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Stuart Rothenberg Discusses Lott Debate

Aired December 17, 2002 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Now back to the story that's been whirling the waters here in the States. Constituents have plenty to say this morning about Senator Trent Lott's appearance on BET last night, at Black Entertainment Television.
Lott is trying to save his job as Senate majority leader in the upcoming Congress. The position is now jeopardized by comments he made that many see as racist. National Correspondent Gary Tuchman is standing by in Lott's hometown of Pascagoula, Mississippi, he's been there talking to locals.

Let's check in with him now and what see what the temperature there is this morning.

Hello -- Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Leon, the temperature outside is about 71 degrees Fahrenheit, beautiful day, just eight days before Christmas. It's also very hot inside here, hot with emotion on both sides of the issue. We come to you from an old-fashioned soda fountain here in Senator Trent Lott's hometown.

And the reason people pay such close attention is because he is not just the Senate majority leader to them, not just a Mississippi senator to them, but a neighbor, someone they see a lot.

As a matter of fact, you look at the menu here at the (inaudible) soda fountain, and it says it is not uncommon to see political notables like Senator Majority Leader Trent Lott talking and enjoying a meal. And as a matter of fact, we are told he sits right here at this particular counter when he comes in, the same counter where J.C. is sitting.

J.C., Trent Lott did an interview yesterday. What do you think about what he's saying and what he's doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think he done good on the interview, OK, and he's a good man. And he's always helped Mississippi, he's helped the whole country.

TUCHMAN: Do you think that -- do you see how he's -- can you see how he's hurt some people by what he said at the birthday party and what he said previously?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't know what the hurt is, you know. But really, most everybody comes from the same background. Even if they got a little age on them, you know. TUCHMAN: Do you think it's...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... even people in Washington.

TUCHMAN: Do you think he should see -- he should still be the Senate majority leader, after all these Republicans meet next month?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do, because he's done a good job.

TUCHMAN: When you've seen him here at this counter, what do you say to him? If you saw him today, what would you say to him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we just talk, like everybody does, you know...

TUCHMAN: Well, what would you say to him, if you saw him right now, if he walked in and ordered some pork chop specials, it's $4.50 today, what would you say to him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd say I'm glad to see you. He's a good friend to all of us. He talks to all of us, when he comes in and he sits over there and eats his lunch, you know. He said he found out a lot of things that people need in the morning, by talking to him.

TUCHMAN: J.C., thanks for talking with us. I want to talk to another customer here at this soda fountain, and this is James sitting back here. And James has a little different opinion about the topic. James, I know you saw the interview last night with Trent Lott. What did you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't think he did enough to replace what he had done the night of Strom's birthday party. And I think in order for him to move forward, as a whip in the Senate, he's going to have to do a little bit more. You know, he said things last night that I know he know that wasn't true.

TUCHMAN: Well, let me ask you this. He did say last night that he would vote now for a Martin Luther King holiday, that he made a mistake, and he learned a lot. And he said he believes in affirmative action. And when you heard, what did you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I almost fell off my seat, because that's not something that's known by the Republican Party, as a whole. But as far as for him, I mean, his voting record just don't stand up to what he's saying today. But however, you know, we, as black Americans, we are the type of people that are willing to forgive. Now -- and we forgive him, I forgive him, you know.

But being a Christian man that I am, I mean, I can't do nothing but forgive him. But I know -- I was raised up in the same era that he was. You know, I'm 49, he's 61. You know, I remember the things that went on in the old south and this Jim Crow stuff's got to go.

TUCHMAN: So do you think he should resign as Senate majority leader? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he should resign as Senate majority leader, but I don't think he should leave the Senate, because he still will be able to do some things, you know, for Mississippi and for the country, if he remains in the Senate.

TUCHMAN: James, thank you very much for talking with us. We hear a lot throughout the United States, that people have a tough time naming their congressmen, naming their U.S. senators. That is not a problem here at this soda fountain in Pascagoula, Mississippi.

Leon, back to you.

HARRIS: All right. Good deal. Thanks, Gary. Gary Tuchman reporting live for us from Pascagoula. Appreciate that.

Now, Lott's Republican colleagues are going to be meeting on January 6. They'll get together and talk about whether or not he should stay on as leader.

Stuart Rothenberg is editor of the Rothenberg Political Report, and he's also a CNN Analyst, and he joins us from Washington.

Good to see you again -- Stu.

STUART ROTHENBERG, ROTHENBERG POLITICAL REPORT: Thanks, Leon.

HARRIS: All right. Let's get right to the comment that is the one, I'm sure, no doubt, that that gentleman in that piece there was -- I'm sorry -- in that interview that Gary just did was reacting to the most, his comments that came from Senator Lott last night that seemed to be 180 degrees away from positions he had staked out just a little while ago. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRENT LOTT, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I'm not sure we in America, certainly not, you know, white America and the people in the south fully understood who this man was -- the impact he was having on the fabric of this country.

ED GORDON, HOST, BET: But you certainly understood that, by the time that vote came up, Senator.

LOTT: Well, but...

GORDON: You knew who Dr. King was, at that the point?

LOTT: I did, but I've learned a lot more since then and I want to make this point very clearly. I have a high appreciation for him being a man of peace, a man that was for nonviolence, a man that did change this country. I've made a mistake. And I now -- I would vote now for a Martin Luther King holiday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: And we've heard people this morning, Stu, say that that mistake that he made was actually trying to sell that line last night. What do you think of that?

ROTHENBERG: Well, I think ultimately, Leon, the question is was he convincing, was he contrite enough, did he convince people that he was being honest and forthright. And I think, frankly, he failed in that regard. I don't think people believed him. I don't think he converted anyone who was an opponent. And in terms of his own allies, I just think increasingly there is a sense in Washington that he's not going to be able to survive as leader.

Part of the problem is, moving on to another question, that question about affirmative action, when he said he was for affirmative action.

HARRIS: Yes.

ROTHENBERG: ... you know, a lot of this is a question of language. He is not for the affirmative action that civil rights leaders mean, when they talk about affirmative action or liberal Democrats. He may be for his own idea of what affirmative action is, but we have a huge language problem here, in addition to having the fundamental issue that Trent Lott has to deal with, which is was that comment of the birthday.

HARRIS: Yes. But even -- OK, considering then, even if you were to be, granted, that there may be some differences in languages on the affirmative action, based upon what he said about it last night, do you think he made any ground or caused any more damage to his image with either blacks or -- actually, not just blacks, but minority Republicans or who, you know, who have been skeptical in saying they're on the side anyway or those who had been in the conservative wing there who had counted on him as one of their allies against affirmative action.

ROTHENBERG: Right. No, I don't think he helped himself. He may have, indeed, hurt himself by adding to some confusion over this question of affirmative action and to what he believes and what he doesn't believe and what he says. It was not -- it was not a performance, I think, that would have either convinced critics that he had come to terms with his own beliefs and was willing to re-examine his values and his assumptions and move forward, or one that would satisfy Republicans and/or conservatives that he would be able to do an efficient, effective job as leader of the Republican majority in the Senate.

HARRIS: Let me ask you what you've been hearing about what's been happening at the White House. Our John King has been reporting that the president wants his team to stay totally away from this and let the Senate make its own decision. But there's also a report in -- I believe it was in The Washington Post this morning. I want to quote this, because I don't want to get this incorrectly. It says the White House is looking for a southern Senator of stature to come forward and call for Lott's resignation. What do you know about that?

ROTHENBERG: Well, the buzz in Washington is certainly that the White House has decided that Trent Lott is toast and that they are not going to do anything to save him, that they're not going to crawl out on that same limb he's on. I think the president is concerned that this Lott fiasco could really besmirch the reputation, is besmirching the reputation of the party and, ultimately, could damage the president. They're looking for some way out for Trent Lott. A delicate way, a way to ease the fall, but yet, make sure that they ease him out. I think that's very clear now.

HARRIS: All right. Well, January 6 is going to be D Day for Senator Lott on all of this. First of all, do you expect him to make it that far, or, two, would you expect him to say, I don't know "Hold out the threat of saying, OK, fine, I'll wait until well after that date to go ahead and resign totally from the Senate and allow the Democratic governor of my state to appoint a Democrat to the state and totally change the power structure there?

ROTHENBERG: Well, I mean, I think there's going to be increasing pressure on the senator to resign his leadership position, sooner rather than later. Increasingly, I'm skeptical that we're going to get to an actual fight on this on January 6. I mean, if it looks as messy as it is now, I think the White House is going to make every effort behind the scenes to make sure this doesn't become a very public bloodbath on the sixth.

In terms of Senator Lott leaving the seat vacant and allowing an appointment, there are a whole bunch of questions out there about the timing of a vacancy, if one were to occur, there are different -- apparently different possible systems of replacement, whether or not the senator would resign earlier, rather than later, before the 1st, after the 1st.

There is, of course, a general election scheduled in November for a governor. There could be some sort of special there. But I think the White House and the Republican leadership in the Senate, aside from the Senate, are going to try to do everything they can to make sure that this does not become a 50/50 Senate again and all and that entails. Again, there would be pressure on maybe one Republican to bolt on a 50/50 Senate, so this has turned into a giant political headache for the Republican party as well as, of course, for Senator Lott.

HARRIS: Exactly. And see, that's why it strikes me so that this idea of him being able to threaten to go ahead and do whatever it takes to throw a monkey wrench in the works and turn the Senate back into a 50/50 operation, with perhaps, the Democrats, once again, taking control again, that could be his nuclear weapon here.

ROTHENBERG: Well, it's possible, but remember this, Leon, that Trent Lott made it pretty clear to many of us that this was going to be his last term in office and that he was going to try to go to K Street, to become a lobbyist, make some significant money. He's been in politics, in government his whole life, working on the Hill, either on staff or as a member. And he does want to enter the private sector. If he does damage the Republican party, the president's prospects over the next year, I don't think that would leave him in the good graces of the party and that would certainly damage his future as a lobbyist. So this nuclear weapon that he has is kind of two-sided. It could effect him in a negative way, just like it could hurt his party.

HARRIS: So deterrence does work?

ROTHENBERG: I think this is a case of mutual assured destruction.

HARRIS: There you go. Stuart Rothenberg. Thanks, as always. Have a good one. We'll see you later on, OK.

ROTHENBERG: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 17, 2002 - 11:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Now back to the story that's been whirling the waters here in the States. Constituents have plenty to say this morning about Senator Trent Lott's appearance on BET last night, at Black Entertainment Television.
Lott is trying to save his job as Senate majority leader in the upcoming Congress. The position is now jeopardized by comments he made that many see as racist. National Correspondent Gary Tuchman is standing by in Lott's hometown of Pascagoula, Mississippi, he's been there talking to locals.

Let's check in with him now and what see what the temperature there is this morning.

Hello -- Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Leon, the temperature outside is about 71 degrees Fahrenheit, beautiful day, just eight days before Christmas. It's also very hot inside here, hot with emotion on both sides of the issue. We come to you from an old-fashioned soda fountain here in Senator Trent Lott's hometown.

And the reason people pay such close attention is because he is not just the Senate majority leader to them, not just a Mississippi senator to them, but a neighbor, someone they see a lot.

As a matter of fact, you look at the menu here at the (inaudible) soda fountain, and it says it is not uncommon to see political notables like Senator Majority Leader Trent Lott talking and enjoying a meal. And as a matter of fact, we are told he sits right here at this particular counter when he comes in, the same counter where J.C. is sitting.

J.C., Trent Lott did an interview yesterday. What do you think about what he's saying and what he's doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think he done good on the interview, OK, and he's a good man. And he's always helped Mississippi, he's helped the whole country.

TUCHMAN: Do you think that -- do you see how he's -- can you see how he's hurt some people by what he said at the birthday party and what he said previously?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't know what the hurt is, you know. But really, most everybody comes from the same background. Even if they got a little age on them, you know. TUCHMAN: Do you think it's...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... even people in Washington.

TUCHMAN: Do you think he should see -- he should still be the Senate majority leader, after all these Republicans meet next month?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do, because he's done a good job.

TUCHMAN: When you've seen him here at this counter, what do you say to him? If you saw him today, what would you say to him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we just talk, like everybody does, you know...

TUCHMAN: Well, what would you say to him, if you saw him right now, if he walked in and ordered some pork chop specials, it's $4.50 today, what would you say to him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd say I'm glad to see you. He's a good friend to all of us. He talks to all of us, when he comes in and he sits over there and eats his lunch, you know. He said he found out a lot of things that people need in the morning, by talking to him.

TUCHMAN: J.C., thanks for talking with us. I want to talk to another customer here at this soda fountain, and this is James sitting back here. And James has a little different opinion about the topic. James, I know you saw the interview last night with Trent Lott. What did you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't think he did enough to replace what he had done the night of Strom's birthday party. And I think in order for him to move forward, as a whip in the Senate, he's going to have to do a little bit more. You know, he said things last night that I know he know that wasn't true.

TUCHMAN: Well, let me ask you this. He did say last night that he would vote now for a Martin Luther King holiday, that he made a mistake, and he learned a lot. And he said he believes in affirmative action. And when you heard, what did you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I almost fell off my seat, because that's not something that's known by the Republican Party, as a whole. But as far as for him, I mean, his voting record just don't stand up to what he's saying today. But however, you know, we, as black Americans, we are the type of people that are willing to forgive. Now -- and we forgive him, I forgive him, you know.

But being a Christian man that I am, I mean, I can't do nothing but forgive him. But I know -- I was raised up in the same era that he was. You know, I'm 49, he's 61. You know, I remember the things that went on in the old south and this Jim Crow stuff's got to go.

TUCHMAN: So do you think he should resign as Senate majority leader? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he should resign as Senate majority leader, but I don't think he should leave the Senate, because he still will be able to do some things, you know, for Mississippi and for the country, if he remains in the Senate.

TUCHMAN: James, thank you very much for talking with us. We hear a lot throughout the United States, that people have a tough time naming their congressmen, naming their U.S. senators. That is not a problem here at this soda fountain in Pascagoula, Mississippi.

Leon, back to you.

HARRIS: All right. Good deal. Thanks, Gary. Gary Tuchman reporting live for us from Pascagoula. Appreciate that.

Now, Lott's Republican colleagues are going to be meeting on January 6. They'll get together and talk about whether or not he should stay on as leader.

Stuart Rothenberg is editor of the Rothenberg Political Report, and he's also a CNN Analyst, and he joins us from Washington.

Good to see you again -- Stu.

STUART ROTHENBERG, ROTHENBERG POLITICAL REPORT: Thanks, Leon.

HARRIS: All right. Let's get right to the comment that is the one, I'm sure, no doubt, that that gentleman in that piece there was -- I'm sorry -- in that interview that Gary just did was reacting to the most, his comments that came from Senator Lott last night that seemed to be 180 degrees away from positions he had staked out just a little while ago. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRENT LOTT, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I'm not sure we in America, certainly not, you know, white America and the people in the south fully understood who this man was -- the impact he was having on the fabric of this country.

ED GORDON, HOST, BET: But you certainly understood that, by the time that vote came up, Senator.

LOTT: Well, but...

GORDON: You knew who Dr. King was, at that the point?

LOTT: I did, but I've learned a lot more since then and I want to make this point very clearly. I have a high appreciation for him being a man of peace, a man that was for nonviolence, a man that did change this country. I've made a mistake. And I now -- I would vote now for a Martin Luther King holiday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: And we've heard people this morning, Stu, say that that mistake that he made was actually trying to sell that line last night. What do you think of that?

ROTHENBERG: Well, I think ultimately, Leon, the question is was he convincing, was he contrite enough, did he convince people that he was being honest and forthright. And I think, frankly, he failed in that regard. I don't think people believed him. I don't think he converted anyone who was an opponent. And in terms of his own allies, I just think increasingly there is a sense in Washington that he's not going to be able to survive as leader.

Part of the problem is, moving on to another question, that question about affirmative action, when he said he was for affirmative action.

HARRIS: Yes.

ROTHENBERG: ... you know, a lot of this is a question of language. He is not for the affirmative action that civil rights leaders mean, when they talk about affirmative action or liberal Democrats. He may be for his own idea of what affirmative action is, but we have a huge language problem here, in addition to having the fundamental issue that Trent Lott has to deal with, which is was that comment of the birthday.

HARRIS: Yes. But even -- OK, considering then, even if you were to be, granted, that there may be some differences in languages on the affirmative action, based upon what he said about it last night, do you think he made any ground or caused any more damage to his image with either blacks or -- actually, not just blacks, but minority Republicans or who, you know, who have been skeptical in saying they're on the side anyway or those who had been in the conservative wing there who had counted on him as one of their allies against affirmative action.

ROTHENBERG: Right. No, I don't think he helped himself. He may have, indeed, hurt himself by adding to some confusion over this question of affirmative action and to what he believes and what he doesn't believe and what he says. It was not -- it was not a performance, I think, that would have either convinced critics that he had come to terms with his own beliefs and was willing to re-examine his values and his assumptions and move forward, or one that would satisfy Republicans and/or conservatives that he would be able to do an efficient, effective job as leader of the Republican majority in the Senate.

HARRIS: Let me ask you what you've been hearing about what's been happening at the White House. Our John King has been reporting that the president wants his team to stay totally away from this and let the Senate make its own decision. But there's also a report in -- I believe it was in The Washington Post this morning. I want to quote this, because I don't want to get this incorrectly. It says the White House is looking for a southern Senator of stature to come forward and call for Lott's resignation. What do you know about that?

ROTHENBERG: Well, the buzz in Washington is certainly that the White House has decided that Trent Lott is toast and that they are not going to do anything to save him, that they're not going to crawl out on that same limb he's on. I think the president is concerned that this Lott fiasco could really besmirch the reputation, is besmirching the reputation of the party and, ultimately, could damage the president. They're looking for some way out for Trent Lott. A delicate way, a way to ease the fall, but yet, make sure that they ease him out. I think that's very clear now.

HARRIS: All right. Well, January 6 is going to be D Day for Senator Lott on all of this. First of all, do you expect him to make it that far, or, two, would you expect him to say, I don't know "Hold out the threat of saying, OK, fine, I'll wait until well after that date to go ahead and resign totally from the Senate and allow the Democratic governor of my state to appoint a Democrat to the state and totally change the power structure there?

ROTHENBERG: Well, I mean, I think there's going to be increasing pressure on the senator to resign his leadership position, sooner rather than later. Increasingly, I'm skeptical that we're going to get to an actual fight on this on January 6. I mean, if it looks as messy as it is now, I think the White House is going to make every effort behind the scenes to make sure this doesn't become a very public bloodbath on the sixth.

In terms of Senator Lott leaving the seat vacant and allowing an appointment, there are a whole bunch of questions out there about the timing of a vacancy, if one were to occur, there are different -- apparently different possible systems of replacement, whether or not the senator would resign earlier, rather than later, before the 1st, after the 1st.

There is, of course, a general election scheduled in November for a governor. There could be some sort of special there. But I think the White House and the Republican leadership in the Senate, aside from the Senate, are going to try to do everything they can to make sure that this does not become a 50/50 Senate again and all and that entails. Again, there would be pressure on maybe one Republican to bolt on a 50/50 Senate, so this has turned into a giant political headache for the Republican party as well as, of course, for Senator Lott.

HARRIS: Exactly. And see, that's why it strikes me so that this idea of him being able to threaten to go ahead and do whatever it takes to throw a monkey wrench in the works and turn the Senate back into a 50/50 operation, with perhaps, the Democrats, once again, taking control again, that could be his nuclear weapon here.

ROTHENBERG: Well, it's possible, but remember this, Leon, that Trent Lott made it pretty clear to many of us that this was going to be his last term in office and that he was going to try to go to K Street, to become a lobbyist, make some significant money. He's been in politics, in government his whole life, working on the Hill, either on staff or as a member. And he does want to enter the private sector. If he does damage the Republican party, the president's prospects over the next year, I don't think that would leave him in the good graces of the party and that would certainly damage his future as a lobbyist. So this nuclear weapon that he has is kind of two-sided. It could effect him in a negative way, just like it could hurt his party.

HARRIS: So deterrence does work?

ROTHENBERG: I think this is a case of mutual assured destruction.

HARRIS: There you go. Stuart Rothenberg. Thanks, as always. Have a good one. We'll see you later on, OK.

ROTHENBERG: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com