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CNN Live Today
Discussion of Ongoing Investigation into Columbia Disaster
Aired February 04, 2003 - 10:41 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We want to look at the investigation and the incredible effort that goes on to gather together all of the thousands of pieces of debris that was scattered over eastern Texas and part was Louisiana.
Our Maria Hinojosa is in Hemphill, Texas, very close to the place where they found a significant piece of the shuttle.
Maria, good morning.
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.
Well, really here the feeling in Hemphill, Texas, is that the search for debris has just been ratcheted up. What started out on Saturday with just a couple of dozen volunteers and officials has now been upwards now of 600 people on the ground doing searches.
Now all of this, of course, has to do with the fact that yes, on yesterday, they did find the nose cone, not too far from here, about three miles away, 100 yards in front of someone's house, actually, they did find the nose cone. So all of that has really added to the feeling that there is a lot of work to be done here in the recovery of the debris.
Now they have got about 300 National Guard troops also that have been called up, but the work is also moving into the water, the Toledo Bend reservoir is an 80-mile long lake where we have heard reports that large pieces of debris have also been found, so they have got a team of 25 to 30 members of the Coast Guard and the Department of Public Safety from Texas that are out doing searches in the water, underwater, sometimes as far as 100 feet deep.
Now what will happen with much of this material, including the nose cone? That will be up to the EPA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF TOMMY MADDOX, SABINE. CO., TEXAS: All of this, you know, will be done by the EPA, and NASA and the EPA there will be removing this section of the nose cone, which has been relayed there, that it's approximately four or five foot long. Some of it there is buried down in the dirt and anyway, they will -- at their discretion is when that will be moved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HINOJOSA: Also, Daryn, important recovery work in terms of human remains. The officials here used the word "tremendous" to describe the amount of human remains recovered in Hemphill area. We've also just been told that overnight and early this morning more human remains were found. They have now brought in dogs help with that recovery. But the people who are doing the work on the ground, certainly a feeling of just feeling very positive about the fact they have been able to contribute so much now to the recovery of the debris from this area -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And, Maria, You can appreciate how large that job is. You see how much there is to collect, and as I understand it, less than 1 percent of the debris has actually been collected and taken where it needs to go, either to Barksdale Airs Force Base, or Carswell, the other Air Force base near Ft. Worth that is going to be involved in the investigation.
HINOJOSA: Absolutely, Daryn, and I think there is also something to be said about the emotional toll. We spoke earlier today in an interview with the man who found the nose cone, and he also found on his property a large six-foot piece, a cylindrical piece. He also found a piece of clothing from one of the jump suits from the astronauts, so there's really an emotional toll for the people here, although everybody feels that they're really helping to contribute -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well, good for those people in the Hemphill, Texas area. Maria Hinojosa, thank you so much for that report. We're going to have more on what's taking place here at Kennedy Space Center in a bit, but for now, Leon, back to you in Atlanta.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In the meantime, we turn our attention now to the shuttle disaster investigation. Now, the investigators are combing parts of Texas and Louisiana, looking for clues that could help them piece together, literally piece together, exactly what caused the spacecraft to disintegrate some 200,000 feet above the Earth.
Our next guest was part of the team that investigated the 1986 Challenger tragedy, and he wrote the book "The Truth About Challenger."
Former NASA engineer Randy Avera joins us now to give us some more insight into this investigation.
Welcome to have you back. You put in a long day with us yesterday, and we sure appreciate that. Appreciate the insight. We're going to talk some more next hour as well, but let's talk about this investigation. We saw all the press conferences yesterday, and a number of things came up that are raising lots of questions this morning. What do you make then of what we heard about the analysis that the engineers did once they did see, once they did locate on that tape this puff of white smoke or whatever that did show up once that chunk came off somewhere, whether it was off the external tank or whatever, but whether it hit the wing and all that, and the assessment at the time was, well, we're thinking back about what happened in 1981 when we lost tiles off of this, it wasn't that bad a deal.
Now I know it's hindsight now, but knowing what we know now, what do you think of the assessment?
RANDY AVERA, FMR. NASA ENGINEER: Well, even considering in if this launch of Columbia a couple of weeks ago, they were committed to go to orbit and committed to do a re-entry, but what concerned me yesterday from what the shuttle program manager was saying that here, several days after the crash of Columbia, that he's not sure about the analysis, the physics equations, likes momentum and mass times, velocity things. It's a little late to not know about that.
And what concerns me, after the Challenger accident investigation in 1986, recommendations to the president and NASA to make it where the human element of this, what we think or what we thought, would not be the controlling element, it would be the process in place that would take all in-flight problem report, IPRs they're called, or things seen in the video review, and go through a very controlled process, and not let the human determine whether it's minor or major, let the process do that.
HARRIS: Talk about the human element here. You said something to me off camera that just struck me once again. Looking at this memorial service that's going to be taking place in Houston this afternoon at 1:00 p.m., what -- how does play into the minds of the investigators? I mean, the investigators are also part of the NASA family, many of them, and are they going to be there? And if so, how does that affect their ability to conduct the investigation?
AVERA: Well, in 1986, the shock that we as human beings, we rocket scientists, and engineers and quality inspectors felt, all of the way down to clerks, supply folks who are critical part process, we're all human beings. Not only were we shocked and grieving, but we had to go to work like we never worked so hard before. The investigators that are working on this Columbia crash today are totally heads down, focused, and their delay in their morning process could be months and perhaps even years out. It takes years for these workers to get over these kinds of things, and it's important to support these investigators in any way that we can so they can continue to do a thorough job.
HARRIS: Now part of the job is going to be, as we said, piecing as much of this together as they possibly can. What exactly is that process like? You've been through this with Challenger; they did recover as much of that as they could.
Now that we're going to be seeing -- or we won't be seeing, but these inspectors are going to seeing pieces of this coming back, in, I guess, over the next months perhaps, how does that process work out? And what's the first thing do you when you get a pile of rubble like that?
AVERA: Yes, I detailed this quite a bit in "The Truth About Challenger" book at randolphpublishing.com, and it's a very interesting read-through, because this team is committed, the NASA team is committed to putting a shuttle together to make it as perfectly as humanly possible.
And when you see this wreckage coming down in the sky like in 1986 with Challenger, it's hard to believe that there is anything left of the vehicle. I talk about in "The Truth About Challenger" the day that the first flatbed truck of Challenger debris came with a tarp over it, and it reminded me of going to a funeral home to see a relative who had recently died, and that feeling that people have when they go into view the body for the last time.
HARRIS: That nose cone that was found -- and we're seeing pieces of the debris right now in the video -- but the nose cone that was discovered this morning, could that tell us anything specific here?
AVERA: Well, I saw those images, and what that structural piece is, if you see on this orbiter model, there is a gray nose cap, a very high temperature reinforced carbon.
(CROSSTALK)
AVERA: And this gray nose cap, this insulating nose cap, is attached to a structural frame right here. It's, if I recall, it's the 382 structural frame, and it's aluminum structure. They're also some titanium and incanel (ph) steel pieces in here, and what I saw in the images this morning is that structural frame that that gray nose cap is attached to.
HARRIS: We're going to talk some more about the actual structure coming up next hour. We're going to talk to you. You have some more of those tiles. You had one with you yesterday. You brought another one you this morning, thin ones, and, folks, what we're going to see here is something you probably -- we're going to guarantee you'll something you've never seen before -- we're going to actually put these tiles to the test. We've got some blowtorches back here, and we're going to heat them up and see what happens and show you just how hot these get.
Randy Avera, thank you. And we'll see you again next hour.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Disaster>
Aired February 4, 2003 - 10:41 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We want to look at the investigation and the incredible effort that goes on to gather together all of the thousands of pieces of debris that was scattered over eastern Texas and part was Louisiana.
Our Maria Hinojosa is in Hemphill, Texas, very close to the place where they found a significant piece of the shuttle.
Maria, good morning.
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.
Well, really here the feeling in Hemphill, Texas, is that the search for debris has just been ratcheted up. What started out on Saturday with just a couple of dozen volunteers and officials has now been upwards now of 600 people on the ground doing searches.
Now all of this, of course, has to do with the fact that yes, on yesterday, they did find the nose cone, not too far from here, about three miles away, 100 yards in front of someone's house, actually, they did find the nose cone. So all of that has really added to the feeling that there is a lot of work to be done here in the recovery of the debris.
Now they have got about 300 National Guard troops also that have been called up, but the work is also moving into the water, the Toledo Bend reservoir is an 80-mile long lake where we have heard reports that large pieces of debris have also been found, so they have got a team of 25 to 30 members of the Coast Guard and the Department of Public Safety from Texas that are out doing searches in the water, underwater, sometimes as far as 100 feet deep.
Now what will happen with much of this material, including the nose cone? That will be up to the EPA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF TOMMY MADDOX, SABINE. CO., TEXAS: All of this, you know, will be done by the EPA, and NASA and the EPA there will be removing this section of the nose cone, which has been relayed there, that it's approximately four or five foot long. Some of it there is buried down in the dirt and anyway, they will -- at their discretion is when that will be moved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HINOJOSA: Also, Daryn, important recovery work in terms of human remains. The officials here used the word "tremendous" to describe the amount of human remains recovered in Hemphill area. We've also just been told that overnight and early this morning more human remains were found. They have now brought in dogs help with that recovery. But the people who are doing the work on the ground, certainly a feeling of just feeling very positive about the fact they have been able to contribute so much now to the recovery of the debris from this area -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And, Maria, You can appreciate how large that job is. You see how much there is to collect, and as I understand it, less than 1 percent of the debris has actually been collected and taken where it needs to go, either to Barksdale Airs Force Base, or Carswell, the other Air Force base near Ft. Worth that is going to be involved in the investigation.
HINOJOSA: Absolutely, Daryn, and I think there is also something to be said about the emotional toll. We spoke earlier today in an interview with the man who found the nose cone, and he also found on his property a large six-foot piece, a cylindrical piece. He also found a piece of clothing from one of the jump suits from the astronauts, so there's really an emotional toll for the people here, although everybody feels that they're really helping to contribute -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well, good for those people in the Hemphill, Texas area. Maria Hinojosa, thank you so much for that report. We're going to have more on what's taking place here at Kennedy Space Center in a bit, but for now, Leon, back to you in Atlanta.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In the meantime, we turn our attention now to the shuttle disaster investigation. Now, the investigators are combing parts of Texas and Louisiana, looking for clues that could help them piece together, literally piece together, exactly what caused the spacecraft to disintegrate some 200,000 feet above the Earth.
Our next guest was part of the team that investigated the 1986 Challenger tragedy, and he wrote the book "The Truth About Challenger."
Former NASA engineer Randy Avera joins us now to give us some more insight into this investigation.
Welcome to have you back. You put in a long day with us yesterday, and we sure appreciate that. Appreciate the insight. We're going to talk some more next hour as well, but let's talk about this investigation. We saw all the press conferences yesterday, and a number of things came up that are raising lots of questions this morning. What do you make then of what we heard about the analysis that the engineers did once they did see, once they did locate on that tape this puff of white smoke or whatever that did show up once that chunk came off somewhere, whether it was off the external tank or whatever, but whether it hit the wing and all that, and the assessment at the time was, well, we're thinking back about what happened in 1981 when we lost tiles off of this, it wasn't that bad a deal.
Now I know it's hindsight now, but knowing what we know now, what do you think of the assessment?
RANDY AVERA, FMR. NASA ENGINEER: Well, even considering in if this launch of Columbia a couple of weeks ago, they were committed to go to orbit and committed to do a re-entry, but what concerned me yesterday from what the shuttle program manager was saying that here, several days after the crash of Columbia, that he's not sure about the analysis, the physics equations, likes momentum and mass times, velocity things. It's a little late to not know about that.
And what concerns me, after the Challenger accident investigation in 1986, recommendations to the president and NASA to make it where the human element of this, what we think or what we thought, would not be the controlling element, it would be the process in place that would take all in-flight problem report, IPRs they're called, or things seen in the video review, and go through a very controlled process, and not let the human determine whether it's minor or major, let the process do that.
HARRIS: Talk about the human element here. You said something to me off camera that just struck me once again. Looking at this memorial service that's going to be taking place in Houston this afternoon at 1:00 p.m., what -- how does play into the minds of the investigators? I mean, the investigators are also part of the NASA family, many of them, and are they going to be there? And if so, how does that affect their ability to conduct the investigation?
AVERA: Well, in 1986, the shock that we as human beings, we rocket scientists, and engineers and quality inspectors felt, all of the way down to clerks, supply folks who are critical part process, we're all human beings. Not only were we shocked and grieving, but we had to go to work like we never worked so hard before. The investigators that are working on this Columbia crash today are totally heads down, focused, and their delay in their morning process could be months and perhaps even years out. It takes years for these workers to get over these kinds of things, and it's important to support these investigators in any way that we can so they can continue to do a thorough job.
HARRIS: Now part of the job is going to be, as we said, piecing as much of this together as they possibly can. What exactly is that process like? You've been through this with Challenger; they did recover as much of that as they could.
Now that we're going to be seeing -- or we won't be seeing, but these inspectors are going to seeing pieces of this coming back, in, I guess, over the next months perhaps, how does that process work out? And what's the first thing do you when you get a pile of rubble like that?
AVERA: Yes, I detailed this quite a bit in "The Truth About Challenger" book at randolphpublishing.com, and it's a very interesting read-through, because this team is committed, the NASA team is committed to putting a shuttle together to make it as perfectly as humanly possible.
And when you see this wreckage coming down in the sky like in 1986 with Challenger, it's hard to believe that there is anything left of the vehicle. I talk about in "The Truth About Challenger" the day that the first flatbed truck of Challenger debris came with a tarp over it, and it reminded me of going to a funeral home to see a relative who had recently died, and that feeling that people have when they go into view the body for the last time.
HARRIS: That nose cone that was found -- and we're seeing pieces of the debris right now in the video -- but the nose cone that was discovered this morning, could that tell us anything specific here?
AVERA: Well, I saw those images, and what that structural piece is, if you see on this orbiter model, there is a gray nose cap, a very high temperature reinforced carbon.
(CROSSTALK)
AVERA: And this gray nose cap, this insulating nose cap, is attached to a structural frame right here. It's, if I recall, it's the 382 structural frame, and it's aluminum structure. They're also some titanium and incanel (ph) steel pieces in here, and what I saw in the images this morning is that structural frame that that gray nose cap is attached to.
HARRIS: We're going to talk some more about the actual structure coming up next hour. We're going to talk to you. You have some more of those tiles. You had one with you yesterday. You brought another one you this morning, thin ones, and, folks, what we're going to see here is something you probably -- we're going to guarantee you'll something you've never seen before -- we're going to actually put these tiles to the test. We've got some blowtorches back here, and we're going to heat them up and see what happens and show you just how hot these get.
Randy Avera, thank you. And we'll see you again next hour.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Disaster>
