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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Will Trent Lott Survive?; Too Much Pressure on Teen Athlete LeBron James?
Aired December 18, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, HOST: Well, hello, everyone and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Daryn Kagan. Arthel Neville is on assignment today.
We are talking about: Is there anyone out there who is not taking a whack at Senator Trent Lott? Where will he apologize next? And can he survive in his political career? We're going to find out where he's getting support and why. And, as one viewer pointed out yesterday, the birthday party gaffe has become a political feeding frenzy.
And then you're going to want to stay tuned, because Charles Barkley gives us some idea of what it's like to get kicked around by the media. Spike Lee also weighs in with some controversial statements.
And the buzz behind teen athlete LeBron James, is it too much pressure for a single high school athlete? We'll be looking at all the buzz and all the hype around him.
First, though, we start with Trent Lott. And the Senate Republican leader says he's not going anywhere. He says he has the votes to hold on to his leadership position and has absolutely no intention of resigning. Trent Lott spoke just a short time ago in Biloxi, Mississippi. Let's listen in to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: I've talked to the president and we had a very good conversation. There seems to be some things that are kind of seeping out that maybe have not been helpful. And I understand how that happens, because you've got a lot of people who work there who have different points of view. But I believe that they do support what I'm trying to do here and the president will continue to do so.
QUESTION: Have you talked to any other senators personally and asked for their support?
LOTT: I've been on the phone, obviously, continuously for the last week. And I've been talking to senators, frankly, of both parties. I've had Democrats that have called and sent e-mails saying: We've been through difficult times and we understand and we're with you, offered their support.
Many of them have said: What can I say? Well, if you've got something to say, like former Senator Paul Simon from Illinois. He was there at that event that I spoke to. And he has spoken up, Bob Dole last night, Orrin Hatch this morning. So, yes, a lot of senators, I've been talking to them and answering their questions, asking their advice. And I believe I have their support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Well, wouldn't it be interesting to be listening in on those phone conversations?
We are joined now by CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl to give us an idea of what is taking place behind the scenes.
Jon, hello. Good to have you with us.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Daryn.
You know, there was something else he said in that little stakeout there. Senator Lott also was asked if he would leave the Senate, if he would resign all the way, if it came to that. Would he actually prematurely leave and allow the Democratic governor of Mississippi to appoint his replacement? This is something that has been an object of much speculation up here.
And Senator Lott said that he has a six-year contract with the people of Mississippi, that he would fulfill that contract and stay in the Senate no matter what.
But there's more news out here. The latest comes from Colin Powell. Secretary of State Powell has addressed this issue, addressed it today, talked about what he thinks of Trent Lott, what he had to say, and whether or not he should be leader.
Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I was disappointed in the senator's statement. I deplored the sentiments behind the statement. There was nothing about the 1948 election or the Dixiecrat agenda that should have been acceptable in any way to any American at that time or any American now. I will let the senator and members of the Senate deal with this issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: So, very much echoing the White House line from Colin Powell, saying that he is, of course, very critical of what Senator Lott had to say and he is not going to get involved in the question of whether or not he should remain the majority leader here in the United States Senate.
But somebody else did weigh into that. And that is another Republican senator came out, the first Republican senator to suggest that Senator Lott may in fact need to step down. This is Lincoln Chafee, a liberal Republican from the state of Rhode Island. He went on a radio address in Rhode Island and said -- quote -- "It's time for a change" and then went on to say this:
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. LINCOLN CHAFEE (R), RHODE ISLAND: The only way to have a change, in my opinion, is for the White House to come in here and to say to the majority leader, Trent Lott, I think it's time for a change. I think that's the only vehicle that's going to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Now, Senator Chafee is the only Republican senator to suggest that Senator Lott needs to go that directly. His office says, though, that that is falling short of actually calling for his resignation.
But there are several Republicans who have gone out and actually said that they support Senator Lott, some very senior Republicans. You heard Senator Lott mention some of those, people like Orrin Hatch and Ted Stevens, very influential, very senior members of the Republican conference here. Those are the people he needs support of.
One Republican senator, Mike DeWine of Ohio, told me just a little while ago that he believes that Senator Lott has got enough support to stay on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MIKE DEWINE (R), OHIO: My prediction is that Trent Lott will retain his position as majority leader, because of the reason I said, that the majority of my colleagues, I believe, will come to the conclusion that this is a good man. We all know him. We know Trent Lott. We know that he is not a racist. We know. We serve with him every day. We see him every day. We know what kind of person he is. We all make mistakes. This was a horrible mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: So, Daryn, in conclusion, you have a remarkably unpredictable situation. Conventional wisdom here and around Washington is that Trent Lott certainly will need to go. But here in the United States Senate, there are a number of Republican senators supporting him and very few willing to come out publicly and say he needs to go.
KAGAN: All right, Jon, a couple questions for you. He needs 26 votes in order to stay in.
KARL: Yes, absolutely, including his own vote, by the way. So, you can say 25 votes.
KAGAN: OK, so 25, just to do that.
And I know you're not privy to these exact conversations. But you know how things work in Washington. When we hear Trent Lott say, yes, he has been on the phone quite a bit, what's taking place in those conversations? I imagine it's not just a matter of asking for support. There are some deals going back and forth.
KARL: Well, certainly, Senator Lott is talking to each and every one of his colleagues, making calls to every single one of his 50 fellow Republicans and asking for their support.
And what we do know is that most of them are not willing to commit, that you do have a handful, maybe about eight or nine, who have committed that, yes, they will support Senator Lott. And most of them are saying no. Clearly, I don't -- I'm not privy to any discussions about deals or this or that, but Lott is somebody who has earned his position in the party, because he is somebody who takes care of his fellow Republicans. So, you can imagine, there are some interesting discussions going on.
But right now, most of these senators are holding their cards right up against their vest and not saying one way or another what they'll do. And that's a pretty dicey situation for Senator Lott. He would hope to see more of his colleagues doing what we just saw Mike DeWine do, coming out publicly and saying: We're with him. That's not happening.
KAGAN: All right, Jon Karl on Capitol Hill -- Jon, thank you so much. Thanks for joining us.
Here to talk about more of this: Kellyanne Conway, president of the Polling Company; and Cynthia Tucker, editorial page editor of "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution."
Ladies, welcome. Thanks for being here with us. Appreciate it.
Kellyanne, I want to go ahead and start with you.
You heard Senator Chafee say he wants the White House to come out and say exactly what should happen. There has been some criticism of the president, but, in general, this is hands-off, at least in front of the scenes.
KELLYANNE CONWAY, THE POLLING COMPANY: Well, it ought to be, because, if you look at the procedure, the United States Senate must elect its majority leader and its minority leader. And they will have that opportunity come January. They would have anyway. And I think that's an important point to make.
KAGAN: You think this is really going to last all the way until January 6, when they gather? Can the Republicans afford to have it go that long?
CONWAY: Well, if this has become a public relations battle, then I would think not. And, unfortunately, it is. Unfortunately, this has become a big game of gotcha.
If Trent Lott is in fact a racist -- and most people believe he is not, including me. Everybody who has worked with him does not believe he is. If he's truly a racist, then you wouldn't even want him in the United States Senate, would you? We would not him not to be one of the 100 people who leads this nation in the United States Senate.
But the majority party in this case, the Republican Party, come January does have the right and must elect a majority leader. So, Senator Chafee can't really punt that obligation. He's one of the 52 Republicans who will be able to cast a vote.
And, by the way, Daryn, Cynthia, I would challenge Senator Chafee, if he really believes it's time for a change, he's welcome to run for majority leader. It's a secret ballot. If he thinks he can gin up enough support, then he ought to go for it.
KAGAN: He's probably a little bit too moderate to get a lot of support from his fellow Republicans, at least as majority leader.
CONWAY: Well, we keep hearing how moderate the Republican Party is and how moderate the Republican Senate is. I disagree. But let's put it to the test. And, look, if people...
KAGAN: No, I meant Senator Chafee. He's moderate in a group of Republicans that is not so moderate.
I want to move on here, because we're not hearing from President Bush, but we are hearing from Governor Jeb Bush of Florida. He has weighed in on this. Let's go ahead and take look at that, Governor Bush saying: "It doesn't help to have this swirling controversy that Senator Lott, in spite of his enormous political skills, doesn't seem to be able to handle well. Something's going to have to change. This can't be the topic of conversation over the next week."
Cynthia, this sounds like the governor at least is saying: You know what, Trent Lott? It's not going to help if you stick around until January 6, when the Republicans get together to vote on your leadership.
CYNTHIA TUCKER, "ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": And, Daryn, it is hard to imagine that Jeb Bush is saying this without having consulted with his brother, President Bush.
And it would be naive of all of us to sit here and suggest that President Bush doesn't have enormous influence over this. Of course he does. He is not only titular head of the Republican Party nationally, but he is also a very dominant Republican figure at the moment, because of the results of the midterm elections barely a month ago.
President Bush put his enormous popularity to the test, using it well. He preserved -- or won a majority in the Senate. So he wields enormous influence in that body. And if he chooses to insert himself and tell key members of the Senate that Trent Lott has to go, then Trent Lott will go.
KAGAN: All right, on that note...
CONWAY: I don't disagree.
KAGAN: You do not disagree? CONWAY: I don't disagree. But I do think some of the most decisive comments that have been made on this topic have come from President Bush last week in Philadelphia.
He and his senior adviser, Karl Rove, have been on the record denouncing these comments, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer. We're now asking them to come back and interject themselves procedurally. And they may. But I think what the president, and not just the leader of the Republican Party, the leader of this nation, has said in no uncertain terms is that he finds these comments to have been offensive, repugnant, and unfortunate and not reflective of either President Bush or his administration's policies.
KAGAN: All right, Kellyanne, you stay right where you are.
Cynthia, you do the same.
We're going to keep talking about what kind of support Trent Lott is getting from the White House. Political analyst Bill Schneider has some ideas about that. And Bill will join us after the break.
And then later, we're going to talk about the battle over Barry Bonds' record-setting home run baseball. See if you agree with the court and answer our "Question of the Day": Who should have received the ball?
We're going to take your calls and e-mails later this hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
The White House has been harsh in its criticism of Trent Lott. And while spokesman Ari Fleischer says the president doesn't think that Lott needs to resign, he apparently will not interfere if Senate Republicans decide that they want a new leader.
Our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, is joining us now.
It looks like you're in Washington. You made it back to your home base.
Hi, Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Hi, Daryn.
KAGAN: What about the White House strategy in dealing with this, kind of a hands-off, but not kind of hands-off?
SCHNEIDER: It's all over the place. And that is what is creating all the confusing in this episode, because the White House harshly -- the president harshly denounced Senator Lott last week, saying that he thought his remarks were not in the spirit of the country, clearly implying that he didn't think he was someone that the president could work with. He had nothing good to say about Lott. Privately, he said he continues to regard Lott as a friend; he's not pressuring him to step aside. What do they want? There are all kinds of stories coming out about members of the White House political operation, Karl Rove and his deputies, calling members of the Senate, hinting that his departure is inevitable, trying to urge Republican senators to get it over with quickly.
My guess is, if the White House says go, he goes. If the White House says stay, he stays. And Republican senators are sitting there trying to figure out: What are we supposed to do?
KAGAN: One problem here. This is a Bush White House, a president, actually, who likes to look -- takes himself as a very loyal human being and doesn't like to just kind of kick people to the curb.
SCHNEIDER: That's right.
And the president would like to see this happen -- that is, Lott depart from the leadership, not from the Senate, but from his leadership position in the Senate -- because it will be a lot easier for him to pursue his agenda on a lot of items, including some judicial nominees that are likely to be very controversial. And they don't want someone whose racial bigotry is an issue presiding over the Senate in those circumstances.
So, it's pretty clear the White House would like Lott to leave that. But it doesn't want to be seen as pushing him out. It wants the senators, who are his constituency, the Republican Senate majority who voted for him, to do the dirty work. But the senators seem disinclined to do that unless the White House forces their hand.
KAGAN: And let's move outside the White House and I think you have some new poll numbers to show us.
SCHNEIDER: Well, yes.
In the latest poll that we've done this week, we find that most people think that Lott's remarks were, in fact, not a statement of his support for segregation, but were a poor choice of words, that he exercised bad judgment. But, when asked, do you think he should stay in his position as majority leader of the United States Senate, by a sizable margin -- it's about 45 to 30 -- Americans say no.
They think he should give up that position, because he's not suited to be the image, the face of the Republican majority in the Senate, even though they regard it as a matter of poor judgment.
KAGAN: Before we let you go, Bill, look in your crystal ball, your D.C. crystal ball. Does he stay? Does he go? And does it all go down before January 6?
SCHNEIDER: I think it is likely to happen sooner rather than later. And my guess is 50/50, because it all depends on what the White House does and whether they are going to push this or not. If the White House doesn't push this, it's not going to happen, because it's pretty clear that you don't have a majority of senators ready to stick in the knife.
KAGAN: Gone gone, like gone all the way back to Pascagoula or just gone from the leadership position?
SCHNEIDER: Gone from the leadership position. I don't think he'll give up his seat. That would really be a betrayal of Republicans, because it would deliver that seat to a Democrat. And that could make a big difference for the Bush agenda. Bush does not want that to happen.
KAGAN: All right, Bill Schneider joining us from Washington, thank you very much.
And, Bill, a very nice Christmas tie. Very festive.
SCHNEIDER: Thank you. It was a gift.
KAGAN: I'm liking that. I'm looking that little touch. Very good.
OK, let's bring back in Kellyanne Conway and also Cynthia Tucker, who is with me right now here in Atlanta.
Ladies, let's talk about how the Republicans and the White House are handling this. I have to say, it looks like such a mess, they almost look like Democrats, in how kind of they're self-combusting here.
TUCKER: They do look very disorganized.
And I think one of the things that's important to recall here is that the harshest criticism of Trent Lott's remarks started first from other conservatives. It started mostly with conservative pundits writing online and some in print, including Andrew Sullivan, Charles Krauthammer, who wrote condemning Trent Lott very harshly and suggesting...
KAGAN: Now, let's be fair. This started with the Democrats kind of fanning the flames and trying to hold on to something.
TUCKER: No, no, no. Absolutely not. In fact, if you look back, Tom Daschle's initial comments were very tepid.
CONWAY: Surprise.
TUCKER: There are some reporters who say, when they called the Congressional Black Caucus for comments, that their criticism was very tepid as well. So, the harshest criticism initially came from conservatives.
KAGAN: Kellyanne, I want to get your take on what's happening with the Republican Party. And they seemed to have been handling things so well, everything going their way recently. For them to be handling this like this just does not seem typical.
CONWAY: But what do you mean mishandle? I think there a couple issues here that are yet to be resolved. And we all just presume that America is on board with the conclusions that have been arrived at by many of Senator Lott's detractors, who really stoked this fire from the beginning. No. 1, since when is the accused in this country bearing the burden to prove that he or she is not what they are accused of being?
Everybody just -- I just heard someone say the racial bigotry of Trent Lott. Where is that evident? I keep hearing so much about his -- quote -- "record, his record."
KAGAN: Kellyanne, you know that event after event keeps coming out, whether it was the birthday party or it was something from 20 years ago that was reported in his hometown newspaper or whether it was...
CONWAY: Does the N-word offend anyone besides me this show? Does the N-word offend anybody? I can't even say the N-word and description of the word that I would not dare mouth, because it is so offensive and it is so unequivocal.
And when Senator Robert Byrd said that, everybody just sort of dismissed it as: He's a creature of his time. He apologized. Let it go. It was a one-minute story. Nothing constructive is coming of this, ladies and gentlemen. Why hasn't anyone come forward and said, listen, let's have a bipartisan commission -- a favorite of Washington -- let's have a bipartisan commission headed by Senator Lott and Senator Bob Byrd to talk about race relations in this country? I bet you any network would have it on.
KAGAN: Well, that would be interesting.
CONWAY: But nobody talks about that. We're just all after someone's head. Let's put scalps on the wall. Let's feel better. Everybody is going to pick the carcass. The runners-up hate the prom queen. The baby bells hate WorldCom. The Democrats hate Trent Lott. This is new?
TUCKER: Just a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Hold on. We'll talk about this in just a minute. You guys all have to wait a minute, because we're actually going to have to turn this up a notch in just a bit.
As if it wasn't interesting enough with these ladies, we're going to bring in Charles Barkley and NBA team owner Mark Cuban. They're going to join us next. Do you think they're here to just talk about sports? No. These men are going to weigh in on Trent Lott as well.
And so, don't forget to call and e-mail us about the "Question of the Day." Boy, there's a lot going on here besides Trent Lott. We want to know who you think should get Barry Bonds' record-breaking baseball. And then we're also going to tell you what the judge decided in this case. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
KAGAN: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We continue to talk about Trent Lott, and we bring in two people who I promise you're not going to see on any other program talking about this topic. We have our contributor, Charles Barkley, also, Mark Cuban, owner of the Dallas Mavericks. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us ladies here on TALKBACK LIVE. We appreciate it.
MARK CUBAN, OWNER, DALLAS MAVERICKS: My pleasure.
CHARLES BARKLEY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you very much.
KAGAN: It's good to have you with us. All right. I'm going to kind of create a scene here. I'm going to put three people in a room: Mark, Charles and Trent Lott. You two are guys who know what it feels like to be under fire. Someone said, "Oh, come on. Who's going to do that?" What kind of advice would you give Trent Lott in this situation?
BARKLEY: Well, he did all he could do. Now he's just at the media's mercy. He's apologized. So not it's just going to become a contact between Republicans and Democrats, which is going to be a big waste of time.
I mean, because, him resigning or stepping down really won't solve any problems. We got to fix the whole system. I mean, they got to bring another guy in, who, if they make it a black and white thing, the next guy they bring in is going to be white. There are no black senators. So that really won't solve the problem. They've got to fix the system as it is.
KAGAN: So you think they're focusing on the wrong thing, Charles?
BARKLEY: Of course they are. They always do. They sit around and debate about -- first of all, Trent Lott is from Mississippi. He thinks like that. He's said it many times. This is not something new.
CUBAN: But Charles, you're not going to fix the system. You know that.
BARKLEY: I know. But see, that's the bad thing about it, Mark. We, as people, we're such a group of dummies, we sit around and argue over the system, and the system is so flawed.
CUBAN: Charles, this is a perfect scenario for you. We have the best of all worlds now. This guy has stuck his own foot so far down this throat, he can't say or do anything. And to me, the best politician is the one that's incapable of doing anything, because they can't screw things up. So we have the best of all worlds right now. Leave him alone, because he can't mess anything up.
(APPLAUSE)
KAGAN: OK. But what about man to man? Both of you know what it feels like to be under fire. Mark, you're one of the most controversial owners in the NBA, and Charles, well, you're Charles.
BARKLEY: Well, first of all, Mark is not controversial. He's a terrific owner. He's great at what he does.
KAGAN: Yeah. You ask David Stern (ph) that, how controversial Mark Cuban is.
BARKLEY: But as far as us being controversial, we say stuff that other people are afraid to say.
KAGAN: Well absolutely. So you've said things that have come under fire. So what would you say to Trent Lott? How do you get out of this?
CUBAN: It's real easy. You don't tell him to get out of it. You tell him to pull the page from Newt Gingrich and go out on the speaker circuit and start making money some money. You know?
Forget about all this. You can't -- you know what, he's showed his stripes. Whether it was -- one of two things happened. Either 20 years ago he was pandering for votes and saying some nasty things to get the votes or he was showing who he truly is deep down inside. Whichever one it is, he's in a bad spot.
So just get away from it, go on with the rest of his life, write a book about why he's not a bad guy, go out and speak about why he's not a bad guy, and get on with your life. That's the advice I give him personally. But as a US citizen, I'm like, just keep on doing what you're doing, because you're good for America because he can't do squat anymore.
BARKLEY: And I think the main thing, no matter -- half of the people agree with him. It's unfortunate we live in a society where blacks and whites -- you know he was wrong. Because it's kind of like Strom Thurmond did win, because we're not like one big great country. We got blacks, we got whites, we got rich and poor, and we're not one great country.
That's unfortunately and sad, but Strom Thurmond did win in a way. So he was speaking the truth.
KAGAN: Hey guys, I want to pick up on a point that Kellyanne Conway was saying before the break, talking about how a lot of this has just turned into piling on, and just kind of gotten out of control. Spike Lee, the movie director, was on "Good Morning America" yesterday, and this is what he says of Trent Lott. He says, "The man is a card-carrying member of the Klan. He's got to go. He doesn't belong in the Senate. I know he has that closet robe in the closet somewhere. The hood and the robe."
CONWAY: God. That's not racist? That's the most racist remark I've heard all week.
BARKLEY: Wait. So segregation is not racist?
CONWAY: No, of course segregation is racist. But that is a very racist remark. Is Senator Lott -- is he -- yes or no, is he a card- carrying member of the Klan? Is he a member of...
BARKLEY: Is his voting record good for civil rights, though?
CONWAY: Yes or no? This was stated on national TV yesterday.
(CROSSTALK)
BARKLEY: Is his record for civil rights good or bad?
CUBAN: Spike Lee is a citizen speaking up how he feels about an elected official. You guys are speaking up pandering with an objective in mind, and you're a card-carrying -- you have a point -- you have an agenda.
CONWAY: Careful. You have no idea who I am. You have no idea anything about me.
CUBAN: Yeah, but you're trying to get an agenda across. You're not trying to prove...
CONWAY: What's the agenda?
CUBAN: The agenda is you're trying to defend your turf and you're trying to protect the turf of the Republican Party.
CONWAY: Wait a second. That was protected last month. We kicked everybody's butts in the election where it counted, and...
CUBAN: I hear a lot of objectivity. You're just completely objective, aren't you?
CONWAY: Wait a second. That is not true, sir. But let me back up because you don't know me or my agenda or any of that. So I'll forgive you that.
But, wait a second, since when in America, when someone seeks mercy and forgiveness, as has Trent Lott, and is (ph) he denied that, as he has been granted that mercy and forgiveness from luminaries in the African-American community, like Congressman John Lewis, who gave part of his physical well-being to the freedom ride in the 1960s...
CUBAN: You know what, he can get mercy when he's getting his political last rites. Before that, he was elected to do a job, and I wouldn't want someone like that representing me. Would you?
CONWAY: He's the majority leader of the Senate right now. He may not be in a couple weeks. I don't know. But let the process work itself out.
I don't understand. What was the greater threat to this country. And be honest for a moment. What was the greater threat to the immediate security and prosperity of this country, a president who lied under oath or someone who said something at someone's birthday party? Both of them made a tremendous error. One sought mercy and was given it by people like you.
CUBAN: What was the process he had to go through to get that mercy? What was the process. I seem to remember...
KAGAN: OK, Mark, Kellyanne, Charles and Cynthia, hold on a second. I told you guys at home this was going to be good. So we're going to keep it going. We'll take a little break and we'll continue this after this break. Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK): All right. We had to make a little bit of money there, but we want to keep this discussion going, because what's so interesting before the break, talking about Trent Lott. And also, comments from movie director Spike Lee.
And Charles, I want to bring you back in here again, as we look at these comments, one again, where he just flat out -- Spike Lee called Trent Lott "a card-carrying member of the KKK," which, by the way, is not true. Why is that? And is it OK for someone like Spike Lee, who really has nothing to do with the story to go on national television and slander the majority leader like that?
BARKLEY: Well, first of all, it has nothing to do with any of us, if you want to be quite honest. It has no bearing, except it might keep a couple of ladies' (ph) jobs of people here. It has no bearing for anybody (UNINTELLIGIBLE), this whole situation. For me, it's just a waste of time.
Until we understand that we got serious problems -- this is not a Democratic or Republican thing, or a conservative or liberal or moderate thing. We got serious problems in this country. And as long as people want to attack people and not accomplish anything, we're always going to have problems. We're not doing anything but making money for CNN and making other people get (UNINTELLIGIBLE), she's got to do her job; I respect that. But we're not accomplishing anything.
KAGAN: How about that, Kellyanne? Charles says we're just making you a little bit of coin today.
CONWAY: Well, I'm happy to poll for him any time he wants me to, since I grew up in the Philadelphia area. But, anyway, back to the topic. You know, there is a racist among us that should be dealt with. And it's a shame that so much of the heat and the light has been taken off of him because of this current unpleasantness with Trent Lott.
And his name is Saddam Hussein. Here's someone who has used weapons of mass destruction, gassed -- against minorities in his own country, the Kurds. And it's very important that we all try to -- I know it's a little bit more complex and difficult to focus on Iraq than trying to put a scalpel on the wall from the opposite party. But good lord, people. I mean, should we not have our attention focused on someone who has proven himself to be a racist and not above or below, as it were, using gas to extinguish a minority population within his own country?
KAGAN: Go ahead, Cynthia.
TUCKER: I would be happy to debate Kellyanne on Iraq any day, and I would be happy to reminder her that in the 1980s Saddam Hussein was our ally against Iran. And when he was using chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers, he had not only our implicit approval, but we gave him intelligence to help him know where to find them.
However, I'm not going to let her change the subject this easily. Because she keeps wanting to paint this as question of Democrats and liberals attacking Trent Lott.
CONWAY: I never said the word.
TUCKER: When the simple fact of the matter is, the harshest criticism in the beginning came from conservatives, who I assume were embarrassed by the comments that Trent Lott made and did not want him as a standard bearer for their party. Now...
CONWAY: Cynthia, I'm embarrassed, too.
(CROSSTALK)
TUCKER: Now if the US Senate decides that they want to be represented by Trent Lott, that is fine with me. But let us not forget that the earliest, harshest criticism came not from liberals or Democrats, but from other Republicans, which, by the way, I took as a good sign.
KAGAN: And with that...
CONWAY: Yeah, I'm among them. I'm among them. But the man deserves mercy if he has sought it. Anyone days.
KAGAN: Hold on guys, because it's time to let the ladies go. Because Kellyanne Conway and Cynthia Tucker need to go. So ladies, thank you. Coming up: it's just me and the guys.
Coming up next: I'll have a chance to ask Mark and Charles whether the national media is pushing too hard on a particular high school athlete. He's great. He's a great athlete, but can you believe how they're treating this kid? We're going to tell you about it and talk about it after this.
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KAGAN: OK. We're going to go ahead and keep it moving. A couple more stories we need to talk about and get to them very quickly, including black ownership of professional sports teams. Robert Johnson, the founder of BET, will be the first African-American to own a major sports team, to be a majority owner in a sports team, and he's due to become majority owner of Charlotte's new NBA expansion franchise.
First, though, I want to talk about LeBron James, the high school superstar. He's already been on the cover of "Sports Illustrated" and the focus of ESPN. His games are covered like the pros, broadcast on ESPN2. Is it all too much too soon?
First to Charles. Charles, take us to a 16 or 17-year-old Charles Barkley back in Lees (ph), Alabama. Any way you could have handled all this pressure?
BARKLEY: Well, I don't think so. And I just think ESPN crossed the line. When you start televising high school basketball games and the kids' games are on pay per view, I think that crosses the line. But sports are what they are. They're about money.
I mean, there's not a lot of stuff out there. It's just about money, and I guess everybody -- it's just that everybody understands that even more.
KAGAN: Do you feel sorry for him?
BARKLEY: Well, he's going to get something in return when he turns pro after this year. But I just don't think we should exploit these kids in high school. I mean, you can't show high school basketball on pay per view and ESPN. That's just not fair.
KAGAN: Mark, you know about running a sports business. They're agreeing with you here, Charles.
CUBAN: Well, I agree with Charles in that it's about money, but I think the person making the mistake is whoever's giving LeBron James advice. Whether it's his family or advisers. LeBron James should not be playing high school basketball.
KAGAN: He shouldn't be playing high school basketball?
CUBAN: He should not be playing. He should be in Europe, spending his senior year at some high school in Europe, where he could be playing in a French league making $5 million playing against great athletes, playing against much better basketball players.
KAGAN: You think he should be pro even before he can get into the NBA?
CUBAN: Amen. Amen. Forget the NBA. The NBA and the NCAA have so many archaic, stupid rules. His problem is you'll never know...
KAGAN: David Stern (ph) is on the phone.
CUBAN: It doesn't matter, because you'll never -- he'll never know until it's too late. And he has all these people who are pumping him up for their own advantage. If I were his dad or in his family I'd be saying, LeBron, you're going to an Italian league, a Yugoslavian league. You're going to make $3 million, you're going to go to school. You're not going to have to deal with all the stupid rules that keep you from practicing, all these things you have to go through. And you're going to find out just how good you are, and you're going to get paid to do it.
People won't be able to leverage you. You will be taking advantage of them. And then...
KAGAN: That's just amazing. So you're take the debate past should they skip college. You're saying, skip high school, just go to Europe.
CUBAN: Well, no. Hey, if I'm -- forget playing basketball. If I'm a high school senior and someone says, Mark, you want to finish up your senior year in Paris and see the sights and get a whole new experience in your life that you may never be able to experience again, I'm going say sign me up.
KAGAN: A whole new take.
I want to talk about Robert Johnson being an owner of the new team that's going to be in Charlotte. Charles, he beat out the group that Larry Byrd was representing trying to get the team there.
BARKLEY: Yeah, I think it's great. It's about time we had a black owner sports. But I have a problem with expansion. I don't think -- I think expansion is one of the worst thing that ever happened to sports. And that's why, if you look at all the sports, baseball, football and basketball, we have so many mediocre teams.
I'm glad the brother got the team. I wish he would have gotten another team. I mean, they don't support the Hawks. They need to move the Hawks to Charlotte. But I don't think -- we don't need expansion in basketball. We don't have enough -- we're winding down the product even more for the fans, and that's not right.
KAGAN: All right. Two different issues: expansion, but also minority ownership. Mark, what would be your advice to Robert Johnson...
CUBAN: I'll tell you exactly what I told him when I talked to him. I said, "Robert, I'm thrilled that you're in the league, but I wish you were buying an existing team, because I still may vote against the expansion." I want a team in Charlotte. I'm glad Robert Johnson's in the league. But I agree with Charles that we really shouldn't be expanding.
That said, if he gets an expansion team, and it's all his, I told him the best advice that he can ever get from me is do what you know already works in business. Don't listen to the NBA.
KAGAN: Well Mark, let me ask you this, to tie in our first topic. Do you think you can vote against expansion, against this team and not come off as racist? Because you'd be voting...
CUBAN: I don't care. I'll do the right thing. I'm not worried about -- I've already told Robert I want him in the league. I would prefer to see him buy an existing franchise.
I'm a partner in the NBA, and I've done a lot of homework on the issue. And I think it's my job as a partner to really make the right business move. And I think there are plenty, or will be plenty of opportunities over time, for Robert to get in if it doesn't happen to be an expansion. And I think there's a lot of different ways to get a team in Charlotte.
It's not easy. I'm not saying the NBA has an easy path to get a team to Charlotte. But good business decisions aren't always easy, and we shouldn't be taking the path of least resistance here.
KAGAN: Is there just not that opportunity for him to buy an existing team?
CUBAN: Well, there may or may not be. You know, there are always a lot of ancillary issues that go into buying a team, the stadium, the arena. And I don't know all the issues with each available team, or even if there are teams available. But, you know, our dye (ph) was cast when the NBA announced an expansion committee as opposed to an exploration committee. But that's just NBA 101, and I just don't agree with it.
KAGAN: Just for the record, though, the Mavs aren't for sale? That wouldn't be an opportunity.
CUBAN: No, not an opportunity.
KAGAN: No, not an opportunity. OK, Charles, you're not going anywhere. Mark, you stay with us. We need your opinion on an ethical dilemma from sports coming up. We'll ask you and ask also our audience who should have won the ball? It's been decided actually earlier today. Talking about the record-setting homerun ball from Barry Bonds. We'll take your calls and your e-mail after this.
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KAGAN: With our final couple minutes of the program, a big ethical question from sports. There has been a decision in the court fight over Barry Bonds' record-setting homerun baseball. Two men claimed it. Alex Popov, the man who initially caught it on the last day of the regular season last year, and Patrick Hayashi, the man who came up with the ball following a melee in the stands.
Today, a judge ruled both men are entitled to the ball. Therefore, he has ordered them to sell the ball and split the money. They're estimating it's going to go for about $1 million. Our audience seems to like that. Charles, real quick, what do you think should happen to that ball? Who deserves it?
BARKLEY: They should have dealt (ph) with that six months ago. By the time they paid the lawyer fees, neither one of them are going to get anything, and they don't deserve anything.
CUBAN: I agree.
KAGAN: And Mark, what do you think?
CUBAN: I agree. What a waste of taxpayers' money. They should have got their moms in the room and just figured it out like they were five-year-olds. OK, boys, just split it. And everybody's happy.
It's free money. It's found money. So the judge did the right thing.
KAGAN: And quickly to our viewers, first to the e-mail that we got, and let's see what the viewers said. "The ball should have gone right back to Barry Bonds. These men have taken the love out of the game and forgotten that they bought a game ticket, not a lottery ticket." Korey in Manitoba. That's going to be our last word of the day.
Our thanks to Charles Barkley and Mark Cuban. Gentlemen, you always making it interesting. Appreciate it. Thanks to all of you in the audience and all of you at home. I'm Daryn Kagan. Arthel will be right back here tomorrow.
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