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American Morning
Muammar Qaddafi Trying to Present Himself as Man of Peace
Aired January 21, 2003 - 08:15 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It has been Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, but in recent years, Muammar Qaddafi seems to have dropped off the radar. Now he is back and trying to present himself as a man of peace.
On Monday, Libya was elected to head the U.N. Human Rights Commission despite opposition from the U.S.
So, then, is a changed man and is his country, as well?
Let's talk about Libya and its leader.
From Park City, Utah, Scott Anderson, a contributor to the "New York Times" magazine. He wrote an extensive piece this past weekend. Also with us here in New York City, Adrian Karatnycky, president of Freedom House.
Gentlemen, good morning to both of you.
Good to have you here.
ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, PRESIDENT, FREEDOM
HOUSE: Good morning.
HEMMER: What gives right now with the U.N.? How did Libya get this?
KARATNYCKY: Well, there is a rotation of chairmanships for various committees at the U.N. It was Africa's turn. In the last year, Libya has been buying favors, currying favors with the African states. They've helped subsidize a thing called the African Union, which is the new sort of global organization that the African...
HEMMER: So then it may not say much to African countries, but it probably says a whole lot to the U.S. and how the U.N. now deals with this? Credibility issues are what?
KARATNYCKY: Of course, there are terrible credibility issues. This is a country which has had over a thousand political prisoners. They torture people. They hold trials in secret under people's courts. There is a pervasive system of control called the Muhabarat (ph), a secret police. It's one of the worst internal offenders of human rights around the world.
HEMMER: So that record is pretty extensive? KARATNYCKY: It's a terrible record and there hasn't been the kind of improvement there has been in the rhetoric and in the diplomacy of Libya.
HEMMER: Before I get to Scott, why is it that 33 nations voted in favor of Libya and all of it was anonymous?
KARATNYCKY: Well, the U.S. called, tried to call for a public vote but you're right, the European Union, for example, abstained. There were a majority of democracies were on Human Rights Commission and yet they voted with Libya, because there's a lot of horse trading at the U.N. and they didn't want to challenge the system. They didn't want to buck the bureaucratic business as usual at the U.N.
And traditionally dictatorships have outmaneuvered democracies at the U.N. because the democracies don't act as a cohesive bloc.
HEMMER: What a bad tradition that is, certainly.
KARATNYCKY: It is a very bad tradition.
HEMMER: Yes.
Adrian, hang on one second about Libya.
I want to get to Scott Anderson right now in Park City, Utah.
You spent recently some time with Muammar Qaddafi. What is it that you perceive in his efforts right now to either present a different face or that he is a changed man, now getting older at the age of 60?
SCOTT ANDERSON, CONTRIBUTOR, "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE: Well, I think a combination of the two. Certainly in the last 10, 12 years he's been very involved in opening up relations throughout Africa, mending his fences in Europe. And I think that from an, on a diplomatic front, his last bastion that he needs to storm is the United States.
I also think that there has been certainly a decrease in foreign adventurism in Libya over the past 10, 12 years, ever since the Lockerbie sanctions went into effect. And I think that there probably is an element that Qaddafi is thinking about his legacy and how he's going to be remembered.
HEMMER: Yes, but clearly the linchpin of this relationship between the U.S. and Libya is Lockerbie and what happened back in 1988. Did he talk about that at all in your discussions?
ANDERSON: Yes, he did, and he talked about how, to him he feels that by handing over the two Libyan agents who were the chief suspects, and they went to trial. One was convicted, one was acquitted. He feels that Lockerbie now is sort of a done deal. There is a matter of restitution to the families of the victims.
But the main stumbling block from the American standpoint is for the Libyan government to make a public acknowledgement of responsibility, and that's something that Qaddafi is very much resisting doing.
HEMMER: Scott, I think it's a difficult thing to get inside the head and the heart of a man, but you truly believe, based on your impressions and discussions, that he is a changed man?
ANDERSON: Well, I think Qaddafi is incredibly wily and incredibly smart and I think he changes with the times, as, according to what is going to work and what gives him trouble. I think there is an element that he's probably changed. He's probably mellowed. But on a larger level, I think he's, he is playing for advantage.
HEMMER: Scott, hang on one second there.
Adrian, quickly, in the time we have left here, what's the reaction at the U.N.? What are the ramifications of an appointment like this?
KARATNYCKY: Well, I think that there has been some discussion in recent months about creating a caucus of the democracies that would help police the U.N. and prevent these kinds of terrible decisions.
HEMMER: Well, that's interesting.
KARATNYCKY: And there, I've had some discussions recently with fairly senior people at the State Department and there is going to be, I think, a push among a number of democracies this coming fall at the U.N. General Assembly to try to reconvene a caucus that was, that they made an attempt to launch under the Clinton administration. Now they're going to try to launch it now.
HEMMER: We'll follow that.
Scott Anderson in Utah, Adrian Karatnycky here in New York, thank you men for your time on this.
KARATNYCKY: Thanks.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 21, 2003 - 08:15 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It has been Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, but in recent years, Muammar Qaddafi seems to have dropped off the radar. Now he is back and trying to present himself as a man of peace.
On Monday, Libya was elected to head the U.N. Human Rights Commission despite opposition from the U.S.
So, then, is a changed man and is his country, as well?
Let's talk about Libya and its leader.
From Park City, Utah, Scott Anderson, a contributor to the "New York Times" magazine. He wrote an extensive piece this past weekend. Also with us here in New York City, Adrian Karatnycky, president of Freedom House.
Gentlemen, good morning to both of you.
Good to have you here.
ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, PRESIDENT, FREEDOM
HOUSE: Good morning.
HEMMER: What gives right now with the U.N.? How did Libya get this?
KARATNYCKY: Well, there is a rotation of chairmanships for various committees at the U.N. It was Africa's turn. In the last year, Libya has been buying favors, currying favors with the African states. They've helped subsidize a thing called the African Union, which is the new sort of global organization that the African...
HEMMER: So then it may not say much to African countries, but it probably says a whole lot to the U.S. and how the U.N. now deals with this? Credibility issues are what?
KARATNYCKY: Of course, there are terrible credibility issues. This is a country which has had over a thousand political prisoners. They torture people. They hold trials in secret under people's courts. There is a pervasive system of control called the Muhabarat (ph), a secret police. It's one of the worst internal offenders of human rights around the world.
HEMMER: So that record is pretty extensive? KARATNYCKY: It's a terrible record and there hasn't been the kind of improvement there has been in the rhetoric and in the diplomacy of Libya.
HEMMER: Before I get to Scott, why is it that 33 nations voted in favor of Libya and all of it was anonymous?
KARATNYCKY: Well, the U.S. called, tried to call for a public vote but you're right, the European Union, for example, abstained. There were a majority of democracies were on Human Rights Commission and yet they voted with Libya, because there's a lot of horse trading at the U.N. and they didn't want to challenge the system. They didn't want to buck the bureaucratic business as usual at the U.N.
And traditionally dictatorships have outmaneuvered democracies at the U.N. because the democracies don't act as a cohesive bloc.
HEMMER: What a bad tradition that is, certainly.
KARATNYCKY: It is a very bad tradition.
HEMMER: Yes.
Adrian, hang on one second about Libya.
I want to get to Scott Anderson right now in Park City, Utah.
You spent recently some time with Muammar Qaddafi. What is it that you perceive in his efforts right now to either present a different face or that he is a changed man, now getting older at the age of 60?
SCOTT ANDERSON, CONTRIBUTOR, "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE: Well, I think a combination of the two. Certainly in the last 10, 12 years he's been very involved in opening up relations throughout Africa, mending his fences in Europe. And I think that from an, on a diplomatic front, his last bastion that he needs to storm is the United States.
I also think that there has been certainly a decrease in foreign adventurism in Libya over the past 10, 12 years, ever since the Lockerbie sanctions went into effect. And I think that there probably is an element that Qaddafi is thinking about his legacy and how he's going to be remembered.
HEMMER: Yes, but clearly the linchpin of this relationship between the U.S. and Libya is Lockerbie and what happened back in 1988. Did he talk about that at all in your discussions?
ANDERSON: Yes, he did, and he talked about how, to him he feels that by handing over the two Libyan agents who were the chief suspects, and they went to trial. One was convicted, one was acquitted. He feels that Lockerbie now is sort of a done deal. There is a matter of restitution to the families of the victims.
But the main stumbling block from the American standpoint is for the Libyan government to make a public acknowledgement of responsibility, and that's something that Qaddafi is very much resisting doing.
HEMMER: Scott, I think it's a difficult thing to get inside the head and the heart of a man, but you truly believe, based on your impressions and discussions, that he is a changed man?
ANDERSON: Well, I think Qaddafi is incredibly wily and incredibly smart and I think he changes with the times, as, according to what is going to work and what gives him trouble. I think there is an element that he's probably changed. He's probably mellowed. But on a larger level, I think he's, he is playing for advantage.
HEMMER: Scott, hang on one second there.
Adrian, quickly, in the time we have left here, what's the reaction at the U.N.? What are the ramifications of an appointment like this?
KARATNYCKY: Well, I think that there has been some discussion in recent months about creating a caucus of the democracies that would help police the U.N. and prevent these kinds of terrible decisions.
HEMMER: Well, that's interesting.
KARATNYCKY: And there, I've had some discussions recently with fairly senior people at the State Department and there is going to be, I think, a push among a number of democracies this coming fall at the U.N. General Assembly to try to reconvene a caucus that was, that they made an attempt to launch under the Clinton administration. Now they're going to try to launch it now.
HEMMER: We'll follow that.
Scott Anderson in Utah, Adrian Karatnycky here in New York, thank you men for your time on this.
KARATNYCKY: Thanks.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
