Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Interview With Biological Weapons Expert On Ricin
Aired January 08, 2003 - 07:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: As we've been talking about for almost 24 hours now, there is no antidote for ricin, there is no vaccine, no treatment at all in fact.
Let's talk more about it. Malcom Davis is a biological weapons expert from Kings College. He too is in London for us.
Good to have you here on AMERICAN MORNING.
We have said repeatedly this is deadly. How deadly is it?
MALCOM DAVIS, BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS EXPERT: Ricin is an extremely deadly agent in the sense that it can very quickly infect someone, bring about severe medical problems in terms of the collapse of circulatory and breathing through the inflammation of the lungs and the airways. And what happens is that within 36 to 48 hours, a person dies. As you say, there's no vaccine, there's no antidote. All you can do it treat the patient and try and make them as comfortable as possible.
But the one thing with ricin is that it's not designed to be a mass casualty weapon. It's designed to be used either as a targeted assassination weapon, as was used against Georgi Markov in 1979, or it's designed to be used as a limited weapon in a constrained space by releasing it in an aerosol cloud.
So, it's not designed to be like smallpox that could very quickly kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or even millions of people if it were released.
HEMMER: Sir, many Americans are quite familiar now with anthrax for the past 16 months. How do you compare ricin with anthrax? Is there a comparison here?
DAVIS: Well, certainly in the way that these people may use the ricin if they have it is very similar. What these people may be thinking of doing is trying to spread fear and panic in the same way that the terrorists immediately after 9/11 used anthrax to do the same thing by killing a few people here and there, but not by killing large numbers of people.
One of the key things that they may be planning on is the fact that at the moment in the United Kingdom, it's the flu season, and the symptoms of ricin are very similar to the flu. So, they may be thinking more in terms of spreading fear and panic rather than mass casualties. So, the comparisons with the post-9/11 anthrax attacks are very relevant. But of course, anthrax can also be used as a mass casualty weapon, which it was not used as in the post-9/11 attacks.
HEMMER: One of the things you pointed out to our CNN producers is that the amount of ricin found is critical in terms of your evaluation, your examination. We are told it was a small amount, but tell us why the amount is so critical as you evaluate this.
DAVIS: Well, what we found is the residue of ricin production on the production items. So, we don't actually have the ricin, and that's the concerning thing. The ricin itself could be out there in the community waiting to be used.
Now, the actual lethal dose for an individual is very low, but in terms of creating large numbers of casualties, it's not very effective. You would need about 380 milligrams to kill a large number of people over a constrained area. So, as I said, it's more useful as a targeted assassination weapon or to kill people in a constrained area such an underground railway station or a supermarket or a shopping mall. But the lethal dose is fairly low for an individual.
HEMMER: Yes, in a home laboratory, an apartment in London as have described here, how easy or how difficult is it to obtain or to make ricin?
DAVIS: Well, obviously, I'm not going to tell you how to make ricin, because that would be dangerous knowledge, but it is very easy. It's obviously made from caster beans, and you can refine that and produce the ricin from it. And the caster beans are very easily available, and so it's an easy biological weapon to make.
HEMMER: Quickly here, we have all been educated now in anthrax and how you can trace anthrax to a certain source. Can you do the same for ricin?
DAVIS: Not so easily, because, as I said, the precursor materials, the caster beans, are so widely available. So, it's a much more stealthy weapon, if you like. It's much more easy to make, it's very stable in the environment, it doesn't degrade over time, and it can be applied in a variety of different ways. So, in that sense, it's a more insidious threat than anthrax.
HEMMER: Nonetheless, it got a lot of our attention yesterday, and for good reason. Malcom Davis live in London -- thanks for your time and talking on this.
DAVIS: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired January 8, 2003 - 07:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: As we've been talking about for almost 24 hours now, there is no antidote for ricin, there is no vaccine, no treatment at all in fact.
Let's talk more about it. Malcom Davis is a biological weapons expert from Kings College. He too is in London for us.
Good to have you here on AMERICAN MORNING.
We have said repeatedly this is deadly. How deadly is it?
MALCOM DAVIS, BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS EXPERT: Ricin is an extremely deadly agent in the sense that it can very quickly infect someone, bring about severe medical problems in terms of the collapse of circulatory and breathing through the inflammation of the lungs and the airways. And what happens is that within 36 to 48 hours, a person dies. As you say, there's no vaccine, there's no antidote. All you can do it treat the patient and try and make them as comfortable as possible.
But the one thing with ricin is that it's not designed to be a mass casualty weapon. It's designed to be used either as a targeted assassination weapon, as was used against Georgi Markov in 1979, or it's designed to be used as a limited weapon in a constrained space by releasing it in an aerosol cloud.
So, it's not designed to be like smallpox that could very quickly kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or even millions of people if it were released.
HEMMER: Sir, many Americans are quite familiar now with anthrax for the past 16 months. How do you compare ricin with anthrax? Is there a comparison here?
DAVIS: Well, certainly in the way that these people may use the ricin if they have it is very similar. What these people may be thinking of doing is trying to spread fear and panic in the same way that the terrorists immediately after 9/11 used anthrax to do the same thing by killing a few people here and there, but not by killing large numbers of people.
One of the key things that they may be planning on is the fact that at the moment in the United Kingdom, it's the flu season, and the symptoms of ricin are very similar to the flu. So, they may be thinking more in terms of spreading fear and panic rather than mass casualties. So, the comparisons with the post-9/11 anthrax attacks are very relevant. But of course, anthrax can also be used as a mass casualty weapon, which it was not used as in the post-9/11 attacks.
HEMMER: One of the things you pointed out to our CNN producers is that the amount of ricin found is critical in terms of your evaluation, your examination. We are told it was a small amount, but tell us why the amount is so critical as you evaluate this.
DAVIS: Well, what we found is the residue of ricin production on the production items. So, we don't actually have the ricin, and that's the concerning thing. The ricin itself could be out there in the community waiting to be used.
Now, the actual lethal dose for an individual is very low, but in terms of creating large numbers of casualties, it's not very effective. You would need about 380 milligrams to kill a large number of people over a constrained area. So, as I said, it's more useful as a targeted assassination weapon or to kill people in a constrained area such an underground railway station or a supermarket or a shopping mall. But the lethal dose is fairly low for an individual.
HEMMER: Yes, in a home laboratory, an apartment in London as have described here, how easy or how difficult is it to obtain or to make ricin?
DAVIS: Well, obviously, I'm not going to tell you how to make ricin, because that would be dangerous knowledge, but it is very easy. It's obviously made from caster beans, and you can refine that and produce the ricin from it. And the caster beans are very easily available, and so it's an easy biological weapon to make.
HEMMER: Quickly here, we have all been educated now in anthrax and how you can trace anthrax to a certain source. Can you do the same for ricin?
DAVIS: Not so easily, because, as I said, the precursor materials, the caster beans, are so widely available. So, it's a much more stealthy weapon, if you like. It's much more easy to make, it's very stable in the environment, it doesn't degrade over time, and it can be applied in a variety of different ways. So, in that sense, it's a more insidious threat than anthrax.
HEMMER: Nonetheless, it got a lot of our attention yesterday, and for good reason. Malcom Davis live in London -- thanks for your time and talking on this.
DAVIS: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
