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American Morning
Discussion with Eric Margolis
Aired December 31, 2002 - 08:04 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now back to our big story of the morning, Al Qaeda and its network. See, the "Washington Post" this morning says U.S. intelligence officials believe that the al-Qaeda network controls more than a dozen cargo freighters. U.S. officials admit it's hard to track them, bringing into focus again just how difficult tracking terror can be.
Meanwhile, the FBI is still looking for those five men they believe entered the U.S. illegally from Canada last week.
What can the U.S. do to track terror along long borders and the high seas?
Let's turn to Eric Margolis, who's a Canadian born correspondent, author of "War At the Top of the World."
He joins us from Toronto.
Happy new year, Eric.
ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR, "WAR AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD": Happy new year to you, Paula.
ZAHN: Glad to have you with us.
Let's first off talk about this "Washington Post" story.
If this information in the piece is true, how vulnerable are U.S. ports to an attack by these cargo ships?
MARGOLIS: They are vulnerable, Paula. At any given time there are about 125,000 freighters of different types plying the seas. In my misspent youth I used to be operations manager for a line of freighters through the West Indies and I can tell you that there are all kinds of small tramp steamers that can quickly change their paint jobs and their names, designation numbers, even papers. They're like used cars and they move around and they are exceptionally hard to track, even though the Coast Guard is trying to do this and trying to keep a 96 hour notice of arrival to U.S. shores.
Still, many freighters do slip by, particularly up through Central America and around from the West Indies.
ZAHN: Are you pretty much saying it's all but impossible to track, particularly if these ships are changing their designations and their names and their, even their flags they often change? MARGOLIS: No, it is possible to track most of them. The Coast Guard, which is over stretched, is doing a pretty good job of that. But there's still always the danger that a freighter laden with explosives could slip by and what U.S. authorities are worried about is it lying, putting itself aside a cruise ship or the Statue of Liberty or going up the Mississippi River or hitting some high profile target packed with explosives, exploding, causing massive damage.
ZAHN: Do we know where these ships are today?
MARGOLIS: Some of the bin Laden ships are being tracked, some are not. Most of the bin Laden ships, the 15 or 16 ships, were small coastal freighters. They probably couldn't cross the Atlantic. They were carrying dates and cement and animals. This was the period when bin Laden was a businessman, before he started his one man holy war against the U.S. And, but they've changed names and designations and flags. They've been reflagged, as it's called, so often that it's hard to track. And most of these ships are registered in dubious countries like Liberia and Panama, which don't keep good records. They're known as flags of convenience and therefore they're very hard to track.
ZAHN: So when you say the U.S. is tracking some of them and not tracking others, is that simply because they're just so difficult given all these changes that the companies make?
MARGOLIS: That's right. Lots of targets and they keep moving around and when they change their names and paint jobs, it is very difficult to follow all of them, particularly the smaller ships. Not the super tankers. But we're talking about the small coastal trading vessels.
ZAHN: Let's turn our attention now to the five men the FBI is asking all of us to look for. And we'll put their pictures up on the screen now. What do you know about these men and any potential terrorist ties they might have?
MARGOLIS: Paula, very little at this point. We know that their names, by their names, I would say they're Pakistanis. They may just be economic immigrants who just tried to sneak into the United States. There are a lot of those that come across all borders. But on the other hand there's concern that they may be terrorists. Everybody has new year's jitters and it's a legitimate concern. There was a case of an Algerian who tried to sneak into the West Coast in 1999.
The, I talked to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the famous Mounties, and they are being mum on the subject. They claim they knew about it, but they say they don't have any hard evidence that these people came through Canada. They're sort of suggesting they might have come through Mexico.
The Canadian authorities are a bit miffed that the FBI and some conservative commentators in the States keep suggesting that Canada's borders are porous and Canada isn't doing its job in the war on terrorism.
ZAHN: Well, they are porous, aren't they, Eric?
MARGOLIS: Well, they're, they have been porous, Paula, it's true, but no more porous than our own borders in the United States. And the, Canada has had a very liberal immigration policy. In fact, Canada has a huge immigrant population. It's now, Toronto, for example, is the world's most multi-ethnic city. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are almost half foreign born.
ZAHN: Sure.
Eric, before we let you go, you talked about new year's eve jitters. Very quickly here, George Pataki even suggested, of New York, yesterday, that he believes these five men my have entered our state and obviously there are some legitimate concerns about new year's eve celebrations here tonight.
MARGOLIS: That's correct. There should be. And I'm sure security will be very tight, as it is here in Canada, where the authorities are making extra efforts to secure America's northern border.
ZAHN: We are going to have to leave it there this morning.
Eric Margolis, you stay safe tonight and thank you for joining us this morning again.
MARGOLIS: Thank you. Happy new year.
ZAHN: Happy new year to you.
Thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 31, 2002 - 08:04 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now back to our big story of the morning, Al Qaeda and its network. See, the "Washington Post" this morning says U.S. intelligence officials believe that the al-Qaeda network controls more than a dozen cargo freighters. U.S. officials admit it's hard to track them, bringing into focus again just how difficult tracking terror can be.
Meanwhile, the FBI is still looking for those five men they believe entered the U.S. illegally from Canada last week.
What can the U.S. do to track terror along long borders and the high seas?
Let's turn to Eric Margolis, who's a Canadian born correspondent, author of "War At the Top of the World."
He joins us from Toronto.
Happy new year, Eric.
ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR, "WAR AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD": Happy new year to you, Paula.
ZAHN: Glad to have you with us.
Let's first off talk about this "Washington Post" story.
If this information in the piece is true, how vulnerable are U.S. ports to an attack by these cargo ships?
MARGOLIS: They are vulnerable, Paula. At any given time there are about 125,000 freighters of different types plying the seas. In my misspent youth I used to be operations manager for a line of freighters through the West Indies and I can tell you that there are all kinds of small tramp steamers that can quickly change their paint jobs and their names, designation numbers, even papers. They're like used cars and they move around and they are exceptionally hard to track, even though the Coast Guard is trying to do this and trying to keep a 96 hour notice of arrival to U.S. shores.
Still, many freighters do slip by, particularly up through Central America and around from the West Indies.
ZAHN: Are you pretty much saying it's all but impossible to track, particularly if these ships are changing their designations and their names and their, even their flags they often change? MARGOLIS: No, it is possible to track most of them. The Coast Guard, which is over stretched, is doing a pretty good job of that. But there's still always the danger that a freighter laden with explosives could slip by and what U.S. authorities are worried about is it lying, putting itself aside a cruise ship or the Statue of Liberty or going up the Mississippi River or hitting some high profile target packed with explosives, exploding, causing massive damage.
ZAHN: Do we know where these ships are today?
MARGOLIS: Some of the bin Laden ships are being tracked, some are not. Most of the bin Laden ships, the 15 or 16 ships, were small coastal freighters. They probably couldn't cross the Atlantic. They were carrying dates and cement and animals. This was the period when bin Laden was a businessman, before he started his one man holy war against the U.S. And, but they've changed names and designations and flags. They've been reflagged, as it's called, so often that it's hard to track. And most of these ships are registered in dubious countries like Liberia and Panama, which don't keep good records. They're known as flags of convenience and therefore they're very hard to track.
ZAHN: So when you say the U.S. is tracking some of them and not tracking others, is that simply because they're just so difficult given all these changes that the companies make?
MARGOLIS: That's right. Lots of targets and they keep moving around and when they change their names and paint jobs, it is very difficult to follow all of them, particularly the smaller ships. Not the super tankers. But we're talking about the small coastal trading vessels.
ZAHN: Let's turn our attention now to the five men the FBI is asking all of us to look for. And we'll put their pictures up on the screen now. What do you know about these men and any potential terrorist ties they might have?
MARGOLIS: Paula, very little at this point. We know that their names, by their names, I would say they're Pakistanis. They may just be economic immigrants who just tried to sneak into the United States. There are a lot of those that come across all borders. But on the other hand there's concern that they may be terrorists. Everybody has new year's jitters and it's a legitimate concern. There was a case of an Algerian who tried to sneak into the West Coast in 1999.
The, I talked to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the famous Mounties, and they are being mum on the subject. They claim they knew about it, but they say they don't have any hard evidence that these people came through Canada. They're sort of suggesting they might have come through Mexico.
The Canadian authorities are a bit miffed that the FBI and some conservative commentators in the States keep suggesting that Canada's borders are porous and Canada isn't doing its job in the war on terrorism.
ZAHN: Well, they are porous, aren't they, Eric?
MARGOLIS: Well, they're, they have been porous, Paula, it's true, but no more porous than our own borders in the United States. And the, Canada has had a very liberal immigration policy. In fact, Canada has a huge immigrant population. It's now, Toronto, for example, is the world's most multi-ethnic city. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are almost half foreign born.
ZAHN: Sure.
Eric, before we let you go, you talked about new year's eve jitters. Very quickly here, George Pataki even suggested, of New York, yesterday, that he believes these five men my have entered our state and obviously there are some legitimate concerns about new year's eve celebrations here tonight.
MARGOLIS: That's correct. There should be. And I'm sure security will be very tight, as it is here in Canada, where the authorities are making extra efforts to secure America's northern border.
ZAHN: We are going to have to leave it there this morning.
Eric Margolis, you stay safe tonight and thank you for joining us this morning again.
MARGOLIS: Thank you. Happy new year.
ZAHN: Happy new year to you.
Thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
