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American Morning

Special Edition, Part II

Aired February 02, 2003 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN MORNING: Good morning, and welcome. Welcome back to this special Sunday edition of AMERICAN MORNING. I'm Paula Zahn.
HEMMER: And I'm Bill Hemmer. Good to have you with us throughout the morning here. We will be here pretty much for the next five hours this morning. We do anticipate more information, more news to come in at any moment. Several briefings planned from the debris fields; more information we're getting from people scouring backyards and fields across eastern Texas and western Louisiana. NASA is going to talk in several hours too, so we'll have it all for you throughout the morning.

ZAHN: And as we learned from yesterday, the news conference gave us a great deal of information.

HEMMER: Oh, it certainly did.

ZAHN: A great deal of clues as to some of the things the investigators are focusing in on right now. Let's check in with Daryn Kagan in the meantime, who is standing by live at the Kennedy Space Center this morning. Good morning, Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you. I thought you made a pretty good point off the top of the newscast, talking about how it hasn't even been 24 hours since this disaster took place, and yet as we look right here at Kennedy Space Center and also all around the country, people are taking time out to remember the seven astronauts who lost their lives yesterday.

First, I want to show you scenes from not too far from where I'm standing. The astronaut memorial. This is a memorial that already exists. It is a granite wall. And it has the names etched in it of 17 astronauts previously who lost their lives in service to the space program. About 500 people gathered there yesterday and last night to pay their respects to the astronauts.

There are other memorials that are taking place, including not too far from here, at a Coconut Beach -- Coco Beach Church. Later today, they're going to be having some church services. We're actually going to be taking our viewers there live to show them what's taking place there. Another -- and one other note about Ilan Ramon. Of course, the first Israeli astronaut. This touching not just the people of Israel, but Jews all around the world. And that is the disaster took place during the Sabbath. And according to the Jewish faith, you cannot mourn during the Sabbath. And so, there have been a number of memorial services that have been taking place at synagogues all around the world in honor of Ilan Ramon after yesterday's tragedy.

We're going to have more from here in just a bit, including going live to the church in Coco Beach.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: Thanks, Daryn. I guess we have a little bit more now on Colonel Ramon.

HEMMER: Certainly do.

ZAHN: The folks who have followed his career over the years, a real hero in Israel.

HEMMER: Yes. Yes, if you go back to the early 1980s, amazing history this man has. Aby Har-Evan knew Ramon and followed the shuttle mission every day, dating back to the 16th of January. He's the director general of the Israel space agency, who now joins us live from Jerusalem.

And sir, we certainly appreciate your time in talking to us about the reaction from your country. First of all, how was Ilan Ramon viewed across the country of Israel?

ABY HAR-EVAN, ISRAEL SPACE AGENCY: Across the country, he was viewed as a local and international hero. And from the point of view of the yes, with the young generation, he was the local son. Someone that you have to become like him in the future. He was a very modest man, very good friend, has -- was very familiar with the family he loved very much, his family. He was, you know, modest.

He was also very (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because you have -- there's not quite a lot of moments when someone else would become nervous, during the preparation for the launch, during the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), during the different problems preparing the payload, but he remained calm. He helped us, helped the scientists and helped his roommates to become calm, to continue being calm. And he was very optimistic about this mission.

He saw this -- not only just as a scientific mission, but also something, you know, national. Although he was not religious when he spoke about how he sees Israel from space, he looked at it completely different, not just like a scientist but like Jew with -- who has some sentiment to this country, to his history, and to its religion.

HEMMER: Now tell us, he brought a certain item with him in this space that truly represents the history of the Jewish people. Talk to us a little bit about that and describe it?

HAR-EVAN: You know, one of the scientists -- one scientist, Professor Josefio Yaheen (ph), once when Ilan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at home, he saw that he had something in a very small, nice cupboard. He saw he has a small Torah. And when he -- what is this? Just told him that during the Holocaust, he prepared himself to his bar mitzvah using this small Torah. And after it, his rabbi told him look, take this with you because I am sure I will not leave this place being alive, but you will continue and just use this and tell your children and next generation what really happened to you.

When Ilan tells this story, he was very, very impressed. And he said to him, look, I want to take this with me to the space. And of course, it was something that you know, it's not something just -- we're doing something that is connected to our history, to our roots, and to what really happened to us. And we also have to remember that the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mother was also in the Holocaust and he was good enough. And he (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but she told him a lot about the Holocaust.

HEMMER: Aby Har-Evan from Jerusalem, remembering the lives of Ilan Ramon is...

HAR-EVAN: I would like with your permission to send my condolences to the families of the astronauts to NASA and to great American nations.

HEMMER: Well, listen, I'm certain that your words ring very true for those families across the country today. Aby Har-Evan from Jerusalem remembering the life of Ilan Ramon. Calm and cool under pressure was the Israeli astronaut. Thank you, sir, for your time today. Here's Paula now.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bill.

On this Sunday morning, many of you will be heading to church and turning to your faith to try to deal with this tragedy. And that is especially true in the cities where NASA families live, such as Houston, Texas. And that's where we find Reverend David Fannin, who is the senior pastor at Nassau Bay Baptist Church in Houston.

Reverend, thank you very much for being with us this morning.

DAVID FANNIN, REVEREND, NASSAU BAY BAPTIST CHURCH: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: So I know that a number of NASA employees make up your congregation. Can you share with us this morning what you might say in your sermon today?

FANNIN: Well, of course, this is one of those times when faith is tested. And one of the things I would like to do is just kind of remind people that legitimate faith really is forged in the face of very tragic situations, such as this is.

ZAHN: And I know Billy Graham at points of horror in our history has talked about how people often wrestle with their faith. How sorely tested are some of your congregation members faced this morning?

FANNIN: Well, I'm sure that there's going to be a number who will on some occasions be tempted to doubt their beliefs, rather than -- and also believing their doubts, rather than holding true to the faith that they have in God at this time.

ZAHN: Reverend, we talked a lot over the last 20 hours or so about the closeness of the community where you do your work. Help us better understand that bond?

FANNIN: Well, this whole area, which is known as the Clearlake area of Houston, has individuals who work in a lot of different fields. There's a lot of petro chemical folks, but everyone who is here knows individuals who work at Nassau, their family relationships who work at NASA. And so it's very much an integral part of our community. And so it's very much a family loss. It's a tragic loss for the families of the astronauts, but it's a tragic loss for everyone who lives in this community.

ZAHN: I just spoke with the best friend of Rick Husband, who talked about how in one of their last conversations between the two missions, that he was a part of, he talked so much about his faith. And I understand you've had a personal ministry with a number of astronauts along the way? Tell us a little bit more about that?

FANNIN: Well, over the years, Nassau Bay has had a number of astronauts. This church was started back when the Johnson Space Center was just relatively new here. A lot of the Apollo astronauts were members of our church. Jim Irwin was ordained at NASA Day Baptist Church. Charlie Duke, who was one of the astronauts who landed on the moon, was a member of our church. We've had shuttle astronauts Jim Buckley. Currently David Leetsma (ph), who is not currently flying, but has flown through shuttle missions is very active in our church family.

We also have a number of administrators from NASA, who are very active in our church and just individuals who work not only for NASA, but also for contractors and subcontractors.

ZAHN: Do you have any message for children this morning who haven't been able to been -- I guess kept away from the images of what happened yesterday?

FANNIN: Excuse me, I didn't catch all of that question?

ZAHN: Just message for children, as they're trying to wrestle with what happened to this nation yesterday?

FANNIN: It's just to remember that we have a God of love, who meets us in our times of trials and tragedies. And as the Bible says, "his grace is always sufficient to meet us in those times."

ZAHN: Well, Reverend Fannin, we thank you for sharing a little bit of time with us this morning. We know you have a very challenging morning ahead of you. Thanks again for dropping by.

FANNIN: Well, thank you.

ZAHN: And we're going to tell you what else is making headlines today in our latest "News Alert" right after this break. And still ahead, what went wrong yesterday. We're going to ask the former chairman of the House Science Committee to take us through the investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And welcome back to this special Sunday edition of AMERICAN MORNING. We will continue our coverage of Columbia, the shuttle tragedy, in a moment, but first, let's check in with Heidi Collins, who's standing by in Atlanta with our "News Alert."

(NEWSBREAK)

HEMMER: Want to get down to Louisiana and CNN's Mike Brooks. This is one location, the Barksdale Air Force base, where part of the investigation, at least initially, will get underway. Let's check in with Mike now and gather what he is hearing so far on this Sunday morning.

Michael, over to you.

MICHAEL BROOKS, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill. Right now, the -- NASA has established a command post here at the Barksdale Air Force base just in -- just outside of Shreveport, Louisiana, where it's believed all the wreckage from the shuttle Columbia will be brought here to this base. The NASA, along with the U.S. Air Force has established their own command post and will set up a recovery effort here, in cooperation with the Federal Emergency Management Agency. But it will probably be sometime, Bill, before they start bringing debris to the Air Force base -- Bill?

HEMMER: And Mike, it is said that there will be two investigations. One essentially internal, one external, outside of NASA. Does that directly relate to what's happening at Barksdale? Or do you know just yet in terms of the investigative breakdown, who goes to Barksdale, who goes elsewhere?

BROOKS: No, we don't know as of yet. That hasn't been clear, but NASA has established command posts here. And if you look at other accidents such as this, when we look back to TWA 800, which I actually was one of the investigators on that particular crash, they brought the debris to one central location. They buried it out between different hangars. And as you know, Barksdale is a base for B-52 bombers. And I think that's one of the reasons they came here is because of the large size of the hangars that will be able to accommodate their needs here -- Bill.

HEMMER: And Mike, if you look at the massive project ahead of these investigators, and the collectors, essentially, throughout this debris field, there could be tens of thousands of pieces here. Who's collecting it? Who's bringing it to Barksdale? Do you have much on that?

BROOKS: Well, right now, the Federal Emergency Management Agency is the lead agency on that joint effort. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, the EPA, the FBI, are all working right now. As of last night, none of the debris had been collected. It's going to be some time because right down the road in Nacadogchos, Texas, where there was a number of large debris fields, the mayor there last night said that they were just keeping it under watch, under security, and then they would be recovered today, or at least it was starting to be recovered today.

There are a lot of different things that investigators want to do, Bill. And one of those is number one, photograph it. Find out exactly where it is. They'll use global positioning system devices, as well as triangulation. So they can go back and pinpoint exactly where that piece of evidence was. And that will enable investigators to better understand how the Columbia broke apart and exactly what happened -- Bill.

HEMMER: It is a mammoth project ahead. Mike, thanks. Mike Brooks again at the Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana.

800 number, Paula, went out yesterday to anyone who finds debris in their backyard or field near their home -- 800-525-5555, the number to call if indeed you fit into this category.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bill, and while the investigation begins, the families of the astronauts are trying to come to grips with their great loss. For the family of Laurel Clark, the tears come yet again. They've lost a family member in yet another national tragedy. Laurel's aunt and uncle will share their story when we come back, and we're going to hear from her brother in our next half-hour. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: For the next several days, possibly weeks, NASA officials will be working on the grim task of recovering debris from the Space Shuttle Columbia, and then at least three investigations will look into what went wrong. Congressman James Sensenbrenner took part in an investigation into the Challenger disaster. He joins us from Milwaukee. Thank you very much for joining us this morning, sir.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (D), WISCONSIN: Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: In spite of the fact that the nation is working through its collective grief, some very tough political questions are being posed this morning. "TIME" magazine in a cover story says, "the Space Shuttle must be stopped. It is costly, it is outmoded, impractical, and we've learned again deadly." And it goes on to say that while the space shuttle was impressive in its technical terms, in financial terms and safety terms, no project has done more harm to space exploration.

What do you think is the future of the shuttle program?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, I think that America's going to have to move forward. And the answer is single staged orbit technology, which is cheaper, it's safer and it will be allowing us to bring a payload into space whether human or non-human in a much more cost effective and efficient manner.

The shuttle has a billion parts. And any piece of machinery with that number of parts, something can go wrong fairly easily. And once again, tragically, we've learned that it has.

ZAHN: I know you've had long term concerns about the safety of the shuttle program. Has it been your belief for some time that the technology involved here is arcane?

SENSENBRENNER: The technology that was used to construct the shuttle was developed in the late '60s and early '70s based upon what we learned during the Apollo program and sending people to the moon. It seems to me that we shouldn't be going back and replacing an old outmoded obsolescent technology. We have to be forward looking in terms of how we can better explore space, and to do the scientific research that has the potential of revolutionizing our lives even more.

ZAHN: Help us understand, though, how Congress will progress on those issues at a time when budget cuts are very fresh at NASA and some of the cues NASA of cutting budgets, as they've been forced to at the expense of safety.

SENSENBRENNER: Well, I don't think NASA has compromised safety. And we really need to have two investigations. First, what happened yesterday? And second, why did it happen? And it seems to me that NASA is best equipped to determine what happened, but there should be an outside panel, such as the Rogers Commission that President Reagan appointed following the Challenger disaster to look into the questions of why and how. And then Congress should pick it up and figure out what we can do to fix it.

Obviously, we've had a national tragedy. America is not a quitting nation. America is a nation that has learned from its mistakes. And the chart is going to be real difficult in terms of where we go from here. Paula, you're right. We have budget problems. And I think that the first step is for the Bush administration, which has to submit its budget to Congress tomorrow, to figure out how to fix the budget so that we can have a viable civilian space agency.

If NASA falls apart, then the Pentagon is going to pick up the pieces. And I think having a civilian space agency has served our country well in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

ZAHN: So this morning, once again, there is so much tremendous grief about this horror. You're optimistic that this transition can be made, given the current political environment?

SENSENBRENNER: We've done it in the past, and we're going to have to do it again. And whenever there's a national tragedy, it brings America together. The worst thing we can do as a country in memory of the people who lost their lives on the Columbia, is to turn our back on human space exploration. These people were very brave and they accepted the risks. And unfortunately, their time was up yesterday.

Now what we have to do to preserve their memory, as well as to preserve America's leadership in the world, is to find out what went wrong, fix it, and move on. ZAHN: Representative James Sensenbrenner, thank you for taking time out of a very busy day to be with us this morning. Good luck to you, sir.

SENSENBRENNER: Thank you.

HEMMER: We know that six flights were on schedule for 2003, this being the first, the next one scheduled for March 1. We also know in the middle of all these questions that are unanswered right now, that there will be no space shuttle flights. You heard the flight director yesterday, the chief flight director, Milt Heflin, say we will not fly again until we have this understood, but first of many, many questions as to what happened yesterday.

ZAHN: Which has us all very concerned about the fate of the three astronauts who are currently on board the International Space Station.

HEMMER: Yes, which is a really interesting thing, too, because essentially, they fly, still orbit the Earth at about 245 miles above the Earth. They have enough supplies, we're told until June, and there is this unmanned Soyuz capsule leaving Kazakhstan in central Russia today -- or central Asia, rather, today, that will bring more supplies. If indeed there is a chance that these men have to evacuate, two astronauts, one cosmonaut at the International Space Station, they have a way out, but it has never been used to this point, and hopefully it will be have to used at this point either.

ZAHN: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired February 2, 2003 - 07:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN MORNING: Good morning, and welcome. Welcome back to this special Sunday edition of AMERICAN MORNING. I'm Paula Zahn.
HEMMER: And I'm Bill Hemmer. Good to have you with us throughout the morning here. We will be here pretty much for the next five hours this morning. We do anticipate more information, more news to come in at any moment. Several briefings planned from the debris fields; more information we're getting from people scouring backyards and fields across eastern Texas and western Louisiana. NASA is going to talk in several hours too, so we'll have it all for you throughout the morning.

ZAHN: And as we learned from yesterday, the news conference gave us a great deal of information.

HEMMER: Oh, it certainly did.

ZAHN: A great deal of clues as to some of the things the investigators are focusing in on right now. Let's check in with Daryn Kagan in the meantime, who is standing by live at the Kennedy Space Center this morning. Good morning, Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you. I thought you made a pretty good point off the top of the newscast, talking about how it hasn't even been 24 hours since this disaster took place, and yet as we look right here at Kennedy Space Center and also all around the country, people are taking time out to remember the seven astronauts who lost their lives yesterday.

First, I want to show you scenes from not too far from where I'm standing. The astronaut memorial. This is a memorial that already exists. It is a granite wall. And it has the names etched in it of 17 astronauts previously who lost their lives in service to the space program. About 500 people gathered there yesterday and last night to pay their respects to the astronauts.

There are other memorials that are taking place, including not too far from here, at a Coconut Beach -- Coco Beach Church. Later today, they're going to be having some church services. We're actually going to be taking our viewers there live to show them what's taking place there. Another -- and one other note about Ilan Ramon. Of course, the first Israeli astronaut. This touching not just the people of Israel, but Jews all around the world. And that is the disaster took place during the Sabbath. And according to the Jewish faith, you cannot mourn during the Sabbath. And so, there have been a number of memorial services that have been taking place at synagogues all around the world in honor of Ilan Ramon after yesterday's tragedy.

We're going to have more from here in just a bit, including going live to the church in Coco Beach.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: Thanks, Daryn. I guess we have a little bit more now on Colonel Ramon.

HEMMER: Certainly do.

ZAHN: The folks who have followed his career over the years, a real hero in Israel.

HEMMER: Yes. Yes, if you go back to the early 1980s, amazing history this man has. Aby Har-Evan knew Ramon and followed the shuttle mission every day, dating back to the 16th of January. He's the director general of the Israel space agency, who now joins us live from Jerusalem.

And sir, we certainly appreciate your time in talking to us about the reaction from your country. First of all, how was Ilan Ramon viewed across the country of Israel?

ABY HAR-EVAN, ISRAEL SPACE AGENCY: Across the country, he was viewed as a local and international hero. And from the point of view of the yes, with the young generation, he was the local son. Someone that you have to become like him in the future. He was a very modest man, very good friend, has -- was very familiar with the family he loved very much, his family. He was, you know, modest.

He was also very (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because you have -- there's not quite a lot of moments when someone else would become nervous, during the preparation for the launch, during the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), during the different problems preparing the payload, but he remained calm. He helped us, helped the scientists and helped his roommates to become calm, to continue being calm. And he was very optimistic about this mission.

He saw this -- not only just as a scientific mission, but also something, you know, national. Although he was not religious when he spoke about how he sees Israel from space, he looked at it completely different, not just like a scientist but like Jew with -- who has some sentiment to this country, to his history, and to its religion.

HEMMER: Now tell us, he brought a certain item with him in this space that truly represents the history of the Jewish people. Talk to us a little bit about that and describe it?

HAR-EVAN: You know, one of the scientists -- one scientist, Professor Josefio Yaheen (ph), once when Ilan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at home, he saw that he had something in a very small, nice cupboard. He saw he has a small Torah. And when he -- what is this? Just told him that during the Holocaust, he prepared himself to his bar mitzvah using this small Torah. And after it, his rabbi told him look, take this with you because I am sure I will not leave this place being alive, but you will continue and just use this and tell your children and next generation what really happened to you.

When Ilan tells this story, he was very, very impressed. And he said to him, look, I want to take this with me to the space. And of course, it was something that you know, it's not something just -- we're doing something that is connected to our history, to our roots, and to what really happened to us. And we also have to remember that the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mother was also in the Holocaust and he was good enough. And he (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but she told him a lot about the Holocaust.

HEMMER: Aby Har-Evan from Jerusalem, remembering the lives of Ilan Ramon is...

HAR-EVAN: I would like with your permission to send my condolences to the families of the astronauts to NASA and to great American nations.

HEMMER: Well, listen, I'm certain that your words ring very true for those families across the country today. Aby Har-Evan from Jerusalem remembering the life of Ilan Ramon. Calm and cool under pressure was the Israeli astronaut. Thank you, sir, for your time today. Here's Paula now.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bill.

On this Sunday morning, many of you will be heading to church and turning to your faith to try to deal with this tragedy. And that is especially true in the cities where NASA families live, such as Houston, Texas. And that's where we find Reverend David Fannin, who is the senior pastor at Nassau Bay Baptist Church in Houston.

Reverend, thank you very much for being with us this morning.

DAVID FANNIN, REVEREND, NASSAU BAY BAPTIST CHURCH: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: So I know that a number of NASA employees make up your congregation. Can you share with us this morning what you might say in your sermon today?

FANNIN: Well, of course, this is one of those times when faith is tested. And one of the things I would like to do is just kind of remind people that legitimate faith really is forged in the face of very tragic situations, such as this is.

ZAHN: And I know Billy Graham at points of horror in our history has talked about how people often wrestle with their faith. How sorely tested are some of your congregation members faced this morning?

FANNIN: Well, I'm sure that there's going to be a number who will on some occasions be tempted to doubt their beliefs, rather than -- and also believing their doubts, rather than holding true to the faith that they have in God at this time.

ZAHN: Reverend, we talked a lot over the last 20 hours or so about the closeness of the community where you do your work. Help us better understand that bond?

FANNIN: Well, this whole area, which is known as the Clearlake area of Houston, has individuals who work in a lot of different fields. There's a lot of petro chemical folks, but everyone who is here knows individuals who work at Nassau, their family relationships who work at NASA. And so it's very much an integral part of our community. And so it's very much a family loss. It's a tragic loss for the families of the astronauts, but it's a tragic loss for everyone who lives in this community.

ZAHN: I just spoke with the best friend of Rick Husband, who talked about how in one of their last conversations between the two missions, that he was a part of, he talked so much about his faith. And I understand you've had a personal ministry with a number of astronauts along the way? Tell us a little bit more about that?

FANNIN: Well, over the years, Nassau Bay has had a number of astronauts. This church was started back when the Johnson Space Center was just relatively new here. A lot of the Apollo astronauts were members of our church. Jim Irwin was ordained at NASA Day Baptist Church. Charlie Duke, who was one of the astronauts who landed on the moon, was a member of our church. We've had shuttle astronauts Jim Buckley. Currently David Leetsma (ph), who is not currently flying, but has flown through shuttle missions is very active in our church family.

We also have a number of administrators from NASA, who are very active in our church and just individuals who work not only for NASA, but also for contractors and subcontractors.

ZAHN: Do you have any message for children this morning who haven't been able to been -- I guess kept away from the images of what happened yesterday?

FANNIN: Excuse me, I didn't catch all of that question?

ZAHN: Just message for children, as they're trying to wrestle with what happened to this nation yesterday?

FANNIN: It's just to remember that we have a God of love, who meets us in our times of trials and tragedies. And as the Bible says, "his grace is always sufficient to meet us in those times."

ZAHN: Well, Reverend Fannin, we thank you for sharing a little bit of time with us this morning. We know you have a very challenging morning ahead of you. Thanks again for dropping by.

FANNIN: Well, thank you.

ZAHN: And we're going to tell you what else is making headlines today in our latest "News Alert" right after this break. And still ahead, what went wrong yesterday. We're going to ask the former chairman of the House Science Committee to take us through the investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And welcome back to this special Sunday edition of AMERICAN MORNING. We will continue our coverage of Columbia, the shuttle tragedy, in a moment, but first, let's check in with Heidi Collins, who's standing by in Atlanta with our "News Alert."

(NEWSBREAK)

HEMMER: Want to get down to Louisiana and CNN's Mike Brooks. This is one location, the Barksdale Air Force base, where part of the investigation, at least initially, will get underway. Let's check in with Mike now and gather what he is hearing so far on this Sunday morning.

Michael, over to you.

MICHAEL BROOKS, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill. Right now, the -- NASA has established a command post here at the Barksdale Air Force base just in -- just outside of Shreveport, Louisiana, where it's believed all the wreckage from the shuttle Columbia will be brought here to this base. The NASA, along with the U.S. Air Force has established their own command post and will set up a recovery effort here, in cooperation with the Federal Emergency Management Agency. But it will probably be sometime, Bill, before they start bringing debris to the Air Force base -- Bill?

HEMMER: And Mike, it is said that there will be two investigations. One essentially internal, one external, outside of NASA. Does that directly relate to what's happening at Barksdale? Or do you know just yet in terms of the investigative breakdown, who goes to Barksdale, who goes elsewhere?

BROOKS: No, we don't know as of yet. That hasn't been clear, but NASA has established command posts here. And if you look at other accidents such as this, when we look back to TWA 800, which I actually was one of the investigators on that particular crash, they brought the debris to one central location. They buried it out between different hangars. And as you know, Barksdale is a base for B-52 bombers. And I think that's one of the reasons they came here is because of the large size of the hangars that will be able to accommodate their needs here -- Bill.

HEMMER: And Mike, if you look at the massive project ahead of these investigators, and the collectors, essentially, throughout this debris field, there could be tens of thousands of pieces here. Who's collecting it? Who's bringing it to Barksdale? Do you have much on that?

BROOKS: Well, right now, the Federal Emergency Management Agency is the lead agency on that joint effort. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, the EPA, the FBI, are all working right now. As of last night, none of the debris had been collected. It's going to be some time because right down the road in Nacadogchos, Texas, where there was a number of large debris fields, the mayor there last night said that they were just keeping it under watch, under security, and then they would be recovered today, or at least it was starting to be recovered today.

There are a lot of different things that investigators want to do, Bill. And one of those is number one, photograph it. Find out exactly where it is. They'll use global positioning system devices, as well as triangulation. So they can go back and pinpoint exactly where that piece of evidence was. And that will enable investigators to better understand how the Columbia broke apart and exactly what happened -- Bill.

HEMMER: It is a mammoth project ahead. Mike, thanks. Mike Brooks again at the Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana.

800 number, Paula, went out yesterday to anyone who finds debris in their backyard or field near their home -- 800-525-5555, the number to call if indeed you fit into this category.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bill, and while the investigation begins, the families of the astronauts are trying to come to grips with their great loss. For the family of Laurel Clark, the tears come yet again. They've lost a family member in yet another national tragedy. Laurel's aunt and uncle will share their story when we come back, and we're going to hear from her brother in our next half-hour. We'll be right back.

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ZAHN: For the next several days, possibly weeks, NASA officials will be working on the grim task of recovering debris from the Space Shuttle Columbia, and then at least three investigations will look into what went wrong. Congressman James Sensenbrenner took part in an investigation into the Challenger disaster. He joins us from Milwaukee. Thank you very much for joining us this morning, sir.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (D), WISCONSIN: Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: In spite of the fact that the nation is working through its collective grief, some very tough political questions are being posed this morning. "TIME" magazine in a cover story says, "the Space Shuttle must be stopped. It is costly, it is outmoded, impractical, and we've learned again deadly." And it goes on to say that while the space shuttle was impressive in its technical terms, in financial terms and safety terms, no project has done more harm to space exploration.

What do you think is the future of the shuttle program?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, I think that America's going to have to move forward. And the answer is single staged orbit technology, which is cheaper, it's safer and it will be allowing us to bring a payload into space whether human or non-human in a much more cost effective and efficient manner.

The shuttle has a billion parts. And any piece of machinery with that number of parts, something can go wrong fairly easily. And once again, tragically, we've learned that it has.

ZAHN: I know you've had long term concerns about the safety of the shuttle program. Has it been your belief for some time that the technology involved here is arcane?

SENSENBRENNER: The technology that was used to construct the shuttle was developed in the late '60s and early '70s based upon what we learned during the Apollo program and sending people to the moon. It seems to me that we shouldn't be going back and replacing an old outmoded obsolescent technology. We have to be forward looking in terms of how we can better explore space, and to do the scientific research that has the potential of revolutionizing our lives even more.

ZAHN: Help us understand, though, how Congress will progress on those issues at a time when budget cuts are very fresh at NASA and some of the cues NASA of cutting budgets, as they've been forced to at the expense of safety.

SENSENBRENNER: Well, I don't think NASA has compromised safety. And we really need to have two investigations. First, what happened yesterday? And second, why did it happen? And it seems to me that NASA is best equipped to determine what happened, but there should be an outside panel, such as the Rogers Commission that President Reagan appointed following the Challenger disaster to look into the questions of why and how. And then Congress should pick it up and figure out what we can do to fix it.

Obviously, we've had a national tragedy. America is not a quitting nation. America is a nation that has learned from its mistakes. And the chart is going to be real difficult in terms of where we go from here. Paula, you're right. We have budget problems. And I think that the first step is for the Bush administration, which has to submit its budget to Congress tomorrow, to figure out how to fix the budget so that we can have a viable civilian space agency.

If NASA falls apart, then the Pentagon is going to pick up the pieces. And I think having a civilian space agency has served our country well in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

ZAHN: So this morning, once again, there is so much tremendous grief about this horror. You're optimistic that this transition can be made, given the current political environment?

SENSENBRENNER: We've done it in the past, and we're going to have to do it again. And whenever there's a national tragedy, it brings America together. The worst thing we can do as a country in memory of the people who lost their lives on the Columbia, is to turn our back on human space exploration. These people were very brave and they accepted the risks. And unfortunately, their time was up yesterday.

Now what we have to do to preserve their memory, as well as to preserve America's leadership in the world, is to find out what went wrong, fix it, and move on. ZAHN: Representative James Sensenbrenner, thank you for taking time out of a very busy day to be with us this morning. Good luck to you, sir.

SENSENBRENNER: Thank you.

HEMMER: We know that six flights were on schedule for 2003, this being the first, the next one scheduled for March 1. We also know in the middle of all these questions that are unanswered right now, that there will be no space shuttle flights. You heard the flight director yesterday, the chief flight director, Milt Heflin, say we will not fly again until we have this understood, but first of many, many questions as to what happened yesterday.

ZAHN: Which has us all very concerned about the fate of the three astronauts who are currently on board the International Space Station.

HEMMER: Yes, which is a really interesting thing, too, because essentially, they fly, still orbit the Earth at about 245 miles above the Earth. They have enough supplies, we're told until June, and there is this unmanned Soyuz capsule leaving Kazakhstan in central Russia today -- or central Asia, rather, today, that will bring more supplies. If indeed there is a chance that these men have to evacuate, two astronauts, one cosmonaut at the International Space Station, they have a way out, but it has never been used to this point, and hopefully it will be have to used at this point either.

ZAHN: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

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