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CNN DIPLOMATIC LICENSE
Interview With Kenneth Roth
Aired January 18, 2003 - 04:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish Americans would dispose themselves to the truth before we talk about going to war with Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: War is bad. Conflicts are bad because they're - the children and women and families are the most vulnerable.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: I really don't want to talk about war nor is the Council talking about war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ROTH, HOST: This weekend the team of Blix and ElBaradei head to Baghdad, upcoming deadlines in the weeks ahead.
Yes, Iraq and the war on terrorism are in the headlines, but it also can serve as a shield for many countries to commit human rights abuses. Is the world even able to focus on human rights and other troubling regional issues with so much attention given to Iraq, North Korea and al Qaeda by governments and the media?
Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.
Don't believe me. Listen to UNICEF's regional director for Western and Central Africa, no oasis of prosperity, Rima Salah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RIMA SALAH, UNICEF'S REGIONAL DIRECTOR, WESTERN AND CENTRAL AFRICA: We feel sometimes that the problem of Iraq deserts the whole, you know, other problems. For example, the conflict in Cote d'Ivoire is very important. Do you know why? Because it does not only have an impact on Cote d'Ivoire itself, but on the sub region - like six countries are also affected by the conflict - like Guinea (UNINTELLIGIBLE) like Liberia, like Ghana, like Burkina Faso. So all these countries are also affected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
R. ROTH: The human rights situation in Africa actually improved in 2002. That opinion found in the annual Human Rights Watch report, more than 550 pages of the global survey of what's wrong and right about human rights in the world. With me now is Kenneth Roth, no relation to the host, and he is with the Human Rights Watch, and he's the hot man there. Ken, what does this report try to say about human rights? We've had you on the program before. Through all of the data gathered, any trend?
KEN ROTH, EXEC. DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: There is a trend and it's a disturbing one. What we found is that not only is the war on terrorism a diversion from other concerns such as human rights, but it's become a new excuse to ignore human rights.
And that's dangerous not only in its own rights, since it leads to human rights violation, obviously, but it's also profoundly counterproductive because to win the war on terrorism, the U.S. government and others need the support of the people in the countries where terrorists reside. They're the ones who have to cooperate with law enforcement efforts. They're the ones who have to dissuade would- be terrorists from taking up arms. But if those people see the United States as supporting their oppressive governments, they're hardly going to be inclined to help.
R. ROTH: So, what are you seeing and what are you charging Washington with being guilty of in human rights?
K. ROTH: Well let me give an example. Pakistan, obviously a government that needs to cooperate in the war against terrorism. Nobody is saying that Pakistan is going to be irrelevant to that fight.
But President Bush, when asked about General Musharraf's disturbing tendency, the fact that he's given himself a five-year new presidential term, the fact that the military is entrenched more and more over civilian institutions in Pakistan.
President Bush was asked what do you think about those trends. He said Musharraf is tight with us in the war on terrorism and that's what matters to me. That sends an awful signal, and it's no surprise that Pakistanis voted much larger numbers than ever before for anti- American political parties in October's Parliamentary elections.
R. ROTH: But it is that thin line because people remember 9/11, especially here in New York City and you talk to many people and they're willing, it seems to, get a little tough to find out who might be ready to attack and cause mass murder.
K. ROTH: Well the point we make is this is not a tradeoff between fighting terrorism and protecting human rights. Obviously to fight terrorism, you need heightened security measures.
But if you're going to be successful, if you're going to change the culture, the values that lead some people to attack innocent civilians, you need to make human rights an instrumental part of the effort. If you are not seen as protecting people around the world, you're rather siding with their oppressors, you're going to end up kind of reinforcing the ends justify the means logic that the terrorists use, because after all, they think that their cause is just, but they attack civilians in the name of that cause. We can't do the same thing in fighting terrorism.
R. ROTH: What happens with the war in Iraq? What will that do to human rights? The U.S. is looking for as many countries to get on board.
K. ROTH: Well we are quite concerned about the fate of Iraqi civilians should war begin, and there are a number of possible dangers to them, ranging from the possibility that the Pentagon would use cluster bombs again in civilian areas that caused about a quarter of the civilian deaths in Yugoslavia.
There's the threat (ph) that Saddam, if we sees himself going down, will take as many people with him as he can using whatever weapons he has at his disposal, and there's the chance that anti- Saddam forces will start summarily executing people the way they did in 1991, but this time it's U.S. allies.
So, these are all very important considerations to take into account should the United States decide to go to war.
R. ROTH: So according to Human Rights Watch, the U.S. calls the tune still. So many countries look to what Washington is doing with a wink and nod and they're willing to torture a suspect.
I mean in some cases you see -- you're still upset about what happened with suspects from the Taliban being brought to Guantanomo Bay.
K. ROTH: Yes, well one of the latest allegations that "The Washington Post" reported is that it's not so much in Guantanomo, people seemed to be treated reasonably well, but in Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan and also in Degra Garcia (ph) British territory in the Indian Ocean.
There are allegations that U.S. security forces are torturing suspects. After that report came out, shockingly the Bush administration has not issued a single senior levels (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They have some low-level military official saying in Bagram it's not the military, but of course nobody alleged it was the military.
R. ROTH: All right, well responding to the views of Human Rights Watch that the U.S. government campaign against terror contributes to abuses, here is White House spokesman Air Fleischer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: The fact of the matter is wherever America goes, we always make it a practice to pursue policies that help advance human rights everywhere around the world. As a result of increased contact with the United States in these cases, there are better prospects for that happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
R. ROTH: Is this what happens when you have such dramatic events such as September 11? People are able to capitalize and do whatever they want and the public doesn't seem to notice that much?
K. ROTH: Well I've got to say Ari Fleischer's got to read the Human Rights Watch report, where we cite case after case, where U.S. engagement has been detrimental to the cause of human rights. I mentioned Pakistan. It could be Indonesia where the U.S. is trying to cozy up to the Indonesia military even though it continues to commit atrocities and refuses to subject itself to the rule of law. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Uzbekistan where President Karimov is torturing and imprisoning some 6,000 highest Muslims. Their only offense is praying to a God of their own choice outside of government control.
I could go on and on. There are many, many cases of this where either the U.S. is complicit in series abuses or there is a copycat phenomenon where governments look at U.S. abuses, the alleged torture in Bagram Airbase, and decide well if the U.S. can do it, why not us?
R. ROTH: What about the U.N.? So many human rights repertoire, so many human rights committees and commissions and Secretary-General Annan speaking out against human rights violations
K. ROTH: Well, the U.N. Human Rights Commission is about to open up with its annual session, and there is a profound problem there because what we found is that increasingly the most stuckish (ph) governments around are flocking to the U.N. Human Rights Commission, not to promote human rights, but to defend their abysmal record, and there's a need to take that problem on.
We have to find minimal criteria so that not just anybody can be a member of the commission, but rather they have demonstrated some minimal respect for human rights, such as like ratifying the basic treaties, allowing or inviting investigators to come in and look at their conduct, and certainly not having been condemned by that same commission in recent history.
R. ROTH: So Libya is going to be the chair of the Human Rights Commission annual session. The United States says it's going to go after this nomination. Of course, it was just a few years ago the U.S. was not reelected to it.
Libya -- we asked the ambassador here in New York to come onto the program, and the ambassador through an intermediary in a way declined. He didn't return our phone calls. What does this say if Libya is the chair?
K. ROTH: I've got to say it's a travesty that the African nations have nominated Libya as a chair. Just this past July, the African nations made a deal with the West. They said West, you invest in Africa, we in turn are going to hold ourselves up to high standards of democracy human rights and economic transparency.
And what did they do? In their first act, they nominate Libya to chair the U.N.'s leading Human Rights Commission. That demonstrates that they're not serious about policing themselves. Libya - and when you think about Moammar Ghadafi, the first thing that comes to mind is hardly profound respect for human rights. R. ROTH: That vote may come Monday. I don't know. Libya was instrumental in the founding of this new African Union. I don't know if it's some sort of payback or...
K. ROTH: Well yes, and Libya is known to finance the African Union, so certainly this looks like payback. But the new partnership for African developments, so-called Mapod (ph), was this deal that African nations made with the West, and they are violating their first promise in the deal, to be serious about policing their own human rights record. Nominating Libya to chair the U.N. Human Rights Commission is not being serious about human rights.
R. ROTH: I mean you read this spot on your 58-page report and, I mean, you can get a little depressed. Where do we see some improvements due to your attention and other groups and other government?
K. ROTH: There actually has been - there have been quite a few bright spots over the last year. We noted, for example, the winding down of wars in Angola, in Sudan and Cereone (ph). We've noted the rise of international justice.
The International Criminal Court Treaty took effect in the last year. Milosevic is in the dock in The Hague. There have been very important elections in Kenya, in Turkey, in each case with new governments coming in, we hope marking a new era. So there are things that we can be optimistic (ph) about, but obviously the dominating issue of it last year was the war on terrorism. And the way the Bush administration has been fighting it is not only detrimental to human rights, but also detrimental to the fight against terrorism.
R. ROTH: All right. Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, thank you very much for coming in to talk to us about the new annual report, the Human Rights Watch world report, interesting reading. It covers everything.
What about Cravech (ph) and Milada (ph) still not in the dock?
K. ROTH: Yes, well unfortunately, you know, Cravech (ph) goes to sleep every night under the noses of NATO troops in Bosnia and they don't arrest him. That is inexplainable.
R. ROTH: Thank you, Ken Roth.
We began the program by noting the intense focus on Iraq, which squeezes out other important international angles. The world's top diplomat, Kofi Annan, apparently agrees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNAN: I'm not sure it's only the Council that is responsible for this emphasis and focus on the Iraq issue. I'm afraid you ladies and gentlemen also have something to do with it because I have given you a whole list of issues that are very high or should be very high on the international agenda. Why is it that we focus on only one?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
R. ROTH: A German businessman went on trial in Germany this week for allegedly exporting material to Iraq via Jordan in violation of U.N. sanctions. Prosecutors say the defendant organized the delivery of drilling equipment that could be used to make artillery gun barrel. Two men charged in the case denied knowing the drilling equipment could be converted to weapons. Prosecutors say they knew what Iraq would do.
Overall, Iraq say international investigators have built up an arsenal in violation of all sorts of international standards. That's going back to the years before and after the Gulf War. CNN is now paying a copy of a portion of the last such United Nations report from 1998 never before made public in its complete form. It details what chemical weapons programs Iraq declare and for the first time which western companies Iraq clam supplied it.
Many companies we contacted say they have been unfairly named. Nevertheless, the report is providing ammunition for some of the thousands of American veterans of the last Persian Gulf War who say they came home sick with a mystery illness.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
R. ROTH (voice-over): The start of the New Year at the New York home of former U.S. soldier Eric Waden and his family. At this time in 1991 on the eve of the Gulf War, Waden was sent to Saudi Arabia bound for Kuwait.
ERIC WADEN, GULF WAR VETERAN: I've never entertained the idea that I would become a victim of a conflict.
R. ROTH: Waden provided air defense artillery for U.S. troops, but he didn't take a hit on the battlefield.
WADEN: All this right here is all my medical files.
R. ROTH: Waden says these files, including U.S. government records, support his claim that he returned from Iraq with Gulf War Syndrome, a debilitating series of ailments, which struck an estimated 100,000 troops.
WADEN: As (UNINTELLIGIBLE) goes on, my body just fails to completely function.
R. ROTH: Waden and other veterans say toxic chemicals spewed into the air following bombing of Iraqi weapon sites may have caused the vets to get sick, so they banded together in a lawsuit, not against Iraq, but against businesses that they say sold Iraq chemicals and supplied it equipment before the Gulf War.
GARY PITTS, PLAINTIFFS ATTORNEY: They were enabling an international outlaw with weapons of mass destruction, and it was foreseeable that people were going to get hurt. R. ROTH: Houston attorney Gary Pitts represents Waden and 3,000 other veterans. Their Gulf War Syndrome lawsuits stalled in court for eight years because Pitts was unable to prove which companies sold Iraq chemicals - chemicals that could have been turned into weapons of mass destruction.
Both the U.S. government and the United Nations weapons inspection agency, UNSCOM, now titled UNMOVIC, declined Pitts request for information.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: UNSCOM had a practice of not revealing the names of companies, of suppliers of equipment to Iraq, because they often had the possibility of getting information from the companies, and the best way of getting these companies to talk to them was not to publish their names.
PITTS: Figuring that this might be the result, that we'd reached dead ends with the U.N. and with our government, came up with the sort of creative idea of approaching Iraq...
R. ROTH: The attorney found his way to approach Iraq, ironically at a U.S. veteran's convention. His connection, this former Marine and former U.N. weapons inspector, who used to be the biggest thorn in the side of the Iraqi leadership.
SCOTT RITTER, FMR. U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I believe the United States has an obligation to care for those who put on the uniform in defense of their country.
R. ROTH: Scott Ritter, who now calls Iraq a de-fanged tiger posing no threat decided to help the veterans when he traveled to Iraq last year and spoke to its Parliament.
RITTER: I brought out a series of compact discs, which contained the totality of the Iraqi declaration.
R. ROTH (on camera): Given to you...
RITTER: By Tariq Aziz.
R. ROTH (voice-over): Ritter says Aziz, Iraq's deputy prime minister, gave him three discs containing Baghdad's full final and complete declaration from 1998 including the secret list of firms, companies which allegedly supplied, knowingly or not, Baghdad's past chemical warfare programs. Ritter gave the list to Pitts who provided it to CNN.
According to U.N. sources, the list matches company and supplier names now in U.N. hands. The sources say the list is mirrored in Iraq's latest 12,000-page declaration delivered to the Security Council in early December.
PITTS: If they are hit in the pocketbook, if they know that the dictator they provide this stuff to is eventually going to turn them over to the public and they're going to be held accountable for what they've done, they are less likely to sell these things to Saddam or somebody like him in the future.
R. ROTH: In all, the Iraqi supplied list contains 56 companies, most from Europe. Germany heads the list with 14 major suppliers, followed by The Netherlands and Switzerland, each with three, then France, Austria and the U.S., each with two. Both American companies listed are no longer in business. No one from the company Al-Haddad could be reached. The other firm, Alcolac, paid a fine in 1989 under U.S. law for one charge of exporting a chemical that could be used to make mustard gas. That shipment (UNINTELLIGIBLE) however was destined for another country, not Iraq, says a spokesman for Alcolac's new owner who tells CNN the veterans' lawsuit has no meat.
One of the largest alleged suppliers to Iraq's chemical program, according to Iraq's list: the German company Karl Kolb. A spokesman for the company tells CNN it has done business with Iraq for 35 years, but denies any connection to its weapons programs.
Preussag, since acquired by the travel conglomerate TUI, supplied chemical precursors for Sarin nerve gas, according to Iraq's declaration, but the German firm tells CNN that claim is untrue. Several German manufacturers listed gave us the same response. They had no connection to Iraq's weapons plants and the lawsuit's accusations are false. The Dutch company, Melchemie, denies it supplied strategic raw materials to Iraq. It admits improperly shipping chemicals to an Iraqi agricultural producer once in 1984. Melchemie paid a fine and bought the containers back, now exporting tomato and cucumber seeds to Iraq.
A Dutch-bases subsidiary of Phillips Petroleum, sued by the Gulf War vets, exported chemicals to Iraq, but nothing illegal, says an attorney for Phillips Petroleum. He says any substance Phillips would have sold to Iraq would have been a useful and beneficial product if used properly. The Indian company, Exomet Plastics, now part of EPC Industrie, said chemicals if sent to Iraq were for pesticide. The firm tells CNN when advised of their possible misuse, it says it stopped further shipments.
The largest chemical supplier in the 1980's according to Iraq was a firm from Singapore. Iraq told the U.N. it supplied more than 4,000 tons of chemical precursors for mustard gas, Sarin and VX. Our efforts to get a response from the firm were unsuccessful. Despite their names being listed by Iraq, the French firm, De Dietrich and the Portuguese owned Tafisa deny ever doing business with Iraq.
R. ROTH (on camera): In fact, half of the firms listed by Iraq are now targeted by the lawsuit as major suppliers are either unreachable or out of business.
(voice-over): Still, critics think some of the companies listed by Iraq had to know they were aiding in the buildup of President Saddam Hussein's arsenal.
RITTER: There are thousands of American veterans who continue to suffer. My loyalty is to them. I don't give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about these companies. If they're innocent, they're innocent and they won't pay a price. If they've done something they need to be ashamed of, then let your shame be public.
R. ROTH: Veteran Eric Waden says any money earned from the naming and shaming in court is not the central issue. Wracked by swollen joints, shortness of breath and headaches, the unemployed Waden says he'd rather have his life back.
WADEN: I just think about I got a call to do. How long I'm going to continue to go through it and how many times I'm going to be able to - my children ask me questions and I can't even answer. How long am I going through that?
R. ROTH: Questions the troops now preparing in the Gulf for another war hope they won't have to face.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC)
R. ROTH: Water, water everywhere, but not enough fit to drink. Hoping to draw attention to the problem, the United Nations has declared 2003 the International Year of Fresh Water.
Here, folk singers Pete Seeger, Bob Reid (ph) and the children's choir from the United Nations International School join the kick-off ceremony at the U.N. with some water songs.
More than one billion people are without access to safe drinking water and more than three million die each year from disease caused by unsafe water. Speaking of trickling in, time now for e-mail. Two weeks ago we interviewed the director of a new film called "Kofi Annan, Center of the Storm".
We also later in the program, again, keep scoring on the U.N. for allowing smoking while the host city of New York widens its crackdown on the evil weed.
So let's see what came in on the cable traffic from around the world.
Take a look at e-mail No. 1: "The personal story of this highly significant, but often under appreciated public figure who often moves with saint-like calm in the midst of chaos is much appreciated." That's Iris G., commenting on Secretary-General Kofi Annan, now in his second term of office there.
Let's take a look at our second e-mail, also on Kofi Annan. "As a black African, I am proud of this fellow African's achievement. However, I am wary about the way the - quote - "superpowers" render him his position toothless." That is from Kawambwa, Zambia from Claudius Fundi, e-mailing us from Africa.
Third e-mail to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. "His job must be so difficult considering the fact that he has to deal with the belligerent tactics of the international community, which is made up of only the United States and the United Kingdom. I guess it must be quite frustrating coping with adults behaving like children." That is Bello Anka from Sheffield, the United Kingdom, commenting still on Secretary-General Annan.
And our final e-mail about Secretary-General Kofi Annan: "I would like to know why Kofi Annan and other respected African leaders such as Nelson Mandela and Thabo Mbeki have said and done so little to help the people of Zimbabwe achieve political freedom. There seems to be a real lack of will by African leaders to address basic issues of good governance and human rights on their own continent." The e-mail from Craig Spong.
And our final e-mail on the smoking issue. "I have smoked for almost 30 years and currently smoke 76 cigarettes per day uncurbed. Just show firmness and kindness together with empathy for me in my bondage." Andrew Stewart from South Africa.
That's our final e-mail. Of course, below you can see our e-mail address where you can send us some comments on today's program. Meanwhile, there is a new draft to an international agreement against smoking. It'll be put to another test next month in negotiating sessions in Geneva. The World Health Organization thinks it will lead to a treaty with muscle. Activists feel it will be watered down.
That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth in New York. Thanks for watching.
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