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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Senator Trent Lott Issues Apology; Cardinal Bernard Law Steps Down

Aired December 13, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: The man in the hot heat in Washington says he's sorry, but he's not a racist and he's not stepping down.

ANNOUNCER: The heat is on for two men of power. One resigns. The other says he's sorry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: My choice of words were totally unacceptable and insensitive, and I apologize for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Trent Lott's first on-camera apology for remarks that sparked a firestorm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Recent comments by Senator Lott do not reflect the spirit of our country.

SEN. NANCY PELOSI (D), CALIFORNIA: And he can apologize all he wants.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Inappropriate and was really a salute to bigotry.

AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That is racist. That's racist.

JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: He, in fact, should have another post, not leadership of the U.S. Senate.

LOTT: I'm not about to resign for an accusation that I'm something I'm not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Will Lott's words be enough to put out the flames?

The embattled cardinal, Bernard Law, resigns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER FULCHINO, ABUSE VICTIM: Start to heal myself and all these people over here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: mixed feelings from those touched by the church abuse scandal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, ATTORNEY FOR ALLEGED VICTIM: Just because Bernard Cardinal Law resigned doesn't mean everything's OK now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Sparks fly at the gas pump. We'll meet the man who saved his life. And are you in danger every time you fill up?

She catapulted from obscurity to "American Idol" status: the story of Kelly Clarkson raising new questions about reality contestants and their pasts.

And who will be our "Person of the Day"?

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight: The most powerful man in the U.S. Senate, Republican, Mississippi's Trent Lott went on camera for the first time since triggering a political firestorm last week to make three points. As clearly as he could, he said he was sorry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: I've asked, and I'm asking, for forbearance and forgiveness as I continue to learn from my own mistakes, and as I continue to grow and get older. But as you get older, you hopefully grow in your views and your acceptance of everybody, both as a person and certainly as a leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: But he also rejected claims that he's a racist and that he should relinquish his role as the Senate leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: I take full responsibility for my remarks. I can't say it was prepared remarks. As a matter of fact, I was winging it. I was too much into the moment. But I only hope that people will find it in their heart to forgive me for that grievous mistake on that occasion. Not only have I seen the destruction by these immoral policies of the past, I have tried to and will continue to do everything in my power to ensure that we never go back to that type of society again.

I'm not about to resign for an accusation for something I'm not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: So, how did things get to this point? Thursday, December 5, it started with remarks by Lott at the South Carolina Senator Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party. But, in a way, it started in 1948, when Thurmond was a strong advocate of segregation of blacks and ran for president on that platform, a campaign Lott referred to in his remarks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: I want to say this about my state. When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Monday, December 9: As reports of the remarks circulated and a similar comment from 1980 was revealed, critics of Lott said he could have meant only one thing: that the country would have benefited from further segregation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORE: To say that a segregationist should have become president and that that would have avoided a lot of the problems that we have now, that is racist. That's racist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Lott released a statement apologizing for his remarks, but it didn't go far enough to appease even fellow leaders of his own party.

Thursday, December 12, came this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Recent comments by Senator Lott do not reflect the spirit of our country.

(APPLAUSE)

He has apologized, and rightly so. Every day our nation was segregated was a day that America was unfaithful to our founding ideals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: All that led to tonight's appearance by Senator Lott. Tonight, White House news secretary Ari Fleischer told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux -- quote -- "Senator Lott was candid and forthright. He apologized again, and rightly so. I reiterate, the president does not think he needs to resign."

And joining us now from Washington on Capitol Hill, Jonathan Karl; and also in Washington, "TIME" magazine's Karen Tumulty.

Thank you so much for being with us.

Jonathan, what do you think? Did Lott save himself tonight?

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the question will be answered when we hear from his colleagues, from his Republican colleagues.

And what is interesting, Connie, is, you have had an incredible silence. Usually, when you have a situation where a key figure in your party is under fire, you would see his allies rushing to the television cameras to come out and to defend him. That has not happened at all. Calls have been placed to all the key Republicans in the United States Senate.

And, to a person, they have refused to come out to discuss this on camera, to answer questions about whether or not they think Trent Lott should remain their leader. That said, there has been no Republican in the U.S. Senate that has called on him to step down. And several of them have put out statements, paper statements, saying that they believe that he has apologized, that this was a good statement, that he has put this behind us.

But we will not know the answer truly until he comes -- until we hear directly from his Republican colleagues. And that's not happening yet.

CHUNG: Well, Jonathan, what do you think about what Ari Fleischer told our Suzanne Malveaux, that, in fact, the president was reiterating that he doesn't think that Lott should step down? But in fact, we've looked back to see what the president said. And we haven't really found that the president said he should not step down.

So, what do you think's going on at the White House there?

KARL: Well, the president has never said directly that Trent Lott should not step down. And the president has never said directly, from himself, that he accepts Trent Lott's apology.

Those statements have come through the White House press secretary. The statements from the president himself were quite strong, a very strong rebuke of Senator Lott. He said, yes, Senator Lott apologized, as he should. But there wasn't that next step: Did he accept it? So, many on Capitol Hill have been reading that as questioning whether or not the president truly wants Trent Lott to remain the Republican leader here on Capitol Hill.

That statement tonight from Ari Fleischer was clearly an effort to kind of answer that question and those concerns coming from Republicans in the Senate. We'll see if it truly does, though, if it's not directly from the president.

CHUNG: Well, Jonathan, if Trent Lott is forced to resign, forced to step down, who might be taking his place?

KARL: Well, there are a number of possibilities on that front.

One, of course, is Don Nickles. He is a senior Republican from Oklahoma who has been a rival of Trent Lott's in the past and has been somebody who has, at least privately to his colleagues, expressed interest in the job in the past.

Another possibility that you hear talked about a lot up here is Bill Frist. He is a senator from Tennessee. And he is somebody who has got a lot of support among his colleagues here. He led the Republican campaign effort for the midterm elections. So, he's given a lot of credit by his Republican colleagues of winning back the Senate for the Republicans.

Now, it's important to point out that, while those two names are mentioned, that neither one of them have come out to say that they are interested in the job or they think Trent Lott should go. As a matter of fact, Don Nickles has said absolutely nothing about this.

CHUNG: Now, wouldn't President Bush prefer Frist? And, if that is true, why didn't he -- you know, why didn't he sort of orchestrate this behind the scenes?

KARL: Well, you certainly hear speculation that the president would like Bill Frist. The president is very close to Bill Frist. As a matter of fact, Senator Frist was one of the people that he looked at as a possible vice presidential candidate back when he was choosing his running mate in 2000. So, there are close ties there. He likes the man.

But, really, there's been no indication coming out of the White House that the president wants Senator Lott to step down. As a matter of fact, you had that statement from Ari Fleischer saying he wants him to remain. That would be an extraordinary step for the president, to come in and try to force out the Republican leader, Trent Lott, especially when it's very clear from that press conference that Trent Lott himself has no inclination towards resigning.

CHUNG: All right.

Let's go over to Karen Tumulty, who's with "TIME" magazine.

Karen, how do you think the Democrats are reacting now? The reality is, don't you think they would rather have him stay as Senate majority leader, because then they can use him as a lightning rod?

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME": That's absolutely true.

And, certainly, the reports that we were hearing today were that the that the Democratic leadership in fact was urging its members to sort of hold their fire at the moment. They've been surprisingly silent over the last few hours. And there's a real question right now where they proceed from here. Do they in fact go for a resolution, for instance, of censure?

CHUNG: And what do you think those chances are?

TUMULTY: I think the chances are pretty good that they will do that after the Congress returns in January.

CHUNG: But would it be successful?

TUMULTY: That is very much going to depend on several things. One is how this press conference tonight is received.

And the second thing, quite frankly, is whether there are any more revelations, is there is any more information that is going to come out about Senator Lott and his past over the next few weeks.

CHUNG: And, actually, you contributed to that, because you revealed that, when Senator Lott was a fraternity guy at Ole Miss, he was a member of Sigma Nu. And what he did was support the idea of continuing to allow blacks in the fraternity. Why did you reveal this 20 years later?

TUMULTY: Well, this was a story that Senator Lott in fact had told me in the mid-'80s. And, again, this is not just his own chapter of Sigma Nu. The effort that he led was a fight to prevent the fraternity nationally from integrating, which means even its chapters in places like Maine from integrating.

And, at the time, it wasn't newsworthy. It was something that a senator from Mississippi who most people had never heard of had told me. But, as this story got into the news, as it continued, as it became clear that it wasn't going away, it became just as clear to me as a reporter that I had sort of a piece to the puzzle here.

CHUNG: As you've been reporting and talking to your sources, do you get the sense that people do care and are worried about the fact that critics see a pattern of behavior; it's not so much the incident with Strom Thurmond, but it's the pattern of behavior?

TUMULTY: That's exactly the situation now.

Until last weekend, it was a single verbal gaffe. When "The Washington Post" reported earlier this year that Senator Lott had said something nearly identical 20 years ago and, in addition, the report that we had, that turned a one-time mistake into a pattern.

CHUNG: Karen Tumulty, thank you so much.

And, Jonathan Karl, our thanks to you as well.

Joining us now from Starkville, Mississippi, we have Mississippi State University political science Professor Martin Wiseman. And, in Washington, we have syndicated columnist Jonah Goldberg, contributing editor at "The National Review." Thank you both for being with us.

Jonah, you have heard Senator Lott's apology tonight. You've heard a statement, through Ari Fleischer, of President Bush saying that he sees no reason why Lott should step down. Do you think this is over?

JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE NATIONAL REVIEW": I think it's a lull in the storm. It's not entirely clear that it's over.

I think Karen was absolutely right that, if another shoe drops in this story, things can change. If "The Washington Post," "The New York Times," or somebody else comes out with another large piece of this puzzle, Lott could get himself into a lot more trouble, and that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

But, as of right now, until a senator, a major Republican senator, particularly, or a Democratic one, for that matter, calls for him to step down as majority leader, I think it's very hard to see how this story moves much further. I do think Lott is damaged goods and could well be walking wounded and just fall over from some other thing a month and a half from now.

CHUNG: Oh, so you don't think he'll remain Republican majority leader for maybe a full year?

GOLDBERG: Yes. I think that this has really diminished him.

And the fear is -- one of the interesting things to keep in mind is that most of the conservatives in the conservative movement, conservative journalists, conservative activists, they came out very early. "National Review Online," which I spend most of my time at, we came out denouncing Trent Lott from the get-go when these remarks came out.

The Senate is a boys club, and so it takes a little bit longer for those guys. But the reality is, is that the guy is diminished. Among conservatives, he never had much -- we never had much trust in him to begin with. "National Review" called for his resignation in 1998. And what could happen is, is that Trent Lott could start getting rolled.

At least this is the fear among conservatives, that he starts getting rolled by the Democrats because they basically have leverage on him now. And if he's perceived as damaged goods who can't do his job effectively, it may be under the rubric of something else, but I really do think that it's going to be hard for him to do his job. Every time the issue of race comes up, from anything from welfare reform to affirmative action to a host of other issues, people -- the Democrats are going to trot out Trent Lott's name as a Medusa's head. And it's going to be terrible.

CHUNG: All right, I need to go over to Professor Wiseman.

Professor Wiseman, you've been studying Trent Lott for years. Do you believe this is a man who has shown a pattern of behavior of racism, or do you think that this last incident was somewhat of an aberration, despite what critics are pointing to as a number of incidents?

MARTIN WISEMAN, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, I believe that Trent Lott is a consummate conservative.

He believes his conservative values should apply to everyone, white, black, regardless of race. And I think, in this case, he was doing the warm Southern thing of simply trying to connect the state of Mississippi to an experience it had colleague with an old colleague on his 100th birthday. The thing is, he crossed paths with a virulent, racist time in the state's history and got tangled up in it.

Mississippi, like a lot of Southern states, knows its racist. It's had Ross Barnett. It's seen George Wallace. It's seen Lester Maddox. And, certainly, Trent Lott cannot be described as a racist in that context.

CHUNG: All right, Professor Wiseman, Jonah Goldberg, thank you both for being with us.

And still ahead: You saw the astonishing video of that gas station fire. We've got one of the guys who ran to help.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: The archbishop of Boston resigns in the midst of a sex scandal that's rocked the Catholic Church to its foundation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Today is a very important day and a hopeful day for many families in Boston.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We'll hear from those hit the hardest.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: After almost a year of controversy and scandal, a scandal that spread to Catholic Churches around the country, Boston Cardinal Bernard Law has resigned.

His resignation was accepted by the pope today at their meeting in the Vatican. Law released a statement saying -- quote -- "It is my fervent prayer that this action may help the archdiocese of Boston to experience the healing, reconciliation, and unity which are so desperately needed to all those who have suffered from my shortcomings and mistakes. I both apologize and, from them, beg forgiveness."

Now, Law's resignation, with 450 claims pending against the diocese for alleged priests' abuse and months of mounting accusations of institutional cover-ups, did not come as a surprise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: Cardinal Law made the right decision in resigning today. And this is the beginning of what I expect will be a long process of healing for the victims, for the families, for the Catholic Church, for the Catholic community generally. But today is a new day. And it's a hopeful day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Joining me now from Rome is "National Catholic Reporter"'s Vatican correspondent, John Allen. And with me here: father Thomas Reese. He's the editor of "America," a national weekly for Catholics.

Thank you both for being with us.

John, I'm going to go to you first. Was this a tough pill for the pope to swallow?

JOHN ALLEN, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": I think extraordinarily so, at one level because John Paul's own approach to the bishop's office would weigh heavily against the idea of the bishop resigning.

The pope believes, in accord with traditional Catholic understanding of the bishop's office, that the bishop is a father to his people. And just as a father does not desert his family in times of crisis, neither does a bishop desert his flock. Moreover, the pope himself in recent months has faced demands for his own resignation on the grounds that he's too weak and too frail to carry on and has consistently refused them.

Recently, he said that Jesus did not come down off the cross. And you add to that that Bernard Law has, for some time, been one of the pope's closest confidants and advisers on the American Catholic scene. I think this had to be extremely difficult.

CHUNG: Do you think that this is going to cause a chain reaction?

ALLEN: Well, I think, if you mean by that, will this bring increased pressure on other bishops potentially to resign themselves, I think that has long been the Vatican's sort of fear, No. 1.

And the language that's used in the Congregation for Bishops, which is the office that tracks these things, is the fear of a domino effect, that is, that, when Law goes down, he might cause other bishops to go down with him, beginning with some of his former assistant bishops, who have gone on to become diocesan bishops themselves, who were involved in some of these disastrous personnel decisions to move priests who were involved in sex abuse from parish to parish.

There are, of course, other American bishops who are facing similar charges. And there are bishops overseas: Cormac Murphy O'Connor in England; Desmond Connell in Ireland. I spent a good deal of time today doing English and Irish radio and TV. And I know that some of the victims' groups there are citing Law's resignation as a precedent for bringing new pressure on their own bishops to consider stepping down.

So, I think there will be increased pressure on some of these men. Whether it's enough to cause other resignations remains to be seen.

CHUNG: Father Reese, now that Law is out of the picture, do you think that the Vatican is hoping that it will have neatly put away this stain in Boston?

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA": Well, I think the Vatican recognizes that there's still a lot of problems in Boston that have to be dealt with.

There's the suits. There's the criminal accusations. All of this still has to be processed. I think the hope is that a new man now can come in who doesn't have the baggage that Cardinal Law had and that that person can make some decisions, can reach out to the victims, can do some things to move this off the center and deal with it quickly.

CHUNG: Now, "The Boston Herald" reported in May -- this was several weeks ago -- I mean several months ago -- had reported that there was one particular priest who was considered to be an abusive priest and that he was called a sociopath and a danger to society.

In this report, it suggested that the person who is going to be taking over temporarily in Boston -- that's Richard Lennon -- was told about this person's behavior, this particular priest's behavior. This man was defrocked and sent out to society. Now, if indeed -- and we cannot confirm precise details at this time -- but if indeed Father Lennon had some complicity as an aide to Cardinal Law in those days, would this cause a real damaging act to Boston and the archdiocese there?

REESE: Well, I don't know. I haven't read the documents and I don't know the history.

But, clearly, it would be problematic if it was discovered that he had been involved in this kind of decision-making. I think it would hurt his ability to deal with this problem. My hope is that that's not the case and that he might have even given good advice to Cardinal Law that wasn't followed. I don't know. And I think we'll have to look into it and find out.

CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, Father Reese.

And, John Allen, we thank you for joining us from Rome as well.

Now, joining us from Boston to give us an idea of how today's news is being received, we have William Gately, co-regional coordinator of the Support Network of those Abused by Priests; and Arthur Austin, who says he was abused by the Reverend Paul Shanley, whose case helped trigger the Boston church crisis.

Thank you both for being with us.

And we'll start with Mr. Austin.

Mr. Austin, what is your reaction to the fact that Cardinal Law is now out of the picture?

ARTHUR AUSTIN, ALLEGED ABUSE VICTIM: My reaction to this fact is that no justice has been done.

Cardinal Law resigned not because justice had been done, but because everything else he had tried to do to hold onto power had failed. Everything his lawyers had tried to do, everything the Vatican had tried to do had failed. We did not shut up and we did not go away. And that's what they wanted.

CHUNG: And what does this mean to you personally, sir?

AUSTIN: What it means to me personally is that the voices of all those who came before me, victims, and my brothers and sisters in the movement now have raised a mighty voice in the land. And we have brought this man down.

CHUNG: Mr. Gately, you told us last night that you would have preferred if Cardinal Law stay on to keep the heat on in Boston.

WILLIAM GATELY, CO-REGIONAL COORDINATOR, SNAP: Yes.

CHUNG: Do you still feel that way today?

GATELY: Well, there is a sense of relief that I believe people will see as hopeful for the future.

But I think that that is only a temporary reprieve. And I'm afraid that many of the people in Boston who are enthused about his resignation will, over time, lose the interest in the issues, believing that, hopefully, this is behind us. And it will be a long time before these issues are resolved.

We talk about healing and a new bishop and so forth. But that's -- a new bishop is not going to bring healing for the survivors and for the victims. What is going to bring healing is a new sense of trust. And that will take perhaps a generation, I believe, before people once again will be able to trust the Catholic Church.

CHUNG: Mr. Gately, the attorney general of Massachusetts is apparently investigating this case. And if indeed Cardinal Law is called before a grand jury, how significant do you think that is?

GATELY: I think it's very significant.

I think it's very sad that he put himself in that position. But I think that the attorney general needs to be commended for his efforts. And I also think that we in Boston, or in Massachusetts, need to know exactly, within the law, what he can tell us about what's going on. He can't talk about a grand jury investigation, but we need to be kept abreast of a certain amount of progress that's being made.

And every effort needs to be made by the attorney general to diligently pursue this to see if crimes that were committed can be prosecuted. And, regardless of whether he is here or not, at least in authority, he needs to face the same procedures, criminally, if possible, that the rest of us have to face. It's not about being -- it's not about not getting along with the cardinal. It's not about being vindictive. It's about, if he committed a crime, he needs to be prosecuted.

CHUNG: All right, William Gately, Arthur Austin, we thank you both for being with us.

Another resignation today is a setback for the investigation into the attacks of September 11. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger stepped down as the commission chair in the face of criticism over possible conflicts of interests between the investigation and his ties to several organizations and public figures. The commission's vice chairman, former Senator George Mitchell, stepped down on Wednesday.

And America's efforts to prevent future attacks from perceived enemies tops tonight's look at "The World in: 60."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): North Korea wants an apology from the U.S. for intercepting its ship carrying Scud missiles to Yemen earlier this week. The ship was eventually allowed to sail on after high-level talks with Yemen.

Iran is denying U.S. claims that it's building large nuclear facilities in secret. A Foreign Ministry spokesman says Iran's only nuclear activity is of a peaceful nature and that -- quote -- "certain circles" in the U.S. are trying to create international tension.

The European Union stretches its reach, announcing an historic expansion, with 10 new member nations. One official says the move will bring to end the divisions of Europe.

Another Caribbean cruise ship pulls into Miami with sick passengers, this time 288 passengers and crew members on the P&O ship Oceana, complaining of being sick.

For all the coffee in China? Starbucks plans to boost the number of its stores in the communist state by 10 percent next year. There are already about 30 shops each in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Next: Think it's a fluke? Not so fast. Could this happen to you? How to protect yourself from fire at the pump.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: While the debate continues over whether the U.S. should go into Baghdad, one American has already decided for himself. And he's at the top of tonight's "Snapshot."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Actor and director Sean Penn has left the glitz of Hollywood for a real-life feel of Baghdad. Penn arrived in Iraq on a three-day visit organized by the Institute for Public Accuracy.

Popular rock band REM is back on the road, launching its first world tour after a four-year hiatus. So far, only the European dates are set, but, of course, a new album is already in the works.

This is the life. A couple of polar bears rescued from a Mexican circus are enjoying the comforts of their new home in a North Carolina zoo. A few of their companions taken to the Point Defiance Zoo in Tacoma, Washington, were treated to a dental checkup.

What lengths will people pedal to break a world record? Two students in the Netherlands did it by riding a 28-meter long bicycle. The previous record was held by an Italian team with a 25-meter bike.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And thus are international rivalries born.

And still to come: new accusations about "American Idol"'s Kelly Clarkson. Is it merely idle gossip?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: If you've seen the pictures already, you know how frightening it is. This fire was triggered by a simple spark of static electricity. Retired Air Force officer Robert Clues (ph) was filling up at a Lackland Air Force Base gas station last month, and Technical Sergeant Ed Jones ran to his aid.

Ed Jones joins us now from San Antonio to tell us about the scary accident that played out right in front of him.

Thanks so much for being with us. That video...

SGT. ED JONES, AIR FORCE : It's a pleasure to be here, Connie.

CHUNG: OK.

That video is just amazing to look at. Tell us what you saw and what you did.

JONES: Well, I had just got done filling up the gas tank in my car, and I had pulled into the parking lot to buy a bottle of Gatorade for the ride home, when I saw a man running across the parking lot on fire. When I saw this, I immediately ran over as fast as I could. There was another gentleman, I believe a safety officer from a nearby base. He was trying his best to help out. He had taken off his T- shirt. I had taken off my top. And I had went to get on top of him to smother the flames. And I got burned in the process. It was really scary.

After doing that, I jumped back, after the burn. I went back down to try and smother the flames again. And, at some point, other people began to show up, including a medical officer from another base around here. I noticed that his pants were reigniting and it appeared that his pants were saturated in gasoline.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

JONES: So, I looked around for fire extinguishers. They had them, but they were close to the fire. So, I ran to the water reservoir at a gas pump nearby and I dumped the water on him to put it out. The first bucket didn't do the job, but the second bucket did.

It was really a scary situation.

CHUNG: Now, you even took him to the hospital, didn't you?

JONES: One that I won't forget soon.

CHUNG: Yes. You even took him to the hospital, didn't you?

JONES: Yes.

The civilian workers inside the store were fantastic. One of the mechanics came out and tried to fight the fire. Another one brought a pickup truck out. And me and the mechanic loaded him into the bed of the pickup truck. And myself and the medical officer covered up his legs so he couldn't see the wounds.

CHUNG: Quickly, Ed, one other question.

JONES: Sure.

CHUNG: There was a huge fuel tanker in the back. I can kind of see it there. Were you afraid that that might just blow up?

JONES: A lot of people got really scared when we noticed that, because I didn't see it at the time.

That was when we had decided to move him. You can kind of see on the tape where we decided we needed to move him out of there. And that's when someone got the pickup truck. And we took him immediately to the emergency room on base.

CHUNG: All right. And, just very quickly, in five seconds, have you seen Mr. Clues (ph)?

JONES: Oh, yes. He's a great guy. I met him today. The man has nerves of steel during the incident. And he has a great sense of humor. And he's going to recover fully, which is just the best news a man can hear.

CHUNG: All right. Sergeant Jones, I'm sure he wanted to give you a big kiss. Thank you so much for being with us.

JONES: It was my pleasure.

CHUNG: And congratulations on all your good work.

We've all been to a gas pump a million times, but would never have thought that something like this could happen. And while fires such as the one Sergeant Jones witnessed are extraordinarily rare, they do happen.

CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen looked at previous incidents and preventive measures. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They try to forget it now, the day Esperanza (ph) Sierra and her father were at the gas station. He was pumping gas when, suddenly, his pickup truck burst into flames. Esperanza (ph) was caught inside.

IGNACIO SIERRA, GAS PUMP FIRE VICTIM: She started screaming. I knew that when I opened the door, the fumes would start getting inside because there was flame all over.

COHEN: Ignacio Sierra miraculously got Esperanza (ph) out unharmed. His truck was ruined, the gas station burned down.

(on camera): The fire started because Ignacio Sierra did something many of us do. While the gas was pumping, he got back into his car to get money. The friction of his body against the seat created static electricity. Then, he got back out of his car, and when he touched the nozzle, the static electricity from his body created a spark which ignited the fumes coming out of the gas tank.

(voice-over): It was one of the 129 such fires documented by the Petroleum Equipment Institute since the early 1990s, and these fires make Stephen Fowler furious, because he says they are preventable.

STEPHEN FOWLER, STATIC ELECTRICITY EXPERT: We have to accept the fact that refueling is dangerous. We can't hide that from the public anymore.

COHEN: His solution? Put up stickers that say "Touch here." The sticker is over metal, and when you touch it, you get rid of your static electricity here, rather than at the nozzle.

But Fowler says no gas stations plan to put them up, except for one chain in South Carolina, which has designed this one. The American Petroleum Institute worries the stickers may detract from other warnings about, for example, smoking while pumping gas, which they say is far more dangerous.

DENISE MCCOURT, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE: And that whole debate is going to go on about what is the right language, and how do we best warn our customers how they can safely refuel.

COHEN: Some stations, like this one, put up a list of warnings which include static fires, but Fowler says that is not nearly enough, the advice gets lost. And he says there is something else gas stations could do to protect consumers that they are not doing. Look at this surveillance tape from a gas station in Oklahoma.

A 32-year-old mother of four lost her life in this fire. It's not known exactly how the fire started, but if she had left the nozzle in the car, engineers say she probably would have lived.

FOWLER: In Oklahoma, the lady reached down to get the nozzle. It was too hot, so she grabbed it back here to pull it out, and when she did, it did a snake routine and sprayed gasoline in all this direction, and she tried to get away, but it was too late.

COHEN: Labels like this one warn, "In case of fire, do not remove nozzle."

But again, Fowler says, only the South Carolina chain plans on using it.

ERIC BAUMHOLSER, SPINX: We've seen the films of the woman that actually died, and we don't want that to happen.

COHEN: But the American Petroleum Institute says reading this label could be dangerous.

MCCOURT: We probably don't want to have people have their face that close to that nozzle.

COHEN: What everyone agrees is that customers need to learn that static gas fires at gas pumps are preventable, that something as simple as touching metal, any metal, before touching a gas nozzle could save your life. And if a fire does break out, don't pull the nozzle out of the tank.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: How real are those people in the reality TV shows? Questions about contestants and their pasts -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Just the very idea that reality TV might consist of more TV than it does reality is shocking, right? Just shocking. The latest claim is that the winner on "American Idol", Kelly Clarkson, wasn't exactly the amateur novice the show suggested she was. Clarkson would not comment to us.

Fox aired the show and released this statement: "Kelly Clarkson is not a liar, a cheat. She did not breach any rules of the competition. She won the 'American Idol' competition fairly and was rightfully chosen by the American public as their American idol."

As CNN's Brian Cabell reports, the reality behind supposedly real TV is frequently the real $64,000 question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kelly Clarkson, the sweet and talented winner of the TV hit "American Idol," is discovering the darker side of celebrity: tabloid allegations that she'd signed three professional contracts with songwriters before appearing on the amateur show. Producers say she was in fact an amateur and did nothing wrong.

"American Idol" faced earlier criticism that voting by viewers was skewed by an automated dial system that registered thousands of votes, while other viewers couldn't call in a single time. Producers say the outcome was not affected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SURVIVOR")

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since we lost the challenge today, we go back to the council tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: "Survivor," one of the first and most successful reality shows, faced a somewhat different charge: that producers manipulated the vote to save one of the contestants. Producers deny the charge. A lawsuit is now pending. "Survivor" also faced criticism for faking some video.

BRIAN LOWRY, REPORTER, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": The producer, Mark Burnett, admitted that they had reshot some scenes using extras. A swimming sequence, which was a race, had been reshot from a different angle using extras.

CABELL: The results of the race were not affected.

Controversy dogged the infamous, "Who Wants to Marry a Multimillionaire?" It turns out the man was, at most, a millionaire, and he had once had a restraining order placed on him by a former girlfriend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "WHO WANTS TO MARRY A MULTIMILLIONAIRE?")

RICK ROCKWELL: Will you marry me?

DARVA CONGER: I will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: Further, the bride and groom never consummated their very brief marriage.

"Temptation Island," a steamy show featuring unmarried couples, ran into a different kind of problem. One of the couples had had a child. They were kicked off the show. They then sued the show. The suit was settled out of court.

LOWRY: I think, at this point, there have been enough questions about the integrity of these shows that, if it was going to be a problem, it would have been a problem. People who watch these shows, for whatever reason, seem to be able to suspend disbelief for the time they're watching.

CABELL: Perhaps the most infamous incident on reality shows occurred on "Big Brother," when one of the contestants, who insists he was joking, threatened another.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BIG BROTHER")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you get mad if I killed you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: He actually wielded a knife, the host said, but they didn't show that video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BIG BROTHER")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin, please go to the diary room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, boy, we've got problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: The contestant, in fact, had a record for assaults. He was kicked off the show.

Even with all its problems, reality TV attracts viewers, sells commercials, and makes stars, like Kelly Clarkson. That's a recipe for success.

Brian Cabell, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Attorney Jay Cooper represents the songwriters who worked with Kelly Clarkson. And he joins us tonight from, where else, Los Angeles.

Thank you so much for being with us.

JAY COOPER, ATTORNEY: Thank you.

CHUNG: Tell us, the tabloids were saying that Kelly Clarkson signed three professional contracts and one of those contracts was with your clients. Is it true?

COOPER: Well, I can say that she did sign a contract with my clients, yes.

CHUNG: And what was the...

COOPER: It was a contract -- yes?

CHUNG: What was it for?

COOPER: The contract was to do some demos. This is a normal procedure.

All beginning artists, all people who are looking to get into the business sign a contract, usually to do some demonstration records, because they have to show those to record companies in order to get a deal. My clients are not a recording company. They're merely songwriters, well-known songwriters, but merely songwriters.

CHUNG: So, what was the hope that would happen after she recorded this music?

COOPER: The hope was that a recording contract would come out of the results of the product that she produced.

CHUNG: Well, then, do you think she did anything wrong by signing a contract with these songwriters that you are representing and then signing this information with the program "American Idol" that said that she was an amateur?

COOPER: I think she was an amateur. I don't think she did anything wrong.

They are not a record company. And so, what she was doing is what every artist is trying to do to get into the business. They have to do demonstration records to show what their voice sounds like on a recording. And that's all it was. It was for demonstration purposes. It wasn't anything more than that.

CHUNG: Have you or any of your clients spoken to Kelly Clarkson?

COOPER: I certainly haven't. And I don't believe that my clients have, either.

I mean, nobody's unhappy with Kelly. In fact, my clients wish her well. They don't have any animosity. They don't have any problem at all with her. They think she's a fabulous talent.

CHUNG: All right. Well, thank you so much, Jay Cooper. Thank you for clearing that up for us.

COOPER: OK. Thank you. Thank you very much.

CHUNG: Still ahead: He's 13 years old. Why did someone try to kill him? And why is he our "Person of the Day"?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Today's "Person of the Day" very nearly didn't get to see today. For a while, it looked as if 13-year-old Iran Brown wouldn't live to 14. He was shot in the abdomen outside his school on October 7 during the Washington-area sniper spree. Iran was in critical condition. And doctors said his injuries were life-threatening. He lost his spleen, parts of his pancreas and stomach, and suffered injuries to his intestines and a lung.

Two months later, Iran was back at the hospital yesterday. And just listen to him today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IRAN BROWN, SNIPER VICTIM: I feel great and am looking forward to picking up my life where I left off. That includes a lot of basketball and hanging out with my friends. I feel good. I'm not in any pain right now. I feel normal. It's just that I can't lift heavy things or can't do some of the things I couldn't do before. But I'm just taking it day by day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Sound advice from the youngest survivor and the youngest victim of the D.C. sniper, and our youngest "Person of the Day."

Monday: photos of their kids, some nude shots. The cops are called in. And now they are suing Wal-Mart.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": a woman who says she can talk to dead people.

Thanks so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and have a great weekend. See you Monday.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Steps Down>


Aired December 13, 2002 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: The man in the hot heat in Washington says he's sorry, but he's not a racist and he's not stepping down.

ANNOUNCER: The heat is on for two men of power. One resigns. The other says he's sorry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: My choice of words were totally unacceptable and insensitive, and I apologize for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Trent Lott's first on-camera apology for remarks that sparked a firestorm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Recent comments by Senator Lott do not reflect the spirit of our country.

SEN. NANCY PELOSI (D), CALIFORNIA: And he can apologize all he wants.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Inappropriate and was really a salute to bigotry.

AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That is racist. That's racist.

JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: He, in fact, should have another post, not leadership of the U.S. Senate.

LOTT: I'm not about to resign for an accusation that I'm something I'm not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Will Lott's words be enough to put out the flames?

The embattled cardinal, Bernard Law, resigns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER FULCHINO, ABUSE VICTIM: Start to heal myself and all these people over here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: mixed feelings from those touched by the church abuse scandal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, ATTORNEY FOR ALLEGED VICTIM: Just because Bernard Cardinal Law resigned doesn't mean everything's OK now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Sparks fly at the gas pump. We'll meet the man who saved his life. And are you in danger every time you fill up?

She catapulted from obscurity to "American Idol" status: the story of Kelly Clarkson raising new questions about reality contestants and their pasts.

And who will be our "Person of the Day"?

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight: The most powerful man in the U.S. Senate, Republican, Mississippi's Trent Lott went on camera for the first time since triggering a political firestorm last week to make three points. As clearly as he could, he said he was sorry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: I've asked, and I'm asking, for forbearance and forgiveness as I continue to learn from my own mistakes, and as I continue to grow and get older. But as you get older, you hopefully grow in your views and your acceptance of everybody, both as a person and certainly as a leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: But he also rejected claims that he's a racist and that he should relinquish his role as the Senate leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: I take full responsibility for my remarks. I can't say it was prepared remarks. As a matter of fact, I was winging it. I was too much into the moment. But I only hope that people will find it in their heart to forgive me for that grievous mistake on that occasion. Not only have I seen the destruction by these immoral policies of the past, I have tried to and will continue to do everything in my power to ensure that we never go back to that type of society again.

I'm not about to resign for an accusation for something I'm not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: So, how did things get to this point? Thursday, December 5, it started with remarks by Lott at the South Carolina Senator Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party. But, in a way, it started in 1948, when Thurmond was a strong advocate of segregation of blacks and ran for president on that platform, a campaign Lott referred to in his remarks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOTT: I want to say this about my state. When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Monday, December 9: As reports of the remarks circulated and a similar comment from 1980 was revealed, critics of Lott said he could have meant only one thing: that the country would have benefited from further segregation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORE: To say that a segregationist should have become president and that that would have avoided a lot of the problems that we have now, that is racist. That's racist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Lott released a statement apologizing for his remarks, but it didn't go far enough to appease even fellow leaders of his own party.

Thursday, December 12, came this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Recent comments by Senator Lott do not reflect the spirit of our country.

(APPLAUSE)

He has apologized, and rightly so. Every day our nation was segregated was a day that America was unfaithful to our founding ideals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: All that led to tonight's appearance by Senator Lott. Tonight, White House news secretary Ari Fleischer told CNN's Suzanne Malveaux -- quote -- "Senator Lott was candid and forthright. He apologized again, and rightly so. I reiterate, the president does not think he needs to resign."

And joining us now from Washington on Capitol Hill, Jonathan Karl; and also in Washington, "TIME" magazine's Karen Tumulty.

Thank you so much for being with us.

Jonathan, what do you think? Did Lott save himself tonight?

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the question will be answered when we hear from his colleagues, from his Republican colleagues.

And what is interesting, Connie, is, you have had an incredible silence. Usually, when you have a situation where a key figure in your party is under fire, you would see his allies rushing to the television cameras to come out and to defend him. That has not happened at all. Calls have been placed to all the key Republicans in the United States Senate.

And, to a person, they have refused to come out to discuss this on camera, to answer questions about whether or not they think Trent Lott should remain their leader. That said, there has been no Republican in the U.S. Senate that has called on him to step down. And several of them have put out statements, paper statements, saying that they believe that he has apologized, that this was a good statement, that he has put this behind us.

But we will not know the answer truly until he comes -- until we hear directly from his Republican colleagues. And that's not happening yet.

CHUNG: Well, Jonathan, what do you think about what Ari Fleischer told our Suzanne Malveaux, that, in fact, the president was reiterating that he doesn't think that Lott should step down? But in fact, we've looked back to see what the president said. And we haven't really found that the president said he should not step down.

So, what do you think's going on at the White House there?

KARL: Well, the president has never said directly that Trent Lott should not step down. And the president has never said directly, from himself, that he accepts Trent Lott's apology.

Those statements have come through the White House press secretary. The statements from the president himself were quite strong, a very strong rebuke of Senator Lott. He said, yes, Senator Lott apologized, as he should. But there wasn't that next step: Did he accept it? So, many on Capitol Hill have been reading that as questioning whether or not the president truly wants Trent Lott to remain the Republican leader here on Capitol Hill.

That statement tonight from Ari Fleischer was clearly an effort to kind of answer that question and those concerns coming from Republicans in the Senate. We'll see if it truly does, though, if it's not directly from the president.

CHUNG: Well, Jonathan, if Trent Lott is forced to resign, forced to step down, who might be taking his place?

KARL: Well, there are a number of possibilities on that front.

One, of course, is Don Nickles. He is a senior Republican from Oklahoma who has been a rival of Trent Lott's in the past and has been somebody who has, at least privately to his colleagues, expressed interest in the job in the past.

Another possibility that you hear talked about a lot up here is Bill Frist. He is a senator from Tennessee. And he is somebody who has got a lot of support among his colleagues here. He led the Republican campaign effort for the midterm elections. So, he's given a lot of credit by his Republican colleagues of winning back the Senate for the Republicans.

Now, it's important to point out that, while those two names are mentioned, that neither one of them have come out to say that they are interested in the job or they think Trent Lott should go. As a matter of fact, Don Nickles has said absolutely nothing about this.

CHUNG: Now, wouldn't President Bush prefer Frist? And, if that is true, why didn't he -- you know, why didn't he sort of orchestrate this behind the scenes?

KARL: Well, you certainly hear speculation that the president would like Bill Frist. The president is very close to Bill Frist. As a matter of fact, Senator Frist was one of the people that he looked at as a possible vice presidential candidate back when he was choosing his running mate in 2000. So, there are close ties there. He likes the man.

But, really, there's been no indication coming out of the White House that the president wants Senator Lott to step down. As a matter of fact, you had that statement from Ari Fleischer saying he wants him to remain. That would be an extraordinary step for the president, to come in and try to force out the Republican leader, Trent Lott, especially when it's very clear from that press conference that Trent Lott himself has no inclination towards resigning.

CHUNG: All right.

Let's go over to Karen Tumulty, who's with "TIME" magazine.

Karen, how do you think the Democrats are reacting now? The reality is, don't you think they would rather have him stay as Senate majority leader, because then they can use him as a lightning rod?

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME": That's absolutely true.

And, certainly, the reports that we were hearing today were that the that the Democratic leadership in fact was urging its members to sort of hold their fire at the moment. They've been surprisingly silent over the last few hours. And there's a real question right now where they proceed from here. Do they in fact go for a resolution, for instance, of censure?

CHUNG: And what do you think those chances are?

TUMULTY: I think the chances are pretty good that they will do that after the Congress returns in January.

CHUNG: But would it be successful?

TUMULTY: That is very much going to depend on several things. One is how this press conference tonight is received.

And the second thing, quite frankly, is whether there are any more revelations, is there is any more information that is going to come out about Senator Lott and his past over the next few weeks.

CHUNG: And, actually, you contributed to that, because you revealed that, when Senator Lott was a fraternity guy at Ole Miss, he was a member of Sigma Nu. And what he did was support the idea of continuing to allow blacks in the fraternity. Why did you reveal this 20 years later?

TUMULTY: Well, this was a story that Senator Lott in fact had told me in the mid-'80s. And, again, this is not just his own chapter of Sigma Nu. The effort that he led was a fight to prevent the fraternity nationally from integrating, which means even its chapters in places like Maine from integrating.

And, at the time, it wasn't newsworthy. It was something that a senator from Mississippi who most people had never heard of had told me. But, as this story got into the news, as it continued, as it became clear that it wasn't going away, it became just as clear to me as a reporter that I had sort of a piece to the puzzle here.

CHUNG: As you've been reporting and talking to your sources, do you get the sense that people do care and are worried about the fact that critics see a pattern of behavior; it's not so much the incident with Strom Thurmond, but it's the pattern of behavior?

TUMULTY: That's exactly the situation now.

Until last weekend, it was a single verbal gaffe. When "The Washington Post" reported earlier this year that Senator Lott had said something nearly identical 20 years ago and, in addition, the report that we had, that turned a one-time mistake into a pattern.

CHUNG: Karen Tumulty, thank you so much.

And, Jonathan Karl, our thanks to you as well.

Joining us now from Starkville, Mississippi, we have Mississippi State University political science Professor Martin Wiseman. And, in Washington, we have syndicated columnist Jonah Goldberg, contributing editor at "The National Review." Thank you both for being with us.

Jonah, you have heard Senator Lott's apology tonight. You've heard a statement, through Ari Fleischer, of President Bush saying that he sees no reason why Lott should step down. Do you think this is over?

JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE NATIONAL REVIEW": I think it's a lull in the storm. It's not entirely clear that it's over.

I think Karen was absolutely right that, if another shoe drops in this story, things can change. If "The Washington Post," "The New York Times," or somebody else comes out with another large piece of this puzzle, Lott could get himself into a lot more trouble, and that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

But, as of right now, until a senator, a major Republican senator, particularly, or a Democratic one, for that matter, calls for him to step down as majority leader, I think it's very hard to see how this story moves much further. I do think Lott is damaged goods and could well be walking wounded and just fall over from some other thing a month and a half from now.

CHUNG: Oh, so you don't think he'll remain Republican majority leader for maybe a full year?

GOLDBERG: Yes. I think that this has really diminished him.

And the fear is -- one of the interesting things to keep in mind is that most of the conservatives in the conservative movement, conservative journalists, conservative activists, they came out very early. "National Review Online," which I spend most of my time at, we came out denouncing Trent Lott from the get-go when these remarks came out.

The Senate is a boys club, and so it takes a little bit longer for those guys. But the reality is, is that the guy is diminished. Among conservatives, he never had much -- we never had much trust in him to begin with. "National Review" called for his resignation in 1998. And what could happen is, is that Trent Lott could start getting rolled.

At least this is the fear among conservatives, that he starts getting rolled by the Democrats because they basically have leverage on him now. And if he's perceived as damaged goods who can't do his job effectively, it may be under the rubric of something else, but I really do think that it's going to be hard for him to do his job. Every time the issue of race comes up, from anything from welfare reform to affirmative action to a host of other issues, people -- the Democrats are going to trot out Trent Lott's name as a Medusa's head. And it's going to be terrible.

CHUNG: All right, I need to go over to Professor Wiseman.

Professor Wiseman, you've been studying Trent Lott for years. Do you believe this is a man who has shown a pattern of behavior of racism, or do you think that this last incident was somewhat of an aberration, despite what critics are pointing to as a number of incidents?

MARTIN WISEMAN, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, I believe that Trent Lott is a consummate conservative.

He believes his conservative values should apply to everyone, white, black, regardless of race. And I think, in this case, he was doing the warm Southern thing of simply trying to connect the state of Mississippi to an experience it had colleague with an old colleague on his 100th birthday. The thing is, he crossed paths with a virulent, racist time in the state's history and got tangled up in it.

Mississippi, like a lot of Southern states, knows its racist. It's had Ross Barnett. It's seen George Wallace. It's seen Lester Maddox. And, certainly, Trent Lott cannot be described as a racist in that context.

CHUNG: All right, Professor Wiseman, Jonah Goldberg, thank you both for being with us.

And still ahead: You saw the astonishing video of that gas station fire. We've got one of the guys who ran to help.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: The archbishop of Boston resigns in the midst of a sex scandal that's rocked the Catholic Church to its foundation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Today is a very important day and a hopeful day for many families in Boston.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We'll hear from those hit the hardest.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: After almost a year of controversy and scandal, a scandal that spread to Catholic Churches around the country, Boston Cardinal Bernard Law has resigned.

His resignation was accepted by the pope today at their meeting in the Vatican. Law released a statement saying -- quote -- "It is my fervent prayer that this action may help the archdiocese of Boston to experience the healing, reconciliation, and unity which are so desperately needed to all those who have suffered from my shortcomings and mistakes. I both apologize and, from them, beg forgiveness."

Now, Law's resignation, with 450 claims pending against the diocese for alleged priests' abuse and months of mounting accusations of institutional cover-ups, did not come as a surprise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: Cardinal Law made the right decision in resigning today. And this is the beginning of what I expect will be a long process of healing for the victims, for the families, for the Catholic Church, for the Catholic community generally. But today is a new day. And it's a hopeful day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Joining me now from Rome is "National Catholic Reporter"'s Vatican correspondent, John Allen. And with me here: father Thomas Reese. He's the editor of "America," a national weekly for Catholics.

Thank you both for being with us.

John, I'm going to go to you first. Was this a tough pill for the pope to swallow?

JOHN ALLEN, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": I think extraordinarily so, at one level because John Paul's own approach to the bishop's office would weigh heavily against the idea of the bishop resigning.

The pope believes, in accord with traditional Catholic understanding of the bishop's office, that the bishop is a father to his people. And just as a father does not desert his family in times of crisis, neither does a bishop desert his flock. Moreover, the pope himself in recent months has faced demands for his own resignation on the grounds that he's too weak and too frail to carry on and has consistently refused them.

Recently, he said that Jesus did not come down off the cross. And you add to that that Bernard Law has, for some time, been one of the pope's closest confidants and advisers on the American Catholic scene. I think this had to be extremely difficult.

CHUNG: Do you think that this is going to cause a chain reaction?

ALLEN: Well, I think, if you mean by that, will this bring increased pressure on other bishops potentially to resign themselves, I think that has long been the Vatican's sort of fear, No. 1.

And the language that's used in the Congregation for Bishops, which is the office that tracks these things, is the fear of a domino effect, that is, that, when Law goes down, he might cause other bishops to go down with him, beginning with some of his former assistant bishops, who have gone on to become diocesan bishops themselves, who were involved in some of these disastrous personnel decisions to move priests who were involved in sex abuse from parish to parish.

There are, of course, other American bishops who are facing similar charges. And there are bishops overseas: Cormac Murphy O'Connor in England; Desmond Connell in Ireland. I spent a good deal of time today doing English and Irish radio and TV. And I know that some of the victims' groups there are citing Law's resignation as a precedent for bringing new pressure on their own bishops to consider stepping down.

So, I think there will be increased pressure on some of these men. Whether it's enough to cause other resignations remains to be seen.

CHUNG: Father Reese, now that Law is out of the picture, do you think that the Vatican is hoping that it will have neatly put away this stain in Boston?

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA": Well, I think the Vatican recognizes that there's still a lot of problems in Boston that have to be dealt with.

There's the suits. There's the criminal accusations. All of this still has to be processed. I think the hope is that a new man now can come in who doesn't have the baggage that Cardinal Law had and that that person can make some decisions, can reach out to the victims, can do some things to move this off the center and deal with it quickly.

CHUNG: Now, "The Boston Herald" reported in May -- this was several weeks ago -- I mean several months ago -- had reported that there was one particular priest who was considered to be an abusive priest and that he was called a sociopath and a danger to society.

In this report, it suggested that the person who is going to be taking over temporarily in Boston -- that's Richard Lennon -- was told about this person's behavior, this particular priest's behavior. This man was defrocked and sent out to society. Now, if indeed -- and we cannot confirm precise details at this time -- but if indeed Father Lennon had some complicity as an aide to Cardinal Law in those days, would this cause a real damaging act to Boston and the archdiocese there?

REESE: Well, I don't know. I haven't read the documents and I don't know the history.

But, clearly, it would be problematic if it was discovered that he had been involved in this kind of decision-making. I think it would hurt his ability to deal with this problem. My hope is that that's not the case and that he might have even given good advice to Cardinal Law that wasn't followed. I don't know. And I think we'll have to look into it and find out.

CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, Father Reese.

And, John Allen, we thank you for joining us from Rome as well.

Now, joining us from Boston to give us an idea of how today's news is being received, we have William Gately, co-regional coordinator of the Support Network of those Abused by Priests; and Arthur Austin, who says he was abused by the Reverend Paul Shanley, whose case helped trigger the Boston church crisis.

Thank you both for being with us.

And we'll start with Mr. Austin.

Mr. Austin, what is your reaction to the fact that Cardinal Law is now out of the picture?

ARTHUR AUSTIN, ALLEGED ABUSE VICTIM: My reaction to this fact is that no justice has been done.

Cardinal Law resigned not because justice had been done, but because everything else he had tried to do to hold onto power had failed. Everything his lawyers had tried to do, everything the Vatican had tried to do had failed. We did not shut up and we did not go away. And that's what they wanted.

CHUNG: And what does this mean to you personally, sir?

AUSTIN: What it means to me personally is that the voices of all those who came before me, victims, and my brothers and sisters in the movement now have raised a mighty voice in the land. And we have brought this man down.

CHUNG: Mr. Gately, you told us last night that you would have preferred if Cardinal Law stay on to keep the heat on in Boston.

WILLIAM GATELY, CO-REGIONAL COORDINATOR, SNAP: Yes.

CHUNG: Do you still feel that way today?

GATELY: Well, there is a sense of relief that I believe people will see as hopeful for the future.

But I think that that is only a temporary reprieve. And I'm afraid that many of the people in Boston who are enthused about his resignation will, over time, lose the interest in the issues, believing that, hopefully, this is behind us. And it will be a long time before these issues are resolved.

We talk about healing and a new bishop and so forth. But that's -- a new bishop is not going to bring healing for the survivors and for the victims. What is going to bring healing is a new sense of trust. And that will take perhaps a generation, I believe, before people once again will be able to trust the Catholic Church.

CHUNG: Mr. Gately, the attorney general of Massachusetts is apparently investigating this case. And if indeed Cardinal Law is called before a grand jury, how significant do you think that is?

GATELY: I think it's very significant.

I think it's very sad that he put himself in that position. But I think that the attorney general needs to be commended for his efforts. And I also think that we in Boston, or in Massachusetts, need to know exactly, within the law, what he can tell us about what's going on. He can't talk about a grand jury investigation, but we need to be kept abreast of a certain amount of progress that's being made.

And every effort needs to be made by the attorney general to diligently pursue this to see if crimes that were committed can be prosecuted. And, regardless of whether he is here or not, at least in authority, he needs to face the same procedures, criminally, if possible, that the rest of us have to face. It's not about being -- it's not about not getting along with the cardinal. It's not about being vindictive. It's about, if he committed a crime, he needs to be prosecuted.

CHUNG: All right, William Gately, Arthur Austin, we thank you both for being with us.

Another resignation today is a setback for the investigation into the attacks of September 11. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger stepped down as the commission chair in the face of criticism over possible conflicts of interests between the investigation and his ties to several organizations and public figures. The commission's vice chairman, former Senator George Mitchell, stepped down on Wednesday.

And America's efforts to prevent future attacks from perceived enemies tops tonight's look at "The World in: 60."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): North Korea wants an apology from the U.S. for intercepting its ship carrying Scud missiles to Yemen earlier this week. The ship was eventually allowed to sail on after high-level talks with Yemen.

Iran is denying U.S. claims that it's building large nuclear facilities in secret. A Foreign Ministry spokesman says Iran's only nuclear activity is of a peaceful nature and that -- quote -- "certain circles" in the U.S. are trying to create international tension.

The European Union stretches its reach, announcing an historic expansion, with 10 new member nations. One official says the move will bring to end the divisions of Europe.

Another Caribbean cruise ship pulls into Miami with sick passengers, this time 288 passengers and crew members on the P&O ship Oceana, complaining of being sick.

For all the coffee in China? Starbucks plans to boost the number of its stores in the communist state by 10 percent next year. There are already about 30 shops each in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Next: Think it's a fluke? Not so fast. Could this happen to you? How to protect yourself from fire at the pump.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: While the debate continues over whether the U.S. should go into Baghdad, one American has already decided for himself. And he's at the top of tonight's "Snapshot."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Actor and director Sean Penn has left the glitz of Hollywood for a real-life feel of Baghdad. Penn arrived in Iraq on a three-day visit organized by the Institute for Public Accuracy.

Popular rock band REM is back on the road, launching its first world tour after a four-year hiatus. So far, only the European dates are set, but, of course, a new album is already in the works.

This is the life. A couple of polar bears rescued from a Mexican circus are enjoying the comforts of their new home in a North Carolina zoo. A few of their companions taken to the Point Defiance Zoo in Tacoma, Washington, were treated to a dental checkup.

What lengths will people pedal to break a world record? Two students in the Netherlands did it by riding a 28-meter long bicycle. The previous record was held by an Italian team with a 25-meter bike.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And thus are international rivalries born.

And still to come: new accusations about "American Idol"'s Kelly Clarkson. Is it merely idle gossip?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: If you've seen the pictures already, you know how frightening it is. This fire was triggered by a simple spark of static electricity. Retired Air Force officer Robert Clues (ph) was filling up at a Lackland Air Force Base gas station last month, and Technical Sergeant Ed Jones ran to his aid.

Ed Jones joins us now from San Antonio to tell us about the scary accident that played out right in front of him.

Thanks so much for being with us. That video...

SGT. ED JONES, AIR FORCE : It's a pleasure to be here, Connie.

CHUNG: OK.

That video is just amazing to look at. Tell us what you saw and what you did.

JONES: Well, I had just got done filling up the gas tank in my car, and I had pulled into the parking lot to buy a bottle of Gatorade for the ride home, when I saw a man running across the parking lot on fire. When I saw this, I immediately ran over as fast as I could. There was another gentleman, I believe a safety officer from a nearby base. He was trying his best to help out. He had taken off his T- shirt. I had taken off my top. And I had went to get on top of him to smother the flames. And I got burned in the process. It was really scary.

After doing that, I jumped back, after the burn. I went back down to try and smother the flames again. And, at some point, other people began to show up, including a medical officer from another base around here. I noticed that his pants were reigniting and it appeared that his pants were saturated in gasoline.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

JONES: So, I looked around for fire extinguishers. They had them, but they were close to the fire. So, I ran to the water reservoir at a gas pump nearby and I dumped the water on him to put it out. The first bucket didn't do the job, but the second bucket did.

It was really a scary situation.

CHUNG: Now, you even took him to the hospital, didn't you?

JONES: One that I won't forget soon.

CHUNG: Yes. You even took him to the hospital, didn't you?

JONES: Yes.

The civilian workers inside the store were fantastic. One of the mechanics came out and tried to fight the fire. Another one brought a pickup truck out. And me and the mechanic loaded him into the bed of the pickup truck. And myself and the medical officer covered up his legs so he couldn't see the wounds.

CHUNG: Quickly, Ed, one other question.

JONES: Sure.

CHUNG: There was a huge fuel tanker in the back. I can kind of see it there. Were you afraid that that might just blow up?

JONES: A lot of people got really scared when we noticed that, because I didn't see it at the time.

That was when we had decided to move him. You can kind of see on the tape where we decided we needed to move him out of there. And that's when someone got the pickup truck. And we took him immediately to the emergency room on base.

CHUNG: All right. And, just very quickly, in five seconds, have you seen Mr. Clues (ph)?

JONES: Oh, yes. He's a great guy. I met him today. The man has nerves of steel during the incident. And he has a great sense of humor. And he's going to recover fully, which is just the best news a man can hear.

CHUNG: All right. Sergeant Jones, I'm sure he wanted to give you a big kiss. Thank you so much for being with us.

JONES: It was my pleasure.

CHUNG: And congratulations on all your good work.

We've all been to a gas pump a million times, but would never have thought that something like this could happen. And while fires such as the one Sergeant Jones witnessed are extraordinarily rare, they do happen.

CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen looked at previous incidents and preventive measures. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They try to forget it now, the day Esperanza (ph) Sierra and her father were at the gas station. He was pumping gas when, suddenly, his pickup truck burst into flames. Esperanza (ph) was caught inside.

IGNACIO SIERRA, GAS PUMP FIRE VICTIM: She started screaming. I knew that when I opened the door, the fumes would start getting inside because there was flame all over.

COHEN: Ignacio Sierra miraculously got Esperanza (ph) out unharmed. His truck was ruined, the gas station burned down.

(on camera): The fire started because Ignacio Sierra did something many of us do. While the gas was pumping, he got back into his car to get money. The friction of his body against the seat created static electricity. Then, he got back out of his car, and when he touched the nozzle, the static electricity from his body created a spark which ignited the fumes coming out of the gas tank.

(voice-over): It was one of the 129 such fires documented by the Petroleum Equipment Institute since the early 1990s, and these fires make Stephen Fowler furious, because he says they are preventable.

STEPHEN FOWLER, STATIC ELECTRICITY EXPERT: We have to accept the fact that refueling is dangerous. We can't hide that from the public anymore.

COHEN: His solution? Put up stickers that say "Touch here." The sticker is over metal, and when you touch it, you get rid of your static electricity here, rather than at the nozzle.

But Fowler says no gas stations plan to put them up, except for one chain in South Carolina, which has designed this one. The American Petroleum Institute worries the stickers may detract from other warnings about, for example, smoking while pumping gas, which they say is far more dangerous.

DENISE MCCOURT, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE: And that whole debate is going to go on about what is the right language, and how do we best warn our customers how they can safely refuel.

COHEN: Some stations, like this one, put up a list of warnings which include static fires, but Fowler says that is not nearly enough, the advice gets lost. And he says there is something else gas stations could do to protect consumers that they are not doing. Look at this surveillance tape from a gas station in Oklahoma.

A 32-year-old mother of four lost her life in this fire. It's not known exactly how the fire started, but if she had left the nozzle in the car, engineers say she probably would have lived.

FOWLER: In Oklahoma, the lady reached down to get the nozzle. It was too hot, so she grabbed it back here to pull it out, and when she did, it did a snake routine and sprayed gasoline in all this direction, and she tried to get away, but it was too late.

COHEN: Labels like this one warn, "In case of fire, do not remove nozzle."

But again, Fowler says, only the South Carolina chain plans on using it.

ERIC BAUMHOLSER, SPINX: We've seen the films of the woman that actually died, and we don't want that to happen.

COHEN: But the American Petroleum Institute says reading this label could be dangerous.

MCCOURT: We probably don't want to have people have their face that close to that nozzle.

COHEN: What everyone agrees is that customers need to learn that static gas fires at gas pumps are preventable, that something as simple as touching metal, any metal, before touching a gas nozzle could save your life. And if a fire does break out, don't pull the nozzle out of the tank.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: How real are those people in the reality TV shows? Questions about contestants and their pasts -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Just the very idea that reality TV might consist of more TV than it does reality is shocking, right? Just shocking. The latest claim is that the winner on "American Idol", Kelly Clarkson, wasn't exactly the amateur novice the show suggested she was. Clarkson would not comment to us.

Fox aired the show and released this statement: "Kelly Clarkson is not a liar, a cheat. She did not breach any rules of the competition. She won the 'American Idol' competition fairly and was rightfully chosen by the American public as their American idol."

As CNN's Brian Cabell reports, the reality behind supposedly real TV is frequently the real $64,000 question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kelly Clarkson, the sweet and talented winner of the TV hit "American Idol," is discovering the darker side of celebrity: tabloid allegations that she'd signed three professional contracts with songwriters before appearing on the amateur show. Producers say she was in fact an amateur and did nothing wrong.

"American Idol" faced earlier criticism that voting by viewers was skewed by an automated dial system that registered thousands of votes, while other viewers couldn't call in a single time. Producers say the outcome was not affected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SURVIVOR")

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since we lost the challenge today, we go back to the council tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: "Survivor," one of the first and most successful reality shows, faced a somewhat different charge: that producers manipulated the vote to save one of the contestants. Producers deny the charge. A lawsuit is now pending. "Survivor" also faced criticism for faking some video.

BRIAN LOWRY, REPORTER, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": The producer, Mark Burnett, admitted that they had reshot some scenes using extras. A swimming sequence, which was a race, had been reshot from a different angle using extras.

CABELL: The results of the race were not affected.

Controversy dogged the infamous, "Who Wants to Marry a Multimillionaire?" It turns out the man was, at most, a millionaire, and he had once had a restraining order placed on him by a former girlfriend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "WHO WANTS TO MARRY A MULTIMILLIONAIRE?")

RICK ROCKWELL: Will you marry me?

DARVA CONGER: I will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: Further, the bride and groom never consummated their very brief marriage.

"Temptation Island," a steamy show featuring unmarried couples, ran into a different kind of problem. One of the couples had had a child. They were kicked off the show. They then sued the show. The suit was settled out of court.

LOWRY: I think, at this point, there have been enough questions about the integrity of these shows that, if it was going to be a problem, it would have been a problem. People who watch these shows, for whatever reason, seem to be able to suspend disbelief for the time they're watching.

CABELL: Perhaps the most infamous incident on reality shows occurred on "Big Brother," when one of the contestants, who insists he was joking, threatened another.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BIG BROTHER")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you get mad if I killed you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: He actually wielded a knife, the host said, but they didn't show that video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BIG BROTHER")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin, please go to the diary room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, boy, we've got problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: The contestant, in fact, had a record for assaults. He was kicked off the show.

Even with all its problems, reality TV attracts viewers, sells commercials, and makes stars, like Kelly Clarkson. That's a recipe for success.

Brian Cabell, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Attorney Jay Cooper represents the songwriters who worked with Kelly Clarkson. And he joins us tonight from, where else, Los Angeles.

Thank you so much for being with us.

JAY COOPER, ATTORNEY: Thank you.

CHUNG: Tell us, the tabloids were saying that Kelly Clarkson signed three professional contracts and one of those contracts was with your clients. Is it true?

COOPER: Well, I can say that she did sign a contract with my clients, yes.

CHUNG: And what was the...

COOPER: It was a contract -- yes?

CHUNG: What was it for?

COOPER: The contract was to do some demos. This is a normal procedure.

All beginning artists, all people who are looking to get into the business sign a contract, usually to do some demonstration records, because they have to show those to record companies in order to get a deal. My clients are not a recording company. They're merely songwriters, well-known songwriters, but merely songwriters.

CHUNG: So, what was the hope that would happen after she recorded this music?

COOPER: The hope was that a recording contract would come out of the results of the product that she produced.

CHUNG: Well, then, do you think she did anything wrong by signing a contract with these songwriters that you are representing and then signing this information with the program "American Idol" that said that she was an amateur?

COOPER: I think she was an amateur. I don't think she did anything wrong.

They are not a record company. And so, what she was doing is what every artist is trying to do to get into the business. They have to do demonstration records to show what their voice sounds like on a recording. And that's all it was. It was for demonstration purposes. It wasn't anything more than that.

CHUNG: Have you or any of your clients spoken to Kelly Clarkson?

COOPER: I certainly haven't. And I don't believe that my clients have, either.

I mean, nobody's unhappy with Kelly. In fact, my clients wish her well. They don't have any animosity. They don't have any problem at all with her. They think she's a fabulous talent.

CHUNG: All right. Well, thank you so much, Jay Cooper. Thank you for clearing that up for us.

COOPER: OK. Thank you. Thank you very much.

CHUNG: Still ahead: He's 13 years old. Why did someone try to kill him? And why is he our "Person of the Day"?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Today's "Person of the Day" very nearly didn't get to see today. For a while, it looked as if 13-year-old Iran Brown wouldn't live to 14. He was shot in the abdomen outside his school on October 7 during the Washington-area sniper spree. Iran was in critical condition. And doctors said his injuries were life-threatening. He lost his spleen, parts of his pancreas and stomach, and suffered injuries to his intestines and a lung.

Two months later, Iran was back at the hospital yesterday. And just listen to him today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IRAN BROWN, SNIPER VICTIM: I feel great and am looking forward to picking up my life where I left off. That includes a lot of basketball and hanging out with my friends. I feel good. I'm not in any pain right now. I feel normal. It's just that I can't lift heavy things or can't do some of the things I couldn't do before. But I'm just taking it day by day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Sound advice from the youngest survivor and the youngest victim of the D.C. sniper, and our youngest "Person of the Day."

Monday: photos of their kids, some nude shots. The cops are called in. And now they are suing Wal-Mart.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": a woman who says she can talk to dead people.

Thanks so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and have a great weekend. See you Monday.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





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