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Apprehension and Boarding of North Korean Vessel

Aired December 11, 2002 - 10:25   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Back to our top story this morning, the apprehension and the boarding of a North Korean vessel, which had on board some 15 scud missiles. And now, the questions are, where were these missiles headed, and what does all of this mean?
John King is standing by. There was some discussion about all of this there. Let's check and see what John has heard. Morning, John.

What's the word?

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Leon.

This is turning into a potential diplomatic headache for the Bush administration. Yemen now says those missiles were coming to Yemen as part of a legitimate purchase for their Yemeni army. Yemen saying it wants those SCUD missiles delivered. The White House in urgent consultations. Among the Bush team in consultations with the government of Yemen as well. On the table in those discussions we're told by senior officials is the possibility that the United States might have to let the missiles go on to its final destination.

Those missiles were seized, the ship tracked for two weeks, the missiles seized with the cooperation of Spain as well as U.S. Naval assets, seized because the United States says it did not know their final destination. The destination was suspected to be Yemen, but U.S. Officials say they were seized as part of and consistent with the Bush administration doctrine that it has the right to seize weapons of mass destruction or the means of delivering them to keep weapons out of the hands of rogue regimes or terrorist groups.

Now that Yemen, though, Leon, says that it wants those missiles back, the urgent discussions are going, because there is nothing in international law that prohibits such a purchase.

Bush administration officials say they might have to, in the end, allow that shipment to go through. Those consultations continuing with the government that has been a close ally of the United States of late in the war on terrorism.

So a diplomatic issue, a very sensitive one for the Bush administration. We look for further developments throughout the day as the consultations go on.

Some indications that the government of Yemen initially denied this weapons shipment was for Yemen. Now that the weapons have been seized, says it was. So we'll see where this one goes in the hours ahead -- Leon.

HEMMER: How about any implications here, John, or repercussions to come with North Korea and the U.S. on this?

KING: Well, the United States government has urged all of its allies around the world -- the same issue has come up in the relationship with Pakistan. The United States obviously calls North Korea a rogue regime, calls it the world's arms bazaar, says it's selling not only weapons of mass destruction, but the capability to deliver them, like these missiles and missile technology all around the world. The United States has urged all governments around the world not to do business with the government of North Korea, not to provide financial help through these sale to the government of North Korea. So that would be an issue with any government, and it has been an issue with Yemen in the past, as well as Pakistan.

The Bush administration saying it does not want countries it considers to be allies to be doing business with North Korea. There have been sanctions against North Korean companies for selling missile technology in the past in both the Clinton and the Bush administrations.

No secret here, the White House would like to stop the North Korean government from selling this technology and from making money from the sale of this technology. That's one of the reasons this ship was tracked from day one to begin with.

HARRIS: Very rarely is there a black-and-white issue in international diplomacy, and this is further proof of that.

John King at the White House. Thanks, John. We'll see you soon.

Now let's get a closer look at the missiles and their discovery from a security perspective. Joining us now is Kelly McCann. He is CNN security analysts, and he's in our Washington bureau.

Kelly, glad to have you back with us this morning.

Let's start off with the prospect of Yemen actually getting these missiles, now that -- even though they've been confiscated at this particular point. What do you make of that?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I mean, as they took control of the ship, Leon, it became apparent that the registry of the ship, the manifest, nothing matches up. The way it was loaded, was obviously loaded to conceal the fact they were actually moving SCUDs.

So I don't know, it's going to be a contentious issue, and it goes to many nations that could be involved.

HARRIS: You know what, without revealing too much here that may be too sensitive, what I'd like to know is how is it that this ship was picked out as a needle in a haystack literally, from a satellite, this was tracked all the way from North Korea, down through Singapore, and then almost into Yemen. How was it that this ship was picked to begin with for surveillance? MCCANN: Well, a couple of things. From an embarkation standpoint, there's over half a million tons involved of stowage. In other words, the missile platform and the missile itself, combined weight of like 49,000 tons. So I mean, you're moving an awful lot of material.

Secondly, the increased emphasis on all-source fusion intelligence, including image intelligence, signals intelligence, communications intelligence and human intelligence, could give us a very significant single indicator that something was moving. And then, of course, once you have the target, you can exploit it further.

HARRIS: All right, Next question, I've got to talk about the pictures that we were able to get, pictures of the actual boarding of this ship by the Spanish troops that went on board. Give us a description here of what we're seeing and what happened when the Spaniards went onboard to take control of this ship.

MCCANN: Underway movement of maritime counterterrorism, or what we call visit board search and seizure, an exercise to get on ships, very, very dangerous undertaking. The picture is of an inflatable aircraft. That came second to these guys right here, which is a fast- rope insert. You've got combat loaded troops with level-four armor, capable of keeping rifle rounds from penetrating, and/or combat-loaded ammunition, coming off an unstable hover of an aircraft to a listing, rolling deck of a ship, very, very tenuous, very, very difficult kinds of things.

Look at the space between the rotors just alone and the mast work on the aircraft. Once you hit the ground, you try to spread as quickly as you can, in order to take control, get to the helm and get to the engine compartments. If you've got control of those two key features of the craft, now you've got control of the ship, and you can start the clearing process.

The internals of those ships, Leon, are comprised of all choke points, killing zones, fatal funnels, very, very difficult to do, especially with poor lighting.

HARRIS: Do you know about a firefight on board? I would imagine that if I'm carrying some illicit cargo and I'm doing so with a ship whose documentation has been doctored and whose identification markings have been covered up, that if anybody is going to board me, if I have contraband on board, I'm going to put up a fight.

MCCANN: Well, that's of course, what they go into it thinking. You always have got that discern a target, discriminate potentially between noncombat ant and combatant, and then having to engage in a dark environment where your mobility is limited. This is no child's play. I mean, this is a serious game. When these guys hit the ground, they don't know what they're going into, and they have to be at the top level of training, which these men are.

HARRIS: Let's take a look at the next picture that we have got here, because this shows what we've been talking about. This is a graphic description of the way these containers with the SCUDs inside of them were hidden by these thousands of bags of cement.

MCCANN: Listen, Leon, you though as well as I do that commercial shipping runs on rapidity, the rapidity that you can embark and debark materials. Cement bags like that are always palatized (ph), so that forklift on the dockside offload can be done quickly. And why would you want to cover up a mobile element that you could literally drive off the ship? So to say that this was not an effort at concealing the cargo, and that they hand-loaded those bags of concrete, when certainly palatization (ph) is well known to the North Korean is ludicrous.

HARRIS: Obviously, this is a very sloppy job, that if they have palatized (ph) the concrete and just stacked the palates, they might have gotten away with it, you think.

MCCANN: Well, certainly. If the manifest correctly showed what they had, they would have palatized (ph) concrete, palatized (ph) cement. In fact, even if they had listed on the manifest that they had SCUDs, those would be separately oriented to the exit ramp, and it's done quickly. I mean, obviously, this is meant to conceal what the true cargo was and the paperwork reflects that.

HARRIS: Interesting. Do you think that maybe there's some concealment as well as what may be in the warheads on those SCUDs?

MCCANN: Well, you just hit the nail on the head. During the Gulf War we know that SCUD-A system was tried -- they tried to modify it, the Iraqis tried to modify it, and others have tried to modify it in the past, so it would have a payload that could be biological, chemical or nuclear. These, they haven't released whether they're SCUD-Bs. But we're coming from a country that clearly now we know has an NBC capability.

So if you look at that fact, and then look at Yemen, and geographically where it's located, understanding the range of this missile system is 300 kilometers, that means that the only countries that are nearby enough to shoot at would be Oman, Eritrea, Djibouti, Saudi Arabia, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Who do they have a problem with enough that they would need 15 missile systems? That's over- saturation.

At the end of the war, Saddam Hussein was said to have order only 14 in a country that big. So there's some clearly interesting questions that are going to have to be ones answered.

HARRIS: So what, you think that perhaps the Yemenis were even planning on distributing them themselves say perhaps to Iraq, or that perhaps only part of this load was supposed to go to Yemen, and then the rest of it was supposed to go to Iraq?

MCCANN: I'm not even going to suggest that there was a second delivery point, other than to say that I think -- in other words, where that destination point was. But it seems unlikely that an impoverished nation of their size would willingly buy 15 missile systems, when they aren't in jeopardy from any of the surrounding countries, for their own use. And that's going to be a question that I think is going to be at the heart of this matter.

HARRIS: Very interesting, very interesting. Kelly McCann, thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired December 11, 2002 - 10:25   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Back to our top story this morning, the apprehension and the boarding of a North Korean vessel, which had on board some 15 scud missiles. And now, the questions are, where were these missiles headed, and what does all of this mean?
John King is standing by. There was some discussion about all of this there. Let's check and see what John has heard. Morning, John.

What's the word?

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Leon.

This is turning into a potential diplomatic headache for the Bush administration. Yemen now says those missiles were coming to Yemen as part of a legitimate purchase for their Yemeni army. Yemen saying it wants those SCUD missiles delivered. The White House in urgent consultations. Among the Bush team in consultations with the government of Yemen as well. On the table in those discussions we're told by senior officials is the possibility that the United States might have to let the missiles go on to its final destination.

Those missiles were seized, the ship tracked for two weeks, the missiles seized with the cooperation of Spain as well as U.S. Naval assets, seized because the United States says it did not know their final destination. The destination was suspected to be Yemen, but U.S. Officials say they were seized as part of and consistent with the Bush administration doctrine that it has the right to seize weapons of mass destruction or the means of delivering them to keep weapons out of the hands of rogue regimes or terrorist groups.

Now that Yemen, though, Leon, says that it wants those missiles back, the urgent discussions are going, because there is nothing in international law that prohibits such a purchase.

Bush administration officials say they might have to, in the end, allow that shipment to go through. Those consultations continuing with the government that has been a close ally of the United States of late in the war on terrorism.

So a diplomatic issue, a very sensitive one for the Bush administration. We look for further developments throughout the day as the consultations go on.

Some indications that the government of Yemen initially denied this weapons shipment was for Yemen. Now that the weapons have been seized, says it was. So we'll see where this one goes in the hours ahead -- Leon.

HEMMER: How about any implications here, John, or repercussions to come with North Korea and the U.S. on this?

KING: Well, the United States government has urged all of its allies around the world -- the same issue has come up in the relationship with Pakistan. The United States obviously calls North Korea a rogue regime, calls it the world's arms bazaar, says it's selling not only weapons of mass destruction, but the capability to deliver them, like these missiles and missile technology all around the world. The United States has urged all governments around the world not to do business with the government of North Korea, not to provide financial help through these sale to the government of North Korea. So that would be an issue with any government, and it has been an issue with Yemen in the past, as well as Pakistan.

The Bush administration saying it does not want countries it considers to be allies to be doing business with North Korea. There have been sanctions against North Korean companies for selling missile technology in the past in both the Clinton and the Bush administrations.

No secret here, the White House would like to stop the North Korean government from selling this technology and from making money from the sale of this technology. That's one of the reasons this ship was tracked from day one to begin with.

HARRIS: Very rarely is there a black-and-white issue in international diplomacy, and this is further proof of that.

John King at the White House. Thanks, John. We'll see you soon.

Now let's get a closer look at the missiles and their discovery from a security perspective. Joining us now is Kelly McCann. He is CNN security analysts, and he's in our Washington bureau.

Kelly, glad to have you back with us this morning.

Let's start off with the prospect of Yemen actually getting these missiles, now that -- even though they've been confiscated at this particular point. What do you make of that?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I mean, as they took control of the ship, Leon, it became apparent that the registry of the ship, the manifest, nothing matches up. The way it was loaded, was obviously loaded to conceal the fact they were actually moving SCUDs.

So I don't know, it's going to be a contentious issue, and it goes to many nations that could be involved.

HARRIS: You know what, without revealing too much here that may be too sensitive, what I'd like to know is how is it that this ship was picked out as a needle in a haystack literally, from a satellite, this was tracked all the way from North Korea, down through Singapore, and then almost into Yemen. How was it that this ship was picked to begin with for surveillance? MCCANN: Well, a couple of things. From an embarkation standpoint, there's over half a million tons involved of stowage. In other words, the missile platform and the missile itself, combined weight of like 49,000 tons. So I mean, you're moving an awful lot of material.

Secondly, the increased emphasis on all-source fusion intelligence, including image intelligence, signals intelligence, communications intelligence and human intelligence, could give us a very significant single indicator that something was moving. And then, of course, once you have the target, you can exploit it further.

HARRIS: All right, Next question, I've got to talk about the pictures that we were able to get, pictures of the actual boarding of this ship by the Spanish troops that went on board. Give us a description here of what we're seeing and what happened when the Spaniards went onboard to take control of this ship.

MCCANN: Underway movement of maritime counterterrorism, or what we call visit board search and seizure, an exercise to get on ships, very, very dangerous undertaking. The picture is of an inflatable aircraft. That came second to these guys right here, which is a fast- rope insert. You've got combat loaded troops with level-four armor, capable of keeping rifle rounds from penetrating, and/or combat-loaded ammunition, coming off an unstable hover of an aircraft to a listing, rolling deck of a ship, very, very tenuous, very, very difficult kinds of things.

Look at the space between the rotors just alone and the mast work on the aircraft. Once you hit the ground, you try to spread as quickly as you can, in order to take control, get to the helm and get to the engine compartments. If you've got control of those two key features of the craft, now you've got control of the ship, and you can start the clearing process.

The internals of those ships, Leon, are comprised of all choke points, killing zones, fatal funnels, very, very difficult to do, especially with poor lighting.

HARRIS: Do you know about a firefight on board? I would imagine that if I'm carrying some illicit cargo and I'm doing so with a ship whose documentation has been doctored and whose identification markings have been covered up, that if anybody is going to board me, if I have contraband on board, I'm going to put up a fight.

MCCANN: Well, that's of course, what they go into it thinking. You always have got that discern a target, discriminate potentially between noncombat ant and combatant, and then having to engage in a dark environment where your mobility is limited. This is no child's play. I mean, this is a serious game. When these guys hit the ground, they don't know what they're going into, and they have to be at the top level of training, which these men are.

HARRIS: Let's take a look at the next picture that we have got here, because this shows what we've been talking about. This is a graphic description of the way these containers with the SCUDs inside of them were hidden by these thousands of bags of cement.

MCCANN: Listen, Leon, you though as well as I do that commercial shipping runs on rapidity, the rapidity that you can embark and debark materials. Cement bags like that are always palatized (ph), so that forklift on the dockside offload can be done quickly. And why would you want to cover up a mobile element that you could literally drive off the ship? So to say that this was not an effort at concealing the cargo, and that they hand-loaded those bags of concrete, when certainly palatization (ph) is well known to the North Korean is ludicrous.

HARRIS: Obviously, this is a very sloppy job, that if they have palatized (ph) the concrete and just stacked the palates, they might have gotten away with it, you think.

MCCANN: Well, certainly. If the manifest correctly showed what they had, they would have palatized (ph) concrete, palatized (ph) cement. In fact, even if they had listed on the manifest that they had SCUDs, those would be separately oriented to the exit ramp, and it's done quickly. I mean, obviously, this is meant to conceal what the true cargo was and the paperwork reflects that.

HARRIS: Interesting. Do you think that maybe there's some concealment as well as what may be in the warheads on those SCUDs?

MCCANN: Well, you just hit the nail on the head. During the Gulf War we know that SCUD-A system was tried -- they tried to modify it, the Iraqis tried to modify it, and others have tried to modify it in the past, so it would have a payload that could be biological, chemical or nuclear. These, they haven't released whether they're SCUD-Bs. But we're coming from a country that clearly now we know has an NBC capability.

So if you look at that fact, and then look at Yemen, and geographically where it's located, understanding the range of this missile system is 300 kilometers, that means that the only countries that are nearby enough to shoot at would be Oman, Eritrea, Djibouti, Saudi Arabia, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Who do they have a problem with enough that they would need 15 missile systems? That's over- saturation.

At the end of the war, Saddam Hussein was said to have order only 14 in a country that big. So there's some clearly interesting questions that are going to have to be ones answered.

HARRIS: So what, you think that perhaps the Yemenis were even planning on distributing them themselves say perhaps to Iraq, or that perhaps only part of this load was supposed to go to Yemen, and then the rest of it was supposed to go to Iraq?

MCCANN: I'm not even going to suggest that there was a second delivery point, other than to say that I think -- in other words, where that destination point was. But it seems unlikely that an impoverished nation of their size would willingly buy 15 missile systems, when they aren't in jeopardy from any of the surrounding countries, for their own use. And that's going to be a question that I think is going to be at the heart of this matter.

HARRIS: Very interesting, very interesting. Kelly McCann, thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com