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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Arming Children Against Abuse; Married to Mommy?
Aired January 1, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening, everybody, and happy 2003.
Tonight, it is a new year, but we're going to take a look back at segments that really struck a chord with us: the perils of bringing a baby-sitter into your home to help you raise your children. And here's the nightmare scenario: The nanny causes you to lose your children.
We'll also have the story of a kid who grew up to help other kids escape abuse, using the lessons he learned from his own awful past.
Also: the ex-cop whose painful story inspired Robert De Niro to play him in a movie.
And we'll have two guys whose philosophy on marriage will have you either roaring with outrage or just plain laughter.
And our grand finale is provided by none other than opera superstar Luciano Pavarotti.
But we start with a story which will just chill any parent's blood. Danica Cordell-Reeh hired a nanny to help take care of her 5- year-old twins, Michelle Padilla, author of "The Official Guide to Finding a Great Nanny and Keeping Her." Two and a half weeks later, Danica fired her; 24 hours later, her world turned upside down. The nanny told authorities Danica sexually abused and starved her twins. A court took the twins and turned them over to Danica's estranged husband.
I spoke with Danica and her attorney, Bernard Clair, as she began her legal battle to get her kids back.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: All right, let's go back to the beginning then. It's eight months ago, you're an ordinary mother, you have a husband, your marriage is just fine. And you have two children, twins, 5 years old.
Tell me, you were looking for a babysitter, you called a service. Had you used this service ever before?
DANICA CORDELL-REEH, ACCUSES NANNY OF FABRICATING CLAIMS: Many times.
CHUNG: And had you -- did you immediately, at that point, get the name of Michelle Padilla and think she was probably going to be OK?
CORDELL-REEH: I worked with several names, and she seemed to be the best at the time.
CHUNG: Did the agency vouch for her?
CORDELL-REEH: The agency stood behind her, said she was a fantastic nanny; nanny of the year of 2000, and that she -- impeccable, you know, references, credentials.
CHUNG: So you and your husband interviewed her and thought she was good?
CORDELL-REEH: We thought she was good.
CHUNG: Both of you?
CORDELL-REEH: We both interviewed her and approved her. We worked together because we wanted the best for our kids.
We may not have been together, but we still wanted the best for our kids.
CHUNG: All right. Did you call any references?
CORDELL-REEH: I called almost all of them.
CHUNG: You did? And she checked out completely?
CORDELL-REEH: Checked out. I couldn't get in touch with one or two. The numbers were either stale, or I was told there was a family that had a tragedy related to 9/11.
CHUNG: All right. So, she's in your home, she's taking care of your children. But just a short while later, you're uncomfortable with her, and you want to fire her.
What was wrong?
CORDELL-REEH: She just didn't -- the agency had billed her as being able to do stuff, and was this great person, and would fit in, live-in. She couldn't do the household things that needed to be done. She just didn't seem to fit in right with, you know, with the kids and me.
CHUNG: After you fire her, she goes to your estranged husband, she goes to your therapist, the family therapist, and she goes to the children's school and she accuses you of?
CORDELL-REEH: These heinous crimes: sexually abusing them, starving them. It was incredible. I just didn't know where to go. It was -- I had walked through the doors into hell. And they just kept opening. First, I had the State of New York down on me with protective services showing up. And then you take the kids to school the next day, you figure you're picking them up, and I am served these papers.
And she has filed an affidavit in court, she's talked to my therapist, my estranged husband, who six weeks ago had asked me to get back together with him after 9/11, has run into court.
I've lost custody of my kids. I don't -- I don't know where to go at that point.
CHUNG: Now, apparently your estranged husband believed these allegations over the nanny. In other words, didn't believe you, but believed the nanny.
CORDELL-REEH: Isn't this incredulous? I mean, a guy I've known that long had the reverse happen. I had been knocking on his door going, what is going on? This person has been there two weeks?
I knew this person.
CHUNG: Did you willingly turn the children over?
CORDELL-REEH: The children were picked up from their school.
CHUNG: Without your knowledge?
CORDELL-REEH: No, I had just gotten the papers. I was leaving to go pick them up from preschool.
CHUNG: So you never were able to see them and say goodbye at that moment?
CORDELL-REEH: Nothing. It was like they were expecting me, and I was walking out the door when the papers got there.
I had to find a lawyer. I had to be in court on Monday morning. This was Friday afternoon.
Now, Danica, your estranged husband, his name is Henry Owsley, gave a statement, and I wanted to read part of it for you.
"I have acted in accordance with the recommendations of neutral, third-party, mental health experts made after an extensive investigation with interviews of more than a dozen witnesses, including the child's therapist, my wife's therapist, three nannies and others involved with both my wife and the children."
He seems to be implying that the allegations are supported by numerous other people.
CORDELL-REEH: The -- I had to go through not only losing my kids, but walking into a forensic psychologist's office, who is looking at me as somebody who had abused her kids. I don't even remember what was said and, at the same time, and I didn't even realize this, she was trying to view me on my fitness of being a parent to these kids, kids that because of these charges, I couldn't even feel comfortable holding. I had somebody three feet behind me every time I was with them at that point.
CHUNG: Supervised visitation?
CORDELL-REEH: Complete supervised visitation, and I'm still supervised.
BERNARD CLAIR, ATTORNEY FOR CORDELL-REEH: Let me clarify something if I can too. You know, under our law, there was already an agreement of custody and parenting time. So in order to change that, Henry Owsley had to come in with something of an exceptional nature, because we respect prior agreements. So he came in with the allegations of Padilla. If, at that time, we knew what we know now, the investigation would never have occurred. Danica would never have been put under the microscope and the spotlight that she...
CHUNG: And what do you now know?
CLAIR: We know that Michelle Padilla not only acted in bad faith, but manipulated the system because she is, as far as we are concerned, unstable and has a history of making these same allegations in prior circumstances, in prior situations where she has been terminated.
CHUNG: We heard from two of her family members. And one of her family members left a message saying he was unaware of these recent allegations and cannot believe this is happening to another family. And also, another relative said to us that she has had some mental problems.
CLAIR: Yes.
CHUNG: Do you have any evidence to suggest that that is true?
CLAIR: Yes. Once we discovered that Michelle Padilla had made similar allegations against other innocent families in the past, we investigated whether she had ever brought a lawsuit, because that is somewhat typical as far as a modus operandi.
And, in fact, in 1994, she sued a mental health clinic where she was seeking and attaining treatment. And during those sessions, she made certain startling revelations about herself. One, that she had been sexually abused herself as a child by family members. And the second was that she had engaged in prostitution, along with other assertions.
And, in fact, because she sued the clinic, these session notes that we have became a matter of public record because they had to defend themselves for the allegations that she was making against them, namely, that they had let her records be disseminated to third parties. By the way, that suit was dismissed.
CHUNG: OK. In addition, I need to tell you that a friend of Michelle Padilla called us and says she has no comment.
Now, there is one other aspect of this story and that is you have sued also the agency. And the agency gave us a statement and I'll read it in part. "The company is duty bound not to respond to specific details of the associated family members legal claims." And this one would apply to you, in many ways. "While the agency endeavors to interview personally potential employees and obtain references, it is the employer's responsibility to satisfy themselves as to the suitability of the employee for the engagement."
So, they are essentially -- it's saying it's your job to find out if they are really, you know, dependable and do not have some kind of previous record that you would object to. Bottom line, are you allowed to see your children now?
CORDELL-REEH: Yes. I see my children, but completely supervised. At night, during the day.
CHUNG: And how do they react? How do you deal with the fact that they are not living with you and how do you explain that to them?
CORDELL-REEH: I can't explain it to them. I cannot. They don't even understand why there are supervisors in the house. They say we don't need these people here. Make them go away. They have to...
CHUNG: So, do they want to be with you?
CORDELL-REEH: They just want to be with me. In the beginning, my daughter used to have to be just pried off of me. She was hung on so tight and she'd be screaming and crying. And my son would just lay crying in the car and his fingers would be going down. Even now, if I'm with them, they don't want to leave me. They don't understand.
CLAIR: Now, I should say that the order is only temporary and we are in court in the next week or so, where we will be given the opportunity to show that once this case took that terrible awesome spin, that evil spin, if you will, she never had a chance with the process. And Mr. Owsley saying that there is a bunch of support is dead wrong only because the kinds of support that he's looking for is, for example, my client was woodened when she was with the children. Well, who being accused of sexual abuse would be any different?
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Danica Cordell-Reeh and Bernard Clair, for being with us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: So, what happened? The case was settled after a five-day trial, with mother and father sharing custody without monitored visits.
When we come back: The victim of real molestation turns his dark past into a beacon of hope for the future.
We'll see how right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As the winter holiday break ends, it's time to send our kids back to school, back out into the world. Sometimes, that world can be a scary one, a dangerous one. It's a lesson Jody Plauche learned when he was a boy in one of the worst possible ways. As you are about to see in some disturbing video, it even led to murder.
But now, as CNN's Art Harris reports, he's turning that lesson from his past into lessons for other kids' futures.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JODY PLAUCHE, VICTIMS COUNSELOR: And the reason why we're here today and the reason why I'm here today are to teach you rules that you can use, three rules that you can use if anyone ever tries to secret touch you.
ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jody Plauche, fighting sexual predators one school at a time.
J. PLAUCHE: All right, so, rule No. 1 is to say no. Rule No. 2 is to go. You want to get away from that person.
HARRIS: A victims counselor near Philadelphia, he's in demand.
J. PLAUCHE: And rule No. 3.
HARRIS: A quick course on the dark side of growing up.
J. PLAUCHE: Now, sometimes there's no good reason for a grownup to touch a child's private parts. And this is what we call secret touching.
HARRIS: Jody Plauche learned all about secret touching 20 years ago from this man, a former karate teacher who first molested Jody when he was 10 -- Jeff Duset (ph) in handcuffs on his way to face charges for later kidnapping Jody. Duset won't make his court date. He's about to be murdered.
J. PLAUCHE: The gunman: Jody's father, Gary Plauche. The man who wrestled away Plauche's gun was Mike Barnett, chief deputy, East Baton Rouge Parish. The year: 1984. Plauche was charged with murder.
CHIEF DEPUTY MIKE BARNETT, EAST BATON ROUGE PARISH: I got in letters from all over the country from people very irate that we would even arrest him.
HARRIS: Plauche took a guilty plea in exchange for five years probation; 18 years later, no regrets.
GARY PLAUCHE, FATHER OF JODY: If it happened again today, I'd do the same thing.
HARRIS (on camera): Kill him?
G. PLAUCHE: Sure. HARRIS: Justice?
G. PLAUCHE: My justice.
HARRIS: Revenge?
G. PLAUCHE: Yes. Well, at the time, it was no revenge. It was something I couldn't live with.
HARRIS (voice-over): What he couldn't live with was the betrayal and the seduction of his son over two years.
J. PLAUCHE: I was 10 years old. He's like: Come ride on my lap, sit on my lap.
What 10-year-old doesn't want to do that? Everyone wants to drive when they're young. And so I'm sitting on his lap and his hands go on my private parts. And now I'm driving a car, but what can I do?
HARRIS: Other boys were victims, too.
J. PLAUCHE: By the time actually he started having sex with me, I was so manipulated and brainwashed.
HARRIS: And winning trophies for his friend.
J. PLAUCHE: If I didn't like the guy, I would have told on him. So, I liked him. I liked the things that we did, as far as going to the movies, going to Disney World. But, you know, as an 11-year-old, I'm thinking: You know what? If he would stop this, then he would be so much fun.
HARRIS: Jody regrets it took a bullet, but says the sensational shooting exposed a secret he then had to deal with. The very public nature of his victimization, Jody believes, is one reason now why he's a healthy adult.
BARNETT: Jody is one of the success stories that we don't hear enough about. I deal with the failures in my job.
HARRIS: To make sure Jody didn't fail, Barnett urged his parents to avoid blame or shame.
BARNETT: A child doesn't know the nature of his act is wrong. And if you overreact to this, if you talk to the child about it in a negative way, if you talk to other adults and act as if the child did something wrong, many times, you're doing something that is very counterproductive to the child, sometimes even more so with your reaction, if you don't react properly, then the actual act itself.
J. PLAUCHE: Let him talk, you know? But you remain calm. Stay calm, because, if he sees he upsets you, he won't tell you anything else.
Victim Services Center. This is Jody. Can I help you?
HARRIS: Now, at 30, Jody is far from home on the Bayou, but rooted in who he is and what he stands for, a friend to other victims.
J. PLAUCHE: Well, go ahead.
HARRIS: And trying to prevent the innocent from falling prey, like he did.
(on camera): Your whole life, it seems, was shaped by that one incident. Do you ever think about that?
J. PLAUCHE: Well, yes. And a lot of times, I will sit there and I will think, you know what? Maybe it's a good thing that it happened to me, because now I can help others. And maybe I'm the right person that can do this.
J. PLAUCHE: Say?
CHILDREN: No.
J. PLAUCHE: Then?
CHILDREN: Go.
J. PLAUCHE: And?
CHILDREN: Tell.
J. PLAUCHE: Tell.
HARRIS (voice-over): The right person to boost the odds, so the next generation will be better armed with brainpower...
J. PLAUCHE: One, two, three.
CHILDREN: No!
HARRIS: ... to keep predators at bay.
Art Harris, CNN, Philadelphia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: An important lesson.
And when we come back: the lessons Robert De Niro brought to Hollywood from the amazing real-life story of an ex-cop and the son he thought he'd lose forever.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: What do you say when Robert De Niro says he wants to play you in the movies? You say: Really? Great.
Well, that's what happened to a cop whose life sounded like a script, even before it really became one. His father, a convicted murderer, had died in the electric chair. Then his son was accused of murder. Last year, Robert De Niro played that man in the movie "City by the Sea."
And I sat down with the ex-cop who lived the reality.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: I'm now joined by Vincent LaMarca.
Vince, thanks for being with us.
VINCENT LAMARCA, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Thank you very much.
CHUNG: You were only 9 years old when your father committed a crime. What was that crime?
LAMARCA: He committed a kidnapping on Long Island, New York, a young child. The baby did end up dying.
CHUNG: Why did you father kidnap the child?
LAMARCA: Money. Money. No question about it. He was in debt to the tune of $1,800, left a ransom note. He wanted $2,000.
It was stupid. It did not have to happen. He got himself in debt with loan sharks and was now afraid they were going to threaten his family. And panic sets in.
CHUNG: So then your father went to death row. Was he actually executed?
LAMARCA: Yes, two years later. He was executed at Sing Sing Prison in Ossining, New York.
CHUNG: What kind of impact did that have on you as a boy?
LAMARCA: A lot of impact. That's a difficult thing to try and explain.
I was aware of what the crime was. I was aware of the fact that he was probably going to be executed. Even at that age, I knew the crime was not who my father was. There was a person there.
CHUNG: And how did that affect you as a kid, as an 11-year-old, with the other kids that you played with?
LAMARCA: I think, when you see the movie that was later made about this, it hits that right on the head.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "CITY BY THE SEA")
DE NIRO: When my old man did what he did, I felt so bad, you know? I felt like I was the criminal.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LAMARCA: Children can be very cruel. You get teased. "Your father is the baby-killer," that type of thing. That does come up. And it does happen.
CHUNG: So, can you express to me, as an 11-year-old, what were you feeling, knowing that your father was going to the electric chair?
LAMARCA: Connie, I wish I could zoom in on one particular thing with a question like that. It's very, very difficult to explain.
I had a very close relationship with my father. I had a very close relationship with my grandfather, who fortunately was right there with me this entire time when my father was on death row. Even as an 11-year-old, I can see it devastating my grandfather at that time. It influenced me a lot. I think it had a lot to do with how I later grew up.
CHUNG: And let's deal with that. You became a police officer, a street cop, all the way up to an administrative job. Now, you took a completely different turn. Why?
LAMARCA: I was mentioning my grandfather. I think that is a lot of the reason why. I couldn't see him getting hurt anymore. I couldn't do anything that would put me in trouble to give him any more embarrassment. That was very, very important to me.
CHUNG: So were you determined to get your good family name back?
LAMARCA: I don't know if I ever looked at it like that, but I guess that was -- that was one of the factors involved, certainly.
Probably one of the proudest moments for my grandfather was being at the police academy when I graduated. You have no idea how that must have made him feel.
CHUNG: So your professional life was terrific. But, unfortunately, your personal life was not going well. You had a wife. You had two sons. And you got divorced. Did you see your sons?
LAMARCA: I wasn't always there for him. It's a typical divorce. The ex-wife makes it a little tough for you to see the child. And I'm not blaming her. Don't misunderstand me. It's a common thing.
And me, I'm guilty. I didn't put that extra effort in. She made it difficult. And sometimes it's easy to move on with your life, rather than put that extra effort in to be there with your son.
CHUNG: Did your son know about his grandfather's history and that his grandfather was a murderer?
LAMARCA: Yes, he did.
CHUNG: And that he died in the electric chair?
LAMARCA: Yes, he did.
CHUNG: Was your son somewhat fascinated with it? Because I know he went and got clippings, newspaper clippings, and saved them.
LAMARCA: Yes.
I wasn't aware that Joey -- he didn't develop a fixation with it, but he was much more interested in it than I was aware of. And he was much more aware of that crime than I ever had any idea of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "CITY BY THE SEA")
(PHONE RINGING)
DE NIRO: LaMarca.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: And one day, you got a horrible phone call. What was it?
LAMARCA: A drug dealer had just been killed and my son was the main suspect.
CHUNG: And what happened to you in your heart?
LAMARCA: That was a difficult phone call to get. My son Joseph, he was in a lot of trouble. I was aware of what was going on. I may not have had a lot of dealings with him. I may not have had any type of influence on him, but I was aware of what was going on. I knew he was getting in and out of trouble. But I would never have expected this.
CHUNG: Were you hoping that the police were wrong?
LAMARCA: Of course you're hoping they're wrong. However, the very next day, I got a call from Joseph. He was still on the run. And I didn't know where he was calling me from at the time. And he admitted to me it was him.
CHUNG: Tell me, what did that do to you?
LAMARCA: That's very difficult to deal with.
CHUNG: Here you had spent 20 years in law enforcement.
LAMARCA: Yes.
CHUNG: You were trying to reverse the LaMarca trend. And you successfully did so. And, all of the sudden, your second-born does exactly the wrong thing.
LAMARCA: Yes, he did. The only murder dumber than my father's murder was my son's, the one my son committed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "CITY BY THE SEA")
ROBERT DE NIRO, ACTOR: I'll be there, just me.
JAMES FRANCO, ACTOR: And why should I trust you? DE NIRO: Joey, you don't have a choice. Just meet me there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAMARCA: I guess he called me because he's going to call dad. Whether you have the relationship or not, I'm his father. And he gave me the call. And my kid was in a lot of trouble.
CHUNG: You were envisioning a repeat nightmare?
LAMARCA: Yes, I certainly was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "CITY BY THE SEA")
FRANCO: I don't know what happened. I mean, one minute we're fighting. The next minute he's dead.
DE NIRO: This is something you can't run away from.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAMARCA: This was a drug deal went bad. Both men were armed with knives. My son came out on top is what it boiled down to. I'm not saying it was strictly self-defense. However, it could have very easily have gone the other way.
CHUNG: So Joey went to prison for manslaughter?
LAMARCA: Yes, he did.
CHUNG: How many years is he committed for?
LAMARCA: He took a plea on this. He didn't go to trial. And he got 15 to 25. So he just turned 30 this month. So he'll be in his early 40s when he gets out of prison.
CHUNG: What is your relationship with him now?
LAMARCA: Actually, it's amazing. My relationship with him now is wonderful.
CHUNG: No. Really?
LAMARCA: We have really developed a good rapport.
CHUNG: How did that happen?
LAMARCA: I don't know. It happened slowly. It really did.
CHUNG: So, isn't it fascinating that it took something like this to bring the two of you together? What is that all about?
LAMARCA: Yes, it is. It's amazing, when you think about it. But I'm happy to say, I'm looking forward to him coming out of prison.
CHUNG: Will he go straight? LAMARCA: I think so. I see how he's changed.
CHUNG: Why will
(CROSSTALK)
LAMARCA: He's changed drastically.
He's finally matured. He's finally grown up. He's taken responsibility for the choices he's made. He may have been drugged out when he did this crime, but he made a decision to take the drugs. He actually has taken some responsibility. And that is important, because we both have.
CHUNG: All right, so what do you think the message is in your life and what do you think the message is in the movie?
LAMARCA: OK.
You make your choices. You really do. And I made my choices. My father wasn't around for me as I was growing up, but I still made my choices. And I decided to do what I did. And my son made his choices and decided to do what he did. If people are going to blame things on something else, all it is, is they're not taking any responsibility for their actions. I really believe and feel that way.
CHUNG: Vince, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
LAMARCA: I thank you very much, Connie. It's been a pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: "City by the Sea" will be available on video next month.
Still ahead: what two guys had to say about marriage, kind of politically incorrect, but very funny. And they may be talking about you and me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Between Christmas and New Year's, you've probably been spending a lot of time with your family. So, we really don't want this next segment to start any fights, OK?
But you've got to hear what these two guys say about what happens to women once they get married. As politically incorrect as it may be and as much as I hate to admit it, they just may be on to something. In their book "Married to Mommy" they explain that, when women become mothers, they cut their hair. They quit wearing lingerie. And, maybe worst of all, they just stop having fun. In other words, they become a mommy to their husbands, too.
You don't buy it? Well, listen to what they had to say when I interviewed them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now are the authors of "Married to Mommy," combat- ready guys Jeffrey Bakeman and Brian Kringbring. Hey, guys, how are you?
BRIAN KRINGBRING, CO-AUTHOR, "MARRIED TO MOMMY": Great. How are you, Connie?
CHUNG: Terrific.
JEFFREY BAKEMAN, CO-AUTHOR, "MARRIED TO MOMMY": How are you doing, Connie?
CHUNG: Good, good, good. Now, tell me, what is a mommy?
KRINGBRING: Well, a mommy is a former fun-loving girlfriend that after marriage somehow morphs into a perpetually practical, overly controlling mommy.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Oh, I think I know what you mean. I resemble that remark! You know?
BAKEMAN: Not at all.
CHUNG: Now tell me this -- can you tell if a girlfriend has mommy tendencies, or can you actually identify it in a wife?
KRINGBRING: Well, yes, you can. There are several warning signs. And in our book, we have identified them. Sometimes it can be as benign as her doing all the laundry or doing all the cooking, but then, and that's easy to get used to. But that's a very slippery slope, because pretty soon she's going to be controlling all aspects of your life from who you go see, what time you come in, to what you think and what you do.
BAKEMAN: And what you remember, actually. You can actually be told what you remember by mommies, which is a scary thought.
The other thing, Connie, you've asked about girlfriends, and we have a lot of questions coming in on our Web site, marriedtomommy.com, from guys who are not married and they are very interested in knowing, how do we steer clear from the higher levels of mommies? And it's very difficult, because the true mommy is trained to disguise herself as a non-mommy until a few years after the wedding bells have taken place.
CHUNG: Jeff, is every wife a mommy?
BAKEMAN: Oh, not at all. You know, and it's not limited necessarily just to wives. There's -- there's a little mommy in all wives, but not all wives are mommies. Number one. Number two, again, there are people in live-in relationships or boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, where all of a sudden, boom, out pops the mommy, and a guy is just rained upon with mommy moments. CHUNG: Brian, can a mommy revert back to being that fun-loving girlfriend? Is this syndrome reversible?
KRINGBRING: Sadly, no.
(LAUGHTER)
KRINGBRING: And that's why we wrote the book. The best you can do with a mommy is break even. And the book is basically a survival guide, filled with hints and tips on how to make your marriage to mommy a little more survivable.
CHUNG: Jeff, how did we become -- we women -- become afflicted with this syndrome?
BAKEMAN: Well, some of it is genetic. It's just natural, I think, for women. They are so much more powerful and smarter than men in general, that they can outthink, outlast, outplan, outmarket, outmaneuver men.
CHUNG: You are very bright, Jeff.
BAKEMAN: Absolutely true. I believe it to the marrow of my bones. And it's taught to me on a daily basis. Not necessarily at home.
CHUNG: Are you two married to mommies?
KRINGBRING: You know, surprisingly not.
CHUNG: Oh, please! Give me a break!
BAKEMAN: Connie, Connie...
CHUNG: You are so browbeaten you won't even say that you're married to mommies!
BAKEMAN: Connie, unbelievably, we are not married to mommies.
KRINGBRING: Connie, we may be dumb but we're not stupid.
CHUNG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do agree with you. I think you are correct. However, I will say that all of you want to marry your mothers, and you look for women who will mommy you. And when you get sicky-pooh, I can't believe how much babying you want. Oh, I don't feel good. Can I have some chicken soup, you know? So it's your fault, because you -- you find women who are just like your mommies who will mother you.
KRINGBRING: Well, in many cases that's true. Many times a husband is a -- an unwitting co-conspirator. I mean, after marriage he thinks he has got his girlfriend all wrapped up and she's taking care of his every whim. But soon that -- that taking care of his every whim can become a cold, damp, cloistering blanket of controlling overattention, and that's -- that's what we're concerned with here. It's not every woman, not every wife, and not every -- every mommy is like this. There are -- there are gradations of mommies.
BAKEMAN: There are different levels of mommies.
CHUNG: There are major mommies and minor mommies, right?
BAKEMAN: There's minor mommies and there's major mommies, and of course you can take our test on the Web site, or read the book. Did you see that?
CHUNG: Yes, I did.
BAKEMAN: And in the book, you can take the test and try to determine what level of mommy you may be working with. Of course, the top level mommy is a tsunami mommy, which is something that should be avoided at all costs. And if you are dealing with a tsunami mommy, head for high ground.
CHUNG: I get it. I get it big time. Hey, you know what? I think this is a terrific book. I am going to buy it for all my girlfriends and I'm going to give it...
BAKEMAN: Wait a minute, are you going to give it to women?
This thing is backfiring on us.
CHUNG: What can I tell you. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you so much for writing this very enlightening book. I'm going to take it to bed with me.
BAKEMAN: Available on Amazon.com.
KRINGBRING: And thank you for having us, Connie.
BAKEMAN: Thanks, Connie.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Their book went into a second printing. But, on the other hand, ah, they're probably in the doghouse, right?
We'll be right back with opera's big man, Luciano Pavarotti.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Right now, we want to take you back to our rare close-up look at world-famous Luciano Pavarotti, a big man in his '60s whose talent and bad-boy charisma made him an international superstar. Pavarotti has shared the stage with just about everybody, from Bono, to James Brown, from Meat Loaf to the Cranberries. He's sold more than 100 million albums and once packed New York's Central Park with a half-million fan.
But, recently, he left hundreds of fans fuming. To find out why, I went to Italy to interview the best-selling classical singer of all time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Luciano Pavarotti is a big man with a big voice. And when the most famous opera singer on the planet, The Maestro, who can count as his audience kings and queens, popes and presidents, the man who has shared the stage with mega-stars -- the man with the biggest voice in the world -- when he doesn't sing, it's big news.
Just last month he was scheduled to sing at the New York Metropolitan Opera season finale. It was rumored to be Pavarotti's final performance at The Met.
But a few days before, a drama began to play out like, well, an opera. Will he sing or won't he? He did not sing.
We went to his villa in Pesaro, Italy just above the shores of the Adriatic Sea. And for the first time, Pavarotti answered questions about his controversial no-show on Saturday, May 11.
(on camera): At the New York Metropolitan Opera, you were scheduled to perform. What happened?
LUCIANO PAVAROTTI, OPERA SINGER: I was sick.
CHUNG: You were sick?
PAVAROTTI: Yes. If one singer is sick, what should they do? Cancel?
CHUNG: I presume so.
PAVAROTTI: I presume so, too. I did, and it was an explosion like atomic bomb.
CHUNG (voice-over): The explosion first hit inside The Met. The audience that night, some of whom had paid $1,800 a ticket, erupted in a chorus of boos when told Pavarotti would not perform.
PAVAROTTI: In one way, thank you very much to make this big boo, boo, boo, boo about my cough. Made it the most important cough in the world.
CHUNG: And the controversy spilled over to the newspapers the next morning.
PAVAROTTI: I think it is stupid, absolutely stupid, make such a big fuss.
CHUNG (on camera): I think there were some who felt that you should have gone there and personally said, I can't sing tonight.
PAVAROTTI: Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo. Not for one reason. First, I was unable to talk.
CHUNG: You weren't even able to speak? You had laryngitis? PAVAROTTI: Yes.
CHUNG (voice-over): While other tenors have stepped off the stage at age 50, Pavarotti, at 66, has never even broached the subject of retirement.
PAVAROTTI: I am busy for two or three years more. And after I will retire.
CHUNG (on camera): After?
PAVAROTTI: In three years I will retire.
CHUNG: You will?
PAVAROTTI: Yes.
CHUNG: You have never announced your retirement.
PAVAROTTI: I will announce it to you.
CHUNG: Honestly, you're going to retire in three years?
PAVAROTTI: My birthday, 19 -- no, 2005.
CHUNG: 2005?
PAVAROTTI: Write it down.
CHUNG: I am going to write it down. 2005, Luciano Pavarotti will retire.
PAVAROTTI: Twelfth of October.
CHUNG: Sorry?
PAVAROTTI: Twelfth of October.
CHUNG: Are you going to hold to that date? That's a promise?
PAVAROTTI: Yes. I never sing even in the bathroom, not even when I'm taking the shower.
CHUNG: What tells you that it will be time?
PAVAROTTI: I hope it is going to be time. I don't know.
CHUNG: Is it because you feel your voice is gone?
PAVAROTTI: No. No, no, no, no.
CHUNG: Is it your health?
PAVAROTTI: No.
CHUNG: Is it... PAVAROTTI: It's a little everything.
CHUNG (voice-over): It's been a difficult year for Pavarotti. Just last month the father he worshiped died at age 89, with Luciano at his side.
Just four days later, still grieving, Pavarotti took the stage to perform at his annual charity concert, Pavarotti and Friends.
PAVAROTTI: We come out, very beautiful concert, except that you see I am empty. There is nothing in my face. There is nothing.
CHUNG: That wasn't the first time he sang through his grief. In January, his beloved mother died, the woman who pushed him to pursue opera.
Just one day after her death, Pavarotti sang at London's Covent Garden as scheduled.
CHUNG (on camera): I think many people would not have been able to do what you did: sing after your father died, sing after your mother died -- only 24 hours later after your mother died.
PAVAROTTI: I just can tell you one thing: On the stage of Covent Garden, I was not alone.
CHUNG: On the stage, you were not alone?
PAVAROTTI: No. Even there in the concert, I was not alone.
CHUNG: They were with you?
PAVAROTTI: Yes.
CHUNG (voice-over): When he was a boy playing on the beach in Pesaro, Italy, young Luciano Pavarotti would often look up the hill.
PAVAROTTI: I see this house when I was a boy. And I say to myself, look that countryman, how lucky he is.
And then when I have the money, I build the house.
CHUNG: Now Pavarotti is building a new house as he moves into a new personal life.
His 34-year marriage collapsed after scandalous photos surfaced of him and his 26-year-old secretary Nicoletta.
Today, six years later, Luciano and Nicoletta are still together. The unpredictable Maestro sprung a few more surprises on us: marriage and children.
CHUNG (on camera): She says you're getting married later this year. Is that true?
PAVAROTTI: If the house is all finished, I hope. I hope they finish the house in time.
CHUNG: And when the house is built and finished...
PAVAROTTI: We marry.
CHUNG: You will get married?
PAVAROTTI: Dah-dah-dah-dah, yes, yes.
CHUNG: Did you propose to her formally?
PAVAROTTI: I proposed to her several years ago. She says yes. And she's still in the -- she still say yes. I think she's a masochist.
CHUNG: She's what, a masochist?
Now, she is young.
PAVAROTTI: Very.
CHUNG: She's half your age.
PAVAROTTI: Yes, exactly.
CHUNG: Exactly. Might you want to have some children?
PAVAROTTI: We are thinking about.
CHUNG: How many, do you think?
PAVAROTTI: I don't know. One or two or three or four. We would like to have more children.
CHUNG: You have three daughters from an earlier marriage. In fact, they're older than Nicoletta. Would you like a son?
PAVAROTTI: Yes.
CHUNG: And would you like a son?
PAVAROTTI: Not necessarily.
CHUNG: You are already 66.
PAVAROTTI: Yes.
CHUNG: Wouldn't you be concerned about your health?
PAVAROTTI: Yes.
CHUNG: Because the baby will grow up and...
PAVAROTTI: So?
CHUNG: ... maybe you won't be around? PAVAROTTI: So what? So what? The mother is very young. Life goes on like that.
CHUNG (voice-over): Pavarotti says hip and knee surgeries have not slowed him down. He's fine. But he will acknowledge a weight issue.
(on camera): Are you dieting now?
PAVAROTTI: Yes. I'm good; good enough.
CHUNG: You didn't say that with a lot of conviction.
PAVAROTTI: You did ask me if I am dieting. You did not ask me if I am starving. So I'm not starving. I'm dieting, yes.
CHUNG (voice-over): Pavarotti now plans his workload carefully. He schedules about 40 performances a year, earning him a reported $35 million.
(on camera): Are you missing anything in life?
PAVAROTTI: At this precise moment, the question is absolutely, obviously yes, I miss my father and my mother. And they just left.
But like I say, when I think about them, I'm never sad. I'm really so -- these two beautiful people together. They stayed 74 years together. Such a beautiful memory.
CHUNG: Yes.
PAVAROTTI: And that is not sad. You see me sad inside very often. It's a big loss.
CHUNG: Yes.
PAVAROTTI: But every time I'm thinking about them, I don't cry. I smile.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: By the way, he and his lovely lady are expected to become the proud parents of twins any day now. And when we spoke, Pavarotti said that he may come out of retirement just once in 2006 to sing with the other two tenors at the World Cup, you know, the three tenors. And then he'd be done.
But we're not done either. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow: the latest on Iraq.
And "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.
Thank you so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.
Happy new year.
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