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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Tragedy on Ice; Controversy Brewing Over New Boston Archbishop
Aired December 16, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
ANNOUNCER: An icy tragedy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ice, it fell down. And then, all of us, we fell down in the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Six young boys fall through thin ice. Four of them drown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just a terrible tragedy. It really is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: the man who tried to save them.
A final apology.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL BERNARD LAW, FORMER BOSTON ARCHBISHOP: To all those who have suffered, I once again apologize and, from them, I beg forgiveness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Now new questions about the man replacing Cardinal Law. What did Bishop Richard Lennon know about sex abuse in the Catholic Church and what did he do about it?
He's bowing out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was the right thing for me to decide not to be a candidate this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And he's trying to get out of hot water.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Now there is a cloud over that leadership. And I think that Trent Lott should not continue as majority leader because of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Family photos or pornography? This humiliated mom says it was invasion of privacy when a photo lab clerk called the cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMIE DRAGONE, SUING WAL-MART: Nothing that I had on the film was inappropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Sean Penn's latest role in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN PENN, ACTOR: If there is going to be blood on my hands, to live with myself, I don't want that blood to be invisible. I want it to have a human face on both sides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The bad boy actor in Baghdad.
And our "Person of the Day": the one-woman crime buster.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening.
Tonight: emerging details on the story of four young bays who died Saturday fighting for their lives, trapped beneath the ice in the Merrimack River in Massachusetts. As the town of Lawrence faces a Christmas without its lost boys, ranging in age from 7 to 11, there are questions about how exactly the tragedy occurred.
As CNN's Bill Delaney reports, those in mourning are searching for other answers as well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL DELANEY, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): What drew Eusemio Rodriguez to the Merrimac River, he didn't know exactly, he said. Just to beware, his 11-year-old son, William, the youngest of seven drowned Saturday.
"Now," he said, "Christmas will not come for us because we've lost our baby."
A loss resounding through the working class old mill town of Lawrence, Massachusetts, four children in all. William Rodriguez, Victor Baez (ph), 9, McKendy Constant (ph), 8, Christopher Kasado (ph), 7. On a day torrential rain weakened already thin ice, rescuers struggling desperately in frigid eight-foot deep water, 20 feet from shore, did manage to save three other children.
(on camera): Differing accounts of just what happened here. Some who live near the river in published reports say they saw the boys fooling around on the ice. But the boys' families and surviving boys, too, say the oldest child, 11-year-old William Rodriguez, either purposefully or accidentally slid on to the ice, broke through it and then the other boys died trying to save him.
Nine-year-old Frances Spraus recounted trying to get to William Rodriguez.
FRANCES SPRAUS, SURVIVOR: It was me, Ivan and Christopher and Victor, we went after him and then we -- he took off a jacket. And then we did a human chain, but it turned out that the ice was about to give away. The ice fell down and then, all of us, we fall down in the water.
DELANEY: A woman said her 15-year-old daughter last saw the boys.
DONNA HICKS, RESIDENT: One boy said, "Let's go on the river." And the other one said no. He kept running and they all ran after him. But she was last one to see him run up the street. I know I don't think it's going to be the same around here for a while.
DELANEY: In his anguish for his child, Eusemio Rodriguez pleaded for other children, calling for a protective barriers to block off the river, tragedy because of the innocent exuberance of little boys and because it seems of their courage trying to save a friend.
Bill Delaney, CNN, Lawrence, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now are the first man on the scene, neighbor Jacques Fournier, who phoned for help and tried to get the boys out on his own. And also in Lawrence, we have mayor Michael Sullivan.
Thank you both for being with us.
Mr. Mayor, I know that you have spent a good deal of time with the families. How are they doing?
MICHAEL SULLIVAN, MAYOR OF LAWRENCE, MASSACHUSETTS: Well, as expected, not well. How do you take the worst news that you'd ever want to hear in your life as a parent, that your young boy, who was very healthy, went out for a wonderful day to play and is not coming home? So, as expected, it's very sad and we're coping and we're reaching out. People throughout the world have been just calling our office every day on wanting to know how to help. And that helps parents and everyone else involved. So, we have a strong city here and we are going to all get through this together. But it is a very, very, very tough time for the families.
CHUNG: Absolutely.
Mr. Mayor, I know that someone who was there has quoted one of the boys as saying: "I'm Superman. I can get out of the ice." And kids do tend to be invincible at that early age. Do you know what happened?
SULLIVAN: Well, the investigation is still ongoing.
But, you know, the bottom line is, it was seven active, healthy boys that were all playing. And there was an accident that occurred. And a lot of emotion has been wrapped around this. But the heroes are the kids that tried to save each other. And when you hear the stories of what happened on that river at that time, it's just amazing the courage that these boys all have had and have.
And we're just trying to help the parents get through this, especially this week. This is a terrible, terrible, tough week for the city and for the parents that are going to go -- that are involved.
CHUNG: Mr. Fournier, you were the first person on the scene. What did you see?
JACQUES FOURNIER, EYEWITNESS: A young boy asked me to help him. And I went to the river. I saw three boys in the ice, in the water.
And I ran to my house. I had my wife call 911 while I was grabbing a rope from my shed and run to the river. And I tried to throw the rope at them, so they could grab the rope. I tried three times. I didn't succeed to get the rope to them. Then the emergency came, the fire department and a couple of firemen and a couple of policemen.
They slide on the river. And, with the help of my rope, we pulled those two safety officer and the boys on the shore. And I saw the third one drown right in front of me before the emergency people arrived. I saw one go down under the ice.
CHUNG: Oh my heavens.
FOURNIER: And I feel bad about that. That's the part that I feel bad about.
CHUNG: Of course. What was the condition of those two boys when they came out?
FOURNIER: Well, they were very weak. And they weren't say too much. I don't remember them say anything. But they were very weak. They couldn't stand up. And they just lay there. We laid them there on the mud until the other officer came and brought them to the ambulance.
CHUNG: We were told, Mr. Fournier, that you really helped keep the children calm when they were in the water.
FOURNIER: Oh, yes. Yes.
When they were in the ice looking at me about 20 feet away I was telling them that I was going to save them or somebody was going to come to save them. I asked them to be patient with me and the rope. And I told them to get rid of some of the clothes that they could. And I think that's what they did because they were out of clothes when we brought them on the ice.
And it's a kind of feeling to see a kid like that, slide them on the ice and put them on the side of the river in that dirty mud for maybe half a minute or so, until somebody would throw a blanket on them. And another safety officer, another paramedic or whatever picked them up and brought them to the ambulance.
CHUNG: Yes, Mr. Fournier.
FOURNIER: And I was kind of relieved to see those two, yes.
CHUNG: Absolutely.
Mr. Mayor, there have been calls to put some protective barriers around that water area. What do you think will happen in the future?
SULLIVAN: Well, we're going to look at that, of course.
You know, we're going to adjust. We are going to take a look at everything that the city could do better. But, you know, the river is a very large river. And it's a very small city. The river runs through the middle of the city. And, again, it's a two-mile river. But we are going to look at every possible issue that we can -- where we could help to make sure that this wouldn't happen again. And that's what we are going to be doing within the next couple of days.
CHUNG: All right, Mayor Sullivan, thank you so much for being with us. If you talk to the families, please give them our heartfelt best.
Mr. Fournier, also...
(CROSSTALK)
SULLIVAN: They're all watching tonight.
CHUNG: OK.
Mr. Fournier, thank you as well.
Our thoughts are with everyone in Lawrence, tonight. And, as winter arrives this week, a reminder about why playing on ice is so dangerous: Experts say freezing water robs your body of heat 30 to 50 times faster than cold air does. And that's especially true if you flail around or move unnecessarily. The best way to stay safe is to stay off the ice.
And still ahead: Al Gore says he's out. Are Republicans about to send the message to Trent Lott?
We'll find out.
ANNOUNCER: Next: new questions about Cardinal Law's replacement, Bishop Richard Lennon. What was his role in the church sex abuse scandal?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: In his first public appearance since he resigned as Boston's archbishop, Cardinal Bernard Law today issued another apology and again asked for forgiveness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAW: To all those who have suffered from my shortcomings and from my mistakes, I once again apologize and, from them, I beg forgiveness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: The man who now leads the Boston Archdiocese, replacing embattled Cardinal Law, continues to receive wide praise. Bishop Richard Lennon celebrated Sunday mass yesterday for the first time since Law resigned. Lennon drew applause from worshipers, but some criticism from protesters, who want the church to release additional documents.
Some church documents obtained by CNN now seem to be raising new questions about what Bishop Lennon knew about past priest abuse cases and what he was in a position to do about them. According to a letter to Father Lennon in 1995, Lennon is told that an alleged sex offender, a priest, was considered by his therapist to be a -- quote -- "sociopath, a dangerous person and a threat to adolescent males."
As an expert on canon law, Lennon reviewed the alleged abuser's file and worked on his defrocking. Did Lennon or any other member of the church have an obligation to tell the priest's family, the community, or the police that a therapist thought the priest was a sociopath?
Earlier, I spoke with Joseph Abromovitz, who represents two alleged victims, nephews of the alleged abuser. He does not hold Father Lennon legally responsible, but he is upset no one spoke out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHUNG: Do you believe that Father Lennon had a moral or ethical responsibility to either tell the police, the community or the family about this man's behavior?
JOSEPH ABROMOVITZ, ATTORNEY FOR ALLEGED VICTIMS: You know, I don't know. And I'm not trying to duck the issue. I just -- I would prefer to see more documentation in the files of the church or to question Father Lennon on that himself before I formed a judgment, either as an attorney or as a member of society.
Clearly, there were people that were charged with the responsibility of dealing with sexually abusive priests. They did not, apparently, include Father Lennon, although, when we get further into pretrial discovery in these cases, something else may come out that would change my opinion on that. I don't have any evidence that he had any direct supervisory responsibility to deal with priests that were accused of sexual misconduct.
CHUNG: In your investigations, did the church ever notify the police, family members, or the community about the alleged behavior?
ABROMOVITZ: No.
The complaints were initially made by family members to the police, who then interviewed the church. But the church did not initiate any contact with anybody outside of the church itself concerning this particular priest.
CHUNG: Is it your position that the church had an obligation to do so?
ABROMOVITZ: Absolutely.
When he was in a treatment facility and sent him home, they were sending a known sexual predator to a community without telling anybody, including the authorities, so that the authorities can keep an eye out for him and protect his neighbors.
CHUNG: You represent two young men. Why is the mother of these two young men so upset?
ABROMOVITZ: She's upset, obviously, about what happened to her boys. And she's very upset with the church in not telling her, especially once they knew that he was having contact with the boys after the church knew that he was a problem and not telling her, so that she could protect her sons.
CHUNG: Thank you so much, Mr. Abromovitz.
ABROMOVITZ: You're welcome.
CHUNG: We appreciate your being with us.
ABROMOVITZ: You're quite welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE) CHUNG: Another attorney representing alleged victims of this abusive priest is Mitchell Garabedian. And he's with us tonight.
Mr. Garabedian, do you think that Father Lennon had any obligation to tell anyone outside the church that a therapist thought that this particular priest was dangerous and a threat to children?
MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, ATTORNEY FOR ALLEGED VICTIMS: Well, let's break that question down.
As a canonist, which he was, which Father Lennon was, he knew that a pedophile priest had eight accusations against him in 1995. He knew that there were -- that another pedophile priest in 1996 was sent to a residential treatment at Southdown in Canada. Now, as a canonist, did he have an obligation to report that? Did he have an obligation to protect innocent children? That's a good question.
Did he have obligation as a priest, which he was at the time, to report that and to protect innocent children? That's another good question. Did he have an obligation as a human being to report that and protect innocent children? Think about that.
CHUNG: And what is your judgment? You're representing all of these victims.
GARABEDIAN: Of course he did. Of course there's a need to protect innocent children. Of course someone has to act properly, whether they're a canonist, a priest or a human being.
It's time to stop this nonsense within the Archdiocese of Boston. It's time to do something about it.
CHUNG: What do you think Father Lennon should have done? He didn't have supervisory authority over this particular issue. He was simply an expert on canon law.
GARABEDIAN: Well, he could at least report it to the supervisors. And, if he didn't want it to report it to the supervisors, he could have reported it to the police.
He had to do something. A pedophile priest is molesting innocent children and it's continuing. He has to do something about it. He can't just let it sit there and not tell anybody. And now the man is bishop. He's the head of the archdiocese. Why doesn't he at least tell people he knew of those situations back in 1995 and 1996? Something is awry here.
CHUNG: Do you think that it's going to hurt Bishop Lennon's ability to heal the archbishop, the entire area of Boston?
GARABEDIAN: I believe so. I think it's going to taint his ability, coupling that with the fact that he's only temporary and no one knows how long he'll be here.
I think it's going to hurt his ability to have any sort of credibility when it comes to these issues. I mean, my goodness, one document shows that a pedophile priest was placed in Southdown, as I mentioned earlier. I have two clients who were molested after that priest was placed in Southdown in 1996. Something has to be done here.
CHUNG: Now, Father Lennon was also in charge of the defrocking of Father Geoghan, who you represented, Father John Geoghan, who was convicted. Did he have any obligation in terms of Father Geoghan's case?
GARABEDIAN: Well, here I am. I'm sitting here 141 victims later involving -- 141 victims have come forward to me claiming to have been molested by Father John J. Geoghan.
I think the answer to that is apparent, as it is with any pedophile priest. Of course he had an obligation to report that. He should have went to the police if he had a problem going to his supervisors. You have to do whatever is necessary to prevent innocent children from being sexually molested.
CHUNG: But that's what the church did not do at that time. It was the norm not to go to the police. It was the norm not to go to the community or the family of the priest.
GARABEDIAN: Then they all have a problem. They all acted incorrectly and they all should learn from this.
That doesn't make it right. That doesn't make it right at all. How can Bishop Lennon hope to justify his not doing anything and protecting innocent children from pedophile priests by saying, well, no one else in the organization was doing it, so I shouldn't have done anything? That doesn't make any sense.
CHUNG: Mitchell Garabedian, thank you so much for being with us.
GARABEDIAN: Thank you.
CHUNG: Bishop Lennon was not available for an interview, but a spokesperson for the Boston Archdiocese, Christopher Coyne, said he does not know if Lennon encouraged notifying family, community or police. He said Bishop Lennon is -- quote -- "a man of integrity. If he was involved," the spokesman continued, "he would have tried to do the right thing" -- unquote.
And before we go to a break, news of the attempt to impose a post-Saddam Iraq beings tonight's look at "The World in: 60."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Friction in the camp: Iraqi opposition groups meeting in London can't agree on a post-Saddam Hussein era. So, their two-day conference was extended.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad makes a landmark first visit to Britain and warns against war with Iraq. His host, Prime Minister Tony Blair, insisted action should follow if Baghdad breaches U.N. demands. Blistering words fired at Osama bin Laden by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, telling the terrorist leader not to hide behind the Palestinian cause. In a London newspaper, Arafat says, bin Laden -- quote -- "never helped us."
More evidence of anti-U.S. sentiment in South Korea: The U.S. military said three men, one armed with a knife, attacked an American Army officer on a pedestrian overpass. The officer was slightly injured.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: He says he had to see it for himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN PENN, ACTOR: I feel as somebody who considers himself a patriot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Sean Penn from Baghdad -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Al Gore has made it official. He's out of the race for the White House, presumably to take on President George W. Bush in 2004. The former vice president announced his decision in a "60 minutes" interview and explained it when he met with reporters today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My reasons, as I said last evening, didn't come down to any single factor. But because I have run for president twice before and because a race this time around would have focused on a Bush-Gore rematch, I felt that the focus of that race would inevitably have been more on the past than it should have been, when all races ought to be focused on the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: And that future is now wide open for the Democrats running for president.
One of the half-dozen or so often mentioned is Vermont Governor Howard Dean, who joins us now from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the state that holds the nation's first big party contest, the Iowa caucuses.
Thank you, Governor, for being with us.
GOV. HOWARD DEAN (D), VERMONT: Thanks for having me on, Connie.
CHUNG: All right, yesterday, you did say that it was a bittersweet day when you found out that Al Gore was not running in 2004. Now, you're running for president. It had to be a terrific day for you.
DEAN: Well, it is a good day in the sense that Al Gore and I actually shared something in common. We are the only people who are not in Congress. And we are the only people that have opposed the president's resolution on Iraq. We are the only people that did not support the president's education bill, because it's such a big unfunded mandate, it is going to raise a lot of property taxes around the country.
And now that the vice president is out, I am so very different than all the other candidates who are running, all of whom are from inside the Beltway, because I'm a governor. They're going to talk about health insurance. And they're good people. But I've done health insurance for every kid under the age of 18.
CHUNG: Governor...
DEAN: These are the kinds that make different primaries -- that make primaries interesting and set people apart.
CHUNG: Governor, with all due respect, I don't think a lot of people know who Howard Dean is.
DEAN: That's true.
CHUNG: Early polls show that you're down at maybe 1, 2 percent. Now, running for president costs a lot of money. Bush collected and spent maybe $70 million. Gore spent about $40 million. How are you going to play in this high-stakes game when you come from a small state?
DEAN: Well, part of it is, we are putting place the raising of the money now. I'm in Iowa here putting together an organization. We are going to announce our Iowa coordinator tomorrow.
A lot of it is message, though, as I said before. That's a disadvantage that I have. Everybody's from Washington. They all have fund-raising networks. The advantage I have is, I'm a governor. I've done it. And I have not done what so many Democrats in Washington have done, which is to try to pretend they're almost as Republican as the Republican president.
I think, if you want to beat the president, you have to know who you are. You have to be proud of the Democratic Party values. I think we ought to have a health insurance system in this country that includes everybody. And we've done a lot of that in Vermont. I think we can do that in the country as a whole. But, in Washington, they're mired down over arguing about things like the patient's bill of rights.
So, the advantage I have is message and being willing to stand up for a traditional Democratic message and Democratic values.
CHUNG: Governor Dean, thank you so much for being with us.
DEAN: Thank you. CHUNG: Al Gore has said that he made his decision on Friday, talking with his family as he prepared to host "Saturday Night Live."
During that program, he took a lot of shots at himself, but he also portrayed someone who is not stepping down: Republican Senate Leader Trent Lott, whose remarks at Senator Strom Thurmond's birthday party continue to plague him.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
GORE: It has come to my attention that some of my comments about Strom Thurmond a minute ago may have been construed as racially insensitive. Let me apologize. I meant no disrespect to any white people. I myself am a white man. And some, if not all of my best friends are white. Let me make this clear. As long as I'm in office, we will leave no white person behind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Think he's got a new career?
Today, Senate Republicans announced they will hold a meeting in January, on January 6, to reconsider Senator Lott's role. In an interview on Black Entertainment Television tonight, Senator Lott apologized yet again. He said he supports affirmative action, despite votes to the contrary, and acknowledged that he has been a part of -- quote -- "immoral leadership" in his part of the country in the past.
CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl watched the taping. And he joins us now from Capitol Hill.
Jonathan, did you hear anything that was different this time?
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, in terms of nuance, this was a more contrite Trent Lott. This was his full-blown mea culpa, if you will, much less time in a defensive mode.
If you remember, in some of his previous apologies, he was talking about all he had actually done in the area of civil rights and had been trying to defend himself. This time, he came out and not only apologized for his words about Strom Thurmond, but also acknowledged that he grew up in a segregated South, and that, at that time, he supported segregation.
He also talked about the fact that he regretted some of his own votes, including the vote that's gotten a lot attention, his vote against the Martin Luther King holiday. And what he said about that is, he said that, at the time of the vote, he did not realize how important a figure Martin Luther King was and the significance of Martin Luther King.
A rather incredulous Ed Gordon for BET asked him, "You didn't realize who Martin Luther King really was in 1983 at the time of that vote?" Here's what Trent Lott said. He said -- quote -- "I've learned a lot more since then. And I want to make this point very clear. I have a high appreciation for him as a man of peace, as a man of nonviolence, a man who did change the country. I made a mistake. And I would vote now for a Martin Luther King holiday.
And, as you said, Connie, he also said point blank that he is in favor of affirmative action. Ed Gordon said, "Across the board?"
And Trent Lott said, "Absolutely." That may come as a surprise to some of his Republican colleagues here.
CHUNG: John, there are reports that, privately, Trent Lott is saying, if he is unable to maintain the majority leader's position, he's going to leave the Senate. And that might cause the balance of power to change, because the Mississippi governor might appoint a Democrat to that seat and then it would be a 50-50 split.
KARL: Amazing, isn't it?
CHUNG: What do you know about that?
KARL: And that Mississippi governor is a Democrat. So, it is at least possible, if not likely that he would appoint a Democrat.
Well, I do know that Republican senators have told me that Trent Lott has made it very clear last week that he would in fact leave the Senate entirely. He would not step down simply as majority leader. He would leave the Senate. And many who I spoke to heard him say that, felt that it seemed like a threat to them. And they were very concerned about that. Now, since then, some of Trent Lott's allies have backed away from that.
Mitch McConnell was on the weekend talk shows saying that Senator Lott would never let a Democrat come in to replace him. So, who knows? But that is something that Senator Lott has made very clear to his colleagues, that he may in fact leave this Senate entirely. And that is something they absolutely do not want. That gets them back to 50/50. That changes the balance of power.
CHUNG: Absolutely. Jonathan Karl, thank you so much.
Still ahead: Politics mixes with Hollywood on the streets of Baghdad. Our man in Iraq talks with visiting American actor Sean Penn.
ANNOUNCER: Next: She says they're innocent photos of her little girl. The clerk at the photo lab said it was child porn and called the cops. A humiliated mom is fighting back -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Should photo clerks be operating as cops? Should they be policing your personal pictures for signs of wrongdoing, criminal activity or pornography? Tamie Dragone is suing Wal-Mart because they turned over to police her pictures of her 3-year-old daughter, including shots in which the girl was partially nude. Prosecutors filed no charges. At the time, Wal-Mart said it was just following its policy of turning over suspected child pornography pictures or images of possible child abuse.
Wal-Mart released a statement about its policy, saying -- quote -- "This is a judgment call, but we err on the side of caution and protection of the children." Wal-Mart declined to be interviewed on camera.
Tamie Dragone joins us from Hayes, Kansas, along with her lawyer, Tom Boone.
Thank you both for being with us.
Tamie, tell us what happened.
DRAGONE: Thank you.
TOM BOONE, ATTORNEY FOR DRAGONE: Thank you.
CHUNG: Tell us what happened, Tamie.
DRAGONE: I went to drop off my film. I dropped off my film and I took my daughter to dance class. I came back. We did a little bit of shopping. I went and I picked up my photos.
And it took the clerk a while to get me my photos. And once I picked them up, I thumbed through them, just casually looking at them. I left the photo counter after paying for my photos. When I was leaving, I did see the manager and two police officers walking towards the photo counter. I went to another part of the store. And I was shopping.
I had a uniformed police officer come up to me. And he said, "Is your name Tamie Dragone?" I said yes. And he says: "Are you shopping here with anybody? Are you here with anybody else?"
And I said, "No, just my children."
And he says, "We need to speak with you in the back." So, they escorted me to the back.
CHUNG: And that's when you were questioned about these photographs that you had taken.
DRAGONE: Yes.
CHUNG: Why do you think these photographs were suspicious?
DRAGONE: They didn't actually tell me that the photograph -- that it had to really pertain to photographs that I had taken. I really didn't know what it was about until I got into the back. The officer then pulled out these photos, which were completely innocent. And he referred to these, asking me who was in the picture. My daughter was swimming in the swimming pool with her father. She didn't have a top on. He wanted to know when were these taken, who took these pictures, where were they taken. And they were taken in July and I didn't even have them processed until September.
Previous to that, I've had pictures taken in April and June. And they had no problem processing those. And she was unclothed in those pictures also.
CHUNG: Now, you claim false imprisonment in your lawsuit. Why? Did they actually hold you there for a long time?
DRAGONE: Yes. They kept me there for 45 minutes.
They had a police officer in the room with me and my children. There was a police officer standing outside the door. The manager came in, questioned me a little bit. He went out, like they were deciding what to do. And then he came back in and asked me more questions. And, finally, at end, when I was allowed to go, the police officer told me, point blank, "We believe you, so we're going to let you go."
CHUNG: And, so you were like a -- but this is a statement from Wal-Mart: "This is a judgment call, since photos can be interpreted differently by different people. And we take such judgments seriously."
Wal-Mart also told CNN that six people on the staff looked at these photographs and they all agreed that they were alarmed enough to alert the authorities. Does that make sense to you?
DRAGONE: I don't disagree with Wal-Mart's policy. I disagree with how it was implemented.
My pictures -- a question at that point would have went a long way at the photo counter, instead of interrogating me and keeping me against my will for 45 minutes with my children present. The way everything was handled was just not appropriate.
CHUNG: When you say just one question at the counter, what would you feel would be -- would have been appropriate for you?
DRAGONE: I think the biggest question was who was the man in the picture, which was her father. And I think, when I said that to the police, he pretty much -- he said he believed me. They were going to let me go, after they interrogated me for 45 minutes.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: But, in fact, the county attorney was assigned to look into your case and even consider charges. Do you know what charges they were considering?
DRAGONE: Sexual exploitation of a child. BOONE: If I may interrupt, that is a felony.
And the minute they moved from store policy, when they called the officers in, they then were suspecting she was guilty of a class-C felony, which carries 32 months on the sentencing grid, sentence, if she's found guilty. It's what we call a border box. So, they moved from the store policy and they reached a conclusion based upon these pictures that have violated the state law.
We're not talking about the law enforcing Wal-Mart's policies. We are talking about the law enforcing the Kansas State law. And these pictures fall far short, Connie, of qualifying as a violation of that statute. That's the problem.
CHUNG: All right, Tom Boone, thank you so much for being with us.
Tamie Dragone, I'm a little incredulous myself. Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.
A reminder: Wal-Mart says its policy is to turn over what it calls questionable pictures for further review by law enforcement authorities, Wal-Mart calls this case a judgment call.
And when we come back: From Hollywood to Iraq, Sean Penn talks about his whirlwind tour.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: The Bush administration is signaling that it will have its official reaction this week to Iraq's reports on its weapons programs. Administration officials have been saying that Iraq will not get a second chance to revise its report if the U.S. finds it to be false or incomplete.
An unlikely visitor to Iraq for the past few days: Oscar- nominated bad boy Sean Penn. He said he wants both nations to find an alternative to war and wanted to see Iraq for himself in case there is war. Penn has called on the U.S. to release the evidence the White House says proves Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.
And he's criticized the president for stifling debate about U.S. policies towards Iraq. Penn says he sees his trip to Iraq as patriotic, taking personal responsibility for America's public policies.
Yesterday, he sat down in Baghdad with CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You said one the reasons you came is because you believe that there is a frightening war, potentially, going to come here. President Bush has said that he will remove Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, by force if necessary. Do you see an alternative method?
PENN: My position here is on the most -- in the most personal sense I feel as somebody who considers himself a patriot, considers himself obligated to my fellow he citizens, as a person of -- who has experienced privileges, who's prospered as a citizen of the United States, that I have -- that I will be partly responsible as a citizen who deserves the government that he gets -- and I do believe that -- that if I am to be partly responsible, which I will accept and if there is going to be blood on my hands, be it the blood of American soldiers or of Iraqis, be they military or civilian, that -- to live with myself, I don't want that blood to be invisible.
I want to it have a human face on both sides. And so, that is entirely -- at the moment the purpose of this trip, to make human what I have not been able to find human in the media in the United States at this stage.
ROBERTSON: You went to the children's hospital. That was your choice in the beginning. How did that make you feel?
PENN: Again, I -- you know, it's very moving to be at a children's hospital anywhere where you have these innocent, little people so sick. And as it plays to the context of the political situation, I'm trying to just absorb it with everything else that I'm experiencing here.
ROBERTSON: It is a very political situation and there will be people in the United States who will say, "Look, you've come here but you're only seeing a limited view of the country and that you're being perhaps manipulated by the government here. Is that the case?
PENN: I would say that the reason I came here is because I was seeing a limited perception of the country by, you know, what I feel is a talk -- kind of dominantly talking head media in the United States that, in many cases, it seems to have a bias that just never made sense to me, humanly -- a little more understanding on both levels while being here. And I think that it's, you know, a necessary thing as an American to do if you don't feel that you're understanding it as it's presented there.
ROBERTSON: You met with the deputy prime minister, Tariq Aziz. Do you have any insights from that meeting?
PENN: The insight that I would have and I think for to it to be productive, I would hope that this would not be a political commentary on my part, but more a human commentary -- is that not surprisingly the meeting with him I felt would have been much more productively served by more knowledgeable diplomats representing the United States and that that is one of the things that I would hope to encourage, is more communication.
ROBERTSON: This is a very, very important time for the Iraqi government as they try and build support for their position. Do you fear that you can be used as a political tool by them?
PENN: I don't believe that my positions or my intentions or that I'm, you know, somebody who was born last night in terms of cautiousness about that, that I will anything but offer some additional insights into the debate.
ROBERTSON: Do you have a better insight into whether or not Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?
PENN: Absolutely not.
ROBERTSON: And you say when you go back home you want to evaluate what you've learned here. Do you feel that there have been some significant gains on your part? It's been a very great personal trip, but has it been valuable? Has it been worthwhile?
PENN: Has this trip been worthwhile? Yes, of course, it has.
ROBERTSON: In what way?
PENN: You know, I don't know. I -- In my professional life, I function on impressions and they tend to start here and work their way up. And when they get up there, I'll let you know.
ROBERTSON: Does that take a long time?
PENN: I don't put a particular timetable on it. And I would hope that a particular timetable isn't put on the resolve to this conflict here.
ROBERTSON: Sean Penn, thank you very much.
PENN: You're very welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Coming up: What does England's Prince Harry have that someone would want to steal?
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Who will be our "Person of the Day"?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: You know, she probably shouldn't have done it, so why is she our "Person of the Day"? You'll meet her in just a minute. Don't miss this story. It's really good.
First, why would anyone care about Prince Harry's jeans? The answer tops tonight's "Snapshot."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): In London, a new plot brewing for Harry, not Harry the wizard, but Harry the prince. According to "The Sunday Times," Harry, the third in line to the throne, has been warned of a plot to steal a sample of his DNA. Monica Lewinsky's past White Houses escapades are apparently too hot for Italian TV, which usually loves sex and scandals. Italy's public TV pulled the plug on an interview with the former intern on a popular Sunday talk show.
Geneva's Lake Lemon: Hundreds of souls took the plunge into very frigid waters in the 65th Christmas Cup.
A grueling marathon race in Aspen, where skiers are racing for 24 hours straight, with no food or bathroom breaks. And for what: $25,000 and the title of toughest skier in the world.
A race of another sort for the U.S. Postal Service: Due to the holiday crush, today is one of the busiest days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: It's not often that doing something risky and dangerous makes you our "Person of the Day." But 17-year-old high school junior Melissa Alexander, 5 foot, 3 inches, 110 pounds, took off after an intruder in her home in Germantown, Ohio, tackled him, and held him until police came; 18-year-old Jason Burkett, 5 foot, 10 inches, 140 pounds, has been charged with theft.
The young woman who caught him, our "Person of the Day," Melissa Alexander, joins us now from Dayton, Ohio.
Melissa, you go girl.
MELISSA ALEXANDER, HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: Thank you.
CHUNG: That was so great.
All right, tell me. It's the middle of the night. You're asleep. And what happens?
ALEXANDER: Well, my cousin comes upstairs. And I'm my bedroom, like you said, asleep. And she wakes me up. And she's like: "Melissa, there's people downstairs. And they're outside." And, at first, I didn't believe her at all. And so she took me into the middle bedroom.
And she's like, "Look." She's sitting here trying to point out everything. And I'm still not seeing anything. And so, she's like, "Well, go wake up your mom." And so I go around the corner and I go and wake up my mom.
And she's like, "What's going on?"
I'm like, "Well, Jenny's (ph) seeing things. She says there's people outside."
And so she's like, "Well, just go downstairs and flip on and off some lights and they'll go away." So, my cousin and I, we go downstairs. And she's flipping on and off the light. And I'm looking out the side windows of her door, still trying to see what she's trying to tell me what's out there or whatever. And I'm still not seeing it. And then she's, like, "Melissa, listen, do you hear that?"
I'm, like, "No, I don't hear anything."
She's like, "I think there's somebody outside."
I'm like, "No, that's mom upstairs."
And she's like, "No, go check it out."
I'm like: "I'm not going out there. There's no way."
And she's like, "Well, I'll go with you." So, we go storm into the garage door. At that time, I was really mad and I had adrenaline rushing. I could feel the heat in my face. And so I fling open the garage door and I turn on the light.
And she's like, "Well, open up the garage door." So I punched the button and the garage door is opening. And, sure enough, I see two figures running with flashlights in their hands. And so that's when...
CHUNG: You took off after them.
ALEXANDER: Yes, I just took off running. I don't remember thinking about anything. And I just ran off. And the last thing I remember is him looking back. And about that time, I just jumped in midair and I jumped on his back and tackled him to the ground.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Amazing. And then what did you do? You asked someone to help get something to tie him up?
ALEXANDER: Yes, my cousin was still -- she was still on the driveway. And I'm like, "Hey, Jenny, go get me a dog leash or something, so I can tie him up."
And she's like: "What? What's going on? Who do you have out there?"
And I'm like, "Well, just listen to me." And so she goes to the garage. And, at that time, my mom is just now coming out into the garage. And they're talking. And I'm like, hurry up, hurry up, just in case he tries something. And so, my cousin, she calls 911. And my mother, she brings my 30-foot lunge line out to me and she throws it on the ground.
And I'm like, "What am I supposed to do with this?"
CHUNG: Do you have it in your hand there? It's a horse line?
ALEXANDER: Yes. It's got probably about 8 inches of chain and the rest is just nylon rope.
CHUNG: So did you hog-tie that boy?
ALEXANDER: Well, what I did is, I took this chain part and I put -- since he wouldn't give me his hands -- so, I took it and I put it like really close to the ground under his wrist. And I actually got this around his wrist. And I'm sitting here trying to hook the metal part and everything. And I'm thinking, well, what if he gets up and he tries to pull away or something? It can easily slip.
And so I just pulled on through and I tied with the nylon part, so I knew it wouldn't slip.
CHUNG: Great.
ALEXANDER: And so he's still not giving me his other hand. So, for some reason, I just stood up and I started dragging him across the snow.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Now, tell me. You're 5 foot, 3 inches. He's 5 foot, 10 inches. He's 140 pound. You're only 110. Weren't you scared?
ALEXANDER: No. Nothing at all crossed through my mind. I didn't even think about what he could have weapon-wise until the police were, like, "Whoa." It still hasn't hit me.
CHUNG: Melissa, five seconds left. What did he say to you?
ALEXANDER: He said, "My father's the finest lawyer in Dayton" and that he could sue me for what I've done to him.
CHUNG: Yes. You went, "Go away."
ALEXANDER: Well, I was like, "What I did to you was out of my own protection and I'd like to see what you could do."
CHUNG: Melissa Alexander, you're the best. I love it. Good for you. Congratulations. And thank you for being with us.
ALEXANDER: Thank you.
CHUNG: All right, that's our program for tonight.
Tomorrow: more on Senator Lott.
And coming up next: "LARRY KING LIVE. So, be sure to join him. He's got Ann Richards on.
Thank you so much for joining us. And for all of us here at CNN, good night and have a good day tomorrow.
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