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CNN SHOWDOWN: IRAQ
'Sound-Off'
Aired December 10, 2002 - 12:44 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now for our daily Sound-Off segment two special guests, in San Francisco, Bernie Ward, he's the radio talk show host, KGO Radio in San Francisco; from Washington, Cliff May, he's president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy, a think tank on terrorism.
Thanks to you both for joining us.
Bernie, what do you make right now of the maneuvering that's going on the U.S. and the four other permanent members of the Security Council, going through these 11,000 or 12,000 pages of the Iraqi declaration?
BERNIE WARD, KGO RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: There's nothing to it. As I said to you before, this is a very elaborate Kabuki dance. We just had Richard Pearl say Sunday night on "60 Minutes" that no connection, whether there's a connection with terrorism or weapons of mass destruction, it doesn't matter. He told members of parliament in London about a month ago that we're going to go to war no matter what, and he said from his home in the south of France, that we have to go to war to save face for the president, that he'd have no credibility left after all of this talk if we went.
So all of this is one elaborate dance for the United States to eventually get to the point where in January, they've got enough troops in place to simply invade Iraq, and the real reasons have not even begun to be discussed.
BLITZER: Cliff May, I know you totally disagree -- tell us why.
CLIFF MAY, FDN. FOR DEF. OF DEMOCRACIES: I don't totally disagree, but I think the chances for Saddam Hussein to get out of military action are decreasing, and every page that's gone through of this 13,000 words decreases the possibility. I don't think there will be much in this document that was turned over that will be useful or important.
But this week, we had Saddam's spokesman, General An Mir Al Saudi (ph), saying some things, I think inadvertently, that were important. He talked about Saddam Hussein developing nuclear weapons in the present tense. He said we haven't yet developed a bomb -- not we didn't, but we haven't.
He also acknowledged that in 1998 when the inspectors left, Saddam Hussein still had other weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological, and he said there would be no documentation, not a paragraph in all those pages, that would show how they destroyed it. Now, you have to be willfully gullible to believe that when the inspectors were finally are kicked off, Saddam Hussein turned around and said, OK, boys, let's get rid of the weapons of mass destruction, but don't leave any evidence how we did that.
Bernie, are you that gullible?
WARD: Well, I'm not that gullible. The fact of the matter is, first, there's no doubt that he had chemical and biological weapons. We gave them to him. There's no doubt that he used them, with our approval in the Iranian War, and on the Kurds who were supporters of Iraq. There's nothing about this that's new. All of this was known from '91 through '97.
What's going on now, however, is a completely different story, and in fact, Richard Pearl, and I number of other members of the administration, wrote a piece for the Israeli government, saying that the removal of Saddam Hussein, overturning of Iran, overturning of Syria, is the goal to retain Israeli military superiority in the area. That's what this is about.
MAY: What my friend is not understanding is that Saddam Hussein is under obligation, according to the cease fire of 1991, to disarm himself and give up weapons of mass destruction.
WARD: He was under this obligation for 10 years.
MAY: And you're exactly right, and we haven't accomplish it had through all these. So now we have to do it through military means.
WARD: When George Bush ran for election, he never mentioned it at all. He never said this was an important piece of foreign policy.
MAY: All that is is past history. The question is, do we want Saddam Hussein to continue to get stronger and develop weapons of mass destruction?
WARD: Please show me one, please, show me, Cliff, show me one piece of intelligence that he's...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: One at a time. Go ahead, Cliff, finish your sentence.
MAY: My question is, do we really want him to gain weapons of mass destruction that he has pledged to use against us and others? This is a man who has killed more than 180,000 Kurds in his own country and will kill a lot more if we allow him to get stronger.
WARD: I'd be happy, Cliff, if you can show me one piece of intelligence from any credible agency that says he's getting stronger. George Tenet testified in front of the Senate that, and not only is he not associated himself with anybody who is attacking the United States, but that, in fact, the best way to get him to use these weapons is to try to replace him.
MAY: You're wrong.
WARD: I'm not wrong -- George Tenet said it. Are you telling me the director of the CIA is wrong?
MAY: You're misquoting him. We know that Saddam Hussein has a terrorist training facility in Salman Pak (ph), south of Baghdad, where there is a Boeing 747. I don't think that's to teach flight attendants how to serve coffee and tea. He also has connections with Abu Nidal. Other than Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah has killed more Americans than any other organization. You think he has no connections with Hezbollah?
WARD: Hezbollah has no designs on America.
MAY: Just last week, the head of Hezbollah, Sheikh Naz Ralah (ph), said he wanted suicide attacks against all Western interests, including the U.S. You've got to read the papers. You can't just talk on your radio show, sir.
WARD: Hey, Cliff, you know what, what I read is so more extensive than you. But let me remind you a few things -- one, I didn't misquote George Tenet at all, and secondly, the whole question of this south base that you and all the other right are trying to talk about, the administration, Ari Fleischer has been asked about it three times, and all three times he has never said it existed, he has never said the administration says it exists.
MAY: So you don't think it exists?
WARD: I'm telling you that if it existed, why won't the Bush administration say it exists.
MAY: What he did was smart in this case. We're not tipping our hand -- we didn't want to tip our hand before this declaration came out from Saddam Hussein. Anything we put in, he would have revealed.
WARD: Answer my question: Why hasn't the administration ever acknowledged the existence of that base? Why not?
MAY: It exists.
WARD: Why haven't they?
MAY: You're saying it doesn't exist. You say you know Salman Pak (ph) doesn't exist. You say it's made up.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Bernie and Cliff, unfortunately we have to leave it right there. We're going to fight this out on another occasion. We call it our daily "Sound-Off" segment, and our viewers of course understand what we mean. An excellent Sound-Off, Bernie Ward, in San Francisco, Cliff May, in Washington. We'll have both of you back.
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