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American Morning
Interview with Glenn Walp, Steven Doran
Aired December 10, 2002 - 09:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Two former security officers at the Los Alamos national lab claim they were hired to investigate corruption and then were fired when they found it. Glenn Walp and Steven Doran say there is a culture of theft at that New Mexico facility that threatens national security.
Lab officials contend it was -- quote -- "aggressive and combative behavior" that led to their dismissal. Let's talk with both of them. Walp and Doran join us live from Santa Fe, New Mexico with their side of the story.
Gentlemen, good morning to you.
GLENN WALP, FORMER SECURITY OFFICER, LOS ALAMOS: Good morning, Bill.
STEVEN DORAN, FORMER SECURITY OFFICER, LOS ALAMOS: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: I am doing just fine here, thanks for coming on.
Glenn -- Steve, I don't know who wants to take this one. Describe the culture of theft right now that you say you found and discovered and uncovered.
WALP: I'll take that, Bill. We were given a mandate in part to investigate the theft at the lab, and what we found was an environment of theft that was pervasive throughout the lab that amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer dollars being taken off of that hill.
We were aggressive and we ferreted out the crime, the criminals, but to certain people within the lab, they felt that was negative to their image and their upcoming contract, and on multiple occasions told us that our major job was not really the investigating of crime, but rather to protect the lab, its contract, and its image. It reached the point where they blocked us in many areas, culminating in a situation where they were attempting to settle a federal felony in- house without taking it through the appropriate federal criminal processes, and I challenged them at that time and said unless they do the right thing by the law, I was going to make a whistleblower complaint.
Ultimately, the DOEIG came in. Steve was interviewed on Monday, I was interviewed on Wednesday, we were fired on Monday. I think the American public can do the math on that one. HEMMER: Hey Glenn, wait a second here. What was their incentive to get rid of you guys? They wanted this information not to be public?
WALP: That was a big factor. They were afraid of the image on multiple occasions. We were told that our main job was not to, in fact, even help in prosecutions. In fact, one attorney out of the legal council told me they were not even concerned about violating people's constitutional rights. What they were concerned of, their responsibility and my major responsibility, was protecting the lab.
HEMMER: OK, now listen. The lab disagrees with both of you gentlemen, and I'm sure you've heard this before, but just so our viewers know, a spokesperson for the lab says, in part, "There is no culture of theft here. The unaccounted property accounts for between one tenth and two tenths of 1 percent. Our record on managing property and keeping track of it is very good."
Steven, take that one. Isn't he right, though?
DORAN: I'm sorry, Bill...
HEMMER: Is he not right and the track record is very good when it comes down to theft, especially when you compare it to private industry? That is their point.
DORAN: No, sir, he's not. Basically what they are doing is they are manipulating the numbers. What they do is, if they don't report an item stolen, if they report it lost, then it doesn't count against them. They also whitewash the figures by using depreciation. So what they'll do is if a computer is stolen on Monday, it's a day old, what they'll do is they'll say it's old technology and they'll depreciate the value down to zero.
HEMMER: So all this you're saying was an effort on their part to help shield themselves from bad publicity, publicity that's really been bad for the past several years for that lab?
DORAN: Yes. Like Glenn mentioned, the entire time that we were performing our investigations, instead of being praised for what we were doing, we were constantly being roadblocked to the point that we were ordered not to talk to the Federal Bureau of Investigations. The lead investigator, Agent Campbell (ph), you know, asked them on more than one occasion if we could be put back on the case. He was told no. So, like I said, I mean, the whole intention of the lab was for us to protect the lab, not do our job...
HEMMER: Steven, in a yes or no answer here, is the climate still ripe there today, nothing's changed?
DORAN: Nothing's changed.
HEMMER: All right. Listen, there is another quote here I am going to put up from the lab.
"At no time," they say, "at no time in the ongoing investigation of misuse of government purchase cards or the alleged conspiracy to defraud the lab through misuse of the purchase order system has there been any indication whatsoever of a compromise of national security."
What about it, Glenn? You say taxpayers have lost hundreds of millions of dollars in this. What about national security? Has any of this been violated?
WALP: I say there's a real concern there, Bill, for this reason. Two individuals, as public record, Busilini (ph) and Alexander (ph), what we call the NIS case, they purchased with taxpayer money and had in their possession, for example, they all the keys to the kingdom of that very secure area. They had purchased RF indicates if a bug is in the area. They had multiple GPS systems, a GPS finder system meaning that if you bury something, you can find it later.
They bought model airplanes that actually could videotape over the ground if they flew them around that area. They had precision cameras, binoculars, they had what we call spy-type equipment.
We brought that to the attention of our superiors and they actually made Steve take it out of the report. My concern is this. That what are these people who are changing the light bulbs having the spy-type equipment within their possession, they've been doing this for over two years, where was management, where was the control?
Plus, you had individuals, when you do background on people, they have the highest clearance you can get, and when you do background on these people, you ensure they're not involved in gambling and those types of things that make them vulnerable to espionage.
HEMMER: Got it. Got it. Understand you point. Glenn, in ten seconds or less, what if we thought that you were just bitter men for being hired and fired? What would you say?
WALP: We are not. We have no agenda, we are here for the American taxpayers. We're here for criminal justice. Our background will show that. And we are hoping that something is done by Congress to correct the problems that occur at LANL.
HEMMER: Thank you gentlemen. Glenn Walp, Steven Doran live in Santa Fe, former employees on the investigative side at Los Alamos.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 10, 2002 - 09:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Two former security officers at the Los Alamos national lab claim they were hired to investigate corruption and then were fired when they found it. Glenn Walp and Steven Doran say there is a culture of theft at that New Mexico facility that threatens national security.
Lab officials contend it was -- quote -- "aggressive and combative behavior" that led to their dismissal. Let's talk with both of them. Walp and Doran join us live from Santa Fe, New Mexico with their side of the story.
Gentlemen, good morning to you.
GLENN WALP, FORMER SECURITY OFFICER, LOS ALAMOS: Good morning, Bill.
STEVEN DORAN, FORMER SECURITY OFFICER, LOS ALAMOS: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: I am doing just fine here, thanks for coming on.
Glenn -- Steve, I don't know who wants to take this one. Describe the culture of theft right now that you say you found and discovered and uncovered.
WALP: I'll take that, Bill. We were given a mandate in part to investigate the theft at the lab, and what we found was an environment of theft that was pervasive throughout the lab that amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer dollars being taken off of that hill.
We were aggressive and we ferreted out the crime, the criminals, but to certain people within the lab, they felt that was negative to their image and their upcoming contract, and on multiple occasions told us that our major job was not really the investigating of crime, but rather to protect the lab, its contract, and its image. It reached the point where they blocked us in many areas, culminating in a situation where they were attempting to settle a federal felony in- house without taking it through the appropriate federal criminal processes, and I challenged them at that time and said unless they do the right thing by the law, I was going to make a whistleblower complaint.
Ultimately, the DOEIG came in. Steve was interviewed on Monday, I was interviewed on Wednesday, we were fired on Monday. I think the American public can do the math on that one. HEMMER: Hey Glenn, wait a second here. What was their incentive to get rid of you guys? They wanted this information not to be public?
WALP: That was a big factor. They were afraid of the image on multiple occasions. We were told that our main job was not to, in fact, even help in prosecutions. In fact, one attorney out of the legal council told me they were not even concerned about violating people's constitutional rights. What they were concerned of, their responsibility and my major responsibility, was protecting the lab.
HEMMER: OK, now listen. The lab disagrees with both of you gentlemen, and I'm sure you've heard this before, but just so our viewers know, a spokesperson for the lab says, in part, "There is no culture of theft here. The unaccounted property accounts for between one tenth and two tenths of 1 percent. Our record on managing property and keeping track of it is very good."
Steven, take that one. Isn't he right, though?
DORAN: I'm sorry, Bill...
HEMMER: Is he not right and the track record is very good when it comes down to theft, especially when you compare it to private industry? That is their point.
DORAN: No, sir, he's not. Basically what they are doing is they are manipulating the numbers. What they do is, if they don't report an item stolen, if they report it lost, then it doesn't count against them. They also whitewash the figures by using depreciation. So what they'll do is if a computer is stolen on Monday, it's a day old, what they'll do is they'll say it's old technology and they'll depreciate the value down to zero.
HEMMER: So all this you're saying was an effort on their part to help shield themselves from bad publicity, publicity that's really been bad for the past several years for that lab?
DORAN: Yes. Like Glenn mentioned, the entire time that we were performing our investigations, instead of being praised for what we were doing, we were constantly being roadblocked to the point that we were ordered not to talk to the Federal Bureau of Investigations. The lead investigator, Agent Campbell (ph), you know, asked them on more than one occasion if we could be put back on the case. He was told no. So, like I said, I mean, the whole intention of the lab was for us to protect the lab, not do our job...
HEMMER: Steven, in a yes or no answer here, is the climate still ripe there today, nothing's changed?
DORAN: Nothing's changed.
HEMMER: All right. Listen, there is another quote here I am going to put up from the lab.
"At no time," they say, "at no time in the ongoing investigation of misuse of government purchase cards or the alleged conspiracy to defraud the lab through misuse of the purchase order system has there been any indication whatsoever of a compromise of national security."
What about it, Glenn? You say taxpayers have lost hundreds of millions of dollars in this. What about national security? Has any of this been violated?
WALP: I say there's a real concern there, Bill, for this reason. Two individuals, as public record, Busilini (ph) and Alexander (ph), what we call the NIS case, they purchased with taxpayer money and had in their possession, for example, they all the keys to the kingdom of that very secure area. They had purchased RF indicates if a bug is in the area. They had multiple GPS systems, a GPS finder system meaning that if you bury something, you can find it later.
They bought model airplanes that actually could videotape over the ground if they flew them around that area. They had precision cameras, binoculars, they had what we call spy-type equipment.
We brought that to the attention of our superiors and they actually made Steve take it out of the report. My concern is this. That what are these people who are changing the light bulbs having the spy-type equipment within their possession, they've been doing this for over two years, where was management, where was the control?
Plus, you had individuals, when you do background on people, they have the highest clearance you can get, and when you do background on these people, you ensure they're not involved in gambling and those types of things that make them vulnerable to espionage.
HEMMER: Got it. Got it. Understand you point. Glenn, in ten seconds or less, what if we thought that you were just bitter men for being hired and fired? What would you say?
WALP: We are not. We have no agenda, we are here for the American taxpayers. We're here for criminal justice. Our background will show that. And we are hoping that something is done by Congress to correct the problems that occur at LANL.
HEMMER: Thank you gentlemen. Glenn Walp, Steven Doran live in Santa Fe, former employees on the investigative side at Los Alamos.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
