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CNN Live Today

Friendly Fire Hearing

Aired January 14, 2003 - 11:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A pair of F-16 pilots are facing the military's version of a grand jury hearing today. The proceedings could lead to court-martial for the pilots. They are charged in the friendly fire bombing that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.
Our Ed Lavandera joins us from Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana.

Ed has been inside the hearing room this morning and he has the latest.

Ed, good morning once again.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.

Well, this hearing started about an hour and a half ago. They're taking a short recess. Much of what has happened so far has been formalities here, preparing all of the sides, the defendants in this case, the two pilots, as well as the government representatives that are putting together the Air Force's case here.

Major Harry Schmidt and Bill Umbach arrived this morning at this nondescript building here on Barksdale Air Force Base. The only people allowed inside the room where this hearing is actually taking place is the investigating officer who is essentially the judge in this case, the government representatives, which for lack of a better term in this situation would be likened to the prosecutors, and then you have the two pilots and their attorneys that will be putting on their case as well. Those people are the only ones allowed inside that courtroom. News media and family members are kept in rooms outside and allowed to watch through a camera, a TV monitor that has been established in these rooms, and that's because much of the information that will be presented over the course of the next two weeks here is classified information. So that information as soon as it goes into classified moments, the cameras will be shut down and that will take place behind closed doors.

Now to get to the details of what has happened here, these two pilots are accused -- face charges of four counts of involuntary manslaughter, eight counts of aggravated assault and one count of dereliction of duty. If they eventually go to court marshal and are convicted, they could face up to 64 years in prison.

Now, last April, these two pilots were flying over Kandahar in an area they believed to be controlled by Al-Qaeda forces. As they were flying over in the middle of the night, they saw ground fire coming up from the ground, and they believed they needed to engage in self- defense. They asked for permission from a military plane that was flying overhead. They were not granted permission at first. The ground fire continued, and that's when decided they needed to respond in self-defense. They dropped a 500-pound bomb. Major Harry Schmidt did that. He was Umbach's wingman at the time, and they killed four Canadian soldiers on the ground who were involved in a live-fire training mission.

It was after that point, they were told, that friendlies were in the area. So defense attorneys for these two pilots will say that there was a communication breakdown, and that was what led them this accident to happen, and they also point to the use of so called go pills, a drug called Dexatrim (ph), that is used -- given to Air Force pilots in these long missions. They were flying a 10-hour mission that night.

The Air Force says these are given in minuscule amounts and shouldn't cause problems. These two pilots say that this drug, essentially speed, and even the FDA says you shouldn't operate heavy machinery while taking these drugs. So that will be an issue that comes up over the course of the next two weeks in this hearing -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Ed Lavandera, thank you so much.

With more on that now, here's Leon.

LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Scott Silliman is a law professor at Duke University. He's also a former military lawyer following this case. He joins us from Durham, North Carolina to talk about the pilot's case and whatever else may be happening in this article 32, Harry.

Good to see you again, Scott.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, FMR. AIR FORCE ATTY.: Good to be with you and Daryn again.

HARRIS: Now you've talked about this issue with the go pills once before. What do you think of it now that we've had time to examine that's what's been going on here? The families are all saying, as well as the pilots are saying, they were forced, if nothing else, just by camaraderie or just by expectations that they're supposed to take these pills as pilots.

SILLIMAN: Well, Leon, this is an issue, obviously, that's going to be looked at in this article 32 investigation, which as your reporter said, is the equivalent of a grand jury investigation, with one fundamental difference, of course, the two crew members and their attorneys are present and they're able to offer their own evidence.

But I think the Air Force is going to suggest in their hearing that the use of these go pills has been going on since World War II, and that pilots are not required to take them. It's strictly voluntary. The paperwork seems to suggest that. And further, that anytime these pills are prescribed, it is only after the pilots have actually gone through ground testing to see whether there is any possible side effect that's the result of these pills.

HARRIS: Yes, but, Scott, it seems like what we're hearing, that's what the paperwork says, but what the people involved here are saying is that, yes, it's voluntary, but it's voluntary like a code of silence is in amongst the police forces across the country, that sort of thing.

SILLIMAN: Well, again, that's something that is going to have to be brought to the attention of the convening authority general Carsland (ph) in his determination on whether the facts in their totality merit taking the charges to a trial by court martial, or whether there's some other disposition.

This whole question of the go pills though, Leon, I think is -- I'm sorry, the issue of the go pills is really a matter raised by the defense. The question is on the operative facts. The rules of engagement call for them not to descend into the threat environment, but climb away. Whether their judgment was clouded by the use of the pills, that's something to be considered by this very seasoned Air Force judge, who's the investigating officer.

HARRIS: Let me ask you about this. There's also some politics at play here. The families are alleging, and so are the defense attorneys , as well, that the reason why the Air Force is going after these two pilots is all politics, because the U.S. needs Canada right now to maintain support in Afghanistan, and possibly in Iraq as well, because they say hundreds of Afghans have been killed. No one has ever been brought up on charges for that. However, these two Canadian troops lose their lives, and all of a sudden, it's an issue here.

SILLIMAN: Well, Leon, let me remind your viewers that back in 1994, the Air Force pursued criminal charges when we had a couple of helicopters shot down in Iraq, and the question there was, was there sufficient negligence to merit criminal charges. That's the question that's being looked at now. Again, no decision has been made to go to trial yet. That's still left to General Carsland as to whether the facts support the charges. So that's happening at Barksdale.

HARRIS: We'll have to leave it there, and we'll follow this case as it does continue.

Scott Silliman, Duke University, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired January 14, 2003 - 11:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A pair of F-16 pilots are facing the military's version of a grand jury hearing today. The proceedings could lead to court-martial for the pilots. They are charged in the friendly fire bombing that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.
Our Ed Lavandera joins us from Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana.

Ed has been inside the hearing room this morning and he has the latest.

Ed, good morning once again.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.

Well, this hearing started about an hour and a half ago. They're taking a short recess. Much of what has happened so far has been formalities here, preparing all of the sides, the defendants in this case, the two pilots, as well as the government representatives that are putting together the Air Force's case here.

Major Harry Schmidt and Bill Umbach arrived this morning at this nondescript building here on Barksdale Air Force Base. The only people allowed inside the room where this hearing is actually taking place is the investigating officer who is essentially the judge in this case, the government representatives, which for lack of a better term in this situation would be likened to the prosecutors, and then you have the two pilots and their attorneys that will be putting on their case as well. Those people are the only ones allowed inside that courtroom. News media and family members are kept in rooms outside and allowed to watch through a camera, a TV monitor that has been established in these rooms, and that's because much of the information that will be presented over the course of the next two weeks here is classified information. So that information as soon as it goes into classified moments, the cameras will be shut down and that will take place behind closed doors.

Now to get to the details of what has happened here, these two pilots are accused -- face charges of four counts of involuntary manslaughter, eight counts of aggravated assault and one count of dereliction of duty. If they eventually go to court marshal and are convicted, they could face up to 64 years in prison.

Now, last April, these two pilots were flying over Kandahar in an area they believed to be controlled by Al-Qaeda forces. As they were flying over in the middle of the night, they saw ground fire coming up from the ground, and they believed they needed to engage in self- defense. They asked for permission from a military plane that was flying overhead. They were not granted permission at first. The ground fire continued, and that's when decided they needed to respond in self-defense. They dropped a 500-pound bomb. Major Harry Schmidt did that. He was Umbach's wingman at the time, and they killed four Canadian soldiers on the ground who were involved in a live-fire training mission.

It was after that point, they were told, that friendlies were in the area. So defense attorneys for these two pilots will say that there was a communication breakdown, and that was what led them this accident to happen, and they also point to the use of so called go pills, a drug called Dexatrim (ph), that is used -- given to Air Force pilots in these long missions. They were flying a 10-hour mission that night.

The Air Force says these are given in minuscule amounts and shouldn't cause problems. These two pilots say that this drug, essentially speed, and even the FDA says you shouldn't operate heavy machinery while taking these drugs. So that will be an issue that comes up over the course of the next two weeks in this hearing -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Ed Lavandera, thank you so much.

With more on that now, here's Leon.

LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Scott Silliman is a law professor at Duke University. He's also a former military lawyer following this case. He joins us from Durham, North Carolina to talk about the pilot's case and whatever else may be happening in this article 32, Harry.

Good to see you again, Scott.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, FMR. AIR FORCE ATTY.: Good to be with you and Daryn again.

HARRIS: Now you've talked about this issue with the go pills once before. What do you think of it now that we've had time to examine that's what's been going on here? The families are all saying, as well as the pilots are saying, they were forced, if nothing else, just by camaraderie or just by expectations that they're supposed to take these pills as pilots.

SILLIMAN: Well, Leon, this is an issue, obviously, that's going to be looked at in this article 32 investigation, which as your reporter said, is the equivalent of a grand jury investigation, with one fundamental difference, of course, the two crew members and their attorneys are present and they're able to offer their own evidence.

But I think the Air Force is going to suggest in their hearing that the use of these go pills has been going on since World War II, and that pilots are not required to take them. It's strictly voluntary. The paperwork seems to suggest that. And further, that anytime these pills are prescribed, it is only after the pilots have actually gone through ground testing to see whether there is any possible side effect that's the result of these pills.

HARRIS: Yes, but, Scott, it seems like what we're hearing, that's what the paperwork says, but what the people involved here are saying is that, yes, it's voluntary, but it's voluntary like a code of silence is in amongst the police forces across the country, that sort of thing.

SILLIMAN: Well, again, that's something that is going to have to be brought to the attention of the convening authority general Carsland (ph) in his determination on whether the facts in their totality merit taking the charges to a trial by court martial, or whether there's some other disposition.

This whole question of the go pills though, Leon, I think is -- I'm sorry, the issue of the go pills is really a matter raised by the defense. The question is on the operative facts. The rules of engagement call for them not to descend into the threat environment, but climb away. Whether their judgment was clouded by the use of the pills, that's something to be considered by this very seasoned Air Force judge, who's the investigating officer.

HARRIS: Let me ask you about this. There's also some politics at play here. The families are alleging, and so are the defense attorneys , as well, that the reason why the Air Force is going after these two pilots is all politics, because the U.S. needs Canada right now to maintain support in Afghanistan, and possibly in Iraq as well, because they say hundreds of Afghans have been killed. No one has ever been brought up on charges for that. However, these two Canadian troops lose their lives, and all of a sudden, it's an issue here.

SILLIMAN: Well, Leon, let me remind your viewers that back in 1994, the Air Force pursued criminal charges when we had a couple of helicopters shot down in Iraq, and the question there was, was there sufficient negligence to merit criminal charges. That's the question that's being looked at now. Again, no decision has been made to go to trial yet. That's still left to General Carsland as to whether the facts support the charges. So that's happening at Barksdale.

HARRIS: We'll have to leave it there, and we'll follow this case as it does continue.

Scott Silliman, Duke University, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com