democrat, who I often disagree with, but I think is a decent man, I want to show you how he reacted to Senator Lott's apologies. Let's listen to the Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: Senator Lott, in my conversation with him this morning, explained that that wasn't how he meant them to be interpreted. I accept that. And I -- there are a lot of times when he and I go to the microphone and would like to say things we meant to say differently. And I'm sure this is one of those cases for him as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Could it be, Reverend, that you want to play the race card and Tom Daschle doesn't?

JACKSON: No. It is that kind of a weakness in a guy like Tom Daschle, where he draws no litmus test line for very offensive racism that goes into racist policy. Democrats must have some sense of integrity on this question of racism and gender bias. And I would think there should be a bipartisan rejection of one whose history and pattern and policy is so overtly insidiously racist.

NOVAK: We'll go back to this history later, but go ahead, Paul.

BEGALA: First, in defense of Tom Daschle, today he issued a statement saying that what Lott had said was wrong and they were offensive to people who believe in freedom and equality. It was smacking Lott back the way that he deserves to be. But first, let me congratulate you, Congressman Pence, on your leadership role in the House Republican majority.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Thank you, Paul. BEGALA: Let me play you the tape of what Trent Lott actually said. Here's what he said. This is the controversial comments. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: It's about my state. When Strom Thurmond ran for president we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: As a leader of the Republican Party, do you embrace or repudiate those comments?

PENCE: I, as Trent Lott did in the last 24 hours, I repudiate them. And the fact is that Trent Lott is a leader in Mississippi and in America whose commitment to civil justice is very clear. Twenty- five percent of African-Americans in Mississippi vote for this man, support this man. A 75 percent approval rating in his own state, even among many minorities.

I think Reverend Jackson and other leaders in this country would recognize that, while there are differences on policies, Trent Lott is not a racist. Trent Lott is not a man who endorses the concept of segregation. He is a man who misspoke here. It's grievous, I know. He personally is saddened about it, Paul, and has done everything to take eit back.

JACKSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), when Meredith was there. He didn't stand for public accommodations. He didn't stand for the right to vote. He, in fact, has this association with the White Citizens Council. The fact is that Trent Lott did take Reagan to Philadelphia, Mississippi. It's known for only one thing, really, it's where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was killed. And so these signals can no longer be ignored.

PENCE: Well --and I think there are signals and there's a way to read that.

NOVAK: That was 20 years ago, Jesse. Twenty years ago.

PENCE: We can also look at a 30-year career in the Congress, Reverend Jackson, and recognize that this is a man, who despite the associations that you referred to, has been there consistently for minorities, for African-Americans in the state of Mississippi.

JACKSON: What Mississippi in 1940? This is the state where (UNINTELLIGBLE) was killed, the state where we saw the lynchings.

NOVAK: He wasn't even born then.

JACKSON: The state of 1940, where blacks were denied the right to vote. We must not continuously tread lightly on something as destructive as racism in our country. And I think people like Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice and the Anti Defamation League and (UNINTELLIGIBLE), all people on the bipartisan, goodwill basis should say no to this kind of leadership. And it must be rejected.

PENCE: And I have and I will, but this was a man -- it's important to remember Trent Lott was seven years old in 1948.

NOVAK: I think somebody has to say a good word for Trent Lott.

BEGALA: He's said lots of them. I want to set the record straight.

NOVAK: We've just been attacking the hell out of him. And Reverend Jackson, when James Meredith was admitted to the University of Mississippi -- and this is on the public record -- one of the student leaders at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) University, who tried to prevent the violence, was a fellow named Trent Lott. He kept his fraternity out of the race riot. He got a national award from his fraternity.

Why do you ignore that record that he had (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when he was just a young boy (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

JACKSON: If you ignore his pattern of racist word and behavior and associations and anti-equality, anti-labor...

NOVAK: How do you respond to what I just said?

JACKSON: I think it begs a question.

NOVAK: What do you mean begs a question? He fought against violence and racism?

JACKSON: So now you say that Trent Lott led a civil rights demonstration? Where were you?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me read to you from the public record.

PENCE: If I can -- it's so important. A man, open mouth insert foot. This happens to every one of us that aren public life, just as Tom Daschle said.

I just met Reverend Jackson for the first time tonight. He has as men of his stature make comments that other people have suggested things about his character that were false.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: I don't believe Jesse Jackson is anti-semitic os aome attributed because of a comment, and Trent Lott is not racist.

BEGALA: You a moment ago made a statement how Trent Lott has been there on civil rights. He has been there on the wrong side candidly.

Let me read to you from the public record as reported by "The Washington Post." "`The Council of Conservative Citizens,'" the "Post" reported, "has tried for years to pass itself off as respectable, mainstream organization,' said Joe Roy, director of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project. `But the fact is that this group is shot through with white supremacist views, members and politcal positions.' In a 1992 speech in Greenwood Mississippi, Lott told CCC members: `The people in this room stand for the right principles and the right philosophy. Let's take it in the direction, and our children will be the beneficiaries."

Now, that does not sound to me like a man who has sorts of commitments I know you have and others have on civil rights.

PENCE: This is a man who has said, majority leader of the United States, who I believe that he was not aware of the individuals in that organization and their racist intent.

NOVAK: And the Democratic Governor, Ray Mabis (ph) said the same thing. Reverend Jackson when you talked about (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you asked for forgiveness. Why can't you give the seam to Trent Lott?

JACKSON: In Trent Lott we see a pattern, a policy that is dangerous. He represents the worst of archaic Southern racism. Old Neanderthal Confederacy, and deserve better. If you want to embrace Trent Lott, you got it.

NOVAK: What can you give him the same (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I gave you when you made anti-semitic remarks? I never attacked you for that.

(APPLAUSE)

JACKSON: You are dealing in the version...

NOVAK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) It's the facts.

JACKSON: The head of the U.S. Senate has stated yet another time, Conservative Citizens Council, or Reagan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mississippi or just this past week. If you want to embrace that legacy...

NOVAK: I resent you saying I embrace it. So don't you attack me.

JACKSON: What is your position?

NOVAK: I want to know why you can't...

JACKSON: What is your position on Trent Lott. Speak to me.

NOVAK: I think as a Christian I accept his forgiveness. And I'm disapointed...

JACKSON: He didn't ask for forgiveness. He gave an explanation not an apology.

NOVAK: He said I apologize. JACKSON: Do you accept Trent Lott's position and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) behavior?

NOVAK: That's demagoguery.

BEGALA: That will be the last word. Reverend Jesse Jackson, thank you for joining us. Congressman Michael Pence from Indiana, thank you for joining us, both.

When we come back here at CROSSFIRE, Connie Chung will have the latest on tonight's breaking news. Learn where the U.S. has found a dozen scud missiles.

Plus Jimmy Carter proudly accepted the Nobel Peace Prize today with some, inclueding my distinguished colleague on the right, thinks the prize has become so political it is team to do away with it.

And "Our Quote of the Day" comes from one of Al Gore's former colleagues who's got some pretty frank advice for the man who got more votes than George W. Bush. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Next on CROSSFIRE is it time to retire the Nobel Peace Prize? Good riddance I'd say.

And "Our Quote of the Day" comes from a Democratic senator who's out to help Al Gore make up his mind whether to run for president again. You may be surprised what he advises.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Now for "Our Quote of the Day," something the Democratic front runner for 2004 probably doesn't want to hear. Former Vice President Al Gore is trying to decide whether to make another run for the presidency.

Senator Byron Dorgan, a Democrat from North Dakota, has some crisp advice: "Don't do it."

Dorgan says his views haven't changed since last April, when he blamed Gore for publicly giving up in North Dakota and many other states long before the campaign was over.

"It's one thing to try to and fail," Dorgan wrote to Gore then, "but I think it's unforgivable to fail to try. I want a presidential candidate who will give us a fighting chance in the heartland states."

BEGALA: So maybe my friend Al Gore should mark Senator Dorgan down as undecided. He's sort of on the fence there.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Gore, by the say, you know this, but our audience should know, will be here on the CROSSFIRE set in January. And he'll take all of your questions, mine, and we'll be able to sort it out then.

NOVAK: OK.

BEGALA: Should be fun.

Coming up though, Jimmy Carter becomes the third American President to win the Nobel Peace prize. One viewer in our "Fireback" segment thinks someone else at this table is more deserving.

And you might think that awarding the prize to Mr. Carter would be a source of pride for all Americans. You would of course be wrong.

We will debate President Carter's controversial prize in just a minute.

Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Former President Jimmy Carter today received the Nobel Peace Prize. Many thought Carter should have won it a quarter century ago when his partners for peace, the Camp David Summit, Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin won.

Carter's nomination apparently back then arrived too late. In addition to his work as president, Carter was honored today for his post-presidential commitment to peace and democracy around the world.

Now who could quarrel with an American president's commitment to peace and democracy being honored with a Nobel Prize?

Well, apparently the vast and vocal right wing, that's who. To debate the politics of the peace prize, Katrina Vanden Heuvel joins us from New York. She is the editor of "The Nation."

And here in Washington, Cliff May, former spokesman for the Republican National Committee, now with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you all for joining us.

MAY: Thank you.

NOVAK: Katrina Vanden Heuvel, maybe you could help me figure out why in the world Jimmy Carter deserves this. He went to Haiti and we now have an ugly dictatorship there. He made a terrible deal with North Korea. They have nuclear weapons and we're scared to death of them. And don't tell me he brought peace to the Middle East. What did he do for peace?

KARTINA VANDEN HEUVEL, "THE NATION": Well, I disagree with everything you've said, Bob, which isn't unusual.

I think Jimmy Carter speaks to the highest, the truest values of American democracy. He speaks to a respect for human rights, respect for rule of law, respect for international law, and a respect for the true universal declaration of human rights in the tradition of Eleanor Roosevelt -- adequate shelter, food, health care.

He is the greatest ex-president in modern times, and he is speaking out against a foreign policy that is not in the best traditions of America. And if an ex-president can't speak out, who can?

There is a taboo in this country against speaking out because it tries to silence legitimate debate about issues of war and peace, the most important issues of our time, country and world.

BEGALA: Cliff May, let me quote you the great philosopher, the muse of our youth, Elvis Costello, who sang "What's so funny about peace love and understanding?" What do you have against Jimmy Carter?

MAY: It's not anything against Jimmy Carter. He's a very nice man.

NOVAK: Katrina, are you listening?

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: Well, I think -- there's a problem with a number of things that he's done and have happened in regard to this theme.

The head of the Nobel Prize Committee said he was giving Carter this award as a kick in the leg to President Bush. That's awful. And I would have liked Carter to say, "I don't want to accept it on that basis."

We've also had Carter criticize not just President Bush, but President Clinton, President Reagan and the first Bush. He said he was disappointed in all of them. President Reagan, after all, liberated the people of Eastern Europe from Soviet Communism.

President Clinton liberated the people of Bosnia and Kosovo...

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MAY: No, not exactly. And President Bush 41, he liberated the people of Kuwait. I don't think that Jimmy Carter should be out there in Norway saying he's disappointed in his successors.

NOVAK: But Cliff...

VANDEN HEUVEL: That is so un-American and un-Democratic. Why can't a person...

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: I'm being called un-American now by Katrina Vanden Heuvel.

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... why shouldn't an ex-president be able to speak in the greatest traditions of American democracy? Why do we have a two-party system? Why can't he speak to what he sees as the highest aspirations of American engagement with the world as a leader of hope, not resentment?

And might I add, the foreign -- this Nobel Peace Prize, which I know Mr. Novak has criticized, was given Mikhail Gorbachev, who liberated his country in many ways.

NOVAK: He didn't deserve it either.

VANDEN HEUVEL: It was Andrei Sakharov and Lech Walesa and the Burmese dissident, all of those prizes...

NOVAK: It was given to...

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... were not ones, Bob, you criticized because you respect other countries dissidents, not dissident thinking in your own country.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: It also went to Kofi Annan and Rigoberta Menchu.

NOVAK: Katrina, I want you to -- I'll read to you...

VANDEN HEUVEL: Respect your own country, Bob.

NOVAK: Katrina, I want you to listen to what Gunnar Berge, got into, the Nobel Committee Chairman, that Cliff mentioned, said exactly about the award. Quote, "It should be interpreted as a criticism of the line that the current administration has taken. It's a kick in the leg to all that follow the same line as the United States," end quote.

So this has nothing to do with Jimmy Carter. This is a political operation by a bunch of left-wing Scandinavians, isn't it.

(APPLAUSE)

VANDEN HEUVEL: Mr. Novak, let the Swedish...

(APPLAUSE)

... let the Swedish committee member speak for himself, but let Jimmy Carter's extraordinary achievements speak for themselves. And they do.

MAY: Katrina... VANDEN HEUVEL: Ex-president have played golf. He has fought intractable diseases. He has monitored democracy building. I mean, he might have been sent to Florida -- that's another matter. But he has monitored elections in countries bringing democracy to those countries.

And I might add, I think he will bring democracy to Cuba because of that trip he made, speaking on behalf of democracy...

NOVAK: Give me a break...

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... in front of a whole nation.

BEGALA: OK, now let's actually listen to what President Carter said today. I think this is why you and a few others on the far right are so upset with what President Carter -- receiving the award -- because of what he said today.

He spoke, as Katrina pointed out, in the great American tradition of speaking the truth to power.

Here's what Jimmy Carter had to say.

MAY: Speaking truth to power, OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES E. CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For powerful countries to adopt a principle of preventive law may well set an example that have catastrophic consequences.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: See, this went against the right wing's political and patriotic correctness. Whether it's Brent Scowcroft of Jimmy Carter, you guys want to crush any dissent to the war...

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: ... that you so desperately seek, don't you?

MAY: I think we have had for a long time and we don't have I guess any more, is the principle that when a former president leaves our shores he doesn't criticize those who succeed him in the White House.

There's plenty of room on this show, all around America, to voice dissent. But don't do it over there when you're accepting an award. Don't slap the man who succeeded you in the Oval Office.

(APPLAUSE)

MAY: That's not right. That's bad form.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) cameras there.

MAY: That's inappropriate.

NOVAK: All right...

VANDEN HEUVEL: But Cliff, that taboo is so overused to silence legitimate dissent. What Jimmy Carter said should be said on any shore. We are now a nation, I mean a globalized world.

NOVAK: Wait...

MAY: Katrina...

VANDEN HEUVEL: What he said about preemptive war...

MAY: ... look...

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... speaks again to the best traditions of America...

NOVAK: We don't have much time. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MAY: She doesn't let anybody get a word in edgewise.

NOVAK: Katrina...

MAY: This is not preemptive war. We've been at war with Saddam Hussein since 1991.

NOVAK: I want to get away from Iraq for a minute. I want to talk about the Nobel Peace prize winners. We could give a whole rogues gallery, but I'm just going to pick five of them in reverse order. In 1994, Yasser Arafat, a terrorist, 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev -- he tried to save communism...

MAY: That was a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NOVAK: In 1973, Le Duc Tho a communist thug in North Vietnam who was just plotting to destroy democracy in South Vietnam, 1933, Sir Norman Angell, an appeaser of Hitler who wanted to appease the Nazi regime. And the worst of all, 1919, Woodrow Wilson, who created a peace treaty that created the beginning of World War II.

Don't you think with that rogues gallery, we ought to do away with the Nobel Peace prize, Katrina?

VANDEN HEUVEL: I don't. I know they won't be giving it to Trent Lott, but might I add they've given it to Nelson Mandela, Lech Walesa, Andrei Sakharov, Mikhail Gorbachev, who changed this world in ways Reagan admired.

MAY: Let me just suggest...

VANDEN HEUVEL: And they protected...

MAY: ... if we may get a word in.

VANDEN HEUVEL: and they protected a Burmese dissident. NOVAK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MAY: She goes on and on.

Let me just put a word in here. You know, we think about (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, I'm not on the other shore. I'm in my own country, so let me, Cliff.

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: We give you more time, Katrina, than anybody else, on each show.

Look, I think we should and you should think about this too, that we give prizes not just for maintaining the peace, which people tried to do during the 1930s, but also for liberation. There should be, as Newt Gingrich has said, a liberation prize, liberating people from tyranny and oppression.

That's as important as maintaining peace for a few more years while people are as oppressed as they are in Iraq, for example.

BEGALA: So you want to follow Newt Gingrich, the Gingrich prize, we would award.

MAY: I want a prize for liberation. I want a prize for people...

BEGALA: Who would you -- who would you award the...

MAY: I'll tell you...

BEGALA: As Katrina pointed out...

MAY: ... I'll answer your question.

BEGALA: No, wait a minute.

MAY: I'll answer your question.

BEGALA: How about Lech Walesa and by the way, John Paul II, who really ended communism.

Ronald Reagan had nothing to do with that.

MAY: That's not true. There's...

NOVAK: Had nothing to with ending communism?

BEGALA: Had nothing to do with it.

MAY: Oh, my God. That's not -- that's something else...

BEGALA: No more than John Kennedy or Harry Truman or any other American...

MAY: Let me point out that, let me point out that Churchill never won a Nobel Prize and he should have because he...

BEGALA: And Mother Theresa did. Should they take it away from her?

Is that disgrace (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

MAY: No, no it's -- Mother Theresa brings...

NOVAK: All right, ladies and gentlemen...

MAY: Mother Theresa brings honor to the prize. The prize doesn't bring honor to Mother Theresa.

NOVAK: Out of time. Katrina Vanden Heuvel, thank you very much.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Thank you.

NOVAK: Cliff May, thank you.

MAY: Thank you.

After the break, it's your turn to "Fireback" on Jimmy Carter and the Nobel Prize. We'll find out why one viewer thinks one of us should have gotten the it instead.

And we'll see why another viewer thinks Paul Begala needs a change of address.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Time now for "Fireback." Our first e-mail is firing back on the debate we just had, the beauty of e-mail, on the Nobel Peace prize. Jerry Connor (ph) of Fallon (ph), Nevada writes, "I think Bob Novak deserves the peace prize. Anyone who can sit and listen to Paul Begala and not want to punch him in the face deserves it."

Oh, my good.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: In this face.

NOVAK: Who says I don't want to punch you in the face.

(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: OK, Don Failing, Jr., of Lodi (ph), California, says "How ironic that the worst president in U.S. history got a Nobel Peace prize. It proves that you can only judge the foreign policy literature (ph) of a president after he leaves office. Thank God we elected Ronald Reagan for eight years."

Way to go, Don.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Ronald Reagan was a wonderful in many ways, but he did not have the sort of foreign policy commitment to peace that Jimmy Carter had. God bless Jimmy Carter and I'm glad he won.

Terry Oler (ph), in Yucca Valley, California writes, "The Democrats may indeed be a party of tax and spend. The Republicans on the other hand just put it on the credit card for the next generation to pay."

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Good point, Terry.

NOVAK: Oh, and Gary Larsen (ph) of Seabrook, Texas says, "Bob, please tell Paul Begala to stop telling people he is from Sugarland, Texas. Makes everybody think that Texans are a bunch of left-wing radicals. You are an embarrassment to all those things.

BEGALA: Oh, no, look at these boots, man. These are not from Washington, let me tell you.

These are from back home.

NOVAK: First question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Jared Orem (ph) from New City, New York. How can the Democrats assail Senator Lott for his comments when they have former KKK member in Robert Byrd in their caucus.

BEGALA: Because Byrd was in the KKK 60 years ago. And Lott said this three days ago. So there is an enormous difference.

NOVAK: You heard from Jesse Jackson. He was attacking Lott for some thing that happened 10 years before he was born. So it really doesn't matter.

BEGALA: He's a disgrace. Republicans ought to pick somebody like Richard Lugar...

NOVAK: Next question.

BEGALA: ... of Indiana to be their leader, not this disgrace of Trent Lott.

NOVAK: You know, I'll tell you something. You do not pick the Republican leaders. I don't pick the Democratic leaders. (LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: And you don't pick the Republican leaders.

BEGALA: It would be a better country if I did.

NOVAK: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Lauren from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And I was wondering why we should throw out little Jimmy who spends him time building houses for poor people instead of throwing out big Trent who spends him time torturing black people.

BEGALA: Oh, excellent.

NOVAK: He doesn't torture any black people.

I say little Jimmy, I give him credit for building houses. I think he should have been a carpenter. He certainly wasn't a good president.

BEGALA: Well, you know, actually it's Sam Rayburn from Texas who once said, "It takes a real carpenter to build something, but any jack ass can knock it down."

And that's what the right does so much better than we do. They just knock down every good thing we do.

Yes, ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Rachel from Penifield (ph), New York. And I was wondering what do you have to say to this new proof that we're not going to attack North Korea when they do have nuclear weapons, but we are attacking Iraq, and we have no proof. Do you think this gives credence to the theory that it's all about the oil fields?

NOVAK: It has a lot to do with Israel. It has a lot to do with Middle East politics, and it has a lot to do with oil and it bothers me.

BEGALA: And Bush's utter lack of focus in foreign policy.

NOVAK: Oh.

BEGALA: It's al Qaida, stupid. He should be going after al Qaida, wherever they are.

NOVAK: I just listened to the Democrats saying "Go get them, George W." This is not a partisan thing.

Question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Matt, Arlington, Virginia. Is the Bush administration's economic policy strong enough to win re-election in 2004? BEGALA: No.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Well, I think...

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: ... against the -- against that all-star cast that's going to run against him, I think he can make it.

BEGALA: He's bringing back every retread from the Millard Fillmore administration and Hubert Hoover. He's toast -- book it.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Lott's Comments on Thurmond May Have Cause Damage to His Leadership>


Aired December 10, 2002 - 19:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: Scud missiles have been found on a ship sailing out of North Korea. Does this mean the U.S. government's almost exclusive focus on Iraq needs to be adjusted?
Trent Lott apologizes, but some are still calling for his head over the way he wished Strom Thurmond happy birthday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: He voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all of these problems over all these years either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is Lott's Senate leadership position now in jeopardy?

Jimmy Carter takes home the Nobel Peace Prize. An honor long overdue or a poor pick for a politicized prize?

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University: Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE.

When once and future majority leader of the Senate Trent Lott joined in the lighthearted toasting of colleague Strom Thurmond on his 100th birthday, he may have gone a bit overboard. And sure enough, the storm troopers of political correctness are out for blood. Thought police chief Jesse Jackson will be joining us.

We'll no longer have to listen to the Carter worshippers grouse about the former president getting passed over for the Nobel so-called Peace Prize. He has it. The Carter legacy and the prize do belong together in the dustbin of history.

But first, some breaking news CNN is following. U.S. forces have found at least a dozen Scud missiles on board a ship off the coast of Yemen; a ship that sailed out of North Korea. CNN's Kris Osborn joins us live from the Pentagon with the latest -- Kris.

KRIS OSBORN, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: That's right. Good evening to you, Bob. Well, Pentagon officials tell CNN that roughly 12 Scud missiles were found aboard what's being described as a stateless vessel on its way, as you mentioned, from North Korea to the Horn of Africa. It is currently about 200 miles southeast of Yemen and it is believed to have Scud missiles on board.

Now here's how some of the events transpired. The vessel was intercepted by two Spanish warships yesterday who boarded the ship, only then to discover piles of cement underneath, upon which further examination was merited. U.S. officials were called in.

U.S. military ordnance officials, explosive experts are currently on board the ship. They have confirmed that, indeed, Scud missiles were beneath the cement on board. Right now the ship is still very much out in the waters. They're seeking to stabilize the vessel before bringing it into port.

Certainly raises a number of interesting and significant concerns. One of them being if indeed the ship left North Korea. We understand CNN has learned that it has been monitored by U.S. intelligence since departing North Korea, although described at this point as a stateless vessel, meaning it lacks the specific paperwork needed to verify that the North Korea government was cognizant or aware, in fact, of this vessel.

Secondly, of course, no small amount of concern here among U.S. military intelligence officials that the intention to bring Scud missiles to the Horn of Africa certainly causing some no small degree of alarm -- Bob.

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Kris Osborn, thank you very much for that report from the Pentagon. Joining us to offer his insight and expertise on the issue, Ken Adelman, former director of the United States Arms Control and Disarmament Agency now with defensecentral.com -- Mr. Adelman.

NOVAK: Ken Adelman, nobody knows whether Iraq has nuclear weapons or not. No sign that they do. North Korea may have them. No sign that Iraq is sending any kind of aid to the al Qaeda rebels. These Scuds may be going to al Qaeda rebels in the Horn of Africa. Are we after the wrong bandits?

KEN ADELMAN, DEFENSECENTRAL.COM: No, I would say that we should be after all bandits. What this shows probably is that when President Bush talks about the axis of evil, he names three states: Iraq, Iran and North Korea. All of them are problem areas, all of them require vigorous American action.

We know that right now Iranians are in revolt against their government, and we should help that. We know about Iraq. And it's not true that there is no connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. There is a connection, we talked about it a lot. But you are unconvinced that there is. And North Korea, as we saw tonight, it is not only shipping Scud missiles, but has announced recently it has nuclear weapons, and it probably has two or three. The combination of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, and especially total disregard on exporting, is a very dangerous combination.

NOVAK: They seem -- North Korea seems to be the greater (UNINTELLIGIBLE) danger. We're not going after North Korea because they're too dangerous? Is that the answer?

ADELMAN: That is partly it, Bob. No, you are absolutely right. The thing is, we're not going after North Korea because North Korea has two or three nuclear weapons and can make more. OK? We don't want to get into a situation in Iraq where Iraq has two or three nuclear weapons, and therefore we cannot do anything when they start exporting weapons of mass destruction.

BEGALA: Well, first off, we can do something. Let me quote to you from our then chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Bob Graham. First of all, let me say, and I'm sure you would agree, congratulations to our intelligence services under George Tenet, the director of Central Intelligence, who did track this and did find it. And everybody has to agree that is a terrific coup for American intelligence.

Our chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee had this to say when asked several months ago about North Korea versus Iraq. He said this, "If you put the two -- North Korea and Iraq -- on the scales and ask the question, 'Which today is the greatest threat to the United States of America?' I would answer that question North Korea. And I think that needs to be a part of the re-balancing of our foreign policy priorities."

Bob Graham, Democrat from Florida, was right. President Bush was asleep at the switch wasn't he?

ADELMAN: No, I don't think that's right at all. First of all, what would you do about North Korea? Secondly, the fact is that both North Korea and Iraq and Iran are causing problems right now.

BEGALA: But let me ask you, what do we do? What should the punishment be? If the punishment for Iraq, which, as Bob points out, which does not have a nuclear weapon and is not definitive proof they aid al Qaeda, the punishment with them is war. What's the punishment for North Korea, which provably has a nuclear weapon and is almost certainly aiding al Qaeda? What's the punishment there?

ADELMAN: What you have to do is stop European investment in North Korea. We have to stop the shipments of oil that we have been sending there for the last several years.

NOVAK: But not war.

ADELMAN: Well, we have to fortify. Not war, but we have to fortify the border right there. We have to make sure that the South Koreans and the Japanese are realistic about North Korea. Listen, we lived in a dream world and they, especially, have lived in a dream world, that if only you have a sunshine policy, like the South Koreans call it -- the Secretary of State Madeleine Albright went over there and was thrilled by her discussions there with the tyrant.

NOVAK: What we're relying on, Mr. Adelman, is deterrence -- the same thing we used with the Soviet Union for half a century -- against the North Koreans. If deterrence is good against the North Koreans, why isn't deterrence good against the Iraqis?

ADELMAN: Well, A, we're doing more than just deterrence against North Korea. In other words, we're trying to stop any kind of international commerce and fortification of that regime. So it's not just deterrence, but it's a kind of active approach to, you know, alter the regime or bring regime change right there.

NOVAK: But we're deterring them from using their nuclear weapons.

ADELMAN: I don't know how we're deterring them from using nuclear weapons.

NOVAK: Because we have a hell of a lot of them.

ADELMAN: We have 30,000 American troops right there to stop their aggression. It's not to stop nuclear weapons, but it's to stop their aggression across the south. The problem with Iraq is that, unlike North Korea, Iraq has gassed its own people, and gassed its neighbors. Iraq has invaded two of its neighbors right now, Iran and Kuwait.

Iraq has a connection that is, I think, clear with al Qaeda, than the connection with North Korea. I'm not -- I don't want to be in the situation of saying North Korea isn't a terrible actor on the world stage. It's a terrible actor on the world stage, and we should make sure we do everything to really put them in the box and make sure that we don't fortify that regime in any way.

But the fact is, we don't want a situation in Iraq that gets nuclear weapons. That has deterred us from taking action against North Korea.

BEGALA: But the critics of the president's policy in Iraq have been saying, basically, if it was a campaign slogan, it's al Qaeda, stupid. First off, do you have any doubt? We don't have definitive reporting out of CNN sources, but do you have any doubt that this shipment of Scud missiles to the Horn of Africa, which is an area that is replete with al Qaeda terrorists was, in fact, designed to get to al Qaeda?

ADELMAN: I don't have any doubt, Paul, that it is going to somebody illegal. And somebody who shouldn't get them. I mean, as I understand it, the ship was unmarked. As I understand it, anything North Korea sells is going to bad guys. And the fact is that Scud missiles, in the hands of these terrorist groups or terrorist countries, is a very, very ominous situation.

This is the new world that we are entering right now. And when President Bush says we have to have preemption as a U.S. policy, because we cannot allow these countries to get weapons of mass destruction and a means of delivery with a ballistic missile, he is absolutely right. We have to do something actively to stop that threat, or else we will live in a world that is absolutely dreadful in the future.

BEGALA: Ken Adelman, former adviser to President Reagan, thank you very much for joining us.

(APPLAUSE)

Of course CNN will keep you posted on this story throughout our program and throughout the night. Please stay with us for all of the latest.

But coming up next on CROSSFIRE, our "Political Alert." Among the items we'll be tracking, Strom Thurmond may be 100 years old, but at his party it was actually Trent Lott who came off looking like that goofy old uncle you're too embarrassed to let out of the attic. Despite Senator Lott's self-serving non-apology, reaction from both ends of the political spectrum is snow balling into an avalanche.

Meanwhile, in Oslo, former President Jimmy Carter accepted the Nobel Peace Prize today. I think it's a moment that is a quarter century overdue. You won't be surprised if my co-host sees things a little differently. Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Now, as we do every day, we offer you the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

In Norway today, Jimmy Carter became the third president of the United States to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. Following Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, who actually were most famous for making war. Just what President Carter was honored for is questionable, because it is not clear he brought peace anywhere.

What he has done is break the old rule that former presidents of the United States do not attack foreign policy endeavors of their successors. Instead, he attacked unnamed countries -- meaning the good old USA -- for advocating prevent of war. The Nobel Prize awarders said Mr. Carter was a poor president but a terrific ex- president. He was half right.

BEGALA: You know, I expected the American right wing to have more class, more grace. This is an honor for every American to share in. Our former president receiving one of great honors of the world. And all the right wing can do is carp about it. NOVAK: You know something, Paul, if you were being honest, you would say, Bob, I agree with you. He was a crummy president, and you know it.

BEGALA: Oh, he's a wonderful guy. And we'll debate this later tonight.

Our current president, though, today asked a 71-year-old Wall Street millionaire to run the Securities and Exchange Commission. William Donaldson, a veteran of the Nixon administration -- that would be an administration that began a third of a century ago -- is the former chairman and CEO of the New York Stock Exchange.

He joins fellow Nixon alumnus, Henry Kissinger, who is investigating 9/11, Ford administration official, John Snow, Bush's nominee for treasury secretary, and two former chiefs of staff under President Ford, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. Those five men alone have a combined age of 344, giving the Bush administration more retreads than Bubba's Discount Tire Store back in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Texas.

Meanwhile, word is that the choice of Steven Friedman to be National Economic Council Chairman is in trouble. Friedman, of course, is only 64 years old. White House insiders speculate President Bush would prefer the newly retired Senator Strom Thurmond.

NOVAK: You now, Paul, you have gone too far with this ageism. I am older than all of those people. And so I take that as a personal affront.

BEGALA: No, no, no. Your ideas are old, but you are not old yourself. That's the difference.

NOVAK: I'm older than any of them.

Jesse Jackson yesterday called for Senator Trent Lott to step down as perspective majority leader, and Jesse's followers in the Congressional Black Caucus fell into line today. They're reacting to a remark in jest by the senator at Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party, saying the country would be better off if Thurmond had been elected president as the segregationist candidate in 1948.

The Caucus' new chairman, Elijah Cummings of Maryland, said "The fact is that this man," -- that's Trent Lott -- "is four heartbeats away from the presidency." Wrong, Mr. Cummings. Senator Lott is not in the line of presidential succession. But why care about facts when you are playing the race card?

BEGALA: All I can say is thank god he is not in line for the presidency, nor should he ever be. Principal conservatives are disavowing those statements.

NOVAK: Why don't you tell Elijah that he's not in line for the presidency.

BEGALA: I think that's hardly the heart of the matter. Jesse Jackson himself will be out here in a minute, and he will be debating that, believe me.

President Bush may be stocking his administration, as I mentioned earlier, with veterans of the Ford administration. So one would hope that he is listening to former President Ford himself. The former president tells the current issue of "Esquire," "I have many reservation about Iraq. I don't like Saddam Hussein, that's for sure, but I am not certain this is the time for the United States to unilaterally engage him in a military conflict. Because, as I understand it, we don't have anybody ready to join us."

President Bush responded by declaring former President Ford an enemy combatant. The former president is now being held without a lawyer, without rights and without visitors at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. That's harsh.

NOVAK: Well, you may think that is funny. I don't think it is funny, because, as you know, nobody is being held, no American is being held there without rights.

BEGALA: They're being held here at Norfolk, Virginia without rights.

NOVAK: Not being held in Guantanamo. And, another thing is that President Ford is wrong when he says we won't have anybody with us. We'll have the British with us. They're always with us.

Al Gore hasn't even announced his candidacy and the bad news has started already. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) college poll just out shows a virtual dead heat in the first of the nation primary election in New Hampshire. Thirty-one percent for the former vice president; 28 percent for Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts.

Now Senator Kerry is from a neighboring state. But so is Vermont Governor Howard Dean, and he got just six percent. Furthermore, 44 percent said Al Gore should not run again. Incidentally, the pollsters asked Paul's friend whether Senator Hillary Clinton should run for president. Sixty-eight percent said no to Hillary. You know I think even Paul Begala can do better than that.

BEGALA: Hillary herself has said no. So it's 100 percent deal. Hillary is not going to run. I think that's kind of a shame. I would like to see debates with her and Bush. Bush is not half the woman Hillary is.

NOVAK: Well, I would like to see it, too. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BEGALA: She'd beat him like a bad piece of meat in those debates.

"The New York Times" reports today that the Bush administration is actually making it easier for corporations to strip pension benefits from their older employees. The proposed rules help corporations switch from traditional pensions to what's called cash balance plans, which experts say benefit younger workers at the expense of older workers. This apparently proves that despite being populated with geezers, the Bush administration does not favor older people. In fact, it only favors older people who are also rich, white and male. Now, while it's true that ordinary workers over the age of 55 can be big losers under the Bush plan, corporate kingpins like Jack Welch of GE will still be free to loot the corporate treasuries they control. To paraphrase the old country music song, CEOs get the gold mine, working people get the shaft.

NOVAK: You know, I think you're trying to make up for your vicious attack on me and other old people previously. But the fact of the matter is, if you look into it, Paul, as I'm sure you will, you will find that these plans make pension plans available to more, not fewer Americans.

Coming up on CROSSFIRE, what does it take to do penance for a good-natured comment taken the wrong way? He's apologized for what he said at Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party, but the liberal knives are still sharpened for Senator Trent Lott.

And a loser of a prize goes to a loser of an ex-president. Stay with us for this sorry spectacle from Oslo.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

You know, William Faulkner once wrote that the past isn't over, it isn't even past. Senator Trent Lott, of Faulkner's home state of Mississippi, now knows how right he was. At Senator Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday last week, Senator Lott, the once and future Senate Majority Leader, said if the country had joined his fellow Mississippians in voting for Thurmond for president in 1948 we wouldn't have all these problems.

Thurmond, of course, ran for president as a Dixiecrat on a segregationist platform. From the Family Research Council on the right, to the Congressional Black Caucus on the left, many are reacting with shock. The NAACP has called on Lott to quit his leadership post.

And today, Senator Lott offered an apology, calling his comments a poor choice of words. Of course, others wonder whether any choice of words excuses endorsing a segregationist over Harry Truman.

To debate this issue, we're jond by the Reverend Jesse Jackson, head of the Rainbow Coalition, and Congressman Mike Pence, a Republican from Indiana, and, as of today, the House Deputy Majority Whip, showing that in the House, at least, Republicans pick good leaders, unlike in the Senate.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Reverend Jackson, I'd like to read to you what Senator Lott actually said. We'll put it up on the screen. "A poor choice of words conveyed to some the impression that I embraced the discarded policies of the past. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I apologize to anyone who was offended by my statement." As a man of god, Reverend, can't you accept a person's apology?

REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW COALITION: I can. As a matter of fact, this statement he made was more a pattern on a policy than (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is the same Trent Lott that took Ronald Reagan to Neshoba County, Mississippi, where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) had been killed, to send that signal.

He is embracing -- this is the same Trent Lott who is connected with the white citizens council, the Conservative Citizens Council. This is a pattern of policy. He never made a single move to end the racist pattern and rejects all remedies. He, in fact, should have another post, not leadership of the U.S. Senate.

NOVAK: Well, you know I'm very disappointed in your hard- heartedness on that.

JACKSON: I would expect you to be.

NOVAK: And -- but I want to give a Democrat, who I often disagree with, but I think is a decent man, I want to show you how he reacted to Senator Lott's apologies. Let's listen to the Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: Senator Lott, in my conversation with him this morning, explained that that wasn't how he meant them to be interpreted. I accept that. And I -- there are a lot of times when he and I go to the microphone and would like to say things we meant to say differently. And I'm sure this is one of those cases for him as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Could it be, Reverend, that you want to play the race card and Tom Daschle doesn't?

JACKSON: No. It is that kind of a weakness in a guy like Tom Daschle, where he draws no litmus test line for very offensive racism that goes into racist policy. Democrats must have some sense of integrity on this question of racism and gender bias. And I would think there should be a bipartisan rejection of one whose history and pattern and policy is so overtly insidiously racist.

NOVAK: We'll go back to this history later, but go ahead, Paul.

BEGALA: First, in defense of Tom Daschle, today he issued a statement saying that what Lott had said was wrong and they were offensive to people who believe in freedom and equality. It was smacking Lott back the way that he deserves to be. But first, let me congratulate you, Congressman Pence, on your leadership role in the House Republican majority.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Thank you, Paul. BEGALA: Let me play you the tape of what Trent Lott actually said. Here's what he said. This is the controversial comments. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: It's about my state. When Strom Thurmond ran for president we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: As a leader of the Republican Party, do you embrace or repudiate those comments?

PENCE: I, as Trent Lott did in the last 24 hours, I repudiate them. And the fact is that Trent Lott is a leader in Mississippi and in America whose commitment to civil justice is very clear. Twenty- five percent of African-Americans in Mississippi vote for this man, support this man. A 75 percent approval rating in his own state, even among many minorities.

I think Reverend Jackson and other leaders in this country would recognize that, while there are differences on policies, Trent Lott is not a racist. Trent Lott is not a man who endorses the concept of segregation. He is a man who misspoke here. It's grievous, I know. He personally is saddened about it, Paul, and has done everything to take eit back.

JACKSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), when Meredith was there. He didn't stand for public accommodations. He didn't stand for the right to vote. He, in fact, has this association with the White Citizens Council. The fact is that Trent Lott did take Reagan to Philadelphia, Mississippi. It's known for only one thing, really, it's where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was killed. And so these signals can no longer be ignored.

PENCE: Well --and I think there are signals and there's a way to read that.

NOVAK: That was 20 years ago, Jesse. Twenty years ago.

PENCE: We can also look at a 30-year career in the Congress, Reverend Jackson, and recognize that this is a man, who despite the associations that you referred to, has been there consistently for minorities, for African-Americans in the state of Mississippi.

JACKSON: What Mississippi in 1940? This is the state where (UNINTELLIGBLE) was killed, the state where we saw the lynchings.

NOVAK: He wasn't even born then.

JACKSON: The state of 1940, where blacks were denied the right to vote. We must not continuously tread lightly on something as destructive as racism in our country. And I think people like Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice and the Anti Defamation League and (UNINTELLIGIBLE), all people on the bipartisan, goodwill basis should say no to this kind of leadership. And it must be rejected.

PENCE: And I have and I will, but this was a man -- it's important to remember Trent Lott was seven years old in 1948.

NOVAK: I think somebody has to say a good word for Trent Lott.

BEGALA: He's said lots of them. I want to set the record straight.

NOVAK: We've just been attacking the hell out of him. And Reverend Jackson, when James Meredith was admitted to the University of Mississippi -- and this is on the public record -- one of the student leaders at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) University, who tried to prevent the violence, was a fellow named Trent Lott. He kept his fraternity out of the race riot. He got a national award from his fraternity.

Why do you ignore that record that he had (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when he was just a young boy (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

JACKSON: If you ignore his pattern of racist word and behavior and associations and anti-equality, anti-labor...

NOVAK: How do you respond to what I just said?

JACKSON: I think it begs a question.

NOVAK: What do you mean begs a question? He fought against violence and racism?

JACKSON: So now you say that Trent Lott led a civil rights demonstration? Where were you?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me read to you from the public record.

PENCE: If I can -- it's so important. A man, open mouth insert foot. This happens to every one of us that aren public life, just as Tom Daschle said.

I just met Reverend Jackson for the first time tonight. He has as men of his stature make comments that other people have suggested things about his character that were false.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: I don't believe Jesse Jackson is anti-semitic os aome attributed because of a comment, and Trent Lott is not racist.

BEGALA: You a moment ago made a statement how Trent Lott has been there on civil rights. He has been there on the wrong side candidly.

Let me read to you from the public record as reported by "The Washington Post." "`The Council of Conservative Citizens,'" the "Post" reported, "has tried for years to pass itself off as respectable, mainstream organization,' said Joe Roy, director of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project. `But the fact is that this group is shot through with white supremacist views, members and politcal positions.' In a 1992 speech in Greenwood Mississippi, Lott told CCC members: `The people in this room stand for the right principles and the right philosophy. Let's take it in the direction, and our children will be the beneficiaries."

Now, that does not sound to me like a man who has sorts of commitments I know you have and others have on civil rights.

PENCE: This is a man who has said, majority leader of the United States, who I believe that he was not aware of the individuals in that organization and their racist intent.

NOVAK: And the Democratic Governor, Ray Mabis (ph) said the same thing. Reverend Jackson when you talked about (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you asked for forgiveness. Why can't you give the seam to Trent Lott?

JACKSON: In Trent Lott we see a pattern, a policy that is dangerous. He represents the worst of archaic Southern racism. Old Neanderthal Confederacy, and deserve better. If you want to embrace Trent Lott, you got it.

NOVAK: What can you give him the same (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I gave you when you made anti-semitic remarks? I never attacked you for that.

(APPLAUSE)

JACKSON: You are dealing in the version...

NOVAK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) It's the facts.

JACKSON: The head of the U.S. Senate has stated yet another time, Conservative Citizens Council, or Reagan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mississippi or just this past week. If you want to embrace that legacy...

NOVAK: I resent you saying I embrace it. So don't you attack me.

JACKSON: What is your position?

NOVAK: I want to know why you can't...

JACKSON: What is your position on Trent Lott. Speak to me.

NOVAK: I think as a Christian I accept his forgiveness. And I'm disapointed...

JACKSON: He didn't ask for forgiveness. He gave an explanation not an apology.

NOVAK: He said I apologize. JACKSON: Do you accept Trent Lott's position and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) behavior?

NOVAK: That's demagoguery.

BEGALA: That will be the last word. Reverend Jesse Jackson, thank you for joining us. Congressman Michael Pence from Indiana, thank you for joining us, both.

When we come back here at CROSSFIRE, Connie Chung will have the latest on tonight's breaking news. Learn where the U.S. has found a dozen scud missiles.

Plus Jimmy Carter proudly accepted the Nobel Peace Prize today with some, inclueding my distinguished colleague on the right, thinks the prize has become so political it is team to do away with it.

And "Our Quote of the Day" comes from one of Al Gore's former colleagues who's got some pretty frank advice for the man who got more votes than George W. Bush. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Next on CROSSFIRE is it time to retire the Nobel Peace Prize? Good riddance I'd say.

And "Our Quote of the Day" comes from a Democratic senator who's out to help Al Gore make up his mind whether to run for president again. You may be surprised what he advises.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Now for "Our Quote of the Day," something the Democratic front runner for 2004 probably doesn't want to hear. Former Vice President Al Gore is trying to decide whether to make another run for the presidency.

Senator Byron Dorgan, a Democrat from North Dakota, has some crisp advice: "Don't do it."

Dorgan says his views haven't changed since last April, when he blamed Gore for publicly giving up in North Dakota and many other states long before the campaign was over.

"It's one thing to try to and fail," Dorgan wrote to Gore then, "but I think it's unforgivable to fail to try. I want a presidential candidate who will give us a fighting chance in the heartland states."

BEGALA: So maybe my friend Al Gore should mark Senator Dorgan down as undecided. He's sort of on the fence there.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Gore, by the say, you know this, but our audience should know, will be here on the CROSSFIRE set in January. And he'll take all of your questions, mine, and we'll be able to sort it out then.

NOVAK: OK.

BEGALA: Should be fun.

Coming up though, Jimmy Carter becomes the third American President to win the Nobel Peace prize. One viewer in our "Fireback" segment thinks someone else at this table is more deserving.

And you might think that awarding the prize to Mr. Carter would be a source of pride for all Americans. You would of course be wrong.

We will debate President Carter's controversial prize in just a minute.

Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Former President Jimmy Carter today received the Nobel Peace Prize. Many thought Carter should have won it a quarter century ago when his partners for peace, the Camp David Summit, Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin won.

Carter's nomination apparently back then arrived too late. In addition to his work as president, Carter was honored today for his post-presidential commitment to peace and democracy around the world.

Now who could quarrel with an American president's commitment to peace and democracy being honored with a Nobel Prize?

Well, apparently the vast and vocal right wing, that's who. To debate the politics of the peace prize, Katrina Vanden Heuvel joins us from New York. She is the editor of "The Nation."

And here in Washington, Cliff May, former spokesman for the Republican National Committee, now with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you all for joining us.

MAY: Thank you.

NOVAK: Katrina Vanden Heuvel, maybe you could help me figure out why in the world Jimmy Carter deserves this. He went to Haiti and we now have an ugly dictatorship there. He made a terrible deal with North Korea. They have nuclear weapons and we're scared to death of them. And don't tell me he brought peace to the Middle East. What did he do for peace?

KARTINA VANDEN HEUVEL, "THE NATION": Well, I disagree with everything you've said, Bob, which isn't unusual.

I think Jimmy Carter speaks to the highest, the truest values of American democracy. He speaks to a respect for human rights, respect for rule of law, respect for international law, and a respect for the true universal declaration of human rights in the tradition of Eleanor Roosevelt -- adequate shelter, food, health care.

He is the greatest ex-president in modern times, and he is speaking out against a foreign policy that is not in the best traditions of America. And if an ex-president can't speak out, who can?

There is a taboo in this country against speaking out because it tries to silence legitimate debate about issues of war and peace, the most important issues of our time, country and world.

BEGALA: Cliff May, let me quote you the great philosopher, the muse of our youth, Elvis Costello, who sang "What's so funny about peace love and understanding?" What do you have against Jimmy Carter?

MAY: It's not anything against Jimmy Carter. He's a very nice man.

NOVAK: Katrina, are you listening?

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: Well, I think -- there's a problem with a number of things that he's done and have happened in regard to this theme.

The head of the Nobel Prize Committee said he was giving Carter this award as a kick in the leg to President Bush. That's awful. And I would have liked Carter to say, "I don't want to accept it on that basis."

We've also had Carter criticize not just President Bush, but President Clinton, President Reagan and the first Bush. He said he was disappointed in all of them. President Reagan, after all, liberated the people of Eastern Europe from Soviet Communism.

President Clinton liberated the people of Bosnia and Kosovo...

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MAY: No, not exactly. And President Bush 41, he liberated the people of Kuwait. I don't think that Jimmy Carter should be out there in Norway saying he's disappointed in his successors.

NOVAK: But Cliff...

VANDEN HEUVEL: That is so un-American and un-Democratic. Why can't a person...

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: I'm being called un-American now by Katrina Vanden Heuvel.

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... why shouldn't an ex-president be able to speak in the greatest traditions of American democracy? Why do we have a two-party system? Why can't he speak to what he sees as the highest aspirations of American engagement with the world as a leader of hope, not resentment?

And might I add, the foreign -- this Nobel Peace Prize, which I know Mr. Novak has criticized, was given Mikhail Gorbachev, who liberated his country in many ways.

NOVAK: He didn't deserve it either.

VANDEN HEUVEL: It was Andrei Sakharov and Lech Walesa and the Burmese dissident, all of those prizes...

NOVAK: It was given to...

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... were not ones, Bob, you criticized because you respect other countries dissidents, not dissident thinking in your own country.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: It also went to Kofi Annan and Rigoberta Menchu.

NOVAK: Katrina, I want you to -- I'll read to you...

VANDEN HEUVEL: Respect your own country, Bob.

NOVAK: Katrina, I want you to listen to what Gunnar Berge, got into, the Nobel Committee Chairman, that Cliff mentioned, said exactly about the award. Quote, "It should be interpreted as a criticism of the line that the current administration has taken. It's a kick in the leg to all that follow the same line as the United States," end quote.

So this has nothing to do with Jimmy Carter. This is a political operation by a bunch of left-wing Scandinavians, isn't it.

(APPLAUSE)

VANDEN HEUVEL: Mr. Novak, let the Swedish...

(APPLAUSE)

... let the Swedish committee member speak for himself, but let Jimmy Carter's extraordinary achievements speak for themselves. And they do.

MAY: Katrina... VANDEN HEUVEL: Ex-president have played golf. He has fought intractable diseases. He has monitored democracy building. I mean, he might have been sent to Florida -- that's another matter. But he has monitored elections in countries bringing democracy to those countries.

And I might add, I think he will bring democracy to Cuba because of that trip he made, speaking on behalf of democracy...

NOVAK: Give me a break...

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... in front of a whole nation.

BEGALA: OK, now let's actually listen to what President Carter said today. I think this is why you and a few others on the far right are so upset with what President Carter -- receiving the award -- because of what he said today.

He spoke, as Katrina pointed out, in the great American tradition of speaking the truth to power.

Here's what Jimmy Carter had to say.

MAY: Speaking truth to power, OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES E. CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For powerful countries to adopt a principle of preventive law may well set an example that have catastrophic consequences.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: See, this went against the right wing's political and patriotic correctness. Whether it's Brent Scowcroft of Jimmy Carter, you guys want to crush any dissent to the war...

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: ... that you so desperately seek, don't you?

MAY: I think we have had for a long time and we don't have I guess any more, is the principle that when a former president leaves our shores he doesn't criticize those who succeed him in the White House.

There's plenty of room on this show, all around America, to voice dissent. But don't do it over there when you're accepting an award. Don't slap the man who succeeded you in the Oval Office.

(APPLAUSE)

MAY: That's not right. That's bad form.

BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) cameras there.

MAY: That's inappropriate.

NOVAK: All right...

VANDEN HEUVEL: But Cliff, that taboo is so overused to silence legitimate dissent. What Jimmy Carter said should be said on any shore. We are now a nation, I mean a globalized world.

NOVAK: Wait...

MAY: Katrina...

VANDEN HEUVEL: What he said about preemptive war...

MAY: ... look...

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... speaks again to the best traditions of America...

NOVAK: We don't have much time. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MAY: She doesn't let anybody get a word in edgewise.

NOVAK: Katrina...

MAY: This is not preemptive war. We've been at war with Saddam Hussein since 1991.

NOVAK: I want to get away from Iraq for a minute. I want to talk about the Nobel Peace prize winners. We could give a whole rogues gallery, but I'm just going to pick five of them in reverse order. In 1994, Yasser Arafat, a terrorist, 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev -- he tried to save communism...

MAY: That was a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NOVAK: In 1973, Le Duc Tho a communist thug in North Vietnam who was just plotting to destroy democracy in South Vietnam, 1933, Sir Norman Angell, an appeaser of Hitler who wanted to appease the Nazi regime. And the worst of all, 1919, Woodrow Wilson, who created a peace treaty that created the beginning of World War II.

Don't you think with that rogues gallery, we ought to do away with the Nobel Peace prize, Katrina?

VANDEN HEUVEL: I don't. I know they won't be giving it to Trent Lott, but might I add they've given it to Nelson Mandela, Lech Walesa, Andrei Sakharov, Mikhail Gorbachev, who changed this world in ways Reagan admired.

MAY: Let me just suggest...

VANDEN HEUVEL: And they protected...

MAY: ... if we may get a word in.

VANDEN HEUVEL: and they protected a Burmese dissident. NOVAK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MAY: She goes on and on.

Let me just put a word in here. You know, we think about (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, I'm not on the other shore. I'm in my own country, so let me, Cliff.

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: We give you more time, Katrina, than anybody else, on each show.

Look, I think we should and you should think about this too, that we give prizes not just for maintaining the peace, which people tried to do during the 1930s, but also for liberation. There should be, as Newt Gingrich has said, a liberation prize, liberating people from tyranny and oppression.

That's as important as maintaining peace for a few more years while people are as oppressed as they are in Iraq, for example.

BEGALA: So you want to follow Newt Gingrich, the Gingrich prize, we would award.

MAY: I want a prize for liberation. I want a prize for people...

BEGALA: Who would you -- who would you award the...

MAY: I'll tell you...

BEGALA: As Katrina pointed out...

MAY: ... I'll answer your question.

BEGALA: No, wait a minute.

MAY: I'll answer your question.

BEGALA: How about Lech Walesa and by the way, John Paul II, who really ended communism.

Ronald Reagan had nothing to do with that.

MAY: That's not true. There's...

NOVAK: Had nothing to with ending communism?

BEGALA: Had nothing to do with it.

MAY: Oh, my God. That's not -- that's something else...

BEGALA: No more than John Kennedy or Harry Truman or any other American...

MAY: Let me point out that, let me point out that Churchill never won a Nobel Prize and he should have because he...

BEGALA: And Mother Theresa did. Should they take it away from her?

Is that disgrace (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

MAY: No, no it's -- Mother Theresa brings...

NOVAK: All right, ladies and gentlemen...

MAY: Mother Theresa brings honor to the prize. The prize doesn't bring honor to Mother Theresa.

NOVAK: Out of time. Katrina Vanden Heuvel, thank you very much.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Thank you.

NOVAK: Cliff May, thank you.

MAY: Thank you.

After the break, it's your turn to "Fireback" on Jimmy Carter and the Nobel Prize. We'll find out why one viewer thinks one of us should have gotten the it instead.

And we'll see why another viewer thinks Paul Begala needs a change of address.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Time now for "Fireback." Our first e-mail is firing back on the debate we just had, the beauty of e-mail, on the Nobel Peace prize. Jerry Connor (ph) of Fallon (ph), Nevada writes, "I think Bob Novak deserves the peace prize. Anyone who can sit and listen to Paul Begala and not want to punch him in the face deserves it."

Oh, my good.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: In this face.

NOVAK: Who says I don't want to punch you in the face.

(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: OK, Don Failing, Jr., of Lodi (ph), California, says "How ironic that the worst president in U.S. history got a Nobel Peace prize. It proves that you can only judge the foreign policy literature (ph) of a president after he leaves office. Thank God we elected Ronald Reagan for eight years."

Way to go, Don.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Ronald Reagan was a wonderful in many ways, but he did not have the sort of foreign policy commitment to peace that Jimmy Carter had. God bless Jimmy Carter and I'm glad he won.

Terry Oler (ph), in Yucca Valley, California writes, "The Democrats may indeed be a party of tax and spend. The Republicans on the other hand just put it on the credit card for the next generation to pay."

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Good point, Terry.

NOVAK: Oh, and Gary Larsen (ph) of Seabrook, Texas says, "Bob, please tell Paul Begala to stop telling people he is from Sugarland, Texas. Makes everybody think that Texans are a bunch of left-wing radicals. You are an embarrassment to all those things.

BEGALA: Oh, no, look at these boots, man. These are not from Washington, let me tell you.

These are from back home.

NOVAK: First question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Jared Orem (ph) from New City, New York. How can the Democrats assail Senator Lott for his comments when they have former KKK member in Robert Byrd in their caucus.

BEGALA: Because Byrd was in the KKK 60 years ago. And Lott said this three days ago. So there is an enormous difference.

NOVAK: You heard from Jesse Jackson. He was attacking Lott for some thing that happened 10 years before he was born. So it really doesn't matter.

BEGALA: He's a disgrace. Republicans ought to pick somebody like Richard Lugar...

NOVAK: Next question.

BEGALA: ... of Indiana to be their leader, not this disgrace of Trent Lott.

NOVAK: You know, I'll tell you something. You do not pick the Republican leaders. I don't pick the Democratic leaders. (LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: And you don't pick the Republican leaders.

BEGALA: It would be a better country if I did.

NOVAK: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Lauren from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And I was wondering why we should throw out little Jimmy who spends him time building houses for poor people instead of throwing out big Trent who spends him time torturing black people.

BEGALA: Oh, excellent.

NOVAK: He doesn't torture any black people.

I say little Jimmy, I give him credit for building houses. I think he should have been a carpenter. He certainly wasn't a good president.

BEGALA: Well, you know, actually it's Sam Rayburn from Texas who once said, "It takes a real carpenter to build something, but any jack ass can knock it down."

And that's what the right does so much better than we do. They just knock down every good thing we do.

Yes, ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Rachel from Penifield (ph), New York. And I was wondering what do you have to say to this new proof that we're not going to attack North Korea when they do have nuclear weapons, but we are attacking Iraq, and we have no proof. Do you think this gives credence to the theory that it's all about the oil fields?

NOVAK: It has a lot to do with Israel. It has a lot to do with Middle East politics, and it has a lot to do with oil and it bothers me.

BEGALA: And Bush's utter lack of focus in foreign policy.

NOVAK: Oh.

BEGALA: It's al Qaida, stupid. He should be going after al Qaida, wherever they are.

NOVAK: I just listened to the Democrats saying "Go get them, George W." This is not a partisan thing.

Question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Matt, Arlington, Virginia. Is the Bush administration's economic policy strong enough to win re-election in 2004? BEGALA: No.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Well, I think...

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: ... against the -- against that all-star cast that's going to run against him, I think he can make it.

BEGALA: He's bringing back every retread from the Millard Fillmore administration and Hubert Hoover. He's toast -- book it.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Lott's Comments on Thurmond May Have Cause Damage to His Leadership>