Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Interview with Barton Gellman

Aired December 12, 2002 - 07:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Barton Gellman broke the story in "The Washington Post." You can read it today, in fact. He now joins us live from the nation's capital with more on this.
Sir, good morning to you -- thanks for taking time out.

Help clarify for us and for our viewers why the White House would be somewhat cautious right now on this.

BARTON GELLMAN, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, two things. Intelligence is seldom definitive, and the story says that. They have a very sensitive and credible source for this allegation or for this report, but they don't have corroboration. So, they're right to say it's not definitive.

On the other hand, of the hundreds of fragmentary threat reports in the CIA's daily threat matrix, this is being treated with the seriousness of, someone told me, the top 1 percent.

They also have some potential political and diplomatic motives here. They're not prepared to offer this allegation publicly, because they're not prepared to prove it publicly. And they prefer to make their case against Iraq with their best evidence.

HEMMER: Yes, go back to that point you made, about 100 tips come in, 99 are thrown in the wastebasket essentially. That was the point that was made in the article. Why was this one kept? Why the red flag here?

GELLMAN: Principally because of its source, and because its severity if it's true. The source, which has not been described to me, is described as highly sensitive, among the most sensitive sorts of sources the United States has, and that the way the information was picked up is regarded as credible. And there is an aggressive effort to pursue it on many fronts. They're very concerned that if this agent was transferred, that they find out who has it, where it was transported, where it is destined, what the intended target for the attack may be.

HEMMER: Why is VX gas so lethal?

GELLMAN: Because it's the most modern nerve agent. It's of a class of nerve agents that within a few minutes will normally cause respiratory failure and convulsions, and unlike other nerve agents, it is extremely lethal in very, very small quantities, so that one courier could carry enough of it to kill a lot of people. HEMMER: You heard the reporting from Nic Robertson. Where is the motivation, where is the connection, and where does the relationship begin to allow al Qaeda to cooperate with a secular government such as Iraq and Saddam Hussein?

GELLMAN: Well, No. 1, there is no evidence that this transaction was approved or known by Saddam Hussein. There is a presumption that it would be very hard to take any of Iraq's secret cache of weapons out of Iraq without the government's knowledge. If the government did cooperate, it's also speculation, but the CIA reported it publicly not so long ago that the likeliest reason that Saddam would do so is if he believed he was in imminent danger of being unseated.

HEMMER: In the short time we have left here, the report says it possibly came from Baghdad, went through Turkey to some sort of group in Lebanon. Is that about accurate?

GELLMAN: Except for the last part. The group that made the transaction is called Asbat al-Ansar. It is based in Lebanon, but has more recently established an enclave in Iraq. There's no reason to believe that the agent has gone to Lebanon or will do so. In fact, I wouldn't see a good reason for it to.

HEMMER: Thanks -- "Washington Post" reporter Barton Gellman with that story this morning, front page, you can see it now. Thank you, Barton. We'll see you again.

GELLMAN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.







Aired December 12, 2002 - 07:08   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Barton Gellman broke the story in "The Washington Post." You can read it today, in fact. He now joins us live from the nation's capital with more on this.
Sir, good morning to you -- thanks for taking time out.

Help clarify for us and for our viewers why the White House would be somewhat cautious right now on this.

BARTON GELLMAN, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, two things. Intelligence is seldom definitive, and the story says that. They have a very sensitive and credible source for this allegation or for this report, but they don't have corroboration. So, they're right to say it's not definitive.

On the other hand, of the hundreds of fragmentary threat reports in the CIA's daily threat matrix, this is being treated with the seriousness of, someone told me, the top 1 percent.

They also have some potential political and diplomatic motives here. They're not prepared to offer this allegation publicly, because they're not prepared to prove it publicly. And they prefer to make their case against Iraq with their best evidence.

HEMMER: Yes, go back to that point you made, about 100 tips come in, 99 are thrown in the wastebasket essentially. That was the point that was made in the article. Why was this one kept? Why the red flag here?

GELLMAN: Principally because of its source, and because its severity if it's true. The source, which has not been described to me, is described as highly sensitive, among the most sensitive sorts of sources the United States has, and that the way the information was picked up is regarded as credible. And there is an aggressive effort to pursue it on many fronts. They're very concerned that if this agent was transferred, that they find out who has it, where it was transported, where it is destined, what the intended target for the attack may be.

HEMMER: Why is VX gas so lethal?

GELLMAN: Because it's the most modern nerve agent. It's of a class of nerve agents that within a few minutes will normally cause respiratory failure and convulsions, and unlike other nerve agents, it is extremely lethal in very, very small quantities, so that one courier could carry enough of it to kill a lot of people. HEMMER: You heard the reporting from Nic Robertson. Where is the motivation, where is the connection, and where does the relationship begin to allow al Qaeda to cooperate with a secular government such as Iraq and Saddam Hussein?

GELLMAN: Well, No. 1, there is no evidence that this transaction was approved or known by Saddam Hussein. There is a presumption that it would be very hard to take any of Iraq's secret cache of weapons out of Iraq without the government's knowledge. If the government did cooperate, it's also speculation, but the CIA reported it publicly not so long ago that the likeliest reason that Saddam would do so is if he believed he was in imminent danger of being unseated.

HEMMER: In the short time we have left here, the report says it possibly came from Baghdad, went through Turkey to some sort of group in Lebanon. Is that about accurate?

GELLMAN: Except for the last part. The group that made the transaction is called Asbat al-Ansar. It is based in Lebanon, but has more recently established an enclave in Iraq. There's no reason to believe that the agent has gone to Lebanon or will do so. In fact, I wouldn't see a good reason for it to.

HEMMER: Thanks -- "Washington Post" reporter Barton Gellman with that story this morning, front page, you can see it now. Thank you, Barton. We'll see you again.

GELLMAN: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.