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CNN Live Today

Talk With Former Weapons Inspector Jonathan Tucker

Aired January 17, 2003 - 10:34   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: We have CNN correspondents based at several points of the developing story around Iraq and the weapons inspectors regime. Let's begin with the travel of chief inspector Hans Blix, as well as the message that he is carrying, first to the United Nations in New York, and then off to officials with the European Union in Brussels.
Then right now, leaders of Great Britain and France, they have -- at least the leader of France has had his briefing with Hans Blix. The leader of Great Britain, Tony Blair, is probably smack dab in the middle of his meeting right now.

Our senior U.N. correspondent Richard Roth is traveling right now with the Blix mission, and he checks in now with a live update.

Hello, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon.

It's wet, maybe not too wild out here in the bucolic countryside of Britain. Tony Blair, Britain's prime minister, hosting Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspectors on Iraq, at his weekend home here. Blix is going to be speaking to Blair about a proactive cooperation needed from Baghdad. That's what Blix and Mohammad AlBaradei of the International Atomic Agency have been pressing for. They did that also in discussions in Paris earlier in the day, with French President Chirac.

On the plane from Paris here to Britain, Blix, again, did not really want to specify if what the significance of the empty 12 chemical warheads were. The U.N. in Baghdad said they were not listed in the 12,000-page declaration Iraq filed in December.

The Iraqi government says it was down there on paper. It's a lot of work still to go to compare the files. Blix also told me that the U.N. officials have received a letter from Iraq asking questions about the U-2 flights that the U.N. weapons agency is going to start in cooperation with the U.S. Baghdad has a lot of questions. Blix will have even more questions, and he will pose them later in the week along with Elbaradei in very short discussions with Iraqis.

HARRIS: Well, Richard, do we know what kind of message Tony Blair might be giving to Hans Blix to take with him to Baghdad and how much room or daylight there might be between the positions being held right now by Tony Blair and Hans Blix?

ROTH: Well, we know it may not be as aggressive as the U.S., but it may not be as mild as some of the other European countries. The U.S. wants Hans Blix to get tough with Iraq. They have been notified they have only one last chance, according to the most recent resolution passed of the Security Council.

The U.S. wants Blix to tell the Iraqis to hand over Iraqi scientists for independent, private interviews. Two scientists yesterday refused to be interviewed in private without the presence of minders. That's what faced weapons inspectors yesterday in Baghdad. They also went to another home and took documents from a scientist there.

Blair has sided very much with the United States. However, in his own Labor Party, there's concern and opposition to any type of war effort, without further proof or smoking guns that inspectors might find in Iraq. And many in Britain want to see the U.N. sanction any type of military effort.

HARRIS: Richard Roth, reporting to us from the countryside outside of London.

Thanks, Richard. Travel safely.

We'll check back with you later on.

HARRIS: More now on the showdown with Iraq.

With the threat of war looming, Saddam Hussein says that his country is ready for whatever may come. In a lengthy speech today on this, the 12th anniversary of the start of the Gulf War, the Iraqi leader pledged that his nation would rise up against any aggressor. He also promised that any military invasion of Iraq would be futile. The comments come as officials look for answers in connection with the discovery of those empty chemical warheads and that Iraqi storage facility that we've been talking about this morning. The White House has called the find troubling and serious.

However, the chief U.N. weapons inspector is downplaying the discovery, as you just heard in Richard Roth's report.

Now, earlier in the morning, I talked about this matter with former weapons inspector Jonathan Tucker and asked if there is, indeed, cause for concern about all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN TUCKER, FMR. WEAPONS INSP.: It's a little unclear about the 12th munition. It may have some traces of a film (ph) that could indicate whether it, in the past, contained a chemical agent or not.

More broadly, I think this is a significant development in that it's the first time the inspectors have actually found proscribed weapons, not as dramatic as if the weapons were filled with chemical agents, but still a significant development.

HARRIS: All right, did it revive a term that's been in the press quite a bit of late, and you don't think this is a, quote, unquote, smoking gun here?

TUCKER: No, but perhaps a whiff of cordite, in that it is consistent with a broader pattern of discrepancies in Iraq's declarations. Iraq has been unable to account for large numbers of chemical munitions, that it claims to have destroyed unilaterally, but cannot provide good physical or documentary evidence to back it up. And I think Iraq's claims that all the weapons -- all of the documents were destroyed is just not credible.

Let's talk about some of these Iraqi claims. Number, in that 12,000-page document dump they made back in December, is it clear yet whether or not these munitions were included or not, and is it clear whether or not this is a true subterfuge here, or is it just an accounting oversight?

TUCKER: Well, Iraq did declare in the historical section of the document that it had imported large numbers of this type of warhead. But it does not appear, at least at present, does not appear, to have specifically declared these particular munitions in the accounting section of the declaration. So it could have been an oversight.

HARRIS: Let me ask you about this, because this is something that jumped out at me when I heard one of the Iraqi officials saying this is not a weapon of mass destruction. Well, if it's clear that this is a chemical warhead we're talking about, and not a warhead, 12 warheads, isn't that a weapon of mass destruction?

TUCKER: Well, I think weapon of mass destruction is perhaps a misnomer in talking about chemical weapons. These were weapons designed for battlefield use. They were extensively used during the Iran-Iraq war. But they're not like scud missiles, which could be used against cities. These are unguided, rather crude weapons, strictly for use on the battlefield.

HARRIS: How about the fact they were actually discovered by the U.N. weapons inspectors? President Bush and his administration have been very dismissive of the entire inspection regime. What does this say about the inspections? Does it say that they actually are productive, or that they will find something, or is this proof that it's all a waste of time?

TUCKER: I think Blix can make a compelling case that now that they're up to speed, they have their -- they're fully manned on the ground, they have helicopters, and other surveillance equipment, they are now in a position to make discoveries of this type, and that they should be allowed to continue for a period of months, and just determine, is this the tip of the iceberg, can they make similar discoveries that -- and really determine if Iraq has, in fact, disarmed, which appears unlikely on the basis of other evidence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 17, 2003 - 10:34   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: We have CNN correspondents based at several points of the developing story around Iraq and the weapons inspectors regime. Let's begin with the travel of chief inspector Hans Blix, as well as the message that he is carrying, first to the United Nations in New York, and then off to officials with the European Union in Brussels.
Then right now, leaders of Great Britain and France, they have -- at least the leader of France has had his briefing with Hans Blix. The leader of Great Britain, Tony Blair, is probably smack dab in the middle of his meeting right now.

Our senior U.N. correspondent Richard Roth is traveling right now with the Blix mission, and he checks in now with a live update.

Hello, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon.

It's wet, maybe not too wild out here in the bucolic countryside of Britain. Tony Blair, Britain's prime minister, hosting Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspectors on Iraq, at his weekend home here. Blix is going to be speaking to Blair about a proactive cooperation needed from Baghdad. That's what Blix and Mohammad AlBaradei of the International Atomic Agency have been pressing for. They did that also in discussions in Paris earlier in the day, with French President Chirac.

On the plane from Paris here to Britain, Blix, again, did not really want to specify if what the significance of the empty 12 chemical warheads were. The U.N. in Baghdad said they were not listed in the 12,000-page declaration Iraq filed in December.

The Iraqi government says it was down there on paper. It's a lot of work still to go to compare the files. Blix also told me that the U.N. officials have received a letter from Iraq asking questions about the U-2 flights that the U.N. weapons agency is going to start in cooperation with the U.S. Baghdad has a lot of questions. Blix will have even more questions, and he will pose them later in the week along with Elbaradei in very short discussions with Iraqis.

HARRIS: Well, Richard, do we know what kind of message Tony Blair might be giving to Hans Blix to take with him to Baghdad and how much room or daylight there might be between the positions being held right now by Tony Blair and Hans Blix?

ROTH: Well, we know it may not be as aggressive as the U.S., but it may not be as mild as some of the other European countries. The U.S. wants Hans Blix to get tough with Iraq. They have been notified they have only one last chance, according to the most recent resolution passed of the Security Council.

The U.S. wants Blix to tell the Iraqis to hand over Iraqi scientists for independent, private interviews. Two scientists yesterday refused to be interviewed in private without the presence of minders. That's what faced weapons inspectors yesterday in Baghdad. They also went to another home and took documents from a scientist there.

Blair has sided very much with the United States. However, in his own Labor Party, there's concern and opposition to any type of war effort, without further proof or smoking guns that inspectors might find in Iraq. And many in Britain want to see the U.N. sanction any type of military effort.

HARRIS: Richard Roth, reporting to us from the countryside outside of London.

Thanks, Richard. Travel safely.

We'll check back with you later on.

HARRIS: More now on the showdown with Iraq.

With the threat of war looming, Saddam Hussein says that his country is ready for whatever may come. In a lengthy speech today on this, the 12th anniversary of the start of the Gulf War, the Iraqi leader pledged that his nation would rise up against any aggressor. He also promised that any military invasion of Iraq would be futile. The comments come as officials look for answers in connection with the discovery of those empty chemical warheads and that Iraqi storage facility that we've been talking about this morning. The White House has called the find troubling and serious.

However, the chief U.N. weapons inspector is downplaying the discovery, as you just heard in Richard Roth's report.

Now, earlier in the morning, I talked about this matter with former weapons inspector Jonathan Tucker and asked if there is, indeed, cause for concern about all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN TUCKER, FMR. WEAPONS INSP.: It's a little unclear about the 12th munition. It may have some traces of a film (ph) that could indicate whether it, in the past, contained a chemical agent or not.

More broadly, I think this is a significant development in that it's the first time the inspectors have actually found proscribed weapons, not as dramatic as if the weapons were filled with chemical agents, but still a significant development.

HARRIS: All right, did it revive a term that's been in the press quite a bit of late, and you don't think this is a, quote, unquote, smoking gun here?

TUCKER: No, but perhaps a whiff of cordite, in that it is consistent with a broader pattern of discrepancies in Iraq's declarations. Iraq has been unable to account for large numbers of chemical munitions, that it claims to have destroyed unilaterally, but cannot provide good physical or documentary evidence to back it up. And I think Iraq's claims that all the weapons -- all of the documents were destroyed is just not credible.

Let's talk about some of these Iraqi claims. Number, in that 12,000-page document dump they made back in December, is it clear yet whether or not these munitions were included or not, and is it clear whether or not this is a true subterfuge here, or is it just an accounting oversight?

TUCKER: Well, Iraq did declare in the historical section of the document that it had imported large numbers of this type of warhead. But it does not appear, at least at present, does not appear, to have specifically declared these particular munitions in the accounting section of the declaration. So it could have been an oversight.

HARRIS: Let me ask you about this, because this is something that jumped out at me when I heard one of the Iraqi officials saying this is not a weapon of mass destruction. Well, if it's clear that this is a chemical warhead we're talking about, and not a warhead, 12 warheads, isn't that a weapon of mass destruction?

TUCKER: Well, I think weapon of mass destruction is perhaps a misnomer in talking about chemical weapons. These were weapons designed for battlefield use. They were extensively used during the Iran-Iraq war. But they're not like scud missiles, which could be used against cities. These are unguided, rather crude weapons, strictly for use on the battlefield.

HARRIS: How about the fact they were actually discovered by the U.N. weapons inspectors? President Bush and his administration have been very dismissive of the entire inspection regime. What does this say about the inspections? Does it say that they actually are productive, or that they will find something, or is this proof that it's all a waste of time?

TUCKER: I think Blix can make a compelling case that now that they're up to speed, they have their -- they're fully manned on the ground, they have helicopters, and other surveillance equipment, they are now in a position to make discoveries of this type, and that they should be allowed to continue for a period of months, and just determine, is this the tip of the iceberg, can they make similar discoveries that -- and really determine if Iraq has, in fact, disarmed, which appears unlikely on the basis of other evidence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com