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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Weapons Inspectors in Iraq Uncover Collection of Warheads

Aired January 16, 2003 - 17:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young girls who are unsure of themselves would run away and didn't have any place to go to.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hollywood murder mystery, what made Robert Blake break down?

And, how depression can take an added toll on women, I'll speak with TV's Berman and Berman.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: It's Thursday, January 16, 2003. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: President Bush meanwhile has made it clear he's growing impatient with Iraq. Does today's discovery give him a reason to act? Here's CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The White House is not calling the discovery of empty chemical warheads a smoking gun but the Bush administration is encouraged by what it sees as mounting evidence against Saddam Hussein.

President Bush was notified of the findings but is waiting for more information before commenting on their significance. Earlier in Scranton, Pennsylvania, the president made clear that Saddam Hussein continues to hide weapons of mass destruction and warned the end game is near.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's his choice to make. So far the evidence hasn't been very good that he is disarming and time is running out. At some point in time, the United States' patience will run out. In the name of peace if he does not disarm, I will lead a coalition of the willing to disarm Saddam Hussein.

MALVEAUX: This brought on by the harshest language yet from the U.N.'s Chief Weapons Inspector Hans Blix. HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: The message that we want to bring to Baghdad is that the situation is very tense and very dangerous.

MALVEAUX: Blix maintains January 27, the day U.N. weapons inspectors report their findings to the U.N. Security Council will only act as a status report, but a White House spokesman insists it's an important benchmark in helping the president determine whether the U.S. will go to war.

But White House strategy is to continue to push for aggressive inspections and access to Iraqi scientists for interviews about possible hidden weapons. Mr. Bush insists Saddam Hussein still has time to comply, to account for any weapons programs, but it's not much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: A senior administration officials says discovery of these empty chemical warheads does raise a lot of questions that Saddam Hussein must answer to but it is not essential in proving that he refuses to disarm -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, Suzanne thanks very much. The U.N. official directing the U.N. hunt for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, of course, is Hans Blix. He talked about the situation with our CNN Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth. The exclusive interview took place before the U.N. announced the discovery of empty chemical warheads in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: In the late '60s in the United States, there was a movie called "If it's Tuesday, it Must be Belgium." Well, we're a few days off from that, but we are passing through the fields of Belgium en route to Paris.

Not exactly a stranger on the train here is Dr. Hans Blix, the chairman of UNMOVIC, the U.N. weapons inspectors agency. While you're here going through the mist outside of Belgium and France (AUDIO GAP) going into the homes of scientists in Baghdad. That's something new. What's the goal?

BLIX: Well, we go to a lot of different sites in Iraq and we are free to go everywhere. It's important that there should be no sanctuaries. If you go to a private house, it may be because you may believe that they have some documents, for instance stored away, and you may want to see if that's true.

ROTH: How close are you to getting a picture of any potential smoking gun or cache of weapons of mass destruction in any way?

BLIX: Well, the more intelligence tips we get and the better they are, the closer you'll be to finding something and we will certainly inform the Security Council if that happens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Richard Roth speaking with Hans Blix earlier today in Europe.

Meanwhile, a group opposed to the war with Iraq is debuting a new commercial in 13 U.S. cities. It's an updated version of an ad that Democrats ran in the 1964 presidential campaign. Many of you will remember that ad when you see this one.

A group called MoveOn.org is behind the new ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: War with Iraq, maybe it will end quickly, maybe not. Maybe it will spread. Maybe extremists may take over countries with nuclear weapons, maybe the unthinkable. Maybe that's why Americans are saying to President Bush, let the inspections work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And the Dalai Lama weighed in as well today making a plea for a peaceful end to the Iraqi crisis. He said a war would lead to a "trail of destruction that would have a global impact." The Tibetan spiritual leader and Nobel Laureate spoke at a Buddhist festival in India.

Hans Blix's warnings to Iraq about a possible war send the price of oil to a new two year high today. U.S. light crude closed at $33.60 a barrel. U.S. crude inventories are near their lowest level in more than two decades because of a strike in Venezuela, and oil dealers worry about a major global supply crunch if a war cuts Iraqi exports.

In a bid to avoid war with Iraq, Saudi Arabia is reportedly pushing a plan aimed at overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Time.com, citing well placed sources, says the plan calls for the Iraqi leader's own generals to oust him from power.

Joining us now live from New York to talk more about this, Time.com's world editor Tony Karon, Tony give us the gist of the story that you guys are breaking.

TONY KARON, WORLD EDITOR, TIME.COM: Good afternoon, Wolf. Well, our correspondent in the Middle East has learned from senior sources in Riyadh, Western and Arab diplomatic sources, that the Saudis have a proposal that would require the U.N. Security Council to offer blanket amnesty to officials of the Iraqi regime, all but the 120 or so around Saddam Hussein, with the idea that that would isolate Saddam's inner circle and point even the Republican Guard to overthrow him, and in that way they could keep the body of the regime while lopping off the head.

BLITZER: The Saudis aren't doing this alone. They've got some allies in the Arab world presumably helping them, is that what you're reporting as well?

KARON: Correct. The Saudis are in consultation with the Egyptians, with the Turks, and they've made clear that this is the Arab proposal that they believe will avert war at the 11th hour.

BLITZER: Does anyone really believe though that this has a chance of succeeding?

KARON: Well, you have to figure that the United Nations is not exactly in the business of offering amnesties on the one hand. It's not even empowered to and on the other hand implementing coups, so in that sense certainly a long shot but it certainly signals that the Saudi intention is going to be to get the U.S. to somehow very strongly signal Iraqi power players that there is a way out of this if they overthrow Saddam and to make that the most attractive option.

BLITZER: What about the other option we've heard Saddam Hussein leaving Iraq and going into exile someplace?

KARON: Well, the idea of Saddam settling for a life of letters in some eastern European or Arab capital seems to be a little far- fetched for a man who fantasizes himself as some kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) figure, champion of the Arab world. It just seems a little implausible and the idea of the Hague being the ultimate destination is probably weighing most heavily on his mind. He's probably in it to the end.

BLITZER: Tony Karon of Time.com, thanks for that information, appreciate it very much.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: Twelve years since the Persian Gulf War, what lessons are there to be learned? Hear from the reporters who were there when the bombs started falling.

Plus --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe that we are just touching the tip of the iceberg.

BLITZER: Every parent's worst nightmare, the sex slave ring that prostituted teen girls. Is it operating in a city near you?

And, Robert Blake's passionate plea hear what he had to say about life behind bars, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A Chicago man is facing felony charges that could get him life in prison. Prosecutors say he was running a sex slave ring that was uncovered when one of the alleged victims escaped.

CNN's Jason Carroll is following the story for us tonight in Detroit - Jason. JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, today we got our first look at a man who police say ran a prostitution ring that operated more like a cult.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The People of the State of Michigan versus Henry Charles Davis.

CARROLL (voice-over): The alleged mastermind of a for sex prostitution ring stood in a Detroit courtroom to hear the charges against him. Henry Davis faces charges of kidnapping, pandering, and criminal sexual conduct. Davis' attorney entered a plea on his behalf of not guilty.

Davis is accused of running the prostitution ring out of this house in Detroit as well as in two other states. Police on Thursday released more details on how they think it operated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears to have operated much like a cult, that is they would pick on women or girls who were runaways, who were estranged from their family, who they thought were vulnerable. They had something they called violating, which is all of the people in the house would beat up a woman who has misbehaved.

CARROLL: Detectives cracked the case because a 17-year-old girl who told police she had been kidnapped and forced to perform sexual acts at the house risked being punished by her captors and escaped. Davis made no comment about the case during his arraignment but police say he did have something to say when he was arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did make a comment to one of the officers that, oh you're talking about everything bad that I did but nothing is being discussed about the good I did for these girls. The man is living on another planet.

CARROLL: Detectives say the prostitution ring may have been in operation since 1995, but in the past they say they have had difficulty in making cases because they've been unable to verify complaints from alleged victims.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And Davis is being held on $2 million bail. Detectives expect a significant number of defendants to be named in the coming days or weeks - Wolf.

BLITZER: A shocking story.

Jason Carroll in Detroit for us once again. Jason, thanks very much.

Robert Blake behind bars. The torment of a former star -- find out what he has to say about life behind bars.

Also, open access or access denied, military spin and front line reporting. See how he potential next big war might get covered. We'll speak with Bernard Shaw, Peter Arnett and Arthur Kent.

And, President Bush takes a stand against affirmative action. Hear from the man who helped shape his policy. I'll ask some tough questions to the White House counsel.

That's coming up, but first a look at news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Staying power, Venezuela's general strike has entered its seventh week. Opponents of President Huge Chavez want new elections and they're threatening round-the-clock protests if they don't get them.

College controversy, the U.S. State Department is questioning Israel's action shutting down two Palestinian universities. A State Department spokesman says Israel has a right to live in security but Palestinians have the right to live their lives as normally as possible.

Deep-sea discovery, you're looking back thousands of years at cargo from a ship that sank in the Black Sea between the third and fifth century, B.C. The wooden ship has rotted away leaving clay jars used to transport the ship's cargo including dried fish, a staple of the Ancient Greek diet, and that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More drama in the already dramatic case of Robert Blake. The actor broke into tears during a deposition for a civil case stemming from his wife's murder which he's charged with committing.

CNN's Charles Feldman has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meet Robert Blake, consummate actor, accused murderer, despondent prisoner.

ROBERT BLAKE, DEFENDANT: I have no human contact. I get out for ten minutes every other day for a shower by myself. I get lawyer visits by myself. I get a priest for a half hour on Sunday when he's in town in my cell with two guards watching to see that I behave. I get to shake his hand. That's the human contact that I have. Once a week I get to shake a guy's hand.

FELDMAN: Robert Blake, study of a man in conflict, ordered to give a videotape deposition in a civil suit against him for allegedly killing his wife, ordered by his criminal lawyer not to answer any questions from the lawyer for his dead wife's estate before a criminal trial decides his fate.

This is what happened when the civil lawyer tried to ask Blake about his slain wife, Bonny Lee Bakley.

ERIC DUBIN, BAKLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Did you love Bonny Lee Bakley?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Blake, I'm ordering you not to respond to that question, and as you agent I am asserting all of your constitutional rights and privileges under the United States and the California constitutions.

FELDMAN: The civil lawyer tries another question, this time about the child Blake had with Bakley.

DUBIN: Do you want Rosie to know the truth about this crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Blake, I'm ordering you not to respond to that or any other question. This is strictly a publicity stunt by this lawyer.

FELDMAN: So frustrated was Blake's attorney that he repeatedly threatened to quit on the spot if Blake answered any questions, and there was conflict between Blake's lawyer and the Bakley attorney.

DUBIN: I want him to tell the truth. Let him tell the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Dubin it's obvious what you're doing. You're putting on a nice circus and a nice clown show for the media.

DUBIN: You're the only clown here right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is not going to respond. Mr. Dubin...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FELDMAN: Now things got so bad at the deposition Wednesday, Blake actually broke down and started to cry. Meantime, tomorrow in court another Blake criminal lawyer will ask off the case because her client doesn't want to keep his mouth shut - Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, I know you'll be covering the story for us as well.

Charles Feldman in Los Angeles. Thanks Charles, very much.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: They risk their lives to bring you stories of the Persian Gulf War. Now, in a rare reunion, join Bernard Shaw, Peter Arnett, and Arthur Kent on the pitfalls and the dangers that lie ahead and what they make of Saddam Hussein. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer.

Coming up, the journalists who witnessed the bombs fall and almost got hit themselves. Join us for this 12th anniversary of the Gulf War. We'll talk with Bernard Shaw, Peter Arnett, and Arthur Kent.

But first, let's look at some stories making news right now in our CNN "News Alert."

(NEWS ALERT)

BLITZER: As Washington continues preparations for a possible war with Iraq, it's making plans on how to handle the news media.

While reporters saw relatively little combat during the recent conflict in Afghanistan, things could be different the next time around. Here's Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post" and CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES" (voice-over): During the war in Afghanistan, journalists got most of their information from this man and this man and this woman, Pentagon Spokeswoman Tori Clarke.

Well, now Clarke says that if the United States invades Iraq, reporters will be allowed to tag along with combat units. Some were recently trained, a few with minor injuries, at a Pentagon boot camp.

Military officials have been wary of the press ever since the days of Vietnam, when daily coverage helped turn the public against that jungle war. The first Gulf War was largely a video game war, covered from afar. The lack of frontline correspondents during the Afghan war meant reporters had to rely on the military for information.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We conducted a raid against Taliban leadership in a mountain region north of Kandahar. Our forces attacked two compounds and detained 27 individuals. There were enemy forces killed in this action and one U.S. special forces soldier was slightly injured.

KURTZ: But "The New York Times," "Los Angeles Times" and Knight Ridder later discovered, that the casualties were not Taliban members after all and the captives were released, the kind of public embarrassment that might have been avoided if journalists had been at the scene.

Two months later, when CNN's Martin Savidge was allowed to accompany U.S. forces for Operation Anaconda, on condition that he share his footage with the other networks, viewers got a real-time look at the hunt for al Qaeda terrorists.

The upside for the Pentagon is that media coverage allows the public to see fighting American men and women risking their lives, as some veteran military men are coming to realize.

The downside is a brighter spotlight when things go wrong and a starker depiction of the blood and guts of war, not to mention the potential danger to the journalists involved. There are compromises for the news business as well. Reporters who travel with troops must agree to hold back certain information and there may be battles over censorship, as there was when another President Bush waged war in the Gulf. Then, when reporters finally got to cover the ground war in Kuwait, military officials blocked or delayed some stories and changed one reporter's description of -- quote -- "giddy pilots" to "proud."

(on camera): Now journalists, feeling burned by previous conflicts, will be pushing hard for every bit of access the Pentagon is willing to provide.

This is Howard Kurtz, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And it was on this day exactly 12 years ago that a U.S.-led coalition began its attack on Iraq, launching the first and so far only Persian Gulf War.

We asked three journalists who covered that war to join us earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Joining us now, Bernard Shaw, the former CNN anchor; Peter Arnett, the former CNN correspondent; and Arthur Kent, the former NBC News correspondent, who's now got an excellent series on the History Channel on the Gulf War airing this week.

Thanks to all of you for joining us.

Bernie, let's begin with you. It's a lot different covering potentially the next war than it was the last war.

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: But still, the challenge remains, Wolf. Access and the ability to move around and to be independent of any government entity, be it Iraqi, American or British. That's still the consummate challenge.

BLITZER: There's always going to be a challenge, Peter, between what the journalists want and what the Pentagon wants. But how do you deal with that challenge?

PETER ARNETT, FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, you look for an opportunity, Wolf, to try and get around those controls. And the Gulf War, as Arthur knows well, after awhile, journalists started to sneak around the censorship.

In Baghdad, you know, when the war was progressing, you know, journalists were able to get more a little more independent as government controls lessened. That's what the journalists are looking for, in an independent operations. It makes the journalism business pretty exciting.

BLITZER: Arthur, what do you think -- what's going to be the biggest difference the next time around, if indeed there is another Gulf War?

ARTHUR KENT, FORMER NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think, you know, basically I echo what Bernie and Peter have said.

But look at the poisonous situation surrounding Iraq at present. The vast difference between the environment now politically, geopolitically now, to what it was 12 years ago: Hot war in Israel, the struggle against international terrorism, the absence of enthusiastic allies for a U.S.-led military assault on Iraq.

So, you know, I would go back to what Bernie said. We've got to get coverage from all sides; free as much as possible of censorship so that people back home can understand the high -- the dramatically higher stakes we're playing for this time.

SHAW: But you know, Arthur, and Peter and Wolf, the fact of the matter is, in war, all government's censored; the Americans, the British, the French, the Israelis, the Iraqis.

And if there is a Gulf War 2, there's going to be intense censorship, and what really bothers me is this idea of the United States military, at the Pentagon's direction, taking journalists into combat units. Once journalists agree to that, in my judgment, they effectively become hostages because the military commanders will not only control their movements, but when and where they can file their stories.

BLITZER: Peter, what about that? You were once embedded with U.S. troops during the Vietnam War. If U.S. journalists are so-called embedded with U.S. combat forces as they go into Iraq, does that compromise the journalistic responsibility that they have?

ARNETT: We spent a lot of time with U.S. troops in Vietnam, Wolf, and from the beginning to the end, we were never embedded. We were free to come and go as much as we liked, as much as we could -- you know, as much as we needed to to get our stories. We were never embedded and we were never told what to write, or we were never, you know, censored in any way, shape or form.

I think Bernie has a very good point. But, you know, it takes two to tango and the media industry agreed to the embedding of American correspondents with these units. They'll probably be wearing uniforms. I don't know. Maybe they'll have ranks. I mean, this is something new in the modern era.

BLITZER: Arthur Kent, what do you think about that?

KENT: It's a huge risk. Bernie's right.

But, you know, I hark back to situations previously, as Peter said. And in my experience, when we were with, for instance, the Afghan resistance, the mujahadeen, during the Soviet War, when we were with Soviet forces in Afghanistan. I mean, you travel. You are definitely under the supervision, under the sway of the armed combatants, that you are, after all, as an unarmed correspondent, accompanying. But you have to maintain your freedom of movement, your freedom to file and, most of all, your objectivity and your ability to see things as plainly as possible.

But I would place one more caveat on that. Certainly, I think that we should try to get as many reporters as possible with the U.S., the British and, yes, if possible, with the Iraqi militaries, too.

SHAW: I'm shaking my head. I agree with the philosophical theme that Arthur just spoke, but war is the unexpected and the unpredictable. And you cannot tell me that a United States military commander, who's got about 20 journalists under tow, when it hits the fan is going to allow a correspondent to use a satellite telephone and possibly compromise his unit's position or location, or let reporters wander off willey nilley when they want to file a story. It doesn't work that way.

BLITZER: I want Peter Arnett to talk a little bit about Saddam Hussein. All of us remember that interview you had with him. Not many journalists have actually spoken the Iraqi leader. What do you believe he will do if it comes down to the U.S. going in and the possibility of Saddam Hussein seeking exile outside his country.

ARNETT: Certainly he gave no indication of that in the interview I had with him 12 years ago and he's given no indication since.

I asked him during the interview, for example, an important point that's come up again. Would he use weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological, against Israel or against American forces in Saudi Arabia? And his answer was, the Koran preaches restraint. I will use them only if I'm pushed to the wall.

Now the issue is, is he willing to be pushed to the wall to the degree where these weapons would be used, if he has them. Or will he, in the end, you know, faced with an enormous amount of forces, be willing to seek some political compromise that could be in the cards.

BLITZER: Bernie, you interviewed Saddam Hussein in October, just before the Gulf War in 1990. You got a sense of this man.

SHAW: Well, Wolf, in response to questions like that questions with that kind of tone and possible meaning, it was -- it's Allah's will.

BLITZER: Is that what he said to you?

SHAW: Yes. Essentially.

BLITZER: What -- let me let you button it up, Arthur Kent, and reflect a little bit not only on what happened, but right now.

What do you see happening, as a lot of our viewers want to know -- what do you see happening in the weeks and months to come?

KENT: I think it's impossible to overstate the sensitivity -- the acute sensitivity -- and the growing sense here in Europe, in the middle east, elsewhere in the region around Iraq of anti-Western and, yes, anti-American feeling.

Even if a U.S.-led military assault did a slam dunk and actually got Saddam Hussein this time and his weapons of mass destruction, the kind of conventional military assault that is being discussed will cause such damage, such destruction and loss of life in Iraq, that we'll see liberal Muslim, open-minded Islamic opinion, turning decidedly against the West and who does that help? Remember him? Osama bin Laden and the terrorists of the world. Very dangerous time.

BLITZER: Arthur Kent ending this conversation. Thanks to you very much. All of us remember those first days of the Gulf war 12 years ago, where you were.

Peter Arnett, of course, we remember you very vividly and Bernard Shaw as well.

Missing from this picture, sadly, John Holliman. He was one of the boys of Baghdad as well. He unfortunately died in a tragic car accident a few years ago.

Thanks to all of you for joining us on this anniversary of the start of the Gulf War.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our web question of the day is this, "Should journalists be allowed to report alongside troops in frontline positions?" We'll have results later in the broadcast. Vote at cnn.com/wolf. While you're there I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some on the air at the end of the day on this program. That's all, of course, where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

Is the West Wing wrong on affirmative action? I'll ask the man who helped shape the president's policy when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: Turning to other news as we reported yesterday, President Bush has instructed his lawyers to file a brief with the U.S. Supreme Court challenging the University of Michigan's admissions policy. The president is siding with three white students denied admissions into Michigan. The students contend that they had the grades and qualify at least equal to minority students who were admitted to the university. The president calls Michigan's policy a quota system.

Joining us now to talk about this, someone who helped shape the president's legal stance on this, the counsel at the White House Alberto Gonzales.

Mr. Gonzales, thank you very much for joining us. The upshot, if the president gets his way and these affirmative action programs are denied, won't that mean at least in the short term fewer African-American's, fewer Hispanics at prestige universities around the United States.

ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Absolutely not, Wolf. The president emphasized yesterday how important it is to have diversity in our colleges and universities. And I think we can all agree that's extremely important goal. The question is, how do we achieve that goal? And what the president is urging is that colleges and universities employ race neutral means in order to achieve that very important goal.

BLITZER: Many of these admissions officer, I have spoken to them at the University of Michigan and other important universities. University of Texas, other schools around the country say that if they just have to go on the numbers, the SATs, grade point averages, lot of these black kids, a lot of these black kids, a lot Hispanic kids are simply not going to get into Michigan or Texas or other major universities.

GONZALES: I think that's probably true. So what colleges and universities have to do is be creative in developing other criteria in judging a person's potential. Make a decision -- we want to attract students who come from bilingual homes. We want to attract students who come from families who have suffered discrimination. So, if they look at a person's life experiences and make decisions based upon life experiences, I think there's a very good possibility that in fact we'll see the numbers of minorities in colleges and universities, those numbers will continue to increase.

BLITZER: You're Hispanic, proud of it. What happens if in the short term the Supreme Court rules in favor with the president wants and we see a precipitous drop in Hispanics and African-Americans at major universities? What do you do then?

GONZALES: We can't let that happen. We need to work with colleges and universities to look at other admissions criteria. We need to do it in government what we can to encourage that. Obviously we also need to focus on the fundamental problem and that is the poor education that minority students are receiving k through 12. So those are things we need to look at...

BLITZER: At the same time you're going to go ahead with this, get more money for education, try to help these kids?

GONZALES: We need to look at a wide range of things, but it is wrong to assume simply because a decision may be made by this court that initially race cannot be used as a factor in admissions decision that the number of minorities is going to decrease. We cannot let that happen.

BLITZER: All right. You're still writing the brief even though you have to submit it by midnight tonight?

GONZALES: The lawyers at the solicitor general's office are still working on the brief.

BLITZER: Going to have it ready in time?

GONZALES: We have to have it ready in time.

BLITZER: Mr. Gonzales, thanks for joining us.

GONZALES: Pleasure.

BLITZER: The blues may be more than just depressing. It apparently can trigger early menopause. The love, sex and health experts Laura Berman and her sister Jennifer will join me live when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The sometimes devastating effects of depression are, of course, very well-known, but now a new study says depression can now lead to early onset of menopause, putting women at risk sooner of the health problems associated with this. Joining us now to talk about this study from Los Angeles urologist Jennifer Berman, and from Chicago, her sister, sex therapist Laura Berman. They're the hosts of "For Women Only" on the Discovery Health Channel.

Thanks very much for joining us. Jennifer, I know you've looked at this study. Tell us how serious of a study this is.

DR. JENNIFER BERMAN, CO-HOST, "BERMAN & BERMAN FOR WOMEN ONLY": I think it's a serious study and an important study and also meaningful. The question is which comes first, the chicken or egg? Does the depression lead to early menopause changes or are women depressed because they're having hormonal symptoms? So it's really hard to tell.

The one thing from the study they said it's life-long depression. What does life-long mean? Since the age of 10 or the age of 20? So that was a little bit confusing. But clearly it is true that depression and stress can cause hormonal changes and early signs of menopause.

BLITZER: So what, Laura, what about that? What do you have to deal with the depression early on to try to ease this potential problem? Is that the recommendation?

LAURA BERMAN, CO-HOST, "BERMAN & BERMAN FOR WOMEN ONLY": Absolutely. I mean, depression has devastating effects in all areas of life. And now this study is really important because once again it highlights the crucial connection between our minds and our bodies.

And the fact that women who are struggling with chronic depression or chronic stress can have physical effects and they can experience a change in hormones. And because of that not only are they at risk for osteoporosis, but they can be at risk for a low libido and other kinds of sexual function complaints and other kinds of physical symptoms. So it's really important to pay attention to our emotional life as well as our physical life. J. BERMAN: And not just blame sexual function symptoms on being depressed, that there might be a hormonal basis for it. So just because a woman's depressed don't say, Oh, your lack of sex drive is because you're depressed. Could also be that they're having early signs of menopause.

BLITZER: Let me switch topics for a second, Laura, because there's so much fascination with some of these reality shows that are out there. "The Bachelor," "The Bachelorette," "Joe Millionaire." This whole notion of love at first sight, is that a realistic notion or is that simply a fairy tale?

L. BERMAN: Well there is something to be said. We certainly can have a physical reaction. There's something that is commonly referred to as a love map. That it's cemented by the time we're age seven. Who we're attracted to is pretty firm in our minds.

So when you meet someone with whom you had that initial chemistry, that's very real. That initial chemistry is very different than being in love. And love is something that's more emotional and that grows over time once you see whether you're compatible with someone. But certainly sexual attraction can be an immediate effect.

BLITZER: What about that, Jennifer?

J. BERMAN: Well, the problem is that, yes, they're lusting after each other and yes they're attracted, but what happens when they move into the next phase and the pressure on them to get married? So at least from the reality television standpoint.

So I think that it is a little bit unrealistic to assume that these people are quote, unquote "in love." But as Laura said, certainly the lust and attraction is there.

BLITZER: Laura, have these shows had any serious impact, pro or con, positive/negative on the whole institution of marriage and relationships, the important relationships out there? What effect are you seeing, for example, on some of your patients?

L. BERMAN: Well it does sort of promote this sort of fairy tale concept of what relationships should be. Certainly in these reality shows where everything is beautiful and perfect in terms of setting and circumstances, and that's not the way real life is. So it does promote an unrealistic expectation.

The same, more and more people are talking about the idea of falling in love consciously. And in these cases that's sort of the same thing, that these two people are coming together, if they have enough things in common, if there's a sexual attraction. They get engaged. Whether or not they actually get married is another factor.

And I don't think we've seen any of these reality shows lead to two people getting married in terms of "The Bachelor" and "Bachelorette." They may get engaged but I haven't seen any of them get married yet. BLITZER: Laura Berman, always good to have you on the show. Jennifer Berman, as well. Jennifer is about to give birth. Good luck to you.

J. BERMAN: Right here.

BLITZER: Next time we see you, we might see an additional child out there. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

J. BERMAN: Thanks.

L. BERMAN: Take care.

BLITZER: Time's running out for your turn to weigh in on our "Web Question of the Day. Should journalists be allowed to report alongside troops in frontline positions? Log on to cnn.com/wolf. that's where you can vote. We'll have the results immediately when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Time now for our "Picture of the Day." Lots of people feel like they spend all days going in circles. These penguins really are. Since November the San Francisco Zoo's flock of 52 penguins have spent all day every day swimming circles around the pool in their habitat.

It started when six new birds arrived from Ohio. Zoo keepers think they may be the driving force behind the strange behavior, although no one, no one is really sure why this is going on. We'll continue to follow this story, bring you details, of course, once they become available.

Here's how you're weighing in on our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, we've been asking you this: should journalists be allowed to report alongside troops in frontline positions? Look at this. Fifty-two percent of you so far say yes, 48 percent of you say no. you can find the exact vote tally, continue to vote by the way, on our Web site. Just go to cnn.com/wolf. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

That's all the time we have today. Please join me again tomorrow 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

Don't forget "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ" weekdays at noon Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired January 16, 2003 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young girls who are unsure of themselves would run away and didn't have any place to go to.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hollywood murder mystery, what made Robert Blake break down?

And, how depression can take an added toll on women, I'll speak with TV's Berman and Berman.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: It's Thursday, January 16, 2003. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: President Bush meanwhile has made it clear he's growing impatient with Iraq. Does today's discovery give him a reason to act? Here's CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The White House is not calling the discovery of empty chemical warheads a smoking gun but the Bush administration is encouraged by what it sees as mounting evidence against Saddam Hussein.

President Bush was notified of the findings but is waiting for more information before commenting on their significance. Earlier in Scranton, Pennsylvania, the president made clear that Saddam Hussein continues to hide weapons of mass destruction and warned the end game is near.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's his choice to make. So far the evidence hasn't been very good that he is disarming and time is running out. At some point in time, the United States' patience will run out. In the name of peace if he does not disarm, I will lead a coalition of the willing to disarm Saddam Hussein.

MALVEAUX: This brought on by the harshest language yet from the U.N.'s Chief Weapons Inspector Hans Blix. HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: The message that we want to bring to Baghdad is that the situation is very tense and very dangerous.

MALVEAUX: Blix maintains January 27, the day U.N. weapons inspectors report their findings to the U.N. Security Council will only act as a status report, but a White House spokesman insists it's an important benchmark in helping the president determine whether the U.S. will go to war.

But White House strategy is to continue to push for aggressive inspections and access to Iraqi scientists for interviews about possible hidden weapons. Mr. Bush insists Saddam Hussein still has time to comply, to account for any weapons programs, but it's not much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: A senior administration officials says discovery of these empty chemical warheads does raise a lot of questions that Saddam Hussein must answer to but it is not essential in proving that he refuses to disarm -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, Suzanne thanks very much. The U.N. official directing the U.N. hunt for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, of course, is Hans Blix. He talked about the situation with our CNN Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth. The exclusive interview took place before the U.N. announced the discovery of empty chemical warheads in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: In the late '60s in the United States, there was a movie called "If it's Tuesday, it Must be Belgium." Well, we're a few days off from that, but we are passing through the fields of Belgium en route to Paris.

Not exactly a stranger on the train here is Dr. Hans Blix, the chairman of UNMOVIC, the U.N. weapons inspectors agency. While you're here going through the mist outside of Belgium and France (AUDIO GAP) going into the homes of scientists in Baghdad. That's something new. What's the goal?

BLIX: Well, we go to a lot of different sites in Iraq and we are free to go everywhere. It's important that there should be no sanctuaries. If you go to a private house, it may be because you may believe that they have some documents, for instance stored away, and you may want to see if that's true.

ROTH: How close are you to getting a picture of any potential smoking gun or cache of weapons of mass destruction in any way?

BLIX: Well, the more intelligence tips we get and the better they are, the closer you'll be to finding something and we will certainly inform the Security Council if that happens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Richard Roth speaking with Hans Blix earlier today in Europe.

Meanwhile, a group opposed to the war with Iraq is debuting a new commercial in 13 U.S. cities. It's an updated version of an ad that Democrats ran in the 1964 presidential campaign. Many of you will remember that ad when you see this one.

A group called MoveOn.org is behind the new ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: War with Iraq, maybe it will end quickly, maybe not. Maybe it will spread. Maybe extremists may take over countries with nuclear weapons, maybe the unthinkable. Maybe that's why Americans are saying to President Bush, let the inspections work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And the Dalai Lama weighed in as well today making a plea for a peaceful end to the Iraqi crisis. He said a war would lead to a "trail of destruction that would have a global impact." The Tibetan spiritual leader and Nobel Laureate spoke at a Buddhist festival in India.

Hans Blix's warnings to Iraq about a possible war send the price of oil to a new two year high today. U.S. light crude closed at $33.60 a barrel. U.S. crude inventories are near their lowest level in more than two decades because of a strike in Venezuela, and oil dealers worry about a major global supply crunch if a war cuts Iraqi exports.

In a bid to avoid war with Iraq, Saudi Arabia is reportedly pushing a plan aimed at overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Time.com, citing well placed sources, says the plan calls for the Iraqi leader's own generals to oust him from power.

Joining us now live from New York to talk more about this, Time.com's world editor Tony Karon, Tony give us the gist of the story that you guys are breaking.

TONY KARON, WORLD EDITOR, TIME.COM: Good afternoon, Wolf. Well, our correspondent in the Middle East has learned from senior sources in Riyadh, Western and Arab diplomatic sources, that the Saudis have a proposal that would require the U.N. Security Council to offer blanket amnesty to officials of the Iraqi regime, all but the 120 or so around Saddam Hussein, with the idea that that would isolate Saddam's inner circle and point even the Republican Guard to overthrow him, and in that way they could keep the body of the regime while lopping off the head.

BLITZER: The Saudis aren't doing this alone. They've got some allies in the Arab world presumably helping them, is that what you're reporting as well?

KARON: Correct. The Saudis are in consultation with the Egyptians, with the Turks, and they've made clear that this is the Arab proposal that they believe will avert war at the 11th hour.

BLITZER: Does anyone really believe though that this has a chance of succeeding?

KARON: Well, you have to figure that the United Nations is not exactly in the business of offering amnesties on the one hand. It's not even empowered to and on the other hand implementing coups, so in that sense certainly a long shot but it certainly signals that the Saudi intention is going to be to get the U.S. to somehow very strongly signal Iraqi power players that there is a way out of this if they overthrow Saddam and to make that the most attractive option.

BLITZER: What about the other option we've heard Saddam Hussein leaving Iraq and going into exile someplace?

KARON: Well, the idea of Saddam settling for a life of letters in some eastern European or Arab capital seems to be a little far- fetched for a man who fantasizes himself as some kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) figure, champion of the Arab world. It just seems a little implausible and the idea of the Hague being the ultimate destination is probably weighing most heavily on his mind. He's probably in it to the end.

BLITZER: Tony Karon of Time.com, thanks for that information, appreciate it very much.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: Twelve years since the Persian Gulf War, what lessons are there to be learned? Hear from the reporters who were there when the bombs started falling.

Plus --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe that we are just touching the tip of the iceberg.

BLITZER: Every parent's worst nightmare, the sex slave ring that prostituted teen girls. Is it operating in a city near you?

And, Robert Blake's passionate plea hear what he had to say about life behind bars, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A Chicago man is facing felony charges that could get him life in prison. Prosecutors say he was running a sex slave ring that was uncovered when one of the alleged victims escaped.

CNN's Jason Carroll is following the story for us tonight in Detroit - Jason. JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, today we got our first look at a man who police say ran a prostitution ring that operated more like a cult.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The People of the State of Michigan versus Henry Charles Davis.

CARROLL (voice-over): The alleged mastermind of a for sex prostitution ring stood in a Detroit courtroom to hear the charges against him. Henry Davis faces charges of kidnapping, pandering, and criminal sexual conduct. Davis' attorney entered a plea on his behalf of not guilty.

Davis is accused of running the prostitution ring out of this house in Detroit as well as in two other states. Police on Thursday released more details on how they think it operated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears to have operated much like a cult, that is they would pick on women or girls who were runaways, who were estranged from their family, who they thought were vulnerable. They had something they called violating, which is all of the people in the house would beat up a woman who has misbehaved.

CARROLL: Detectives cracked the case because a 17-year-old girl who told police she had been kidnapped and forced to perform sexual acts at the house risked being punished by her captors and escaped. Davis made no comment about the case during his arraignment but police say he did have something to say when he was arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did make a comment to one of the officers that, oh you're talking about everything bad that I did but nothing is being discussed about the good I did for these girls. The man is living on another planet.

CARROLL: Detectives say the prostitution ring may have been in operation since 1995, but in the past they say they have had difficulty in making cases because they've been unable to verify complaints from alleged victims.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And Davis is being held on $2 million bail. Detectives expect a significant number of defendants to be named in the coming days or weeks - Wolf.

BLITZER: A shocking story.

Jason Carroll in Detroit for us once again. Jason, thanks very much.

Robert Blake behind bars. The torment of a former star -- find out what he has to say about life behind bars.

Also, open access or access denied, military spin and front line reporting. See how he potential next big war might get covered. We'll speak with Bernard Shaw, Peter Arnett and Arthur Kent.

And, President Bush takes a stand against affirmative action. Hear from the man who helped shape his policy. I'll ask some tough questions to the White House counsel.

That's coming up, but first a look at news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Staying power, Venezuela's general strike has entered its seventh week. Opponents of President Huge Chavez want new elections and they're threatening round-the-clock protests if they don't get them.

College controversy, the U.S. State Department is questioning Israel's action shutting down two Palestinian universities. A State Department spokesman says Israel has a right to live in security but Palestinians have the right to live their lives as normally as possible.

Deep-sea discovery, you're looking back thousands of years at cargo from a ship that sank in the Black Sea between the third and fifth century, B.C. The wooden ship has rotted away leaving clay jars used to transport the ship's cargo including dried fish, a staple of the Ancient Greek diet, and that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More drama in the already dramatic case of Robert Blake. The actor broke into tears during a deposition for a civil case stemming from his wife's murder which he's charged with committing.

CNN's Charles Feldman has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meet Robert Blake, consummate actor, accused murderer, despondent prisoner.

ROBERT BLAKE, DEFENDANT: I have no human contact. I get out for ten minutes every other day for a shower by myself. I get lawyer visits by myself. I get a priest for a half hour on Sunday when he's in town in my cell with two guards watching to see that I behave. I get to shake his hand. That's the human contact that I have. Once a week I get to shake a guy's hand.

FELDMAN: Robert Blake, study of a man in conflict, ordered to give a videotape deposition in a civil suit against him for allegedly killing his wife, ordered by his criminal lawyer not to answer any questions from the lawyer for his dead wife's estate before a criminal trial decides his fate.

This is what happened when the civil lawyer tried to ask Blake about his slain wife, Bonny Lee Bakley.

ERIC DUBIN, BAKLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Did you love Bonny Lee Bakley?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Blake, I'm ordering you not to respond to that question, and as you agent I am asserting all of your constitutional rights and privileges under the United States and the California constitutions.

FELDMAN: The civil lawyer tries another question, this time about the child Blake had with Bakley.

DUBIN: Do you want Rosie to know the truth about this crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Blake, I'm ordering you not to respond to that or any other question. This is strictly a publicity stunt by this lawyer.

FELDMAN: So frustrated was Blake's attorney that he repeatedly threatened to quit on the spot if Blake answered any questions, and there was conflict between Blake's lawyer and the Bakley attorney.

DUBIN: I want him to tell the truth. Let him tell the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Dubin it's obvious what you're doing. You're putting on a nice circus and a nice clown show for the media.

DUBIN: You're the only clown here right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is not going to respond. Mr. Dubin...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FELDMAN: Now things got so bad at the deposition Wednesday, Blake actually broke down and started to cry. Meantime, tomorrow in court another Blake criminal lawyer will ask off the case because her client doesn't want to keep his mouth shut - Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, I know you'll be covering the story for us as well.

Charles Feldman in Los Angeles. Thanks Charles, very much.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: They risk their lives to bring you stories of the Persian Gulf War. Now, in a rare reunion, join Bernard Shaw, Peter Arnett, and Arthur Kent on the pitfalls and the dangers that lie ahead and what they make of Saddam Hussein. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer.

Coming up, the journalists who witnessed the bombs fall and almost got hit themselves. Join us for this 12th anniversary of the Gulf War. We'll talk with Bernard Shaw, Peter Arnett, and Arthur Kent.

But first, let's look at some stories making news right now in our CNN "News Alert."

(NEWS ALERT)

BLITZER: As Washington continues preparations for a possible war with Iraq, it's making plans on how to handle the news media.

While reporters saw relatively little combat during the recent conflict in Afghanistan, things could be different the next time around. Here's Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post" and CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES" (voice-over): During the war in Afghanistan, journalists got most of their information from this man and this man and this woman, Pentagon Spokeswoman Tori Clarke.

Well, now Clarke says that if the United States invades Iraq, reporters will be allowed to tag along with combat units. Some were recently trained, a few with minor injuries, at a Pentagon boot camp.

Military officials have been wary of the press ever since the days of Vietnam, when daily coverage helped turn the public against that jungle war. The first Gulf War was largely a video game war, covered from afar. The lack of frontline correspondents during the Afghan war meant reporters had to rely on the military for information.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We conducted a raid against Taliban leadership in a mountain region north of Kandahar. Our forces attacked two compounds and detained 27 individuals. There were enemy forces killed in this action and one U.S. special forces soldier was slightly injured.

KURTZ: But "The New York Times," "Los Angeles Times" and Knight Ridder later discovered, that the casualties were not Taliban members after all and the captives were released, the kind of public embarrassment that might have been avoided if journalists had been at the scene.

Two months later, when CNN's Martin Savidge was allowed to accompany U.S. forces for Operation Anaconda, on condition that he share his footage with the other networks, viewers got a real-time look at the hunt for al Qaeda terrorists.

The upside for the Pentagon is that media coverage allows the public to see fighting American men and women risking their lives, as some veteran military men are coming to realize.

The downside is a brighter spotlight when things go wrong and a starker depiction of the blood and guts of war, not to mention the potential danger to the journalists involved. There are compromises for the news business as well. Reporters who travel with troops must agree to hold back certain information and there may be battles over censorship, as there was when another President Bush waged war in the Gulf. Then, when reporters finally got to cover the ground war in Kuwait, military officials blocked or delayed some stories and changed one reporter's description of -- quote -- "giddy pilots" to "proud."

(on camera): Now journalists, feeling burned by previous conflicts, will be pushing hard for every bit of access the Pentagon is willing to provide.

This is Howard Kurtz, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And it was on this day exactly 12 years ago that a U.S.-led coalition began its attack on Iraq, launching the first and so far only Persian Gulf War.

We asked three journalists who covered that war to join us earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Joining us now, Bernard Shaw, the former CNN anchor; Peter Arnett, the former CNN correspondent; and Arthur Kent, the former NBC News correspondent, who's now got an excellent series on the History Channel on the Gulf War airing this week.

Thanks to all of you for joining us.

Bernie, let's begin with you. It's a lot different covering potentially the next war than it was the last war.

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: But still, the challenge remains, Wolf. Access and the ability to move around and to be independent of any government entity, be it Iraqi, American or British. That's still the consummate challenge.

BLITZER: There's always going to be a challenge, Peter, between what the journalists want and what the Pentagon wants. But how do you deal with that challenge?

PETER ARNETT, FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, you look for an opportunity, Wolf, to try and get around those controls. And the Gulf War, as Arthur knows well, after awhile, journalists started to sneak around the censorship.

In Baghdad, you know, when the war was progressing, you know, journalists were able to get more a little more independent as government controls lessened. That's what the journalists are looking for, in an independent operations. It makes the journalism business pretty exciting.

BLITZER: Arthur, what do you think -- what's going to be the biggest difference the next time around, if indeed there is another Gulf War?

ARTHUR KENT, FORMER NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think, you know, basically I echo what Bernie and Peter have said.

But look at the poisonous situation surrounding Iraq at present. The vast difference between the environment now politically, geopolitically now, to what it was 12 years ago: Hot war in Israel, the struggle against international terrorism, the absence of enthusiastic allies for a U.S.-led military assault on Iraq.

So, you know, I would go back to what Bernie said. We've got to get coverage from all sides; free as much as possible of censorship so that people back home can understand the high -- the dramatically higher stakes we're playing for this time.

SHAW: But you know, Arthur, and Peter and Wolf, the fact of the matter is, in war, all government's censored; the Americans, the British, the French, the Israelis, the Iraqis.

And if there is a Gulf War 2, there's going to be intense censorship, and what really bothers me is this idea of the United States military, at the Pentagon's direction, taking journalists into combat units. Once journalists agree to that, in my judgment, they effectively become hostages because the military commanders will not only control their movements, but when and where they can file their stories.

BLITZER: Peter, what about that? You were once embedded with U.S. troops during the Vietnam War. If U.S. journalists are so-called embedded with U.S. combat forces as they go into Iraq, does that compromise the journalistic responsibility that they have?

ARNETT: We spent a lot of time with U.S. troops in Vietnam, Wolf, and from the beginning to the end, we were never embedded. We were free to come and go as much as we liked, as much as we could -- you know, as much as we needed to to get our stories. We were never embedded and we were never told what to write, or we were never, you know, censored in any way, shape or form.

I think Bernie has a very good point. But, you know, it takes two to tango and the media industry agreed to the embedding of American correspondents with these units. They'll probably be wearing uniforms. I don't know. Maybe they'll have ranks. I mean, this is something new in the modern era.

BLITZER: Arthur Kent, what do you think about that?

KENT: It's a huge risk. Bernie's right.

But, you know, I hark back to situations previously, as Peter said. And in my experience, when we were with, for instance, the Afghan resistance, the mujahadeen, during the Soviet War, when we were with Soviet forces in Afghanistan. I mean, you travel. You are definitely under the supervision, under the sway of the armed combatants, that you are, after all, as an unarmed correspondent, accompanying. But you have to maintain your freedom of movement, your freedom to file and, most of all, your objectivity and your ability to see things as plainly as possible.

But I would place one more caveat on that. Certainly, I think that we should try to get as many reporters as possible with the U.S., the British and, yes, if possible, with the Iraqi militaries, too.

SHAW: I'm shaking my head. I agree with the philosophical theme that Arthur just spoke, but war is the unexpected and the unpredictable. And you cannot tell me that a United States military commander, who's got about 20 journalists under tow, when it hits the fan is going to allow a correspondent to use a satellite telephone and possibly compromise his unit's position or location, or let reporters wander off willey nilley when they want to file a story. It doesn't work that way.

BLITZER: I want Peter Arnett to talk a little bit about Saddam Hussein. All of us remember that interview you had with him. Not many journalists have actually spoken the Iraqi leader. What do you believe he will do if it comes down to the U.S. going in and the possibility of Saddam Hussein seeking exile outside his country.

ARNETT: Certainly he gave no indication of that in the interview I had with him 12 years ago and he's given no indication since.

I asked him during the interview, for example, an important point that's come up again. Would he use weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological, against Israel or against American forces in Saudi Arabia? And his answer was, the Koran preaches restraint. I will use them only if I'm pushed to the wall.

Now the issue is, is he willing to be pushed to the wall to the degree where these weapons would be used, if he has them. Or will he, in the end, you know, faced with an enormous amount of forces, be willing to seek some political compromise that could be in the cards.

BLITZER: Bernie, you interviewed Saddam Hussein in October, just before the Gulf War in 1990. You got a sense of this man.

SHAW: Well, Wolf, in response to questions like that questions with that kind of tone and possible meaning, it was -- it's Allah's will.

BLITZER: Is that what he said to you?

SHAW: Yes. Essentially.

BLITZER: What -- let me let you button it up, Arthur Kent, and reflect a little bit not only on what happened, but right now.

What do you see happening, as a lot of our viewers want to know -- what do you see happening in the weeks and months to come?

KENT: I think it's impossible to overstate the sensitivity -- the acute sensitivity -- and the growing sense here in Europe, in the middle east, elsewhere in the region around Iraq of anti-Western and, yes, anti-American feeling.

Even if a U.S.-led military assault did a slam dunk and actually got Saddam Hussein this time and his weapons of mass destruction, the kind of conventional military assault that is being discussed will cause such damage, such destruction and loss of life in Iraq, that we'll see liberal Muslim, open-minded Islamic opinion, turning decidedly against the West and who does that help? Remember him? Osama bin Laden and the terrorists of the world. Very dangerous time.

BLITZER: Arthur Kent ending this conversation. Thanks to you very much. All of us remember those first days of the Gulf war 12 years ago, where you were.

Peter Arnett, of course, we remember you very vividly and Bernard Shaw as well.

Missing from this picture, sadly, John Holliman. He was one of the boys of Baghdad as well. He unfortunately died in a tragic car accident a few years ago.

Thanks to all of you for joining us on this anniversary of the start of the Gulf War.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our web question of the day is this, "Should journalists be allowed to report alongside troops in frontline positions?" We'll have results later in the broadcast. Vote at cnn.com/wolf. While you're there I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some on the air at the end of the day on this program. That's all, of course, where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

Is the West Wing wrong on affirmative action? I'll ask the man who helped shape the president's policy when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BLITZER: Turning to other news as we reported yesterday, President Bush has instructed his lawyers to file a brief with the U.S. Supreme Court challenging the University of Michigan's admissions policy. The president is siding with three white students denied admissions into Michigan. The students contend that they had the grades and qualify at least equal to minority students who were admitted to the university. The president calls Michigan's policy a quota system.

Joining us now to talk about this, someone who helped shape the president's legal stance on this, the counsel at the White House Alberto Gonzales.

Mr. Gonzales, thank you very much for joining us. The upshot, if the president gets his way and these affirmative action programs are denied, won't that mean at least in the short term fewer African-American's, fewer Hispanics at prestige universities around the United States.

ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Absolutely not, Wolf. The president emphasized yesterday how important it is to have diversity in our colleges and universities. And I think we can all agree that's extremely important goal. The question is, how do we achieve that goal? And what the president is urging is that colleges and universities employ race neutral means in order to achieve that very important goal.

BLITZER: Many of these admissions officer, I have spoken to them at the University of Michigan and other important universities. University of Texas, other schools around the country say that if they just have to go on the numbers, the SATs, grade point averages, lot of these black kids, a lot of these black kids, a lot Hispanic kids are simply not going to get into Michigan or Texas or other major universities.

GONZALES: I think that's probably true. So what colleges and universities have to do is be creative in developing other criteria in judging a person's potential. Make a decision -- we want to attract students who come from bilingual homes. We want to attract students who come from families who have suffered discrimination. So, if they look at a person's life experiences and make decisions based upon life experiences, I think there's a very good possibility that in fact we'll see the numbers of minorities in colleges and universities, those numbers will continue to increase.

BLITZER: You're Hispanic, proud of it. What happens if in the short term the Supreme Court rules in favor with the president wants and we see a precipitous drop in Hispanics and African-Americans at major universities? What do you do then?

GONZALES: We can't let that happen. We need to work with colleges and universities to look at other admissions criteria. We need to do it in government what we can to encourage that. Obviously we also need to focus on the fundamental problem and that is the poor education that minority students are receiving k through 12. So those are things we need to look at...

BLITZER: At the same time you're going to go ahead with this, get more money for education, try to help these kids?

GONZALES: We need to look at a wide range of things, but it is wrong to assume simply because a decision may be made by this court that initially race cannot be used as a factor in admissions decision that the number of minorities is going to decrease. We cannot let that happen.

BLITZER: All right. You're still writing the brief even though you have to submit it by midnight tonight?

GONZALES: The lawyers at the solicitor general's office are still working on the brief.

BLITZER: Going to have it ready in time?

GONZALES: We have to have it ready in time.

BLITZER: Mr. Gonzales, thanks for joining us.

GONZALES: Pleasure.

BLITZER: The blues may be more than just depressing. It apparently can trigger early menopause. The love, sex and health experts Laura Berman and her sister Jennifer will join me live when we come back.

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BLITZER: The sometimes devastating effects of depression are, of course, very well-known, but now a new study says depression can now lead to early onset of menopause, putting women at risk sooner of the health problems associated with this. Joining us now to talk about this study from Los Angeles urologist Jennifer Berman, and from Chicago, her sister, sex therapist Laura Berman. They're the hosts of "For Women Only" on the Discovery Health Channel.

Thanks very much for joining us. Jennifer, I know you've looked at this study. Tell us how serious of a study this is.

DR. JENNIFER BERMAN, CO-HOST, "BERMAN & BERMAN FOR WOMEN ONLY": I think it's a serious study and an important study and also meaningful. The question is which comes first, the chicken or egg? Does the depression lead to early menopause changes or are women depressed because they're having hormonal symptoms? So it's really hard to tell.

The one thing from the study they said it's life-long depression. What does life-long mean? Since the age of 10 or the age of 20? So that was a little bit confusing. But clearly it is true that depression and stress can cause hormonal changes and early signs of menopause.

BLITZER: So what, Laura, what about that? What do you have to deal with the depression early on to try to ease this potential problem? Is that the recommendation?

LAURA BERMAN, CO-HOST, "BERMAN & BERMAN FOR WOMEN ONLY": Absolutely. I mean, depression has devastating effects in all areas of life. And now this study is really important because once again it highlights the crucial connection between our minds and our bodies.

And the fact that women who are struggling with chronic depression or chronic stress can have physical effects and they can experience a change in hormones. And because of that not only are they at risk for osteoporosis, but they can be at risk for a low libido and other kinds of sexual function complaints and other kinds of physical symptoms. So it's really important to pay attention to our emotional life as well as our physical life. J. BERMAN: And not just blame sexual function symptoms on being depressed, that there might be a hormonal basis for it. So just because a woman's depressed don't say, Oh, your lack of sex drive is because you're depressed. Could also be that they're having early signs of menopause.

BLITZER: Let me switch topics for a second, Laura, because there's so much fascination with some of these reality shows that are out there. "The Bachelor," "The Bachelorette," "Joe Millionaire." This whole notion of love at first sight, is that a realistic notion or is that simply a fairy tale?

L. BERMAN: Well there is something to be said. We certainly can have a physical reaction. There's something that is commonly referred to as a love map. That it's cemented by the time we're age seven. Who we're attracted to is pretty firm in our minds.

So when you meet someone with whom you had that initial chemistry, that's very real. That initial chemistry is very different than being in love. And love is something that's more emotional and that grows over time once you see whether you're compatible with someone. But certainly sexual attraction can be an immediate effect.

BLITZER: What about that, Jennifer?

J. BERMAN: Well, the problem is that, yes, they're lusting after each other and yes they're attracted, but what happens when they move into the next phase and the pressure on them to get married? So at least from the reality television standpoint.

So I think that it is a little bit unrealistic to assume that these people are quote, unquote "in love." But as Laura said, certainly the lust and attraction is there.

BLITZER: Laura, have these shows had any serious impact, pro or con, positive/negative on the whole institution of marriage and relationships, the important relationships out there? What effect are you seeing, for example, on some of your patients?

L. BERMAN: Well it does sort of promote this sort of fairy tale concept of what relationships should be. Certainly in these reality shows where everything is beautiful and perfect in terms of setting and circumstances, and that's not the way real life is. So it does promote an unrealistic expectation.

The same, more and more people are talking about the idea of falling in love consciously. And in these cases that's sort of the same thing, that these two people are coming together, if they have enough things in common, if there's a sexual attraction. They get engaged. Whether or not they actually get married is another factor.

And I don't think we've seen any of these reality shows lead to two people getting married in terms of "The Bachelor" and "Bachelorette." They may get engaged but I haven't seen any of them get married yet. BLITZER: Laura Berman, always good to have you on the show. Jennifer Berman, as well. Jennifer is about to give birth. Good luck to you.

J. BERMAN: Right here.

BLITZER: Next time we see you, we might see an additional child out there. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

J. BERMAN: Thanks.

L. BERMAN: Take care.

BLITZER: Time's running out for your turn to weigh in on our "Web Question of the Day. Should journalists be allowed to report alongside troops in frontline positions? Log on to cnn.com/wolf. that's where you can vote. We'll have the results immediately when we come back.

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BLITZER: Time now for our "Picture of the Day." Lots of people feel like they spend all days going in circles. These penguins really are. Since November the San Francisco Zoo's flock of 52 penguins have spent all day every day swimming circles around the pool in their habitat.

It started when six new birds arrived from Ohio. Zoo keepers think they may be the driving force behind the strange behavior, although no one, no one is really sure why this is going on. We'll continue to follow this story, bring you details, of course, once they become available.

Here's how you're weighing in on our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, we've been asking you this: should journalists be allowed to report alongside troops in frontline positions? Look at this. Fifty-two percent of you so far say yes, 48 percent of you say no. you can find the exact vote tally, continue to vote by the way, on our Web site. Just go to cnn.com/wolf. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

That's all the time we have today. Please join me again tomorrow 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

Don't forget "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ" weekdays at noon Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.

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