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American Morning
To Clone or Not to Clone?
Aired December 30, 2002 - 09:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The baby that is claimed to be the first human clone, we are told, is supposed to arrive in the United States today. The announcement by Clonaid has reignited debate about the medical ethnics of human engineering life. Some researchers say the technology could be used to help treat disease. Others say the procedure should be banned altogether. Panos Zavos supports cloning with very strict limits. He joins us now from Lexington, Kentucky. And Alta Charo calls cloning irresponsible. She joins us from Madison, Wisconsin this morning.
Welcome to both of you. Glad to have you with us.
PANOS ZAVOS, UNIV. OF KENTUCKY: Good morning, Paula, it's good to be with you.
ZAHN: Thank you.
So, Dr. Zavos, I want to start with a point that you just made to a couple of our producers. You think it's impossible for this baby to come to the United States simply because of passport processing issues, what do you mean?
ZAVOS: That's correct. We did some due diligence overnight and we have established that there is no way that a U.S. passport can be issued for this baby. The minimum is seven days. The maximum is five to six weeks.
Now from the medical point of view, we need to realize that a vaginal-delivered baby should not be flying for two weeks, and a C- section baby should not be flying for four weeks.
ZAHN: All right.
ZAVOS: So those are kinds of problems that we have to deal with here, because it's impossible for this baby to be on a flight today.
ZAHN: So let me ask you this, do you think this baby exists?
ZAVOS: Well, on the basis on what I've seen so far, Paula, it's very difficult for me to believe that, and of course, as we all know, it's nothing to confirm the birth, a picture, scientific documentation, a physical test of any sort.
And therefore, you know, I think hearing from somebody that a baby's born, babies are born everywhere, but the key here is, is a cloned baby born? That needs to be established.
ZAHN: Sir, are there and circumstances under which you support the idea of cloning a human being?
ZAVOS: I do support the idea of human reproductive cloning and human therapeutic cloning for the purposes of realizing that this technology is powerful from the reproductive point of view, it would give a few, a few infertile couples the opportunity to have a child, a biological child of their own, that they wish to have, and I think that we all need to understand that this is not going to be the way of reproductive process for the future, for everyone. It's just for very few people who limited their abilities to have a child.
ZAHN: As you know, doctor, a lot of Americans think that cloning a human being is ethically and morally wrong. Let's go to Alta Charo for her view of all of this. You heard what the doctor just had to say and the circumstances of under which he thinks it would be OK to clone human life. What do you think?
ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN: I think it is an act of medical malpractice to do human reproductive cloning at this time, when animal data shows how very risky it is, how high the frequency is of miscarriage, stillbirth, birth defects and even late-in-life problems with other species when we've been unsuccessful at doing this in our closest animal relatives, the primates.
Their is no excuse for experimenting in the human species before we have adequately understood the problems and created safeguards through research with animals, especially when the conditions that you are suggesting you use it for are not conditions that are life threatening, but conditions that have alternative methods of solution, whether it's adoption, IDF, artificial insemination, et cetera. There is simply no excuse for premature application in the human species.
ZAHN: Dr. Zavos, let's back to the point Alta just made about the serious defect rate that we have seen in cloned animals, and that varies from 10 to 25 percent. While scientists think that might be acceptable in animals, what about in human children?
ZAVOS: Paula, you need to understand here that the same voice or the same words have been used 24 years ago when Bob Edwards was attempting to create Louise Brown (ph), the first test-tube baby, and they said that monsters are going to be born and monsters are going to be created by creating a children in a petri dish.
Then for Dr. Charo, I wanted to remind her that in her hometown today, there is a company by the name of Mintigen (ph) that produces cattle, via cloning, with a repeatable success of 75 percent. This is repeating every day when they create and they produce a cattle in Madison, Wisconsin today in Mintigen (ph) with 75 percent success. Now, we need to understand that the success rate of IDF after 24 years is only 30 percent, only 30 percent, and therefore, I think that we all need to understand that no process out there, whether it's cloning IDF, IVF, IKSI (ph), IUI, inseminations, done or on-site donations, whatever the processes might be, are 100 percent guaranteed, because it isn't.
ZAHN: All right, let's give Alta Charo the final word on that today. CHARO: I think it's a false analogy to suggest that the situation with cloning is the same situation with IVF in the late '70s. Many people do believe IVF moved too quickly into human application or widespread application, but regardless of that, the fact is that the animal data was far more extensive, was far greater, and the experimentation of that was far greater and the safety record in the animal species was far greater than that of animal cloning.
And worse with human cloning, there are actual biological reasons one would expect to have the very problems we have seen, whether it's cattle, or mice or rabbits. In other words, we have biological reasons to look for birth defects, and sure enough, we're finding them. Under those circumstances, what is OK in the agricultural area is not area for the human reproduction area.
ZAHN: You both have given us a lot to debate in our own homes and places of work. Panos Zavos and Alto Charo, thank you for your perspectives, and we wish you both a happy New Year.
ZAVOS: Thank you. Same to you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 30, 2002 - 09:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The baby that is claimed to be the first human clone, we are told, is supposed to arrive in the United States today. The announcement by Clonaid has reignited debate about the medical ethnics of human engineering life. Some researchers say the technology could be used to help treat disease. Others say the procedure should be banned altogether. Panos Zavos supports cloning with very strict limits. He joins us now from Lexington, Kentucky. And Alta Charo calls cloning irresponsible. She joins us from Madison, Wisconsin this morning.
Welcome to both of you. Glad to have you with us.
PANOS ZAVOS, UNIV. OF KENTUCKY: Good morning, Paula, it's good to be with you.
ZAHN: Thank you.
So, Dr. Zavos, I want to start with a point that you just made to a couple of our producers. You think it's impossible for this baby to come to the United States simply because of passport processing issues, what do you mean?
ZAVOS: That's correct. We did some due diligence overnight and we have established that there is no way that a U.S. passport can be issued for this baby. The minimum is seven days. The maximum is five to six weeks.
Now from the medical point of view, we need to realize that a vaginal-delivered baby should not be flying for two weeks, and a C- section baby should not be flying for four weeks.
ZAHN: All right.
ZAVOS: So those are kinds of problems that we have to deal with here, because it's impossible for this baby to be on a flight today.
ZAHN: So let me ask you this, do you think this baby exists?
ZAVOS: Well, on the basis on what I've seen so far, Paula, it's very difficult for me to believe that, and of course, as we all know, it's nothing to confirm the birth, a picture, scientific documentation, a physical test of any sort.
And therefore, you know, I think hearing from somebody that a baby's born, babies are born everywhere, but the key here is, is a cloned baby born? That needs to be established.
ZAHN: Sir, are there and circumstances under which you support the idea of cloning a human being?
ZAVOS: I do support the idea of human reproductive cloning and human therapeutic cloning for the purposes of realizing that this technology is powerful from the reproductive point of view, it would give a few, a few infertile couples the opportunity to have a child, a biological child of their own, that they wish to have, and I think that we all need to understand that this is not going to be the way of reproductive process for the future, for everyone. It's just for very few people who limited their abilities to have a child.
ZAHN: As you know, doctor, a lot of Americans think that cloning a human being is ethically and morally wrong. Let's go to Alta Charo for her view of all of this. You heard what the doctor just had to say and the circumstances of under which he thinks it would be OK to clone human life. What do you think?
ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN: I think it is an act of medical malpractice to do human reproductive cloning at this time, when animal data shows how very risky it is, how high the frequency is of miscarriage, stillbirth, birth defects and even late-in-life problems with other species when we've been unsuccessful at doing this in our closest animal relatives, the primates.
Their is no excuse for experimenting in the human species before we have adequately understood the problems and created safeguards through research with animals, especially when the conditions that you are suggesting you use it for are not conditions that are life threatening, but conditions that have alternative methods of solution, whether it's adoption, IDF, artificial insemination, et cetera. There is simply no excuse for premature application in the human species.
ZAHN: Dr. Zavos, let's back to the point Alta just made about the serious defect rate that we have seen in cloned animals, and that varies from 10 to 25 percent. While scientists think that might be acceptable in animals, what about in human children?
ZAVOS: Paula, you need to understand here that the same voice or the same words have been used 24 years ago when Bob Edwards was attempting to create Louise Brown (ph), the first test-tube baby, and they said that monsters are going to be born and monsters are going to be created by creating a children in a petri dish.
Then for Dr. Charo, I wanted to remind her that in her hometown today, there is a company by the name of Mintigen (ph) that produces cattle, via cloning, with a repeatable success of 75 percent. This is repeating every day when they create and they produce a cattle in Madison, Wisconsin today in Mintigen (ph) with 75 percent success. Now, we need to understand that the success rate of IDF after 24 years is only 30 percent, only 30 percent, and therefore, I think that we all need to understand that no process out there, whether it's cloning IDF, IVF, IKSI (ph), IUI, inseminations, done or on-site donations, whatever the processes might be, are 100 percent guaranteed, because it isn't.
ZAHN: All right, let's give Alta Charo the final word on that today. CHARO: I think it's a false analogy to suggest that the situation with cloning is the same situation with IVF in the late '70s. Many people do believe IVF moved too quickly into human application or widespread application, but regardless of that, the fact is that the animal data was far more extensive, was far greater, and the experimentation of that was far greater and the safety record in the animal species was far greater than that of animal cloning.
And worse with human cloning, there are actual biological reasons one would expect to have the very problems we have seen, whether it's cattle, or mice or rabbits. In other words, we have biological reasons to look for birth defects, and sure enough, we're finding them. Under those circumstances, what is OK in the agricultural area is not area for the human reproduction area.
ZAHN: You both have given us a lot to debate in our own homes and places of work. Panos Zavos and Alto Charo, thank you for your perspectives, and we wish you both a happy New Year.
ZAVOS: Thank you. Same to you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
