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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Salt Lake Olympic Figure Skaters Speak Out; Interview With Ricky Williams
Aired December 23, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening.
Tonight: Just a couple of days before Christmas, we are going to unwrap some old favorites and some never yet aired.
Our look back includes some very serious issues about where schools cross the line when they're disciplining your children and another controversy which was ultimately settled. Remember the Canadian and Russian figure skaters from the last Olympics? We'll find out what they're up to. And we'll have a close-up interview with actor Stanley Tucci.
We start, though, with what happens after the holidays when you send your kids back to school. What are the rules for how their teachers enforce discipline? What should be the rules? Corporal punishment is legal in 23 states. And, as recently as five years ago, public schools reported 365,000 incidents of corporal punishment. That's a lot of kids.
So we asked CNN's Ed Lavandera to bring us the story of one of those kids.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VICKY WATERS: Bye. See you tomorrow.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jared Waters is looking forward to second grade at Harper Elementary School.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How you all doing?
LAVANDERA: A new teacher and a new classroom: His parents hope this new environment will help erase the memory of what happened in first grade.
V. WATERS: To see the look in his eye, and how embarrassed and how upset and how scared he was to go back there. They violated his trust and they violated our trust.
LAVANDERA: Last January, Jared was sitting in class taking a test. (on camera): So you're doing a spelling test and you say...
JARED WATERS, STUDENT: Boring.
LAVANDERA: The test was boring? And then the next thing you know?
JARED WATERS: Ended up in the principal's office getting a spanking.
LAVANDERA: Did you know that was going to happen?
JARED WATERS: No.
JOE WATERS, FATHER: You have those butterflies in your stomach when you drop him off.
LAVANDERA: The principal called Jared's father to explain what happened. Joe Waters was furious.
JOE WATERS: So, I couldn't believe what they had done. It just totally -- it appalled me in every manner possible.
LAVANDERA: When Jared got home, his father took a closer look. The family says the principal's swat left this bruise on Jared's leg.
JOE WATERS: If I would have done what they did, I probably wouldn't even have my kids anymore. They'd have taken them from me.
LAVANDERA: Harper school officials denied our request for an interview. But in a letter to the family, the school superintendent said the principal followed the policy and procedures of the Harper School District and that excessive force was not used.
Several months ago, Principal Jay Harper publicly stated his support of corporal punishment.
JAY HARPER, HARPER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL PRINCIPAL: I've never felt it's harmed a child. In fact, we're here to educate the kids and do what's best for that child.
LAVANDERA (on camera): Part of the reason Joe and Vicky Waters are so angry is because they say they asked the school not to paddle their child. On two different occasions, school officials had called, saying that Jared needed to be disciplined. Both times, they asked if they could use corporal punishment, and his parents told school officials that they were definitely not allowed to touch their child.
JOE WATERS: My rights as a parent were stomped on. Someone else had the right to say whether or not my son deserves a spanking and to go ahead and give it to him, without my knowledge or consent. It did violate me.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): Jared's discipline problems have now been connected to a severe case of attention deficit disorder. His parents say the spanking has had a lingering effect. Jared started wetting his bed again and he's scared of the principal.
V. WATERS: They aren't the ones that are here staying up all night with him. And they're not the ones that are telling him that everything is going to be OK. And they aren't the ones that have to look in his face every time we take him up there. And then he begs us not to leave him.
They just ended it. They didn't go any further. They didn't care. And I think that's what really bothers us, because it's something that bothers him today.
LAVANDERA (on camera): Jared, do you think you'll ever be able to forget that, what happened?
JARED WATERS: No, not in a million years.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): The irony is, Joe and Vicky Waters used to spank their children every once in a while. But now they say they've learned a valuable lesson: Physical punishment might be quicker and easier, they say, but teaching discipline is a lesson that will last a lifetime.
Ed Lavandera, CNN, Harper, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now are two people with personal experience in this area.
Robert Fathman started the National Coalition to Abolish Corporal Punishment after his then 6-year-old daughter was paddled with a thick board, even after he told the school not to touch her. He joins us from Columbus, Ohio; in Nashville, Tennessee, former principal and teacher Anne Whitefield, who used corporal punishment on her students during her 38-year career. She's now an assistant professor of education at Cumberland University.
Thank you both for being with us.
Ms. Whitefield, you just heard this little boy say that he's not going to forget it in a million years. And it had obviously a profound effect on him. He was wetting his bed again. His mother was really upset about it. It obviously caused an emotional trauma for him. So how can you possibly justify hitting him?
Yes, we can't -- Ms. Whitefield, we can't hear you. So we're going to try and correct that. And I will -- oh, now I hear you.
Go ahead. Do you want to try again?
ANNE WHITEFIELD, FORMER TEACHER: Right.
I think we need to be fairly specific about corporal punishment and about spankings and about when they are used and how they are used. And as a parent of several children and a grandparent, I think that parents need to be a part of the decision. And...
CHUNG: Well, in that particular case, his parents told the school, "No, we don't want corporal punishment when it comes to our child."
WHITEFIELD: Well, and I can't speak for that principal's behavior after that. So let me be clear about that.
I can say to you that I think that spankings applied appropriately, with proper planning, and with understanding are a part of disciplinary policies and practices that help children understand where boundaries are and help define behavior and how they should behave.
CHUNG: All right, let me turn to Mr. Fathman.
Mr. Fathman, couldn't you look at Jared's example and say to yourself: "Well, here's an example in which he says he won't forget it in a million years. He learned his lesson. This boy is not going to say that a test is boring the next time he takes a spelling test"?
ROBERT FATHMAN, NATIONAL COALITION TO ABOLISH CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: It's the wrong kind of lesson that we are teaching children with that, Connie.
Those are not the memories of their childhood, the memories of their school experiences that we want to have our children remember. And I wouldn't call it a spanking. When you take a board like this, that is a paddle actually used in Ohio schools for many years, and you hit a child like that, that's not a spanking. Webster's defines spanking as hitting with a hand. That's an act of violence.
And we don't want children to remember that. We don't want children to have those kinds of lessons in how to handle disagreements with people.
CHUNG: Ms. Whitefield, I think that sounds awfully reasonable. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who are parents who would agree with Mr. Fathman.
Aren't you, if you support corporal punishment, as you do, telling kids, "If somebody does something wrong, it's OK if you hit that person; it's OK if you are violent against that person"?
WHITEFIELD: Well, I think to equate a spanking with violence is a misconception. Mother Nature...
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: But look at the paddle that this Mr. Fathman was using.
WHITEFIELD: I'm sorry. I...
CHUNG: You can't see him, can you?
WHITEFIELD: No, I cannot. CHUNG: Oh, but you know what the big paddles look like. You had them there in your state as well, didn't you?
WHITEFIELD: I did not have a big paddle. I had a ping-pong paddle. And I can't see what the gentlemen is holding up. So, unfortunately, I'm at a disadvantage there.
CHUNG: But what do you have to say about the whole idea of basically promoting hitting?
WHITEFIELD: Well, a spanking applied at the appropriate time is a consequence of certain behaviors.
FATHMAN: You know, hitting is hitting. I don't care what you call it, spanking, whatever.
But if the superintendent hit a teacher, we wouldn't call it spanking applied at an appropriate time. We'd call it assault and you would own the superintendent's cars, his pension plan. If your dean hits you at Cumberland College, you would call that assault. If we did this to a dog, we would call it cruelty to animals.
How can you call this something appropriately applied when we hit a child with a 2-foot-long board?
CHUNG: Ms. Whitefield?
WHITEFIELD: Well, first of all, I'd like to say that I'd like for us to take turns here.
And, secondly, I think that, as adults in this world, we have to own our responsibility of helping to shape and mold the behavior of children. That's why tall people were put in charge of short people. And we use a variety...
CHUNG: Wait a minute. Let me hear that again. You said tall people are put in charge of short people. And you just mean adults are in charge of kids.
WHITEFIELD: Adults and parents and teachers and guardians are folks who are supposed to give direction and guidance to children to help them develop into responsible people.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Well, even the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that corporal punishment be eliminated in all these states.
FATHMAN: And so does the American Association of Elementary School Principals.
CHUNG: All right, let me just say one thing to you, Mr. Fathman. Isn't there any use or value in some type of corporal punishment? Because, obviously, you have not been a teacher, correct? So how...
FATHMAN: No, but my wife is a teacher. CHUNG: All right.
How can you maintain discipline in a classroom? Don't you need something, because some classrooms really are out of control?
FATHMAN: Oh, discipline doesn't mean punishment and it doesn't mean hitting.
Certainly, we all believe in discipline in the classroom. And we have models. We have teachers in 27 states successfully educating children without hitting them. In fact, the U.S. is one of only three democracies in the world where it's still legal to hit children. We can have good discipline without hitting.
CHUNG: All right, Ms. Whitefield -- I need to go back to her for a final word.
Ms. Whitefield, you still stand by corporal punishment, don't you, after all these years?
WHITEFIELD: Yes, I do.
CHUNG: In today's world, you still do?
WHITEFIELD: Yes, I do. I certainly do.
CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, both of you, for being with us. We appreciate it.
FATHMAN: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: We'll be back in a moment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: An issue that continues to be debated today.
And when we come back: Corporal punishment isn't the only issue parents have to confront. Kids face other threats in and outside the school. How to keep them safe?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: This summer, if you recall, became known as the summer of the missing child. Statistically, there was no rise in the number of child abductions, but the details of the cases and the media attention put the issue at the forefront. And though the attention has waned, the problem is still a real one.
So, before the winter break is over, we wanted to give you a chance to see our discussion with J.J. Bittenbinder, a detective in the Cook County sheriff's office. And we'll also meet his unofficial deputy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: J.J., what's the biggest mistake parents make?
J.J. BITTENBINDER, PERSONAL SAFETY CONSULTANT: Not talking to their children and telling them they have a problem. You have got to talk to your children and tell them that strangers are not allowed in your home, around your children. And you talk to them in a school situation.
The whole class hears it. And then you take them home and you reinforce it. But if you just take your finger and wiggle it at the child and say, you know you can't do this, the child is going to rebel. But if everybody gets the same message at the same time, everybody is on the same page.
CHUNG: You know, I've always heard that you should fingerprint the child. But that sounds -- I don't know -- it doesn't sound like something I would do with my son.
BITTENBINDER: Well, first of all, you can do that. You can go to the police department and they'll fingerprint your child and they'll give you the set of fingerprints if you want to do that. But it's very important to have a picture of your child, so that you would be able to put that in the newspaper if the child was abducted.
But the smart thing to do is make sure your child is not abducted. And there's three rules to teach you to do that. And the first rule is, if the child is approached either by somebody in a vehicle or somebody on foot, the child yells, "Stranger!" as loud as the child can get, because the word stranger is the only word that says the man dragging this kid into the car is not his father, and stranger is the only word that will get every adult to look over there. Every parent for sure, and maybe we can save one.
The second rule is, I want the children to stay together. You know? Over 90 percent of all these abductions, they take one child. Rarely two and never three. So if the children are in a group, they're a lot tougher.
And I want them to run. That's a third rule. Run as a group. Not in separate directions, but as one group. Stay together in that group.
CHUNG: All right, J.J., if your child is grabbed by the stranger, what should he do?
BITTENBINDER: Well, it all depends. We'll show you how this works. If the child is going to and from school and he's got that book bag on, you want the child to run always.
But before you want him to run, you tell him to drop the books. So if this guy comes up and he's going to grab the child, and the child drops the books, all we've got here is this book bag. That's all we've got. And he's not after this kid for the book bag. That's not what he's here for. He wanted that kid, but he didn't get him. Now, if the kid is just wearing a jacket or a sweater or something, and he reaches for the kid, and the kids comes right out of the sweater or the jacket, he's standing here with this coat and that's all he got. The kid got away. There is nothing that anybody can put on their body that is worth getting sexually assaulted for.
So whether it's the books or the clothes or whatever, he starts to scream. And he has to start to scream. And he has to get other people involved. Otherwise he's going to have to deal with it by himself, and that's not fair.
CHUNG: But J.J., if this man or whoever it is, is a lot larger than the child is...
BITTENBINDER: It's a man.
CHUNG: All right -- and grabs this child from the back, what should the child do?
BITTENBINDER: You've got -- you've got to spin around. Come on over here, young man.
You have got to spin around. And if he grabs this kid, he should just run around and spin and not give up and don't let me get a hold of him. If he breaks away from me, you can't catch a 9-year-old, there's no way you can do it. Because a 9-year-old can make those real sharp turns and they're are going to get away. They really are going to get away. But say he gets him...
CHUNG: Yes.
BITTENBINDER: And he's going to try to stuff him in the car.
CHUNG: Right.
BITTENBINDER: If he gets him and he's going to try to stick him in the car, well, the kid never stops fighting. He fights all the way into the car, and I shove him into the car, and he honks the horn. Before I can get him, he's out the door.
CHUNG: Right.
BITTENBINDER: Now -- he's never stop fighting. He can't stop fighting, because if they get into the car, they're not going to be back. That happens to many, many people. We find bodies in the woods in the forest preserve all across this nation every week. Men, women and children, and none of those people were walking through those forest preserves when they were attacked. They were brought there, and they were brought there in a car. You can't get into the car. If you get into the car, you're not going to be back.
CHUNG: But J.J., what if the other door is locked in the front and the child can't open the door and get himself out?
BITTENBINDER: Well, what he can do is jump into the back seat and go out the back on the other side, the passenger side back. Now, I don't want the kid to jump out while the car is moving. You wait for a red light or a stop sign or something. If the kid is put into the trunk there is no possibility. This kid has got serious problems. They should fight all the way. They should scream and holler and make sure that we get involved. By we I don't mean just the police, I mean everybody, every citizen, and we've all got to do this together. We're all part of the group.
CHUNG: Well, if the child is able to roll the window down, what should he yell, again?
BITTENBINDER: He should be yelling, "stranger, help, call the police, this is not my father." Just screaming and screaming and screaming.
CHUNG: All right. And what happens...
BITTENBINDER: You've got to get somebody else involved.
CHUNG: And what happens if the man comes up to him -- I've always heard the mom or the dad should agree with the child what a special password is, because these people are very clever and they'll come up and say, "my mom told me to pick you up."
BITTENBINDER: Some of the lures are, you know, your mother has been in an accident, you know, and I'm supposed to bring you to the hospital, or I'm supposed to take you to your father because your mother went to your father -- they'll come up with something. And the child should immediately say, "what's the password?" Now, while the child is talking, he should be backing up, because right away the flag is up here. We know that this could be a problem.
And if the guy says, well, I forgot it or I left it in the car, come here, I'll read it to you. No, no, the kid is gone. The kid is gone. Passwords are very important.
CHUNG: All right. And there is one other thing that I've heard about, and that is if the child is chewing chewing gum, they can stick it in the ignition of the car. Now, to me that sounds very difficult.
BITTENBINDER: That's not something that the child should do. I don't want the child to spend any effort at all trying to disable his car. I want the child to spend all of his effort getting out of the car and getting away from this man, because if he doesn't do it, he's in for a very, very bad time.
CHUNG: All right. J.J. Bittenbinder, thank you so much for being with us.
BITTENBINDER: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Important information that could some day save a life.
And still ahead: a charmed life as a sports hero to millions, what was the secret curse that haunted him? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Being a big, tough, pro football player doesn't make you immune to the same fears and worries the rest of us are susceptible to.
This summer, 1998 Heisman Trophy winner Ricky Williams, who went on to play with the New Orleans Saints and now with the Miami Dolphins, revealed his. He has social anxiety disorder.
In our recent interview, which is airing now for the first time, we talked about what that has meant for him and how he struggled with it.
We'll get to that in a moment, after Larry Smith brings us up-to- date on Ricky Williams' career.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY SMITH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ricky Williams once lived a charmed football life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's at the 20, and he cuts back at the 10, five, dives for the end zone. Touchdown, Texans. Ricky Williams has the record!
SMITH: In 1998, during his senior season at the University of Texas, Williams became the NCAA's Division One all-time leading rusher and went on to win the Heisman Trophy as college football's best player. He was the toast of Austin. But when Williams left campus, he entered a world of impossible expectations.
The New Orleans Saints and then head coach Mike Ditka traded away all of their 1999 draft choices in order to secure Williams with the fifth overall pick. He was immediately hailed as the savior of an organization that had never won a playoff game.
MIKE DITKA, HEAD COACH, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS: I hope you all understand why we got Ricky, because I'm going to say it and I'm going to say it loud. And I want everybody to hear it. We're going to win the Super Bowl.
SMITH: Williams' bumpy NFL ride began when he hired rap artist Master P to help him negotiate an ill-conceived, incentive-laden contract. A series of injuries limited him to 12 games and just two touchdowns during his rookie season. The team finished 3-13 and Ditka was fired.
Off the field, Williams was seen as oddly aloof and reclusive, often refusing to remove his helmet during interviews. He did little to endear himself to Saints fans, either. In a "Sports Illustrated" article, he said New Orleans was not a good place to work and live and even suggested that the team ought to move to San Antonio. The team stayed put. But, despite strong seasons in 2000 and 2001, Williams did not. In March, Williams was traded to the Miami Dolphins, where he has enjoyed a personal renaissance this season, rushing for more than 100 yards each of his first three games. Though he may never achieve as a pro what he did as a collegiate, Williams is playing with a newfound enthusiasm for the game that has expected so much of him.
I'm Larry Smith.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Take me back to the night that you won the Heisman Trophy. It should have been one of the greatest celebrations for you of all time. And yet it turned into a terrifying night. What happened?
RICKY WILLIAMS, NFL PLAYER: Well, at the time, I was very shy about speaking in front of large groups. And, of course, when you win the Heisman drove, you get up in front of the nation and you have to give a little speech. It was just nerve-racking because I was so nervous. It was hard for me to enjoy the whole experience.
CHUNG: When did you think to yourself, my shyness is more than just shyness; I think I might have a problem?
WILLIAMS: It was more of the fact that I was 22 years old. I had all the money I ever wanted. I was doing what I dreamed of doing and I wasn't happy.
Looking at relationships in my life, I saw that I wasn't doing my part and I wasn't a good friend. I wasn't a good son. I wasn't a good brother. And I didn't like myself very much. And I went to talk to someone and came to find out that all of this depression that I was feeling was from social anxiety disorder, meaning that I was just excessively shy.
So, I kind of went the backdoor and realized what was going on, because, when you have social anxiety disorder, there's a lot of things that normal people usually do, like go to the grocery store and do little things like that that I really didn't want to do. So, I would ask my mom to do it, my sister to do it, my friends to do it. And that put a really big strain on our relationships.
CHUNG: Had you ever heard of social anxiety disorder before?
WILLIAMS: Never.
I just -- the first time I heard about it was talking to my therapist. And then, later on, I saw a commercial about it. And that's when I really started to do some more research and see that it really was me.
CHUNG: What other symptoms were you experiencing? WILLIAMS: Well, the biggest thing was just not wanting to go anywhere. I would stay in my house all the time.
And, as a professional athlete, you have a lot of opportunities to travel around the country and make a lot of money doing appearances and doing things like that. And I would agree to do those certain things. But, as the events got closer, I would start to get really nervous and really shy and I would end up flaking out. And I really earned a bad reputation that way.
CHUNG: When can you figure out whether or not it's just sort of normal behavior and when you are actually suffering from social anxiety disorder?
WILLIAMS: Well, I've been shy my whole life.
So, when I started to experience and do certain things that people would tell me, I would just say: You know what? I'm just shy. And time went on and I kept saying: That's just me. I've just always been shy.
And it just started to build up, things that I was doing that I looked at and I said: You know what? This isn't really me. And I went through treatment. And I was on Paxil for a little over a year.
CHUNG: Is that an antidepressant?
WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes.
And now, looking back, it's when people around you start to notice that you're being a little bit too shy.
CHUNG: I would see you doing interviews and you'd have your helmet on. You'd be looking down. You wouldn't have eye contact. And people thought that you were actually just sort of dissing other people.
WILLIAMS: I wasn't.
It's just, at that point in time, I didn't feel that I deserved the attention I was getting. And I was sitting there and the media would be putting their microphones and their cameras in my face. And I didn't feel comfortable. So, I felt like not making eye contact and wearing a helmet kind of put some distance between me and the media. But I look back now and I say, yes, something was definitely wrong.
CHUNG: Well, people were calling you weird, aloof and a flake.
WILLIAMS: That was tough for me to deal with, because I didn't look at myself that way. I've always been a nice guy. And I've always done what I was supposed to do. So, when I would hear those things, instead of looking and seeing what's wrong, I kind of rebelled against it.
CHUNG: It hurt your career, didn't it? WILLIAMS: Well, at the time, it did hurt my career. But after all is said and done, I'm here in Miami. I love it here. I think, if I look back and I say, then, it hurt my career. But I look at where I am now. And without going through those things, I wouldn't be where I am now.
CHUNG: Are you still on medication?
WILLIAMS: No, no. Not anymore.
CHUNG: You were able to wean yourself off of it and just adjust yourself psychologically?
WILLIAMS: That's the key.
A lot of people will just get on medication and think that that's enough. But people need therapy. And going through therapy with the medication, I kind of changed the way that I looked at things and the way I thought. And I got more of a realistic perspective on life and what I was going through. And it makes it so much easier for me on a daily basis to go through the things that professional athletes have to go through.
When I first was diagnosed with social anxiety disorder, it was kind of tough, you know? I had to go to work the next day and face all the guys on the team in the locker room. And I was really nervous about how they'd react to it. And everyone was very understanding. And going through this and talking about it more and more, I've become more comfortable, because I see that a lot of people experience the same kind of anxiety and I'm not alone.
And I think me talking about it helps people realize that you're not weird. It's very, very normal to feel anxious sometimes.
I have a Web site, Run-Ricky-Run.com. And I get a lot of e-mail about people who I've helped. And I would say I've helped thousands of people deal with this and feel better about themselves. So, the fact that I know that me talking is making a big difference makes it really easy for me.
CHUNG: There are something like 10 million people who suffer from it?
WILLIAMS: Yes, between five and 10 million people in this country.
CHUNG: Which is amazing.
So, what advice would you have for others out there who suffer from social anxiety disorder?
WILLIAMS: Well, the biggest thing is, don't be ashamed.
Like we said, it's very normal. And don't be afraid to go and talk to someone, because I'm telling you, my life has changed so much in the past year and the past two years, you know? I went from ready to give up football and do something else to playing here on a great football team and having a chance to play for the Super Bowl.
So, it's just made a big difference in my life. So, don't be ashamed and definitely talk to someone.
CHUNG: So now, when you walk into a crowded room and everybody's going, "That's Ricky Williams..."
WILLIAMS: I definitely embrace it now, instead of run from it.
CHUNG: Ricky, thank you so much for being with us.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: The Web site again is Run-Ricky-Run.com.
And he recently posted a message about an opposing player who mocked him for what he said about social anxiety disorder. Well, fortunately, not everyone is so sick.
Stay with us for some very different athletes and a very different sport: the Olympic gold medal skaters, the Russians and the Canadians.
Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Do you remember Jamie Sale and David Pelletier? They gave an unforgettable performance at the Olympics and then the judges turned in an unforgettable performance of their own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): February 11, 2002, the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, the pairs skating competition becomes the unlikely site of international controversy. After a crowd-pleasing, seemingly flawless performance, boos rang out when the Canadian pair of Jamie Sale and David Pelletier received lower-than-expected scores.
And despite an imperfect performance, the Russian pair, Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze win a 5-4 judge's decision and take the gold medal.
ELENA BEREZHNAYA, GOLD MEDAL WINNER: Somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. And that's the rules. I don't know. There's just one gold medal.
DAVID PELLETIER, GOLD MEDAL WINNER: You can argue all your life about what happened that night, but you cannot argue against the fact that there was something going on with the judges.
CHUNG: But the controversy is just beginning. In Canada, Moscow and worldwide, the scandal is front-page news. JAMIE SALE, GOLD MEDAL WINNER: Everything always comes out in the wash. And we had the same response all along. And we just did our job at the Olympics. We did the best that we could.
CHUNG: Reports of collusion and vote-swapping among judges.
PELLETIER: Wherever there's power, wherever there's money involved, there's always some bad people around.
CHUNG: The result? A compromise solution. For one of the few times in Olympic competition and the first time in Olympic figure skating, both pairs teams win the gold. No silver medal is awarded.
Today, the Canadian team has gone professional. The Russian team is keeping the door open for a possible Olympic return. But for now, the four skaters share the same ice at ice shows. This time, there are no judges. They're only competing for applause.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: All four of them are with me now: Jamie and David, Elena and Anton.
Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.
Now, after the Salt Lake Olympics, everyone seems to think that the four of you will be linked forever. What do you think?
Jamie?
SALE: Well, I think that we definitely are linked, obviously, by the history books. But, as far as the skating goes, everybody remembers both of our great performances at the Olympics. And we are two totally different pair teams. And we hope that people will remember us for our individual skates at the Olympics.
CHUNG: I think they will.
How would you describe your relationship? All of you skaters are so gracious. I think, even if you did hate each other, you wouldn't say so, right?
Anton?
ANTON SIKHARULIDZE, GOLD MEDAL WINNER: We've been friends even before the Olympics Games. And we know each other many years. And we've always been friendly. And now I think we're more friendly than it was before, because we spend more time together and working together.
And I look forward to be even more friendly with the guys than now, because it's cool and we are skating in the same ice shows.
CHUNG: I guess the positive out of what happened was that judging will change, that the scoring system will change. For instance, if it's a triple toe loop and that has a base score of 4.5, a perfect one...
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: This is amusing, isn't it?
SALE: You know what?
(CROSSTALK)
SALE: ... have to worry about it.
You know what? Honestly, it's really complicated for everybody. And I think that, when you've got judges involved, it's always going to be somewhat subjective. And everybody's got their favorite or somebody that they like more, or whatever. And it's been there since the beginning. And I think it will always be there.
But we all love our sport very, very much. And we just hope for the best. And we hope that it works out.
CHUNG: David, you were quoted as saying at one point, "I want my life back." Why did you and Jamie decide to basically not do what other skaters have done? And that is to capitalize on the celebrity.
PELLETIER: There's a few reasons. First, as soon as we're finished our program, the long program at the Olympics, that was the best moment. And, to be honest, as soon as we got off, we lost kind of control of our lives. And everything went so fast. And we decided to go home.
And it's not really true that we turn our back to our endorsement. Really, we had some great deals after the Olympics. We just didn't tour. You know, sometimes, you have to remember what got you there. And it's our skating. And now we are just looking forward to skate again.
CHUNG: Did you find all the celebrity a bit either overwhelming or actually annoying in some way?
Jamie?
SALE: Oh, it's never annoying.
I think the hardest thing, like David, said, for us, was the fact that we were still Jamie and David. And we just went to the Olympics and did our job. And our lives really did change instantly.
CHUNG: Would you allow me to ask a personal question, whether or not you and...
SALE: It depends.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Whether you and David -- what do you think -- do you think you and David will get married, have children? (LAUGHTER)
SALE: Tell me about your relationship. We haven't heard much about you, lately.
CHUNG: I'm married.
SALE: No, I know who you're married to.
CHUNG: You do?
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: And we have a little boy. And he's 7 years old.
SALE: Oh, wow.
Well, that's definitely a plan.
PELLETIER: Is it?
(LAUGHTER)
SALE: No, I mean, in the future, it's not...
PELLETIER: We're the best of friends.
SALE: In a little bit.
PELLETIER: So far, yes, if it happens, great.
SALE: She's recommending kids and everything.
(CROSSTALK)
PELLETIER: Oh, yes. I want to have at least five, so I can have my hockey line.
SALE: Oh, yes, right.
PELLETIER: And they're all going to the Olympics in hockey this time, not in figure skating.
SALE: But right now, we're enjoying everything. And we're good friends. And that's the way it is for now. Don't worry. We'll let you know.
CHUNG: Anton and Elena, you're not a couple, right?
SIKHARULIDZE: No.
CHUNG: So, do you have significant others back home?
SIKHARULIDZE: Well, I think it's supposed to be back home, not here.
CHUNG: Oh.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Well, excuse me.
Elena?
BEREZHNAYA: I can say nothing right now also.
CHUNG: Do the significant others get jealous of the close relationship that you have with your partner?
SALE: I think it's hard. It must be really, really hard, because, obviously, you have to have some kind of connection, chemistry and rapport with each other. And to watch your significant other doing that with someone else must be really difficult.
I think you have to go into a relationship knowing that there has to be a lot of respect and trust. And that's just the way it is.
CHUNG: Jamie, are you going to miss the thrill of competition?
SALE: You know what I'm going to miss, actually, the most is the feeling I always had. Even though, when I was skating and competing, I used to tell myself, why am I doing this to myself, because you feel almost like you're going to be sick.
But I miss the adrenaline. And I'm going to miss competing. But what I liked the most about skating was performing. And now that's all I have to do. And it's so much more fun.
CHUNG: Thank you so much for being with us. I really enjoyed talking to you. I want to hear progress reports on your personal lives and your professional lives, all right?
SALE: OK.
PELLETIER: Thank you.
CHUNG: Thank you, Jamie and David, Elena and Anton.
SALE: Thanks a lot, Connie.
CHUNG: Thanks for being with us.
SIKHARULIDZE: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Still ahead: wrapping up his latest run on Broadway, actor Stanley Tucci.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: This weekend marks the final performance of Stanley Tucci's critically-acclaimed run on Broadway in "Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune."
Thanks to the hit play, he's gotten to go to bed -- well, sort of -- you know what I mean -- with co-star Edie Falco eight times a week. You know Edie Falco. She is also Mrs. Tony Soprano, not too shabby, considering he's also worked with stars such as Jennifer Lopez and Isabella Rossellini as I found out when I went to see "Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune," he's even been dropping my name.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "FRANKIE AND JOHNNY IN THE CLAIR DE LUNE")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, guys, that Frankie put her finger in your ear.
STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR: No. See, that is just about the last thing in the entire world that I would ever do about tonight, talk about it to anybody, especially those animals at work. You really don't know me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wouldn't be the first time one of the guys yack yack yack about it.
TUCCI: Yes, but women yack too. No ketchup.
(CROSSTALK)
TUCCI: But all yacking is dumb. I slept with this one. Oh yes? Well, I slept with Connie Chung. Oh big f-ing, pardon my French.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: You slept with me? I, obviously, don't remember it as a momentous...
TUCCI: Well, I remember it very fondly.
CHUNG: You do?
TUCCI: Yes.
CHUNG: When I was at the play last Sunday, and I heard my name, I went, Whoa! Turned around...
TUCCI: I didn't know you were there that day, I...
CHUNG: Yes, you didn't, otherwise maybe you would have changed the name.
TUCCI: I don't know what I would have said.
CHUNG: Was that originally in the text, in McNally's script? TUCCI: It wasn't -- he updated it. I don't remember what it was originally, now. But, your name came up. I remember when Terrence just said, Connie Chung. Connie Chung? OK.
CHUNG: You didn't have to go, Connie Chung.
TUCCI: It was a good thing. It was a good thing.
CHUNG: OK. Now, honestly, you know, I don't think I'm prudish. I really don't. But when I saw you totally naked...
TUCCI: Yes.
CHUNG: ... and even walking around a little bit, and it wasn't that dark -- I mean, I was on the wrong side of the stage, though, and I kept going, I can't see.
TUCCI: Thanks a lot.
CHUNG: No, no, no. I didn't mean that personally either.
TUCCI: No, I'm only kidding.
CHUNG: But you and Edie Falco are just the full Monty. How can you do that?
TUCCI: Oh, it's easy.
CHUNG: Is it?
TUCCI: Well, you know, we get paid for it.
CHUNG: Yes. So, I mean...
TUCCI: No, it's not. The first performance was scary...
CHUNG: Right.
TUCCI: ... to say the least.
CHUNG: OK.
TUCCI: And rehearsals were even scarier -- I mean, we actually didn't really do it in rehearsal. We just -- it was at a dress rehearsal...
CHUNG: But you didn't do it during the play, either.
TUCCI: No, we didn't do it in the play.
CHUNG: We should tell them in the very beginning of the play, you are actually making love with Edie Falco.
TUCCI: Yes, we simulate lovemaking for about, I don't know, a minute and a half or something.
CHUNG: It seems like an eternity.
TUCCI: Does it really?
CHUNG: Yes.
TUCCI: How is that? I mean, I have never seen it, so I'm assuming that -- I have been told that it's tastefully presented, which makes one feel more comfortable.
CHUNG: Yes.
TUCCI: And I can feel the lights come up slowly as the lovemaking progresses, and finally when we finish, there is a fair amount of play and then she starts to turn lights on, and changes.
CHUNG: And she puts on a robe...
TUCCI: And she puts on a robe, and I stayed...
CHUNG: Naked.
TUCCI: ... naked for a while.
CHUNG: Yes. You are in great shape.
TUCCI: Oh, thanks. Thanks.
CHUNG: You work out, no doubt.
TUCCI: Thanks. Yes. Yes.
CHUNG: I made certain assumptions about you, so I'm going to utter them and you tell me if I'm correct.
TUCCI: OK.
CHUNG: I mean, it's just what I feel, because I don't know, and I've read a lot about you, but these things do not emerge from what I read.
TUCCI: OK. All right.
CHUNG: Very smart.
TUCCI: So right. You're dead on, in fact.
CHUNG: Even intellectual.
TUCCI: I would say no. No.
CHUNG: Obsessively compulsively neat.
TUCCI: Yes. I would say that, yes.
CHUNG: See, I knew that, right?
TUCCI: That's true. Yes. Yes.
CHUNG: I could tell by the way you were putting -- moving things around on the stage.
TUCCI: Yes. I wish I had more to do on the stage, actually, as far as objects go.
CHUNG: To occupy you?
TUCCI: Yes. Yes.
CHUNG: Someone who can cook and loves to cook.
TUCCI: Yes. Yes.
CHUNG: And then also, you directed and produced that wonderful movie "Big Night."
TUCCI: "Big Night," yes.
CHUNG: It was a gastronomical success.
TUCCI: It was, it was, it was, yes. I even went into a post- prandial depression after that movie.
CHUNG: You have done so many movies -- you have got one coming out called "Maid in Manhattan."
TUCCI: "Maid in Manhattan," yes.
CHUNG: And that "maid" is M-A-I-D.
TUCCI: Yes it is, yes it is.
CHUNG: I just have one gossipy question to ask you, all right?
TUCCI: I don't know.
CHUNG: Was Jennifer Lopez around, and Ben Affleck, was he around?
TUCCI: I never saw Ben Affleck and that's the God's honest truth. Nor did I see Kim out.
CHUNG: All right.
There are so many actors and actresses who have favorite charities but -- and sometimes I wince a little when they start talking about it, but honestly, I know you love yours. I want you to tell me about it. It's called Canstruction?
TUCCI: Yes, I love this thing. I've been involved in this for about five years. Design and architectural firms -- major design and architectural firms in the city put together what are called canstructions, which are these structures that are...
CHUNG: Actually made out of cans.
TUCCI: Actually made out of cans of food that are basically sculptures, for all practical purposes, OK? And they have very strict guidelines. They have to work within a 10 by 10 by 8 space. They can use only tape, rubber bands and cardboard to hold these structures together.
CHUNG: Oh that's great.
TUCCI: They have to use the labels. The labels have to remain intact and basically it's tens of thousands of cans. All of these structures are then judged by...
CHUNG: You.
TUCCI: ...other designers and architects and myself and these other celebrities and at the end, all of this food gets distributed to hungry people in New York, of which there are, I think, 1.5 million, I think is the statistic, 500,000 of them being children.
CHUNG: This is annually?
TUCCI: This is annually, so it happens every year and it's taking place now in 50 cities across the country. It's an extraordinary event. And it's -- not only is it an incredibly important thing, I think, to do, particularly in this day and age, but it's really enjoyable and to see what these really mind comes up with, it's pretty fascinating.
CHUNG: Terrific.
TUCCI: Yes.
CHUNG: Stanley, thank you so much for being with us.
TUCCI: Thank you. Thank you.
CHUNG: And I loved seeing you in that play. I mean really seeing you. It was a good thing.
TUCCI: Yes. Yes. I'm glad. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
CHUNG: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: And, as Stanley Tucci and Edie Falco say goodbye to "Frankie and Johnny," another "Sopranos" veteran is saying hello. Stanley's role is being taken over by Joe Pantoliano.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow: Are you toting presents home in that big honking SUV? Should you be? We'll have a debate. And coming up next: "LARRY KING LIVE."
And we'll see you tomorrow. Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, have a good night.
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