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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
What Lies Ahead For America's Young Defenders?
Aired December 24, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening.
On this Christmas Eve, we're going to revisit a controversy that arose over a poem about September 11. But we're also going to look back at our humorous, but also touching visit with the captain of the Enterprise and his third mate.
We are going to start off, though, with a look at the future, the future of America, and the future of America's defenders. The National Geographic Channel recently went inside America's most famous military academy to tell the story of "Surviving West Point." And we spoke with three of the cadets whose stories they told.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now to discuss "Surviving West Point" are cadets Ingrid Zegada-Frias, David Veney, and Mike Destefano.
Thank you very much for being with us.
Ingrid, let's start with you. You actually had military in your family. Your grandfather was a general. And you had other members of your family who were parts of the military.
Now, this is a very regimented and -- as I view it, you enjoy some level of lack of freedom in this career and in this life at West Point. Is this something that you dreamed of?
INGRID ZEGADA-FRIAS, THIRD-CLASS CADET, WEST POINT: It wasn't something like, since I was little, I always wanted to go to West Point, I always wanted to be in the military. It was kind of something new.
CHUNG: So, what happened?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: It was kind of in high school. You're trying to think about colleges and where to go. And one day, they were just like, there's a military academy day in D.C. And my mom went. I couldn't go. I had SAT classes. But my mom went and she just fell in love with everything.
CHUNG: She did? ZEGADA-FRIAS: She did.
CHUNG: And I know your brother tried to get in, but he didn't make it. Is it something that he really wanted?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: He wanted it as well. And that's kind of what first got us into just thinking about West Point in general. But, yes, he wasn't accepted in the end.
CHUNG: All right.
So, David, this was no mystery to you, because your father had gone to West Point and even taught there. But he was afraid that you were going there just because of him.
DAVID VENEY, THIRD-CLASS CADET, WEST POINT: The truth is, I wanted to go for myself. West Point is about leadership. It's about teamwork, working with other people. That's what I really came for. And it's a great place to do it.
CHUNG: Now, you're in your second year.
VENEY: Yes, ma'am.
CHUNG: Which means you were screamed at a lot the first year.
VENEY: Yes, I was.
CHUNG: What kind of person can accept that kind of behavior from someone else?
VENEY: It's a really difficult thing to go through. And it's really important. I learned in the end that it was good to understand what people I'm leading are going to feel like and what kind of leadership skills I want to portray as a leader in terms of leading them.
CHUNG: All right, Mike, I know you're a senior, which is first- class.
MIKE DESTEFANO, FIRST-CLASS CADET, WEST POINT: Yes, ma'am.
CHUNG: Fourth year. So, you're one of the screamers who screams at the others. Or that's part of your job.
DESTEFANO: That's part of my job.
CHUNG: Now, you had an interesting path. You had already gone into the military for three years, in the Army, right?
DESTEFANO: Yes, ma'am.
CHUNG: And then you decided to double back and try to get into West Point. And you succeeded. How did you do that?
DESTEFANO: It was a very hard choice. And it was almost like taking a demotion, you know, because I had put in my time. I'd gone through all the things that you have to go through at that level in the military. And then I was getting ready to face it, to go through it all again.
So, I had to, first of all, come to grips with that and just accept it. OK, this is the ends I want. So, I've got to be willing to do that.
CHUNG: OK, so let's go on to the training that you all have to go through. It's really -- we're talking "Officer and a Gentleman," not even. That was, like, nothing compared to what you had to do, right? That was the Naval Academy, anyway.
But you ended up going through the kind of training that we know about, but we never see. And, in this documentary, you get to see a lot of the sort of basic boot camp-type training, in this particular case, tear gas.
Let's take a look at this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SURVIVING WEST POINT")
NARRATOR: As they enter the dragon's layer, danger is already filling the air, danger in the form of potent tear gas. Putting the mask on was just a drill. Now it's time for the cadets to do the unthinkable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, I want you to take off your mask. All clear!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Oh, and, Ingrid, there you are. Oh, my gosh. How did that feel? How was it? How were you at that?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: It was awful. I definitely never want to do that again, like, if I could.
But it's one of those things that they were trying to just show you that your gas mask is there to protect you. And this is what it does. And it helps to protect. And when you put it on, you don't really realize at first. You are kind of just still breathing. You understand that it's something different because you're wearing it.
But once they made you break that seal, you understand that, wow, this is what could be happening, if I didn't have this. This is how this could save my life.
CHUNG: David, there had to be a moment of a little bit of anxiety when you were doing that, no?
VENEY: I was really nervous. I didn't know what to expect. I'd seen different people react different ways.
They told us that some people wouldn't be affected by it. Other people would be sick for days. So, I wasn't really sure how I was going to be. When I got in there and I took off my mask, it definitely choked me up just about as bad as everyone else there.
CHUNG: Mike, when 9/11 occurred, you actually are at an age and at a stage at West Point in which you would probably be one of the next up to actually help combat the war against terrorism. What was going on in your head?
DESTEFANO: I really -- at the time, I was so frustrated and so angry at being in the situation I was in, where I felt helpless, kind of like the rest of the country, where I felt, this is my job. This is what I'm being trained to do. And, at the time, I'm kind of constrained to go to school. And I felt like...
CHUNG: Oh, you wanted to get out there.
DESTEFANO: I wanted to be out there and making a difference and doing something, you know? And it was extremely frustrating for me to have to sit there and deal with it and do the little I could back at school.
CHUNG: That is so admirable.
I have to tell you, normal wimps like me are just so grateful that there are people like you who are willing to be out there. And I really need you to explain that a little more.
What makes you willing, Ingrid, to go out there and fight the wars for us?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: It's one of those things, like, even when it happened, you just feel so helpless, like you want to do something. And I just don't want to be that person that kind of like is just sitting there, hoping that someone does something. I want to be someone who is out there and helping lead and helping getting things done.
CHUNG: David, you too?
VENEY: Yes, ma'am. Just looking at the whole situation, it made me stop and think about why I was there.
CHUNG: Why you were at West Point?
VENEY: Why I was at West Point, why I was in the military. And when I finished, I came to the conclusion that it was definitely the place for me. I wanted to be out there to lead soldiers, to lead troops, and to help, as best I could, the United States in any situation we were in.
CHUNG: Now, Ingrid, our country is facing a critical decision at this moment, whether or not we invade Iraq. If we are going to, are you prepared to be part of that force?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: I'm prepared. I just...
CHUNG: Do you think we should? ZEGADA-FRIAS: We're not really sure on what we should do exactly. I just know that I'm trying to prepare myself and just be ready, through the training that we do at West Point, that they're trying to build leaders with character, and just so that, when we do become second lieutenants, that we're ready to lead our troops in no matter what we have to do.
CHUNG: Mike, do you think we should invade Iraq?
DESTEFANO: I really don't want to get into a discussion. But I'm just right now concentrating on trying to be as ready as I can, so, whether we do, whether we don't, or should it be another situation in the future, I will be ready for anything they ask the armed services to take care of.
CHUNG: David?
VENEY: Right now, if that situation came up, either way, I feel that I'm not quite ready to go out there. But that's also why I'm glad I'm at West Point, because I have the next few years to really learn about how to be a soldier and how to be a leader. And I'm looking forward to the next few years to learn as much as I can, so I am prepared when I get out there.
CHUNG: Well, you know what? I think I'm seeing three budding politicians, as well.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: So, you could follow in many of the footsteps who preceded you, right, from Ulysses S. Grant to Dwight David Eisenhower, etcetera.
Thank you so much for being with us. And good luck to you. I'd love to track your careers and see how you're doing a few years down the line. Keep in touch with us, will you?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: Thank you.
VENEY: Yes, ma'am.
DESTEFANO: Thank you very much.
CHUNG: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: All three of our cadets are getting to see their families over the holidays. And cadet Michael Destefano is getting his wish to be stationed at the U.S. Army Aviation Center in Fort Rucker, Alabama.
And when we come back: New Jersey's state poet blames September 11 on Jews. We'll ask him why.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Should a state poet have poetic license to spread falsehoods about September 11? The poet is New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka, who spoke with us exclusively after the controversy broke.
The lie repeated in his poem was started by a Muslim extremist and is ridiculous on the face of it. They claim that 4,000 Israelis were warned to not go to work at the World Trade Center, ridiculous because it would mean almost 10 percent of everyone working in the two buildings was Israeli. Still, no one could say they didn't know Baraka might cause controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Amiri Baraka says he warned the New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey that he might -- quote -- "catch hell" for naming Baraka to be the state's poet laureate.
If the poet sensed trouble was brewing, it certainly exploded last month. That's when he performed his poem "Somebody Blew Up America," written shortly after 9/11, at a poetry festival in New Jersey. Most of the poem concerns the legacy of slavery and racism. But several lines made specific reference to 9/11.
"Who knew the World Trade Center was going to get bombed?"
AMIRI BARAKA, NEW JERSEY POET LAUREATE: Who told 4,000 Israeli workers of the Twin Towers to stay home that day?
CHUNG: The lines in question make reference to a persistent myth about 9/11: that 4,000 Israelis had foreknowledge of the attack, failed to inform anyone, and escaped with their own lives while the towers burned.
These rumors were circulated over the Internet and cited by papers around the world. In some places, especially in the Middle East, the story was presented as fact. Baraka had been a pivotal figure in American poetry for four decades. His work has often been controversial. But, in 1980, he published an essay entitled "Confessions of a Former Anti-Semite." At a press conference today, he defended his poem.
BARAKA: I was not saying Israel was responsible for the attack, but that they knew and our own counterfeit president knew, too.
CHUNG: Following Baraka's reading last month, the Anti- Defamation League and other Jewish groups blasted him as anti-Semitic and called for him to step down as the poet laureate. And New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey joined the calls for Baraka's resignation.
GOV. JAMES MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: Somebody makes a statement to imply that the Israelis were aware of, that's simply inappropriate. That's not tolerable. And he ought to resign.
CHUNG: But there is no provision in New Jersey law for retracting the honor. He was named by a committee to a two-year post that includes a $10,000 award. At least one member of the selection committee said Baraka should not resign.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: When we come back: confronting Amiri Baraka face-to-face.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We just recapped the outrage and controversy this summer over New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka. His poem "Somebody Blew Up America" repeats the lie that 4,000 Israelis were warned to stay away from the World Trade Center on September 11. Baraka has always been controversial and influential.
I spoke with him about his poem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now: the man once described by the American Academy of Arts and Letters as one of the most important African- American poets since Langston Hughes: New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka.
BARAKA: How are you?
CHUNG: Thank you so much for being with us.
BARAKA: Thank you.
CHUNG: Why did you write these particular lines that have provoked such controversy?
BARAKA: Well, let's say the rest of the poem is of no consequence? It's just those lines that are important?
CHUNG: Those lines have created quite a firestorm. And you know that.
BARAKA: Well, here's the point. My intention was to show that not only did Israel know, because Israel -- we're talking about 9/11 -- not only did Israel know, but the United States knew. Bush and company...
CHUNG: You're saying that Israel and the United States knew...
BARAKA: And Germany.
CHUNG: ... that these attacks were going to occur?
BARAKA: And Germany and France and Russia and England. And this is confirmed.
CHUNG: And you know that's preposterous. BARAKA: Do I know it's preposterous?
CHUNG: Yes.
BARAKA: No, it's not preposterous.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: The Israelis did not know. The United States did not know.
BARAKA: You know that's not true.
One of the reasons that what's her name, McKinney, Cynthia McKinney, the congresswoman from Georgia, got put out is because she said the same thing. I have a press release of hers in my bag that says the same thing.
CHUNG: What evidence do you have?
BARAKA: Do you know that the Democratic Party is saying the same thing?
CHUNG: The Democratic Party does not say that, sir.
BARAKA: The Democratic Party does not say that Bush and company knew?
CHUNG: Knew that 9/11, the attacks were going to occur?
BARAKA: Knew that 9/11 was coming, yes. They don't say that?
CHUNG: They don't say that.
BARAKA: That's not what they said last week, two weeks ago.
CHUNG: There have been reports. There have been committee hearings regarding it, but no.
BARAKA: When they were saying they can't connect the dots?
CHUNG: No.
BARAKA: I think, though, you're not reading closely. Maybe you hear what you want to here.
CHUNG: What evidence do you have?
BARAKA: What evidence do the people who have said that have? What evidence does the Democratic Party?
There is any number of articles on the Internet. You can check with any number of Israeli newspapers, "Haaretz", "Yediot Aharonot," Manar TV. You can check the Web site of Shevac (ph), the Israeli security. And what's wild is that people like this company, for instance -- and I'm not singling you out -- you have huge mainframe computers. You can get this stuff with just a few taps of your fingers.
CHUNG: All right, let's put aside for a moment whether or not
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: What's interesting to me, the rest of the poem -- they're going to destroy this poem, they think, by trying to deny that the whole imperialist world knew this was going to happen, that Bush and company knew this was going to happen and did nothing. The FBI agents in Minnesota and Arizona will tell you the same thing. One of the FBI agents is suing them about it.
CHUNG: There is no question that there have been reports, and, at the committee hearings, that there were lots of various warnings and no one was able to pull it all together.
BARAKA: That's what they say, right. OK.
CHUNG: However, if we put aside whether or not it is true or not true, even your critics say you have a right as a poet...
BARAKA: Well, why are they trying to beat me up, if I have the right?
CHUNG: Because you are the poet laureate of New Jersey and you have, according to them, a responsibility. You have an obligation not to foment hatred.
BARAKA: My responsibility is to truth and beauty. That's what Keats said and that's what Du Bois said. That's my responsibility.
CHUNG: Do you agree that your poem includes hatred? And should you be fomenting hatred?
BARAKA: Tell me, what is hatred in there? What is hatred? Tell me what's hatred in there?
CHUNG: You don't think that there's hatred in there?
BARAKA: What is it? What is it?
CHUNG: OH, my goodness. Well, should I read you all the lines?
BARAKA: There's a great Chinese author named Lu Hsun (ph) that says if you can't hate, you can't love. I mean, everything is dialectic. There's no up without down. There's no fat without skinny. So I would admit I hate slavery, you understand? I hate murderers. I hate lies.
CHUNG: How do you view your role as poet laureate?
BARAKA: To bring attention to poetry, to give people access to poetry, to network poetry throughout the state. But if they're going to try to censor what I say -- look, the two most praised poets, American poets, by the academy, by these same people, are Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot, the worst anti-Semites in the universe. And I certainly can't compare to them.
CHUNG: I know you have said that you're not an anti-Semite.
BARAKA: That's right.
CHUNG: You say you're an anti-Israeli.
BARAKA: Well, let's say this. I'm against Israeli foreign -- policy.
I'm against what they're doing to the Palestinians. I think they're massacring the Palestinians. And I have two communications from Israel, one by Gush Shalom, which is the peace block, another by 95 Israeli academics, all condemning Israel. And the ADL is condemning them. I want to know how does the ADL gets over to Israel condemning -- are they condemning them as anti-Semites, too?
CHUNG: Are you anti-Jewish?
BARAKA: No, of course not. That's bizarre.
See, this is what I'm saying. You mean to tell me I can't criticize Israel without getting called anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish? You think that Israel and Judaism are the same thing? They're not. Do you understand what I mean?
CHUNG: Yes, I know this has always been your position.
BARAKA: Well, people hide behind it. Israel hides behind that. If you attack them for what they're doing to the Palestinians, by the way, you're anti-Semitic.
CHUNG: When you uttered this poem at a festival, "The New York Times" quotes the director of the festival as saying you did apologize for the poem and you actually extracted the offensive lines the second time you read it. Is that true?
BARAKA: What I did was, I apologized to Mr. Habba (ph), because he was very frustrated. People were jumping on him, you understand? Not people were not jumping on him.
Somebody apparently -- and he was upset and he came to me and said something like, "We're trying to pull things together," or, "We're trying to deal with everyone. And you're trying to marginalize this," or something like that.
And I said: "I'm sorry, Jim, because this is your job. I know it's a difficult job."
CHUNG: Well, there you go. Isn't that really essentially what all your critics are asking, that you are, whatever you said, marginalizing or causing a schism?
BARAKA: Well, let me ask you this. Are you concerned about those Palestinians that are getting killed?
CHUNG: Can you answer that question?
BARAKA: Is the ADL concerned about the Palestinians getting killed?
CHUNG: If you apologized to the director of the festival, why not maintain that position now regarding your poem and say, "All right, maybe I shouldn't have, as poet laureate..."
BARAKA: No, no, no. I was apologizing to him for him having to accept all this criticism and attack from people. You know what I mean? And he felt put upon as a result of what I was doing. But as far as people jumping on me, they got a right to do that. If they want to jump on me, I can take it. You understand?
CHUNG: All right, we have someone right now...
BARAKA: I bet.
CHUNG: ... who would happily jump on you at your press conference.
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: Is this the same people who attacked affirmative action, who filed a suit against affirmative action?
CHUNG: You challenged the Anti-Defamation League to debate you on national television. Now, the ADL declined to debate you directly.
BARAKA: I'll bet you they did.
CHUNG: But the ADL associate national director, Kenny Jacobson, has agreed to respond.
Mr. Jacobson, thank you for being with us.
Why is it that you so strenuously object to Mr. Baraka's poem?
KENNY JACOBSON, ASSOCIATE NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ADL: Well, just listening to Mr. Baraka's comments, they would be laughable if they weren't so serious.
We're in a situation now in the world where we're having the greatest explosion of anti-Semitism that we've seen since World War II.
CHUNG: Let's keep this on the poem itself.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: And the question is, what is it? Doesn't he have a right as a poet to say what he wants to say?
JACOBSON: Everyone has a right to say what they -- everyone also has a right to respond to hatred. And, in this particular case, because he represents the state of New Jersey, there's an obligation for the state to look into his responsibilities.
The simple fact is, the 9/11 myth is the biggest lie that's been told about the Jewish people since the days of Hitler.
BARAKA: Nobody is saying anything about the Jewish people.
JACOBSON: And the simple fact is that this started in Lebanon on September 17; 60 percent of Muslims in nine different countries believe that Jews are responsible for 9/11.
This is a very, very dangerous thing. This isn't just something abstract. This kind of thinking leads to very dangerous consequences. And to have Mr. Baraka representing the state of New Jersey, repeat this kind of lie, is anti-Semitic.
CHUNG: Well, in the same poem, sir...
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: May I bring your attention to the poem itself?
In the poem itself, he talks about the persecution of Jews. And so you say he's anti-Semitic, that he's anti-Israel. In fact, in the very same poem, he talks about the persecution of Jews.
JACOBSON: I just know the impact of these kinds of words around the world.
The simple fact is, this is an outright lie, the biggest lie that we've seen. The lie that Israel knew about this, the fact is, the story really was that it is believed in the Islamic world that, not only did Israel know about it, but that Israel and the Jews were behind it. "60 Minutes" did a piece and they interviewed people in...
CHUNG: Mr. Jacobson.
JACOBSON: Yes.
CHUNG: You know the governor of New Jersey cannot remove him. The committee that selected him cannot remove him by law. So what do you want done?
JACOBSON: Well, No. 1, first of all, we're very pleased that the governor spoke out. And the truth is, there was a predecessor to Mr. Baraka. And it would be nice if they could replace Mr. Baraka or supersede his role because of the hatred that is not representative of what the people of New Jersey should be seeing.
So the fact is, this is not just a few comments. This speaks to something that is going on around the world. And it's a very, very dangerous trend. This big lie is leading to anti-Semitism all around the world. In Europe, we see this. We surely see that in the Middle East. This has nothing to do with whether one agrees on a particular Israeli policy. That's a straw man.
The reality is, this is classic anti-Semitism. I lost a cousin...
CHUNG: Mr. Jacobson, I thank you so much. I thank you for being with us.
And we're going to turn once again to Mr. Baraka.
Isn't this insulting to the memory, though, of those who died at 9/11?
BARAKA: There were a lot of black people that died in 9/11.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Aside from are what Mr. Jacobson is talking about and the ADL is saying, isn't it insulting to these people who died, to the relatives of the people who died?
BARAKA: You mean, did black people die in it? Were there black people? Were there Asian people who died in there? Were there Latinos that died? Were there Haitians that died? Of course there were. Nobody is talking about that.
The only thing they resent is that I'm saying that the United States knew, Israelis knew, England, France, Germany, Russia knew. They warned the United States previously. You can check that with Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. You can check it in several Web sites across the world. And for him to say that by saying that, I'm anti- Semitic, that's the greatest kind of canard that I've heard.
CHUNG: Do you have any kind of intention of resigning?
BARAKA: Oh, of course not.
CHUNG: Will you resign?
BARAKA: No. Plus, I haven't been paid either.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: The $10,000
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: Right. I haven't been paid.
CHUNG: Aside from that, wouldn't the honorable thing to do...
BARAKA: Why should I resign? This is my job, to bring attention to poetry. You don't think I'm doing that?
CHUNG: Well, of course you are, but it's probably not in the light that you had intended. Or was it, in fact? Is this your intent? Was it your intent?
BARAKA: I underestimated the fools and the bigots in the world. But certainly, I knew that what I said would be bring more attention to poetry than has been brought there heretofore.
CHUNG: So you intended for this controversy to blossom.
BARAKA: I intended to read my poetry as the flagship poet of the state, obviously. Look, that poem was written a year ago.
CHUNG: Yes, I recognize that.
BARAKA: That poem has been all over the world. I read that poem in German, Switzerland...
CHUNG: And before you were chosen as poet laureate.
BARAKA: ... Spain, Portugal, Africa. I read that poem all over the world. What they should do...
CHUNG: Well, I thank you.
BARAKA: OK.
CHUNG: May I thank you for being us?
BARAKA: Thank you very much. Thank you.
CHUNG: We appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: The controversy sparked calls throughout New Jersey that the position of poet laureate be eliminated entirely.
When we come back: Oh, captain, my captain, none other than William Shatner.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As Christmas Day itself draws near, we can't help but think back to that legendary time so many years ago; wise men on a trek following a star. That's right. We're talking about "Star Trek." But William Shatner hasn't let his role as Captain James Tiberius Kirk put him in a cage. He's gone from J.T. To T.J. and beyond, as we found out this summer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "STAR TREK")
WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: Captain Kirk, ready to beam up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG (voice-over): More than 30 years since his career-defining role beamed him into television sets, 71-year-old William Shatner is still working. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: I don't have a gun. My ancestors were quakers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: While acting roles still come his way, he's better known for simply being William Shatner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: And I'm telling you, the undead are a real pain in the neck. Thank you. Seriously, though, vampires are almost impossible to kill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: On August 3, he begins hosting a Sci-Fi Channel horror series. Looking back at some scary B-movies, long forgotten.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: Time now to return to the world of the ancient undead blood-sucking freaks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: He took his Captain Kirk character to the big screen for a series of seven "Star Trek" feature films, grossing more than $400 million. But he's done far more than "Star Trek." Shatner remained on television through the '80s and '90s as a tough cop on "T.J. Hooker," and hosting stories of real-life heroes in "Rescue 911."
In the late '90s, he became the spokesperson for an Internet travel start-up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: We're saving a truckload of gasket money. You coming along for the ride?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: He starred as himself in a series of self-mocking ads for Priceline.com. He chose to be paid in stock options, cashing in half his Priceline stock in early 1999, bringing him an estimated $3 million, before losing much of the rest when the Internet boom busted.
His first two marriages ended in divorce. His third ended in tragedy. On August 9, 1999, Shatner made a horrific discovery. He returned to his Studio City home and found his wife of two years, Noreen, at the bottom of their swimming pool. She had been battling alcoholism, and the autopsy found alcohol and sleeping pills in her system.
The next day, Shatner shared his loss and his grief in a statement outside his gated home.
W. SHATNER: Her laughter, her tears and her joy will remain with me the rest of my life.
CHUNG: A year-and-a-half later, he married his fourth wife, 42- year-old horse trainer Elizabeth Martin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: This next song is a straight up admission of a singer with a serious case of dance fever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: And tonight, Shatner begins hosting another cable series, "One-Hit Wonders" on VH-1. He seems an unlikely choice since he's made a career of coming back, decade after decade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER (singing): I love the night life, I love to boogie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: When we come back, we'll beam up the captain himself.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We went on a little star trek of our own just now, trekking through the career and personal history of William Shatner, including the sudden death of his wife Noreen.
He and his new wife, Elizabeth, sat down with me this summer. And we began with his reaction to that tape from the time of Noreen's death.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Look at you, you're just tearing up when you talk about Noreen.
W. SHATNER: I hadn't seen that piece. I haven't seen that piece. But it's a long story. And things go on.
CHUNG: Well, why don't we talk about the two of you. You got married. And because you met talking about one particular thing, and that was the two deaths you experienced. Your wife and your husband. Elizabeth? Your husband died of cancer?
ELIZABETH SHATNER, WILLIAM SHATNER'S WIFE: Yes, he did. He fought cancer, lymphoma of the bone, for a year and a half and died in '97. Within about the same week, the same date almost, that Noreen died in August, first week of August.
W. SHATNER: Two years earlier.
E. SHATNER: Two years earlier.
CHUNG: So how did you meet?
W. SHATNER: Well...
CHUNG: What exactly was it?
W. SHATNER: She...
E. SHATNER: I wrote a sympathy note.
W. SHATNER: Wrote a sympathy note, and...
CHUNG: Out of the blue?
W. SHATNER: No. My wife's -- Liz is a horse trainer, and my passion is horses. And I had seen -- seen the Martin stables in California sort of in the distance. And I knew of her story, of nursing her husband for a year and a half. And so four, five months after Noreen died, I was trying to get through the sympathy notes, the notes of condolence.
And there was one note that was beautifully written, and I read it, and it was Elizabeth. And sometime after that, I called her and we started talking on the phone, and she had been through the grief processes -- mystical, strange, but almost definable thing. And she had been through it. And she helped me through that whole process.
CHUNG: Did you happen to know that she was so gorgeous?
W. SHATNER: I knew she was very beautiful, but I didn't know how intelligent and bright and funny and all that.
E. SHATNER: Oh, thank you.
CHUNG: Awfully nice. It's awfully nice.
W. SHATNER: We made a movie called "Groom Lake," which is out now. A memorial to Mike and to Noreen. Sort of a spiritual love story.
CHUNG: Now, you are doing something that I think is just crazy, wacky. But it's not the first time, huh?
W. SHATNER: Crazy, wacky?
CHUNG: Yeah. At 71, you're into auto racing, right?
W. SHATNER: I am. Yes. Well, I've raced now in two Grand Prix. I've learned to drive a car fast. I have the second fastest time in Washington.
CHUNG: There you go. Give me five on that.
W. SHATNER: Right there, and the other one too.
CHUNG: What does she think about it?
E. SHATNER: The actual car racing, I'm gaining appreciation for it more and more. Didn't like it at first. But the events are always -- the last two times have been for charity, so it makes it worthwhile.
W. SHATNER: She's worried about me.
E. SHATNER: Definitely worried.
CHUNG: Yeah, yeah. You and Paul Newman. And he's still racing, isn't he?
W. SHATNER: I'm not sure that Paul gets in the car anymore, I'm not sure. I don't know. He was really good.
CHUNG: All right. So, let's go on to my favorite, those Priceline commercials. I saw you watching our little story, you know. You were kind of shaking your head. Why?
W. SHATNER: Well, wacky and crazy. What is wacky? You take a chance. You walk a tightrope. What is wacky and crazy? Is it stupid? Is wacky and crazy stupid to somebody else?
CHUNG: No, I don't think that.
W. SHATNER: No, but you think it's wacky and crazy, does he think it's stupid? It's such a fine line that you walk when you're wacky and crazy. It's safer not to be wacky and crazy.
CHUNG: Well, you're right, because you're that other part, too loopy. Right?
W. SHATNER: Yeah.
CHUNG: Yeah. But the Priceline thing, tell me something, is that a parody on celebrity? Is that William Shatner doing a joke? Or, you know, what is it? It's so captivating, I'm telling you.
W. SHATNER: Well, that's the reason -- I think that's the reason why. The line between the sincerity of a true performance and the farcical irony, however you might characterize what it is I'm doing, is so fine that you don't know when you tread it. You don't know where it is. But somewhere in that area is an ironic look at that.
CHUNG: And that is what?
W. SHATNER: That is a performance character.
CHUNG: Got it. It's sort of like the lounge lizard, no?
W. SHATNER: I think so, but less. CHUNG: Right. Not so overt?
W. SHATNER: Exactly.
CHUNG: There you go. We analyzed it. So the Priceline -- you're back with them. You left them, and now you're back?
W. SHATNER: No, I never really left. I was doing radio commercials for them. They didn't know which way to go. And now we're planning a new campaign. And it will be out in September. You'll be able to see and hopefully laugh with it.
CHUNG: Elizabeth, how come he just continues working and working? He never stops. I mean, he's got it; he gets jobs like that. And at 71, he will not stop. I get the impression. True?
E. SHATNER: He couldn't. He has too much energy.
CHUNG: And he doesn't look 71 at all.
E. SHATTER: Absolutely not.
CHUNG: Are both of you great riders and horse people?
E. SHATNER: We love them. That's our passion.
W. SHATNER: She's a professional who recently got her amateur status back because she married me.
(CROSSTALK)
E. SHATNER: As far as the riding and training, but then I'm maintaining my judge's card, so I judge different breeds.
W. SHATNER: So yes, she's a fabulous rider and horse trainer. And I love to ride. And riding a horse, at its peak and its perfection and its ultimate way is not dissimilar to driving a car fast. The balance. The -- a car needs to be balanced, front or rear balance. A horse needs to be contained, needs to be balanced as well, shoulder, rear end.
CHUNG: At some level, you have control but you don't, right?
W. SHATNER: Yes.
E. SHATNER: There's an edge. There's an edge.
W. SHATNER: There's an edge. The limits of adhesion in both horse, car and life.
CHUNG: Oh, there you go. You took it right out there.
W. SHATNER: I took a straight line out to the infinity.
CHUNG: And I thank you so much. It's great to see you.
W. SHATNER: Thank you.
E. SHATNER: Pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Bill Shatner's "One-Hit Wonders" still appear on VH-1. His movie "Groom Lake" is due out on DVD. And it you need a last- minute Christmas gift, this isn't an endorsement, but just information for you, OK? Priceline released William Shatner bobbleheads this fall.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow, it's Christmas Day. And our all-star lineup includes music from Andrea Bocelli and Rod Stewart, and no music, but wonderful talk from Kevin Kline and Carrie Fisher.
"LARRY KING LIVE" is next.
Thank you so much for watching. And we hope you have a great Christmas. We'll see you tomorrow night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 24, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening.
On this Christmas Eve, we're going to revisit a controversy that arose over a poem about September 11. But we're also going to look back at our humorous, but also touching visit with the captain of the Enterprise and his third mate.
We are going to start off, though, with a look at the future, the future of America, and the future of America's defenders. The National Geographic Channel recently went inside America's most famous military academy to tell the story of "Surviving West Point." And we spoke with three of the cadets whose stories they told.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now to discuss "Surviving West Point" are cadets Ingrid Zegada-Frias, David Veney, and Mike Destefano.
Thank you very much for being with us.
Ingrid, let's start with you. You actually had military in your family. Your grandfather was a general. And you had other members of your family who were parts of the military.
Now, this is a very regimented and -- as I view it, you enjoy some level of lack of freedom in this career and in this life at West Point. Is this something that you dreamed of?
INGRID ZEGADA-FRIAS, THIRD-CLASS CADET, WEST POINT: It wasn't something like, since I was little, I always wanted to go to West Point, I always wanted to be in the military. It was kind of something new.
CHUNG: So, what happened?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: It was kind of in high school. You're trying to think about colleges and where to go. And one day, they were just like, there's a military academy day in D.C. And my mom went. I couldn't go. I had SAT classes. But my mom went and she just fell in love with everything.
CHUNG: She did? ZEGADA-FRIAS: She did.
CHUNG: And I know your brother tried to get in, but he didn't make it. Is it something that he really wanted?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: He wanted it as well. And that's kind of what first got us into just thinking about West Point in general. But, yes, he wasn't accepted in the end.
CHUNG: All right.
So, David, this was no mystery to you, because your father had gone to West Point and even taught there. But he was afraid that you were going there just because of him.
DAVID VENEY, THIRD-CLASS CADET, WEST POINT: The truth is, I wanted to go for myself. West Point is about leadership. It's about teamwork, working with other people. That's what I really came for. And it's a great place to do it.
CHUNG: Now, you're in your second year.
VENEY: Yes, ma'am.
CHUNG: Which means you were screamed at a lot the first year.
VENEY: Yes, I was.
CHUNG: What kind of person can accept that kind of behavior from someone else?
VENEY: It's a really difficult thing to go through. And it's really important. I learned in the end that it was good to understand what people I'm leading are going to feel like and what kind of leadership skills I want to portray as a leader in terms of leading them.
CHUNG: All right, Mike, I know you're a senior, which is first- class.
MIKE DESTEFANO, FIRST-CLASS CADET, WEST POINT: Yes, ma'am.
CHUNG: Fourth year. So, you're one of the screamers who screams at the others. Or that's part of your job.
DESTEFANO: That's part of my job.
CHUNG: Now, you had an interesting path. You had already gone into the military for three years, in the Army, right?
DESTEFANO: Yes, ma'am.
CHUNG: And then you decided to double back and try to get into West Point. And you succeeded. How did you do that?
DESTEFANO: It was a very hard choice. And it was almost like taking a demotion, you know, because I had put in my time. I'd gone through all the things that you have to go through at that level in the military. And then I was getting ready to face it, to go through it all again.
So, I had to, first of all, come to grips with that and just accept it. OK, this is the ends I want. So, I've got to be willing to do that.
CHUNG: OK, so let's go on to the training that you all have to go through. It's really -- we're talking "Officer and a Gentleman," not even. That was, like, nothing compared to what you had to do, right? That was the Naval Academy, anyway.
But you ended up going through the kind of training that we know about, but we never see. And, in this documentary, you get to see a lot of the sort of basic boot camp-type training, in this particular case, tear gas.
Let's take a look at this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SURVIVING WEST POINT")
NARRATOR: As they enter the dragon's layer, danger is already filling the air, danger in the form of potent tear gas. Putting the mask on was just a drill. Now it's time for the cadets to do the unthinkable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, I want you to take off your mask. All clear!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Oh, and, Ingrid, there you are. Oh, my gosh. How did that feel? How was it? How were you at that?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: It was awful. I definitely never want to do that again, like, if I could.
But it's one of those things that they were trying to just show you that your gas mask is there to protect you. And this is what it does. And it helps to protect. And when you put it on, you don't really realize at first. You are kind of just still breathing. You understand that it's something different because you're wearing it.
But once they made you break that seal, you understand that, wow, this is what could be happening, if I didn't have this. This is how this could save my life.
CHUNG: David, there had to be a moment of a little bit of anxiety when you were doing that, no?
VENEY: I was really nervous. I didn't know what to expect. I'd seen different people react different ways.
They told us that some people wouldn't be affected by it. Other people would be sick for days. So, I wasn't really sure how I was going to be. When I got in there and I took off my mask, it definitely choked me up just about as bad as everyone else there.
CHUNG: Mike, when 9/11 occurred, you actually are at an age and at a stage at West Point in which you would probably be one of the next up to actually help combat the war against terrorism. What was going on in your head?
DESTEFANO: I really -- at the time, I was so frustrated and so angry at being in the situation I was in, where I felt helpless, kind of like the rest of the country, where I felt, this is my job. This is what I'm being trained to do. And, at the time, I'm kind of constrained to go to school. And I felt like...
CHUNG: Oh, you wanted to get out there.
DESTEFANO: I wanted to be out there and making a difference and doing something, you know? And it was extremely frustrating for me to have to sit there and deal with it and do the little I could back at school.
CHUNG: That is so admirable.
I have to tell you, normal wimps like me are just so grateful that there are people like you who are willing to be out there. And I really need you to explain that a little more.
What makes you willing, Ingrid, to go out there and fight the wars for us?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: It's one of those things, like, even when it happened, you just feel so helpless, like you want to do something. And I just don't want to be that person that kind of like is just sitting there, hoping that someone does something. I want to be someone who is out there and helping lead and helping getting things done.
CHUNG: David, you too?
VENEY: Yes, ma'am. Just looking at the whole situation, it made me stop and think about why I was there.
CHUNG: Why you were at West Point?
VENEY: Why I was at West Point, why I was in the military. And when I finished, I came to the conclusion that it was definitely the place for me. I wanted to be out there to lead soldiers, to lead troops, and to help, as best I could, the United States in any situation we were in.
CHUNG: Now, Ingrid, our country is facing a critical decision at this moment, whether or not we invade Iraq. If we are going to, are you prepared to be part of that force?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: I'm prepared. I just...
CHUNG: Do you think we should? ZEGADA-FRIAS: We're not really sure on what we should do exactly. I just know that I'm trying to prepare myself and just be ready, through the training that we do at West Point, that they're trying to build leaders with character, and just so that, when we do become second lieutenants, that we're ready to lead our troops in no matter what we have to do.
CHUNG: Mike, do you think we should invade Iraq?
DESTEFANO: I really don't want to get into a discussion. But I'm just right now concentrating on trying to be as ready as I can, so, whether we do, whether we don't, or should it be another situation in the future, I will be ready for anything they ask the armed services to take care of.
CHUNG: David?
VENEY: Right now, if that situation came up, either way, I feel that I'm not quite ready to go out there. But that's also why I'm glad I'm at West Point, because I have the next few years to really learn about how to be a soldier and how to be a leader. And I'm looking forward to the next few years to learn as much as I can, so I am prepared when I get out there.
CHUNG: Well, you know what? I think I'm seeing three budding politicians, as well.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: So, you could follow in many of the footsteps who preceded you, right, from Ulysses S. Grant to Dwight David Eisenhower, etcetera.
Thank you so much for being with us. And good luck to you. I'd love to track your careers and see how you're doing a few years down the line. Keep in touch with us, will you?
ZEGADA-FRIAS: Thank you.
VENEY: Yes, ma'am.
DESTEFANO: Thank you very much.
CHUNG: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: All three of our cadets are getting to see their families over the holidays. And cadet Michael Destefano is getting his wish to be stationed at the U.S. Army Aviation Center in Fort Rucker, Alabama.
And when we come back: New Jersey's state poet blames September 11 on Jews. We'll ask him why.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Should a state poet have poetic license to spread falsehoods about September 11? The poet is New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka, who spoke with us exclusively after the controversy broke.
The lie repeated in his poem was started by a Muslim extremist and is ridiculous on the face of it. They claim that 4,000 Israelis were warned to not go to work at the World Trade Center, ridiculous because it would mean almost 10 percent of everyone working in the two buildings was Israeli. Still, no one could say they didn't know Baraka might cause controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Amiri Baraka says he warned the New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey that he might -- quote -- "catch hell" for naming Baraka to be the state's poet laureate.
If the poet sensed trouble was brewing, it certainly exploded last month. That's when he performed his poem "Somebody Blew Up America," written shortly after 9/11, at a poetry festival in New Jersey. Most of the poem concerns the legacy of slavery and racism. But several lines made specific reference to 9/11.
"Who knew the World Trade Center was going to get bombed?"
AMIRI BARAKA, NEW JERSEY POET LAUREATE: Who told 4,000 Israeli workers of the Twin Towers to stay home that day?
CHUNG: The lines in question make reference to a persistent myth about 9/11: that 4,000 Israelis had foreknowledge of the attack, failed to inform anyone, and escaped with their own lives while the towers burned.
These rumors were circulated over the Internet and cited by papers around the world. In some places, especially in the Middle East, the story was presented as fact. Baraka had been a pivotal figure in American poetry for four decades. His work has often been controversial. But, in 1980, he published an essay entitled "Confessions of a Former Anti-Semite." At a press conference today, he defended his poem.
BARAKA: I was not saying Israel was responsible for the attack, but that they knew and our own counterfeit president knew, too.
CHUNG: Following Baraka's reading last month, the Anti- Defamation League and other Jewish groups blasted him as anti-Semitic and called for him to step down as the poet laureate. And New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey joined the calls for Baraka's resignation.
GOV. JAMES MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: Somebody makes a statement to imply that the Israelis were aware of, that's simply inappropriate. That's not tolerable. And he ought to resign.
CHUNG: But there is no provision in New Jersey law for retracting the honor. He was named by a committee to a two-year post that includes a $10,000 award. At least one member of the selection committee said Baraka should not resign.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: When we come back: confronting Amiri Baraka face-to-face.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We just recapped the outrage and controversy this summer over New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka. His poem "Somebody Blew Up America" repeats the lie that 4,000 Israelis were warned to stay away from the World Trade Center on September 11. Baraka has always been controversial and influential.
I spoke with him about his poem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now: the man once described by the American Academy of Arts and Letters as one of the most important African- American poets since Langston Hughes: New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka.
BARAKA: How are you?
CHUNG: Thank you so much for being with us.
BARAKA: Thank you.
CHUNG: Why did you write these particular lines that have provoked such controversy?
BARAKA: Well, let's say the rest of the poem is of no consequence? It's just those lines that are important?
CHUNG: Those lines have created quite a firestorm. And you know that.
BARAKA: Well, here's the point. My intention was to show that not only did Israel know, because Israel -- we're talking about 9/11 -- not only did Israel know, but the United States knew. Bush and company...
CHUNG: You're saying that Israel and the United States knew...
BARAKA: And Germany.
CHUNG: ... that these attacks were going to occur?
BARAKA: And Germany and France and Russia and England. And this is confirmed.
CHUNG: And you know that's preposterous. BARAKA: Do I know it's preposterous?
CHUNG: Yes.
BARAKA: No, it's not preposterous.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: The Israelis did not know. The United States did not know.
BARAKA: You know that's not true.
One of the reasons that what's her name, McKinney, Cynthia McKinney, the congresswoman from Georgia, got put out is because she said the same thing. I have a press release of hers in my bag that says the same thing.
CHUNG: What evidence do you have?
BARAKA: Do you know that the Democratic Party is saying the same thing?
CHUNG: The Democratic Party does not say that, sir.
BARAKA: The Democratic Party does not say that Bush and company knew?
CHUNG: Knew that 9/11, the attacks were going to occur?
BARAKA: Knew that 9/11 was coming, yes. They don't say that?
CHUNG: They don't say that.
BARAKA: That's not what they said last week, two weeks ago.
CHUNG: There have been reports. There have been committee hearings regarding it, but no.
BARAKA: When they were saying they can't connect the dots?
CHUNG: No.
BARAKA: I think, though, you're not reading closely. Maybe you hear what you want to here.
CHUNG: What evidence do you have?
BARAKA: What evidence do the people who have said that have? What evidence does the Democratic Party?
There is any number of articles on the Internet. You can check with any number of Israeli newspapers, "Haaretz", "Yediot Aharonot," Manar TV. You can check the Web site of Shevac (ph), the Israeli security. And what's wild is that people like this company, for instance -- and I'm not singling you out -- you have huge mainframe computers. You can get this stuff with just a few taps of your fingers.
CHUNG: All right, let's put aside for a moment whether or not
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: What's interesting to me, the rest of the poem -- they're going to destroy this poem, they think, by trying to deny that the whole imperialist world knew this was going to happen, that Bush and company knew this was going to happen and did nothing. The FBI agents in Minnesota and Arizona will tell you the same thing. One of the FBI agents is suing them about it.
CHUNG: There is no question that there have been reports, and, at the committee hearings, that there were lots of various warnings and no one was able to pull it all together.
BARAKA: That's what they say, right. OK.
CHUNG: However, if we put aside whether or not it is true or not true, even your critics say you have a right as a poet...
BARAKA: Well, why are they trying to beat me up, if I have the right?
CHUNG: Because you are the poet laureate of New Jersey and you have, according to them, a responsibility. You have an obligation not to foment hatred.
BARAKA: My responsibility is to truth and beauty. That's what Keats said and that's what Du Bois said. That's my responsibility.
CHUNG: Do you agree that your poem includes hatred? And should you be fomenting hatred?
BARAKA: Tell me, what is hatred in there? What is hatred? Tell me what's hatred in there?
CHUNG: You don't think that there's hatred in there?
BARAKA: What is it? What is it?
CHUNG: OH, my goodness. Well, should I read you all the lines?
BARAKA: There's a great Chinese author named Lu Hsun (ph) that says if you can't hate, you can't love. I mean, everything is dialectic. There's no up without down. There's no fat without skinny. So I would admit I hate slavery, you understand? I hate murderers. I hate lies.
CHUNG: How do you view your role as poet laureate?
BARAKA: To bring attention to poetry, to give people access to poetry, to network poetry throughout the state. But if they're going to try to censor what I say -- look, the two most praised poets, American poets, by the academy, by these same people, are Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot, the worst anti-Semites in the universe. And I certainly can't compare to them.
CHUNG: I know you have said that you're not an anti-Semite.
BARAKA: That's right.
CHUNG: You say you're an anti-Israeli.
BARAKA: Well, let's say this. I'm against Israeli foreign -- policy.
I'm against what they're doing to the Palestinians. I think they're massacring the Palestinians. And I have two communications from Israel, one by Gush Shalom, which is the peace block, another by 95 Israeli academics, all condemning Israel. And the ADL is condemning them. I want to know how does the ADL gets over to Israel condemning -- are they condemning them as anti-Semites, too?
CHUNG: Are you anti-Jewish?
BARAKA: No, of course not. That's bizarre.
See, this is what I'm saying. You mean to tell me I can't criticize Israel without getting called anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish? You think that Israel and Judaism are the same thing? They're not. Do you understand what I mean?
CHUNG: Yes, I know this has always been your position.
BARAKA: Well, people hide behind it. Israel hides behind that. If you attack them for what they're doing to the Palestinians, by the way, you're anti-Semitic.
CHUNG: When you uttered this poem at a festival, "The New York Times" quotes the director of the festival as saying you did apologize for the poem and you actually extracted the offensive lines the second time you read it. Is that true?
BARAKA: What I did was, I apologized to Mr. Habba (ph), because he was very frustrated. People were jumping on him, you understand? Not people were not jumping on him.
Somebody apparently -- and he was upset and he came to me and said something like, "We're trying to pull things together," or, "We're trying to deal with everyone. And you're trying to marginalize this," or something like that.
And I said: "I'm sorry, Jim, because this is your job. I know it's a difficult job."
CHUNG: Well, there you go. Isn't that really essentially what all your critics are asking, that you are, whatever you said, marginalizing or causing a schism?
BARAKA: Well, let me ask you this. Are you concerned about those Palestinians that are getting killed?
CHUNG: Can you answer that question?
BARAKA: Is the ADL concerned about the Palestinians getting killed?
CHUNG: If you apologized to the director of the festival, why not maintain that position now regarding your poem and say, "All right, maybe I shouldn't have, as poet laureate..."
BARAKA: No, no, no. I was apologizing to him for him having to accept all this criticism and attack from people. You know what I mean? And he felt put upon as a result of what I was doing. But as far as people jumping on me, they got a right to do that. If they want to jump on me, I can take it. You understand?
CHUNG: All right, we have someone right now...
BARAKA: I bet.
CHUNG: ... who would happily jump on you at your press conference.
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: Is this the same people who attacked affirmative action, who filed a suit against affirmative action?
CHUNG: You challenged the Anti-Defamation League to debate you on national television. Now, the ADL declined to debate you directly.
BARAKA: I'll bet you they did.
CHUNG: But the ADL associate national director, Kenny Jacobson, has agreed to respond.
Mr. Jacobson, thank you for being with us.
Why is it that you so strenuously object to Mr. Baraka's poem?
KENNY JACOBSON, ASSOCIATE NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ADL: Well, just listening to Mr. Baraka's comments, they would be laughable if they weren't so serious.
We're in a situation now in the world where we're having the greatest explosion of anti-Semitism that we've seen since World War II.
CHUNG: Let's keep this on the poem itself.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: And the question is, what is it? Doesn't he have a right as a poet to say what he wants to say?
JACOBSON: Everyone has a right to say what they -- everyone also has a right to respond to hatred. And, in this particular case, because he represents the state of New Jersey, there's an obligation for the state to look into his responsibilities.
The simple fact is, the 9/11 myth is the biggest lie that's been told about the Jewish people since the days of Hitler.
BARAKA: Nobody is saying anything about the Jewish people.
JACOBSON: And the simple fact is that this started in Lebanon on September 17; 60 percent of Muslims in nine different countries believe that Jews are responsible for 9/11.
This is a very, very dangerous thing. This isn't just something abstract. This kind of thinking leads to very dangerous consequences. And to have Mr. Baraka representing the state of New Jersey, repeat this kind of lie, is anti-Semitic.
CHUNG: Well, in the same poem, sir...
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: May I bring your attention to the poem itself?
In the poem itself, he talks about the persecution of Jews. And so you say he's anti-Semitic, that he's anti-Israel. In fact, in the very same poem, he talks about the persecution of Jews.
JACOBSON: I just know the impact of these kinds of words around the world.
The simple fact is, this is an outright lie, the biggest lie that we've seen. The lie that Israel knew about this, the fact is, the story really was that it is believed in the Islamic world that, not only did Israel know about it, but that Israel and the Jews were behind it. "60 Minutes" did a piece and they interviewed people in...
CHUNG: Mr. Jacobson.
JACOBSON: Yes.
CHUNG: You know the governor of New Jersey cannot remove him. The committee that selected him cannot remove him by law. So what do you want done?
JACOBSON: Well, No. 1, first of all, we're very pleased that the governor spoke out. And the truth is, there was a predecessor to Mr. Baraka. And it would be nice if they could replace Mr. Baraka or supersede his role because of the hatred that is not representative of what the people of New Jersey should be seeing.
So the fact is, this is not just a few comments. This speaks to something that is going on around the world. And it's a very, very dangerous trend. This big lie is leading to anti-Semitism all around the world. In Europe, we see this. We surely see that in the Middle East. This has nothing to do with whether one agrees on a particular Israeli policy. That's a straw man.
The reality is, this is classic anti-Semitism. I lost a cousin...
CHUNG: Mr. Jacobson, I thank you so much. I thank you for being with us.
And we're going to turn once again to Mr. Baraka.
Isn't this insulting to the memory, though, of those who died at 9/11?
BARAKA: There were a lot of black people that died in 9/11.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Aside from are what Mr. Jacobson is talking about and the ADL is saying, isn't it insulting to these people who died, to the relatives of the people who died?
BARAKA: You mean, did black people die in it? Were there black people? Were there Asian people who died in there? Were there Latinos that died? Were there Haitians that died? Of course there were. Nobody is talking about that.
The only thing they resent is that I'm saying that the United States knew, Israelis knew, England, France, Germany, Russia knew. They warned the United States previously. You can check that with Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. You can check it in several Web sites across the world. And for him to say that by saying that, I'm anti- Semitic, that's the greatest kind of canard that I've heard.
CHUNG: Do you have any kind of intention of resigning?
BARAKA: Oh, of course not.
CHUNG: Will you resign?
BARAKA: No. Plus, I haven't been paid either.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: The $10,000
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: Right. I haven't been paid.
CHUNG: Aside from that, wouldn't the honorable thing to do...
BARAKA: Why should I resign? This is my job, to bring attention to poetry. You don't think I'm doing that?
CHUNG: Well, of course you are, but it's probably not in the light that you had intended. Or was it, in fact? Is this your intent? Was it your intent?
BARAKA: I underestimated the fools and the bigots in the world. But certainly, I knew that what I said would be bring more attention to poetry than has been brought there heretofore.
CHUNG: So you intended for this controversy to blossom.
BARAKA: I intended to read my poetry as the flagship poet of the state, obviously. Look, that poem was written a year ago.
CHUNG: Yes, I recognize that.
BARAKA: That poem has been all over the world. I read that poem in German, Switzerland...
CHUNG: And before you were chosen as poet laureate.
BARAKA: ... Spain, Portugal, Africa. I read that poem all over the world. What they should do...
CHUNG: Well, I thank you.
BARAKA: OK.
CHUNG: May I thank you for being us?
BARAKA: Thank you very much. Thank you.
CHUNG: We appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: The controversy sparked calls throughout New Jersey that the position of poet laureate be eliminated entirely.
When we come back: Oh, captain, my captain, none other than William Shatner.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As Christmas Day itself draws near, we can't help but think back to that legendary time so many years ago; wise men on a trek following a star. That's right. We're talking about "Star Trek." But William Shatner hasn't let his role as Captain James Tiberius Kirk put him in a cage. He's gone from J.T. To T.J. and beyond, as we found out this summer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "STAR TREK")
WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: Captain Kirk, ready to beam up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG (voice-over): More than 30 years since his career-defining role beamed him into television sets, 71-year-old William Shatner is still working. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: I don't have a gun. My ancestors were quakers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: While acting roles still come his way, he's better known for simply being William Shatner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: And I'm telling you, the undead are a real pain in the neck. Thank you. Seriously, though, vampires are almost impossible to kill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: On August 3, he begins hosting a Sci-Fi Channel horror series. Looking back at some scary B-movies, long forgotten.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: Time now to return to the world of the ancient undead blood-sucking freaks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: He took his Captain Kirk character to the big screen for a series of seven "Star Trek" feature films, grossing more than $400 million. But he's done far more than "Star Trek." Shatner remained on television through the '80s and '90s as a tough cop on "T.J. Hooker," and hosting stories of real-life heroes in "Rescue 911."
In the late '90s, he became the spokesperson for an Internet travel start-up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: We're saving a truckload of gasket money. You coming along for the ride?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: He starred as himself in a series of self-mocking ads for Priceline.com. He chose to be paid in stock options, cashing in half his Priceline stock in early 1999, bringing him an estimated $3 million, before losing much of the rest when the Internet boom busted.
His first two marriages ended in divorce. His third ended in tragedy. On August 9, 1999, Shatner made a horrific discovery. He returned to his Studio City home and found his wife of two years, Noreen, at the bottom of their swimming pool. She had been battling alcoholism, and the autopsy found alcohol and sleeping pills in her system.
The next day, Shatner shared his loss and his grief in a statement outside his gated home.
W. SHATNER: Her laughter, her tears and her joy will remain with me the rest of my life.
CHUNG: A year-and-a-half later, he married his fourth wife, 42- year-old horse trainer Elizabeth Martin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER: This next song is a straight up admission of a singer with a serious case of dance fever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: And tonight, Shatner begins hosting another cable series, "One-Hit Wonders" on VH-1. He seems an unlikely choice since he's made a career of coming back, decade after decade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
W. SHATNER (singing): I love the night life, I love to boogie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: When we come back, we'll beam up the captain himself.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We went on a little star trek of our own just now, trekking through the career and personal history of William Shatner, including the sudden death of his wife Noreen.
He and his new wife, Elizabeth, sat down with me this summer. And we began with his reaction to that tape from the time of Noreen's death.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Look at you, you're just tearing up when you talk about Noreen.
W. SHATNER: I hadn't seen that piece. I haven't seen that piece. But it's a long story. And things go on.
CHUNG: Well, why don't we talk about the two of you. You got married. And because you met talking about one particular thing, and that was the two deaths you experienced. Your wife and your husband. Elizabeth? Your husband died of cancer?
ELIZABETH SHATNER, WILLIAM SHATNER'S WIFE: Yes, he did. He fought cancer, lymphoma of the bone, for a year and a half and died in '97. Within about the same week, the same date almost, that Noreen died in August, first week of August.
W. SHATNER: Two years earlier.
E. SHATNER: Two years earlier.
CHUNG: So how did you meet?
W. SHATNER: Well...
CHUNG: What exactly was it?
W. SHATNER: She...
E. SHATNER: I wrote a sympathy note.
W. SHATNER: Wrote a sympathy note, and...
CHUNG: Out of the blue?
W. SHATNER: No. My wife's -- Liz is a horse trainer, and my passion is horses. And I had seen -- seen the Martin stables in California sort of in the distance. And I knew of her story, of nursing her husband for a year and a half. And so four, five months after Noreen died, I was trying to get through the sympathy notes, the notes of condolence.
And there was one note that was beautifully written, and I read it, and it was Elizabeth. And sometime after that, I called her and we started talking on the phone, and she had been through the grief processes -- mystical, strange, but almost definable thing. And she had been through it. And she helped me through that whole process.
CHUNG: Did you happen to know that she was so gorgeous?
W. SHATNER: I knew she was very beautiful, but I didn't know how intelligent and bright and funny and all that.
E. SHATNER: Oh, thank you.
CHUNG: Awfully nice. It's awfully nice.
W. SHATNER: We made a movie called "Groom Lake," which is out now. A memorial to Mike and to Noreen. Sort of a spiritual love story.
CHUNG: Now, you are doing something that I think is just crazy, wacky. But it's not the first time, huh?
W. SHATNER: Crazy, wacky?
CHUNG: Yeah. At 71, you're into auto racing, right?
W. SHATNER: I am. Yes. Well, I've raced now in two Grand Prix. I've learned to drive a car fast. I have the second fastest time in Washington.
CHUNG: There you go. Give me five on that.
W. SHATNER: Right there, and the other one too.
CHUNG: What does she think about it?
E. SHATNER: The actual car racing, I'm gaining appreciation for it more and more. Didn't like it at first. But the events are always -- the last two times have been for charity, so it makes it worthwhile.
W. SHATNER: She's worried about me.
E. SHATNER: Definitely worried.
CHUNG: Yeah, yeah. You and Paul Newman. And he's still racing, isn't he?
W. SHATNER: I'm not sure that Paul gets in the car anymore, I'm not sure. I don't know. He was really good.
CHUNG: All right. So, let's go on to my favorite, those Priceline commercials. I saw you watching our little story, you know. You were kind of shaking your head. Why?
W. SHATNER: Well, wacky and crazy. What is wacky? You take a chance. You walk a tightrope. What is wacky and crazy? Is it stupid? Is wacky and crazy stupid to somebody else?
CHUNG: No, I don't think that.
W. SHATNER: No, but you think it's wacky and crazy, does he think it's stupid? It's such a fine line that you walk when you're wacky and crazy. It's safer not to be wacky and crazy.
CHUNG: Well, you're right, because you're that other part, too loopy. Right?
W. SHATNER: Yeah.
CHUNG: Yeah. But the Priceline thing, tell me something, is that a parody on celebrity? Is that William Shatner doing a joke? Or, you know, what is it? It's so captivating, I'm telling you.
W. SHATNER: Well, that's the reason -- I think that's the reason why. The line between the sincerity of a true performance and the farcical irony, however you might characterize what it is I'm doing, is so fine that you don't know when you tread it. You don't know where it is. But somewhere in that area is an ironic look at that.
CHUNG: And that is what?
W. SHATNER: That is a performance character.
CHUNG: Got it. It's sort of like the lounge lizard, no?
W. SHATNER: I think so, but less. CHUNG: Right. Not so overt?
W. SHATNER: Exactly.
CHUNG: There you go. We analyzed it. So the Priceline -- you're back with them. You left them, and now you're back?
W. SHATNER: No, I never really left. I was doing radio commercials for them. They didn't know which way to go. And now we're planning a new campaign. And it will be out in September. You'll be able to see and hopefully laugh with it.
CHUNG: Elizabeth, how come he just continues working and working? He never stops. I mean, he's got it; he gets jobs like that. And at 71, he will not stop. I get the impression. True?
E. SHATNER: He couldn't. He has too much energy.
CHUNG: And he doesn't look 71 at all.
E. SHATTER: Absolutely not.
CHUNG: Are both of you great riders and horse people?
E. SHATNER: We love them. That's our passion.
W. SHATNER: She's a professional who recently got her amateur status back because she married me.
(CROSSTALK)
E. SHATNER: As far as the riding and training, but then I'm maintaining my judge's card, so I judge different breeds.
W. SHATNER: So yes, she's a fabulous rider and horse trainer. And I love to ride. And riding a horse, at its peak and its perfection and its ultimate way is not dissimilar to driving a car fast. The balance. The -- a car needs to be balanced, front or rear balance. A horse needs to be contained, needs to be balanced as well, shoulder, rear end.
CHUNG: At some level, you have control but you don't, right?
W. SHATNER: Yes.
E. SHATNER: There's an edge. There's an edge.
W. SHATNER: There's an edge. The limits of adhesion in both horse, car and life.
CHUNG: Oh, there you go. You took it right out there.
W. SHATNER: I took a straight line out to the infinity.
CHUNG: And I thank you so much. It's great to see you.
W. SHATNER: Thank you.
E. SHATNER: Pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Bill Shatner's "One-Hit Wonders" still appear on VH-1. His movie "Groom Lake" is due out on DVD. And it you need a last- minute Christmas gift, this isn't an endorsement, but just information for you, OK? Priceline released William Shatner bobbleheads this fall.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow, it's Christmas Day. And our all-star lineup includes music from Andrea Bocelli and Rod Stewart, and no music, but wonderful talk from Kevin Kline and Carrie Fisher.
"LARRY KING LIVE" is next.
Thank you so much for watching. And we hope you have a great Christmas. We'll see you tomorrow night.
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