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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
11th Hour Shoppers Hit the Stores; Lingerie Barbie?
Aired December 24, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, HOST: Today on this Christmas Eve edition of TALKBACK LIVE, we offer you a sleigh full of tempting packages, including the congressman who painted his lawn jockey white; everything you ever wanted to know about Bill Clinton packaged for television; a Barbie doll decked out for a honeymoon, along with her pregnant pal; and a job watching porn videos. Only women need apply.
It's all wrapped up for you. TALKBACK LIVE starts right now.
Oh, all these wonderful people showing up on Christmas Eve. We sure appreciate it.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE . I'm Carol Costello, in for Arthel Neville this Christmas Eve.
Oh, boy, do we have a fun show planned. So, grab some egg nog and sit tight. Not everyone is as organized as you are. Plenty of people are 11th-hour shoppers desperately looking for something to fill the stocking.
So we decided to send Sam Greenfield to Rockefeller Center in New York City to find out what everyone is buying in these last hours of Christmas Eve.
Oh, you look cold.
SAM GREENFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, I just appear cold. Everybody else is cold.
Carol, it's beautiful out here. We're at Rockefeller Center. Behind me is the Christmas tree, which was lit just around Thanksgiving time, with a beautiful array of lights. We've got people shopping everywhere. It's a wonderful, wonderful scene down here. We'll be talking to some people in a few minutes.
But right now, I just want to thank the crew, because they have been here since 5:00 a.m.
COSTELLO: Oh!
GREENFIELD: Yes.
So, when I came in and said, "Man, it's cold," I got smacked around as a sign of tribute. (LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: You got smacked around on Christmas Eve. That's a shame.
GREENFIELD: It's a tough crew.
So, we're going to be talking to some people. And we'll be coming back a little bit later and find out some people who are out of town, in town, and what they're doing. Are they last-minute shoppers or just taking in the sights of the beautiful midtown that's New York City?
COSTELLO: OK, we can't wait to see what you find.
GREENFIELD: Thanks a lot.
COSTELLO: Sam, we're going to get back to you a little later on.
GREENFIELD: Good enough.
COSTELLO: But right now: Why would a congressman paint his lawn jockey white? North Carolina Republican Representative Cass Ballenger is already on shaky ground for saying he had segregationist feelings after dealing with Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. He's already apologized for that.
Well, now he's gone and painted the cast iron lawn jockey outside of his front door white. Local black leaders have criticized the statue as racially insensitive.
And here to talk about this is Deborah Perry, a political commentator and co-author of "Unfinished Business: A Democrat and a Republican Take on the 10 Most Important Issues Women Face." She's the Republican side of that authorship.
Welcome, Deborah.
DEBORAH PERRY, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.
COSTELLO: So, Cass Ballenger has someone go out to his front yard and paint this lawn jockey white. Is that a good strategy?
PERRY: Yes, that's a lot of us former staffers had to do for our bosses on Capitol Hill.
Look, he hid. He made absolutely unexcusable remarks about Cynthia McKinney, who is no longer going to be a member of Congress. And he replied those remarks, saying, in some degree, that he thought she was a less-than-pleasant individual and, therefore, felt segregationist towards an entire race based upon his feelings against one particular member of Congress who happens to be an African- American woman.
There's no excuse for it. But it was a nice gesture to actually take his jockey, which was formerly black, that needed to be repainted and actually paint it white.
COSTELLO: Are you being facetious?
PERRY: Am I being facetious?
No, that's his way of trying to express goodwill. Cass Ballenger, if you look at his voting record, is not a racist. This is not a Trent Lott situation. He's not in a leadership position. And he did apologize for his remarks. They're inexcusable, undoubtedly inexcusable. But he had his staffer come out and repaint the statue that needed repainting and painted it white as a good gesture.
COSTELLO: As a goodwill gesture.
So, joining us right now: civil rights attorney Avery Friedman.
Hello, Avery.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi, Carol. How are you?
COSTELLO: I'm pretty good.
So, was this a goodwill gesture on the congressman's part?
FRIEDMAN: Well, he's from Hickory, North Carolina. And black folks down there are calling him Hickory dickory Lott.
Now, I don't think that's really fair, because the reality is that the White Citizens Council loved Trent Lott. But you know what? He's voted for humanitarian and human rights bills. There's actually a split in the black community in North Carolina about what he did.
but painting the lawn jockey, Carol, is really a metaphor. And it is painting over the racial past. I think black and white Americans are going to look in 2003 to see if he's voting not black or white, but if he votes fair.
COSTELLO: Really? You think it's a metaphor?
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
COSTELLO: Why not just take it out of his front lawn?
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Why not burn it in a pile of ashes?
FRIEDMAN: I don't know why it was there in the first place.
COSTELLO: Well, it was a family heirloom.
FRIEDMAN: I would have felt happier to have it removed.
COSTELLO: Right.
Deborah, you want to weigh in? PERRY: Well, Mo here says he wants something in his face, so I'll defer it over to him.
COSTELLO: Oh, Mo. I was going to introduce you later, but I'll introduce you right now.
Mo Rocca, he's comedian with "The Daily Show" and a very smart guy.
MO ROCCA, "THE DAILY SHOW": Well, thank you, Carol.
The problem here is that we live in a multiracial America right now. So, this black-white thing is outdated. So, I want to know, where are the Latino lawn jockeys? Where are the Pacific Islander lawn jockeys? Where are the other lawn jockeys? This seems awfully outdated to me.
COSTELLO: You know, Mr. Rocca, you bring up a good point. I was trying to find the history of lawn jockeys. And I found all different sorts of things on the Internet. And what did you come up with in your researching this subject for your appearance on TALKBACK LIVE?
ROCCA: Are you asking me about the Internet? I thought we were going to talk about pornography later.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: We are. We absolutely are. I'm just struggling to find out the history of the lawn jockey.
ROCCA: I've got to tell you. Look, Cass and Tricia Ballenger are friends of mine, actually. I've known them for years. So I know his heart is in the right place. But it doesn't seem like a great P.R. move on his part.
COSTELLO: Certainly not.
Let's introduce Ian Punnett now, a seminary student and radio talk show host on FM 107 in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Welcome to you as well.
IAN PUNNETT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you. Merry Christmas.
COSTELLO: Merry Christmas to you.
Your feelings on this painting of the lawn jockey?
PUNNETT: Actually, I grew up in the land of cast iron lawn jockeys. I grew up where they were every other lawn. And they were either painted a neutral race or they were ripped out of lawns in the '70s.
I didn't know that anybody still had them, and of the people that still had them, that any were still painted black. And if you look at the metaphor, which I think was sort of an interesting comment of what was done with that lawn jockey, it was whitewashed. It wasn't repainted with detail. It was whitewashed. And this is a whitewash that they're trying to do to try to quickly put this issue behind them.
It's ridiculous that it was even there, even more ridiculous that the splashings of white paint on it is supposed to make it all better.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Hold on for a second, panel.
In light of that, I want to read a comment. This is a quote from Congressman Ballenger. He said that painting the lawn jockey white was removing something the Democrats could use as an image to attack Republicans here. So, it sounds as if he did it for political reasons, not because it hurt anyone's feelings, Deborah.
PUNNETT: Or that it represented his heart. Come on, it's just purely a move to try to stave off the kind of political criticism that Trent Lott got that he couldn't -- that he could no longer withstand.
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: Well, he certainly learned from Trent Lott's mistakes. There's no question about it.
Listen, I grew up in the land of palm trees and, ironically, rode horses most of my life. And you don't see too many African-American jockeys out there. So, I think it's very interesting that they were even painted black in the first place. So, if anyone can enlighten me on the history of that, I'd love to know.
PUNNETT: It's a relic of the slave area. It's a relic of the slave area.
(CROSSTALK)
ROCCA: The lawn jockey looks like Derek Jeter to me.
PUNNETT: If you want to see the real lawn jockeys, watch "Gone With The Wind." That was the idea. They took your horses. You came up to the house. That's what the whole thing was supposed to be about.
(CROSSTALK)
ROCCA: You know what? I take that back. He looks more like Tiger Woods.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Hold off a second. I want to get some audience comments on this.
Stand up, Chris, from Virginia. What do you have to say about this whitewashing of the lawn jockey? CHRIS: Well, I don't know about the whitewashing, but it's my understanding in research that, during the slave times and the underground railroad, they were in the lawns of ones that were helping the runaway slaves during that period of time.
COSTELLO: Right. They were put at the entrances of the underground railroad and a ribbon was tied, I think, around the arm of the lawn jockey. And that showed the escaping slaves the way to go.
PUNNETT: That's a symbol of the ribbon, not of the lawn jockey, I think.
COSTELLO: I think that's probably true.
PERRY: But it's all a matter of interpretation. And that's the problem.
If we really want to have a conversation about race relations in this country, we need to do a lot more than just debating on whether we should continue to have lawn jockeys in people's various front yards. This is more of an issue. And I actually think it's a healthy debate that's coming about out of Trent Lott, talking more about, we've got the civil laws out there that say what we can and can't do and who can we not discriminate it against.
But we need to take that a step further and start talking about more of the institutional racism that still exists in our society and the discriminating practices that still take on. And while people can't get away with it in legal fashion, a lot of minorities, inclusive of African-Americans and others, still feel that America is not a friendly place towards them. And that's the conversation we need to start having.
FRIEDMAN: That's a very good reason to get rid of the lawn jockey, because, however you paint it -- pardon the expression -- however you paint it, it's got to go, because it means different things to different people. Painting it. The smart thing would have been just to pull it off the doggone lawn. We wouldn't have this debate.
COSTELLO: And Deborah did mention this. We're forgetting the underlying reason for this. Here's another Republican who just doesn't get it. He doesn't get that he's hurting a certain segment of society's feelings by putting something like this in his front lawn.
ROCCA: Except people who make lawn jockeys. Seriously, in a slumping economy, everyone is hurting. And the people who manufacture lawn jockeys deserve as much sympathy as the rest of us.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDMAN: We'll put those guys out of business, the lawn jockeys.
ROCCA: Can we talk about porn now?
COSTELLO: No, not yet. We'll have to do this after this break.
ROCCA: Time is running, Carol. I'm serious.
COSTELLO: Time is running. We're going to have to take a break.
Coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE: Why is the government paying women to watch pornography? Oh, Mo, we're going to talk about this. We'll give you all the details.
Plus, we'll check back with Sam Greenfield and those last-minute shoppers in New York.
And that brings us to the "Question of the Day": What's the best Christmas present you've ever received? Call me at 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail TALKBACK@CNN.com.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Today on TALKBACK LIVE: a Barbie doll that's more naughty than nice. Would you stuff it in your kid's stocking?
Our panel is back to debate that and more right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Where else could you have a picture of Santa skiing? Only here at CNN and TALKBACK LIVE. Welcome back, by the way.
If you're a woman, the government wants to know what turns you on. The National Institutes of Health has been paying women as much as $75 to watch porn videos. The study is being conducted through Northwestern University in an attempt to clarify how women's sexual preferences are determined. And, in the words of chief researcher, J. Michael Bailey, the results are going to make big splash.
OK, Mo, since you were so excited about this topic, I'll let you weigh in first.
ROCCA: Well, no, we're if talking about women's response to porn, I can save taxpayers a lot of money and tell you what the response is. They laugh at it. They laugh at porn.
I think a lot of this is about men who want to watch women watch porn. Whatever turns you on. My sources tell me that there's one senator in particular who has fantasized about watching the two senators from Maine watch porn.
PERRY: Who is that?
ROCCA: I don't reveal my sources.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Deborah, it does make you wonder. PERRY: Carol, I gotta say, nobody's asked me if I want to sit down and watch porn. No one is willing to pay me to sit down and watch it.
But it very much speaks volumes about how misguided our NHA -- NIH, rather -- funding is these days. When you look at someone like Representative Dave Weldon, Republican from Florida, who asked the NH -- NIH -- I'm having trouble saying NIH today.
COSTELLO: National Institutes of Health.
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDMAN: It has nothing to do with that.
PERRY: No, wait. just hold on.
But here, three years ago, he asked for research to be done and just to see if there's any relationship between certain vaccinations for children and autism. And, somehow, NIH couldn't find the money. But now this researcher out of Northwestern makes a simple proposal and, suddenly, boom, he's got his money.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: But, Deborah, the NIH has billions of dollars, I think something like $27.9 billion in funding. And this study is only a small slice of that, $147,000.
FRIEDMAN: Exactly.
PUNNETT: But isn't it nice to know that all of our other health problems have been solved that now we can worry about women's reaction to pornography? Honestly, there isn't one more disease out there deserving just a little bit more push?
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDMAN: You know what's really interesting?
When they do studies and they fund all sorts of sexuality studies for men, nobody gripes about it. But when we finally start dealing with sexuality and issues that women face...
PERRY: What do you want to do with the information?
FRIEDMAN: What's that?
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Well, I believe the purpose of the study is to see if homosexuality in women is biological by seeing how they react to not only straight sex, but gay sex as well. And they did a similar study with men and they found some interesting things about men.
FRIEDMAN: Yes. And nobody griped about the male study. We're right back to the issues of women and the issues that women face. And who is really griping about it? White male Republicans. That's really the problem.
PUNNETT: Prove that. It just seems like a ludicrous role of government to pay citizens to sit and watch pornography, of any gender. If you had told me about it when it was being done as a male study, believe me, I would have had the same reaction. What is government's role in this story?
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Well, isn't it surprising that the Bush White House has let this sneak through, because they're so on agenda? And it really doesn't sound like anything they'd approve of.
Deborah?
PERRY: Well, I think, first of all, whether it's $140,000 or $1.4 million or $14 million, we have much greater health risks towards the health of this country overall than to focus on and worry whether women are target-specific in terms of homosexuality...
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: ... in the gender.
ROCCA: You've seen the studies, Deborah. You know that women who are watching pornography are not robbing banks. So, if women are watching pornography, they're not committing crimes at the same time. So it's actually -- there's a beneficial purpose here.
PERRY: Oh, I get it.
(LAUGHTER)
PERRY: I've been misguided. Excuse me.
ROCCA: Look, I just want to say, NIH Director Dave Weldon and his wife, Carrie, are good friends of mine. So, I want to trust and defer to them on this process.
PERRY: You have a lot of good friends.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: But, Avery, might this study be helpful as far as -- I don't know. Tell me how this study might be helpful. I'm struggling myself.
FRIEDMAN: Well, let me tell you something.
Again, I think it gets back to sex bias. When studies are being done about Viagra, when studies are being done about men, nobody is whining about it. But when you get into women's issues, all of a sudden, the Republicans start griping about it. The more you can know about your own sexuality and sexuality generally, the better you're going to be. And I think there's wisdom in this kind of a study.
PERRY: No, I think there's no wisdom in this kind of a study. That's what's so hellacious about the whole thing.
FRIEDMAN: How come nobody was complaining when they were doing studies the counterpart of men? And when it comes to studying women, now everyone is complaining.
PUNNETT: Prove that. Prove that. How can you say nobody was complaining? Show me that...
FRIEDMAN: Well, who was complaining?
PUNNETT: Well, I didn't know about it. I promise you, I'll call you the next time.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Before this gets any more out of control, we're going to take a break.
When we come back, we're going to check in again with Sam Greenfield. He's in New York City talking to last-minute shoppers.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: Oh, go ahead, Sam.
GREENFIELD: Oh, when we come back, we're going to be interviewing people, especially one man who holds one of the most vaunted, storied jobs in all of New York. That's going to be coming up.
COSTELLO: Can't wait for that. Thank you very much.
We'll also talk more about this Barbie doll, a very naughty Barbie doll.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd like to wish everybody back in the states a merry Christmas, especially my lovely wife, Tracy (ph), and my kids, my mom and grandmom, the whole United States. Merry Christmas and happy new year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd like to say Merry Christmas to my boys, Dakota (ph) and Gavin (ph). I love you boys. I'll be home soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Merry Christmas to you guys, too, and for all the troops overseas. Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
It seems consumers aren't really spending that much more on holiday gifts this year than they did last year. And that's unlikely to change, no matter how desperate Christmas Eve shoppers are. According to American Express, 75 percent of last-minute shoppers are men. And it seems desperation breeds generosity. Those Johnny-come- latelies drop an average of $1,900 on gifts.
So, let's go back to Rockefeller Center in New York City, where we find Sam Greenfield, to see if this holds true.
A lot of male shoppers out there, Sam?
GREENFIELD: There's a ton of shoppers out here.
In fact, I'm talking to a fellow who is not really shopping, but he is an usher at Radio City Music Hall.
Your name is Allister (ph).
ALLISTER, USHER, RADIO CITY MUSIC HALL: That is correct.
GREENFIELD: And you've seen a lot of famous people. Who is the person who knocked you out most?
ALLISTER: The person who knocked me out most was Siegfried & Roy when they were at Radio City and they had their magic show there.
GREENFIELD: Oh, that was good for you?
ALLISTER: That was very good.
GREENFIELD: Did they let you near the tigers?
ALLISTER: No. We didn't get that close to the tigers. But just having the huge stage, their presence, everybody loved the show.
GREENFIELD: Thanks a lot for being here. I appreciate it.
ALLISTER: Thank you very much.
GREENFIELD: There are some tigers behind us.
Here we have a family, an entire family of people who are shopping, and, behind them, attention-starved children who need to be in school.
Say hi.
CROWD: Hi!
GREENFIELD: And their father, who is a tired man.
Now, you folks are shopping?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GREENFIELD: And where have you been shopping?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Macy's.
GREENFIELD: Macy's, of course. And have you been to the Christmas tree? You've seen the lights and all that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GREENFIELD: Now, what's your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kathy (ph).
GREENFIELD: Kathy. Pow!
(LAUGHTER)
GREENFIELD: And do you think you're going to get what you want for Christmas?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GREENFIELD: You know this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GREENFIELD: You know this. Maybe it could be someone -- you're too old to go to Santa. You go to Santa?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You went to Santa, right?
GREENFIELD: And that's fun for you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had fun?
GREENFIELD: And, mom, you're going to go completely broke in about two hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I have one more child.
GREENFIELD: You have four? How do you walk? Four is amazing. I have one and it's awful for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a lot of work.
GREENFIELD: OK, we're going to continue with this in just a couple of minutes.
Say hi, everybody. Merry Christmas to everybody here at Rockefeller Center.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: Sam Greenfield. We'll be right back. OK. Thank you. COSTELLO: Oh, Sam, those are some wild kids behind you. Oh, he's having a lot of fun out there, isn't he? We'll get back to him in a bit.
OK, so Susie wants a doll for Christmas and you come across this. It's Barbie, all right, but what exactly is she dressed for? She's wearing a garter belt, thigh-high hose, and a lace-enhanced bustier. And, oh, yes, she has her own PG-14 rating. But is this something you'd buy for your kid? Take a look at Barbie now. It's a whole new Barbie, isn't it?
It's lingerie Barbie, Deborah. Do you have kids?
PERRY: I do not have kids. But I will tell you that Mo is getting awfully hot over here watching Barbie.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: I suspected that.
Mo, your thoughts on Barbie?
ROCCA: Well, seriously, I've looked at different polls. And if you look at this recent Roper poll that I've seen, 60 percent -- I'm sorry -- 62 percent of 13-year-old girls own at least $100 worth of lingerie.
So, look, I think girls need to, instead of being afraid of admitting that they want lingerie, they should be able to have it as a gift. I guess what I'm saying is that Barbie is finally catching up with a post-feminist culture in which young girls, tweens, pre- adolescents, can embrace their enjoyment of bumping and grinding.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Well, Mo, may be joking, but he's closer to the truth than we know, because, have you seen little kids' clothes lately? They're just like big kids' clothes.
(CROSSTALK)
ROCCA: I ain't joking about this.
FRIEDMAN: That's exactly right.
PUNNETT: That's not a trend, I think, that would be in Mattel's best interest or society's best interest to continue to push either.
As I understand it, this was intended for adults, and that they were marketing it for adults.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Yes, but it's sold in a toy store.
PERRY: Fourteen years old, 14-plus. And according to one 14-year-old girl -- I love her quote -- she said, "A 14-year-old would not be caught drop dead playing with a Barbie." So, exactly what type of 14-year-olds are we trying to target this Barbie toy? I think it's 14-year-old boys.
FRIEDMAN: Actually, it's targeted to 14-year-old boys.
PERRY: I say bring back the original.
ROCCA: Fourteen-year-old girls in most Third World countries are already married with children and they need to spice up their sex lives.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Oh, goodness. They're not buying Barbies, though.
PERRY: Wait. I want to know, if Mattel is making $1.5 billion, larger than most countries' GDP, what happened with the original, the Barbie that was this big around? Where did she go? People weren't even happy with her measurements, because she was a little too voluptuous.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: That never changed. They still sell that Barbie.
PERRY: Yes, but you know what? She's not very emblematic of all the kids that eat McDonald's and are overweight these days. So, they need to plump up Barbie to resemble more of what America's kids look like.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: We've had that debate.
We want to talk to Lisa from Philadelphia before we go on.
Do you have kids, Lisa?
LISA: I do.
And what I'm wondering -- I don't have an objection to Mattel producing this. But what I want to know is, when I take my 9-year-old daughter into FAO Schwarz, am I going to see that next to that Barbie, baby doll Barbie, dentist Barbie?
COSTELLO: I guess they have a separate section, but it's in the same toy section.
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDMAN: This is bimbo Barbie. It's a different section.
COSTELLO: OK, panel, let Lisa talk now. Go ahead, Lisa. LISA: I don't know how I would really explain that Barbie. I can explain the dentist Barbie. I can explain teacher Barbie. I don't need to explain those. But I think lingerie Barbie I would need to explain. And I don't know how I would do that.
FRIEDMAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Why are you explaining anyhow?
The fact is, the best message you can make to your children is, don't buy the doll. Forget about it. It's bimbo Barbie. I think it's for 14-year-old boys, not 14-year-old girls.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: I think it's for grown men.
Hey, did you hear about her friend Midge? They have a Midge doll -- that's Barbie's best friend.
FRIEDMAN: Oh, is that the pregnant one?>
COSTELLO: Yes, she's the pregnant one.
PERRY: Is she married?
COSTELLO: She's married. She wears a wedding ring. And she has a big pregnant stomach. And you can open the stomach and a little curled-up baby falls out.
ROCCA: Isn't that wonderful?
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDMAN: What does that mean?
PUNNETT: I've seen Ken. I know he's not the father.
(LAUGHTER)
PUNNETT: And this lingerie Barbie is not going to work either.
PERRY: In all seriousness, this still raises questions about how we continue to socialize girls in this country. These girls who are playing with these Barbies read "17" magazine, grow up, read "Cosmopolitan" magazine.
And it's still about -- if you look at the taglines of these fashion magazines, it's how to please your man in bed, and buy this lipstick, and it will transform your life. And it proves that women feel, as they grow into adulthood, that it's not about having any self-worth. It's very much about who we are on the outside. And then it doesn't encourage women to be self-thinking individuals who take great pride in who they are.
COSTELLO: Oh, but I know Mo's down there shaking his head. But I have to say this, Mo, that the person who delivered Midge's baby was Dr. Barbie.
ROCCA: Great. Is she a midwife or she is an OB-GYN?
(CROSSTALK)
ROCCA: The mother who is asking that question in the audience, I think that she should let her daughter play with Barbie while she watches pornography. I think it would be a great bonding, mother- daughter thing.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: Hey, that's a good point there.
OK, we're going to have to take a break right now.
Judy Woodruff will keep you in the holiday spirit today as she hosts "Christmas Around the World." That airs live at 4:30 p.m. Eastern time right here on CNN.
But up next: Do the 10 Commandments belong in a court of law? A judge rules on it and then changes his mind.
I'll tell you why right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
(APPLAUSE)
COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. A Ten Commandments monument, a big one, is staying put for the time being. The two-and- a-half ton monument sits in Alabama's judicial building. It has been ruled unconstitutional by a US district judge, Myron Thompson. However, just yesterday, Thompson stayed his own order to have it removed. He wants to give a federal appeals court time to review the case.
You may remember the monument was put into place by another judge, Chief Justice Roy Moore, because he believes the commandments are the moral foundation of the law. And I'm telling you this statue is big. It was actually designed by Judge Moore himself. It weighs 5,000 pounds.
FRIEDMAN: Right.
COSTELLO: So Avery, should it stay there, should it go?
FRIEDMAN: You know, this is a constitutional no-brainer, Carol. The fact is -- I teach this stuff. This judge has to understand, if he wants to be a judge, sit on the bench. If he wants to be a Sunday school teacher, take his $5,000 Ten Commandments. And you want to know why the judge held it -- wait a minute -- you want to know why the judge held it up? This is going to the federal court of appeals. All the judges are going to affirm that it's unconstitutional. And in 2003, Carol the US Supreme Court is going to let that ban stand. That's got to get out of the courtroom, into the Sunday school.
COSTELLO: Well, you know, the interesting thing is he actually won his judgeship because he ran and people voted for him. And he ran as the Ten Commandments judge.
FRIEDMAN: Yeah.
COSTELLO: So perhaps people are more in favor of this than we know in Alabama.
FRIEDMAN: Well, the fact is it's a jingoistic campaign, it's a phony campaign. The judge knows that what he's doing is unconstitutional, and the US Supreme Court ultimately, with this present court next year, will shut that down.
COSTELLO: Ian, do you want to weigh in on this?
PUNNETT: Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, frankly, I would go another direction, and I would say add to these, with the totems about law and order that come from all aspects of the religious community; not take away. But that's just my view.
It will be ironic; I have no doubt, probably that my colleague here is right. But just think of the irony of that coming from a Supreme Court building, which is heavily invested with religious symbolism and imagery. And if the Supreme Court justices are going to be consistent about this, then right after they make that order they got to pick up a sand blasting gun and they've got to go all through the Supreme Court building and all through Washington. And it will be very difficult to imagine that that's what they're going to do, but they'll insist that Alabama will.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I say something here please?
COSTELLO: I think Mo wants to interject something. He's acting like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) child in the corner. Sorry Mo, it just seems like that to me. But go ahead; state your point of view.
ROCCA: We just met, Carol. It's a little much I think. OK.
No, here's what I'm saying. Is that the state shouldn't by no means endorse one particular religion. But the Ten Commandments are different. They're in the Old Testament, so they speak to -- they're universal; they speak to Christians and Jews. Now, if those damn Muslims could just accept the word of god, then we'd be fine with this.
COSTELLO: Mo, Mo, Mo. Let's go to an audience member right now. Len (ph), from New Jersey, what do you have to say?
LEN: Well, what's the difference between having the Ten Commandments there and putting your hand on a bible every time you go in a courtroom to say you'll swear to tell the truth?
COSTELLO: A very good point, says our audience -- Avery.
FRIEDMAN: And actually, there's an answer to that question. You have the choice. If you believe in the Judeo Christian doctrine, you swear on a bible. But for those people who do not, they are permitted in a federal courtroom and most state courts to affirm the truth. So there's a big difference. That doesn't mean anything.
COSTELLO: Yeah, but doesn't this bring back the hold pledge of allegiance argument that our Constitution was based on god?
FRIEDMAN: Well, the Constitution, in fact, is not based on god. It recognizes the separation. In fact, in the first amendment, our holiest amendment, if you will, the founders really understood the importance of separating church and state. And you know something? As conservative as this Supreme Court is, they're going to ban that Alabama judge from doing what he's doing.
COSTELLO: But Avery, it still says "One nation under god."
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely. But that doesn't enforce religion. There's a big difference.
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDMAN: Let me finish. There's a big difference between the symbols and actually inculcating specific religion. If, for example, a Buddhist or someone that doesn't believe in the Ten Commandment is appearing before a judge in Alabama, and that's the foundation, there's something wrong. And you know what? Our founders had it right. That separation is critical in ensuring rights under the first amendment.
PERRY: I'll try to be serious here for a moment, but it's very difficult with Mo in the same room here. To be serious, in 1791, when the first amendment to the Constitution was ratified, our forefathers put a lot of thought into the separation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.
PERRY: And keeping the powers separate between church and state. This clearly is a violation of the Constitution. I think more importantly, we should decide what to do with the monument in actually melting it down and debating on what it should become into, such as a dining room table or something more useful.
COSTELLO: It's a doozy. We have to -- hey, let's go to Charlotte (ph) in California. She's on the phone. Charlotte (ph), do you think this thing should stay in the courthouse in Alabama?
CHARLOTTE: Absolutely not. There is a separation of church and state. I am horrified that these judges are afraid to make a precedent ruling. And that is a problem, because judges are elected and appointed and they have to kowtow to certain people, such as the Bush administration, and it is horrifying. (CROSSTALK)
PERRY: This has nothing to do with the Bush administration.
PUNNETT: I'm really reluctant -- if we can, just for a second, before we start making ourselves out to be so smart, like we're just the first ones that figured out how the Constitution was supposed to be read, is that really, if you look at about 150 years worth of our leaders, going back to the founding fathers, in fact, steeped our country in religious imagery and religious symbolism and religious language. So, look, I'm not saying that this issue hasn't been politicized, but if we go back to what the founding fathers intended and how they lived their lives, it's much closer to what this judge is doing in Alabama than what we're doing now.
FRIEDMAN: That has nothing to do with an independent judiciary. Nothing to do with it, nothing.
PUNNETT: Well, an independent judiciary doesn't have anything to do with (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But the founding fathers meant something different.
FRIEDMAN: You have 200 years of precedent which rejects that argument.
COSTELLO: You know, Avery, the most interesting thing to me about this is this judge did this on his own.
FRIEDMAN: Absolutely.
COSTELLO: He designed the statue, he had it made, he paid for it. He had it put in the courthouse. He did everything by himself.
FRIEDMAN: Yeah. And you know what? Let's have him take that $5,000 granite and move it over to Sunday school where it belongs.
COSTELLO: 5,000 pounds.
FRIEDMAN: It doesn't belong in a courtroom.
COSTELLO: OK. We're going to have to take a break. Thank you, panel.
Up next: people are going ballistic over Powerball. That's right, someone could become a mega millionaire on Christmas day. But isn't that a little tacky? We'll talk to ticket buyers and get your reaction right after this break.
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COSTELLO: Wow. That was beautiful, wasn't it? It's snowing in Washington for Christmas day, as we take a look at the White House. Tomorrow is Christmas day, as you know, and Christians everywhere will be celebrating the birth of Christ. But others might be celebrating for a different reason. They could become a mega millionaire winning that big Powerball jackpot.
CNN's Michael Okwu is watching tickets being snapped up in Greenwich, Connecticut. Oh Michael, it's cold, but people are out in force.
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's the understatement of the day. In fact, Connecticut lottery officials here tell us that they are selling these tickets at a rate of about 9,400 a minute, if you can actually believe that. And a lot of the people who are buying these tickets are coming in from outside the state, largely because this is one of only about 23 states and the territories around the United States where you can actually buy these tickets.
So they've been coming from in from Brooklyn and Queens, New York and parts of New Jersey, and laying down as much as $400 -- Carol.
COSTELLO: $400? One person buying $400 worth of tickets?
OKWU: I know. I mean, it sounds like a little Christmas (ph) embellishment there, but the fact is that we've talked to several people today who have spent that much, largely because they find out -- their co-workers find out or their relatives find out that they're making the drive or taking the train into Connecticut and they say, hey, you mind floating another couple tickets my way?
In fact, I'm going to ask this lady right here, where are you from? No, she doesn't want to talk to me. Where are you guys from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York.
OKWU: You're from New York. Whereabouts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly Bronx, New York.
OKWU: Bronx, New York. How much are you spending today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, I'm going to spend only $50, that's all.
OKWU: $50. Now you say only, but that's a lot of money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a lot of money, but considering that you have a jackpot of $280 million, you got to go for it, man. There's a lot of poor kids outside that need some help, you know? So let's go -- if I win, let's go and help those kids.
OKWU: So you heard what he said? I mean, you know, it's worth it. To him, it's $50, but it's a small investment. The fact is, he's hoping that he's going to win, just like a lot of other people I talked to today. But your chances are only about one in 120 million, if you can believe that. But it's not stopping people from playing.
COSTELLO: No. look at that line behind you. It's crazy. Hey, is anyone going to give the Powerball tickets they buy to someone else, to a loved one for Christmas? Put them under the tree?
OKWU: Carol, did you ever hear that fat chance and slim chance mean the same thing?
COSTELLO: Yeah, I understand, Michael. Thanks so much. Reporting live from Greenwich, Michael Okwu.
We have a comment from the audience on this Powerball thing, because we were talking about having the Powerball lottery done at this particular time of the year. I mean, should the drawing be held on Christmas day?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I just think people who think they're going to win the Power lotto have about as much chance of being struck by lightning twice. And so I think there really ought to be some kind of a law that prevents people from spending their paycheck and throwing it away on a lotto purchase, where they have absolutely no chance of winning at all.
COSTELLO: Oh, it's crazy. A one in 120 million chance in winning. It's just insane.
Mo, talking about insane, should we get your thoughts on this?
ROCCA: Well, look, 30 percent of the revenue that's generated by this will go to educational programs, environmental awareness. And I know in Florida that a lot of the money goes to helping seniors. Many of these seniors are indigent because they're gambling addicts. So there's a beautiful circularity to all of this.
COSTELLO: You know, I never thought of it that way. But perhaps that's true. Ian, comment.
PUNNETT: Well, I'm not much on the lottery myself, but I can't be too critical, because my wife really loves it. And so she would probably want me to have Michael grab five bucks worth of tickets for us too.
COSTELLO: Well, should it be played on Christmas day, though? I mean, the true meaning of the holiday. I mean, what would Jesus do?
PUNNETT: Well, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that if you are a person of faith, you have to look very sincerely at the implications of what you do on religious holidays. And there will be lots of folks who will just say, well, it's the spirit of being together, it's what everybody's doing, I'm going to do it too.
I'm not actually getting the tickets on Christmas. But if they announce it and I win on Christmas, that's fine. It's a little Christmas miracle.
ROCCA: Can you imagine if Jesus won $160 million worth of frankincense? That would be kind of cool.
PERRY: Is it going to get people out of church? I mean, when are they going to make this announcement? I have a better suggestion, and perhaps during the Super Bowl may be a good time for Powerball.
But, you know what it is? It is gambling. We have to admit it. That's what it's about. And while Mo's correct, 30 percent of the revenues do tend to go towards good causes, sometimes those causes are not quite what they're supposed to be in the fact that a lot of that money goes to the administrative end towards better causes.
So we want to make sure that, while we keep our eye on the big prize, that we continue to work hard on the society and not get caught up in the quick fix.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: Someone is interrupting. Who's hand is that?
ROCCA: I wanted to say very quickly, actually, that Deborah does make a very good point, because a lot of people's lives are ruined afterwards. Studies show that lottery winners do not have successful lives afterwards. So thank you for letting me make that point.
COSTELLO: Absolutely.
FRIEDMAN: You know, we talked about the Constitution earlier. I mean, you've got a constitutional right to be stupid. And you want to know something? Buy all the tickets you want. I think the odds are so incredible there's no chance.
COSTELLO: Well, it's just kind of sad that someone would spend $400 to buy all of those tickets in these poor economic times. It's just not the right time to be doing this.
FRIEDMAN: Right. And plus, you only have 30 percent going to helping the poor and helping the elderly. If you're going to change the law at all, let's up the ante and apply this money to some real important causes.
PUNNETT: Well, lots of people can wait until Thursday to find out if they won.
COSTELLO: OK. Well, enough said on that subject. We have to take a break now. When we come back, we'll take you back to Sam Greenfield at Rockefeller Center in New York and find out what everyone is buying with only hours to go before Christmas. TALKBACK LIVE back right after this.
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COSTELLO: That's so nice. Our prayers are with them to stay safe this holiday season and beyond. Right now, though, we want to go back out to Sam Greenfield, who is live at Rockefeller Center in New York, talking to last-minute shoppers. Actually, it's sort of a holiday tradition to shop at the last minute at Christmas, right?
SAM GREENFIELD: It is a holiday tradition, Carol, to shop at the last minute, to be out among the people, to make sure your wallet is still in the your pants when you get home. These are the things we think of. We're here with Joe (ph). Joe is shopping here in Rockefeller Center. Joe (ph) is a New Yorker, a long-time Giants fan. Now you said something I think is really true. I said to you, "What do you have in the bag?" And you said, like most married guys...
JOE: I don't know. It's my wife's stuff.
GREENFIELD: It's my wife's stuff, that's exactly right. There could be plastic in there for all you know. Absolutely no idea. Now do you usually get what you want for the holidays?
JOE: Most of the time, yes.
GREENFIELD: What's the worst gift you ever got?
JOE: The usual tie, the bad tie.
GREENFIELD: The bad tie? But you have to fake that smile.
JOE: Oh, absolutely. All the time.
GREENFIELD: You do. You have to go, oh, this is a tie. See, that way you haven't lied. That's what you've got to say next time.
JOE: OK. I'm a happy guy.
GREENFIELD: This is a tie and I'm a happy guy. Joe (ph), have a happy holiday.
JOE: OK. Thank you very much.
GREENFIELD: The pleasure is mine. Be good.
JOE: Bye-bye.
GREENFIELD: Joe (ph), everybody.
COSTELLO: Yeah Joe. So that's the secret, huh? Oh, this is a tie.
GREENFIELD: That's the secret. Just let your wife do the shopping, that's all. And carry the bags. We're not husbands, we're porters. It's fun.
COSTELLO: So what was your worst gift?
GREENFIELD: My worst gift was a shirt that looked like the Jackson 5 sold it at Goodwill. It had a collar you could fly home on. It was yellow and red. It looked like a bad hot dog.
It was awful. It was the worst thing I've ever seen.
COSTELLO: A bad hot dog?
GREENFIELD: It was terrible. Worst thing. COSTELLO: Hey, one more question for you before you go. OK, you showed us what we should do if we get a bad gift. What should we do if we get a great gift?
GREENFIELD: If you have a great gift, unfortunately you're obligated to buy someone a gift the next year. So you have to play it down. If it's a great gift, you have to go, oh, all right. And then, the next year you get them something, but you don't let them know you're knocked out. That's what you have to do.
COSTELLO: You're just full of holiday cheer, aren't you?
GREENFIELD: I spread sunshine wherever I go.
COSTELLO: You do. We know that here at CNN. Thank you so much for being with us this afternoon.
GREENFIELD: Thank you. And everybody have a happy holiday, and love to Cassy (ph) and Barbara (ph).
COSTELLO: Thank you very much. Happy holidays to you.
GREENFIELD: Thank you.
COSTELLO: Time to take another break. We'll be back with the question of the day. Call or e-mail now. What was the best Christmas present you ever received? I know you can remember. Think back. We'll be right back.
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COSTELLO: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Before we get to the question of the day, we have to say happy anniversary to Ruth (ph) and Waverly (ph), who are in our audience today. Their 55th wedding anniversary. So Merry Christmas and happy anniversary at the same time. It's just awesome.
OK. Now, for the question of the day. What was the best Christmas present you ever received? Should we start with our panel? And should we start with Mo?
ROCCA: Well, you know what? I don't want to answer that question. I want to answer what it is I want for Christmas this year, because that's what I prepared.
COSTELLO: OK, what do you want?
ROCCA: OK, I want two things. More than anything, I want the leader of North Korea to choke on a gigantic wad of kimchee (ph), because he's a fat, freaky sicko (ph). And I also want a pony.
COSTELLO: Oh, that's so nice. And Deborah, quickly, what was best you received? PERRY: OK. I don't celebrate Christmas, but if I did, what I would want is for the US federal government to pick up the phone and call me and offer to pay me $75 to watch pornography.
COSTELLO: Awesome. Ian, quickly.
PUNNETT: Whatever my boys are going to give me tomorrow morning, and I want the lawn jockey Barbie.
COSTELLO: Avery, quickly.
FRIEDMAN: I got to tell you something, I want to keep talking like everybody else. Because once we stop talking, the democracy dies. So let's keep fighting and talking.
COSTELLO: Thanks to all of you. We are plum out of time. Thanks to Deborah Perry, Avery Friedman, Ian Punnett and Mo Rocca. We had a lot of fun today. Merry Christmas, everyone. Thanks for spending part of your Christmas eve with us.
Again, have a wonderful holiday. I'm Carol Costello in for Arthel Neville. Judy Woodruff is up next with "INSIDE POLITICS."
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