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CNN Live Today
Early Focus Looking into Damage to Heat-Resistant Tiles
Aired February 04, 2003 - 10:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Crews will be trying today to retrieve the front section of the shuttle's nose cone. That's embedded in the ground there in Hemphill, Texas.
And CNN's correspondent Mike Brooks joins us now. He is standing by at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. That happens to be the place where much of this debris is being taken for examination and possibly reassembly.
Hello, Mike.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon.
They're expecting more debris here at Barksdale Air Force Base this afternoon, but earlier this morning, the eight-person accident Columbia investigation board headed up by retired Navy four-star Admiral Harold Gehman visited two sites in Nacogdoches, Texas. They went there by helicopter, landed there, then got out and boarded some vans and headed out to two sites, each of them about a mile apart. One of the sites they observed some electronic components, looked around, spoke with investigators there, and then they also visited another site where they observed a moment of silence for the shuttle crew.
Admiral Gehman said that they wanted to get out of the office and take a look at the debris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAROLD GEHMAN JR., COLUMBIA INVESTIGATOR: We felt that one of the first things that we had to do was to get out and look at some of the debris for a number of reasons, one of which is looking out at the debris and being out here on site makes this accident more personal to us. It brings it home more real to us, and it prevents it from becoming an abstract event.
I know that we're not going to come out here this morning and solve this mystery here this morning, but we felt it imperative we get out here and get an impression of what the debris feels like, and looks like and what some of the debris looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Admiral Gehman and the eight-man board, made up of representatives of the United States Air Force, the U.S. Navy, Department of Transportation and one senior manager of the Federal Aviation Administration -- of NASA, along with the Federal Aviation Administration toured the sites for quite some time, and as Admiral Gehman said they wanted to get out to get a personal feel, Leon, and I think that's very important for the board at this time -- Leon.
HARRIS: All right good deal. Thank you very much, Mike. Mike Brooks at Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana.
It's been a long day there. We'll get back to you later on, OK, Mike.
Now NASA's early focus in the shuttle catastrophe investigation is to look into damage to the heat-resistant tiles that line the belly of the orbiter.
Now the tiles are made mostly of, believe it or not, common sand, and they feel like chalk if you get up there close and rub them a little bit. Now that may be the case, and they may feel like chalk, but these are guys are some tough customers with heat, but they do get to be a bit fragile when it comes to nicks and bumps.
And Randy Avera, who was with us yesterday as our CNN shuttle analyst, and he's a former NASA engineer who worked on the Challenger investigation. And he is here with a little bit of show and tell with these tiles. And this is the very tile from Columbia that you had with you yesterday, right?
RANDY AVERA, FMR. NASA ENGINEER: This was from the first flight of Columbia in 1981, flew about 38 orbits, and this is one of the black tiles that we've been seeing and hearing about, and what I'm going to do is put a typical burner, like a plumber would use, to sweat copper pipe with.
HARRIS: Which burns at what temperature, because we've been talking about these tiles withstanding temperatures up to 3,000 degrees on re-entry, right?
AVERA: Well, I've heard 3, 000.
HARRIS: I'm sorry, 3,000 degrees, right.
AVERA: These black tiles that I'm familiar with, 2,800 is about the limit as far as I'm familiar with, and the gray reinforced carbon carbon on the leading edge of the wing and the nose cap is the higher temperature.
HARRIS: But wait a second, this burner you have got in your hand burns a bit hotter than that, right?
AVERA: 3,250 degrees, but it's the duration of the application of the heat that is also very important.
HARRIS: Let's see it here.
AVERA: So on the side of the tile which is normally bonded or glued to the aluminum structure of the orbiter, we're going to apply the heat, 3,250 degrees of heat, and you can see that the red/orange glow that you see, this is the heat that the burner is applying to the aluminum sillocate (ph) material of the tile, and the heat is being reflected and being rejected back, and that's why you see the orange glow.
HARRIS: And I've got to tell you something folks, I'm looking at this, and it looks like the flame is only about an inch away from your thumb, Randy?
AVERA: That's correct.
HARRIS: Is it okay if I touch this?
AVERA: I wouldn't touch the orange glow.
HARRIS: OK.
AVERA: Buts you take the heat away, notice how quickly the heat disappears.
HARRIS: Totally disappears.
AVERA: It has been totally rejected. Let me see how hot that it is.
HARRIS: It's not hot.
AVERA: It's like the outside of a coffee cup with fresh poured hot coffee in it, and it will turn to in just a few seconds to where you could touch it with your bare skin.
HARRIS: And absolutely nothing on the backside here, which would be the underside.
AVERA: Right, and this is the glass coating, the black, glass ceramic coating.
HARRIS: And the side that would actually be enduring the re- entry here.
AVERA: That is correct, not only re-entry, but also boost orbit, a lot of friction heating as well.
HARRIS: OK.
AVERA: But during re-entry, this is the kind of heat application, again, 3,250 degrees here on a black tile, and you can see that that more crimson red color, it's rejecting that heat instantaneously.
HARRIS: I'll put my hand behind here, and I can tell you, folks, you can feel a little heat up coming up, but I think that's coming up from underneath. Yes, I can feel ...
AVERA: That's what we did earlier.
HARRIS: Ah, that's it. AVERA: But you're allowed 350 degrees Fahrenheit on the aluminum skin. That's a normal design with the tiles attached. You're allowed 350 Fahrenheit on the aluminum skin.
HARRIS: Let's look at this thinner one, because that's one of the ones. This is the tile that's on the bottom of it. As you can see here, this is like, what, looks like...
AVERA: About three inches thick.
HARRIS: About a brick and a half it looks like.
And this piece, which to me looks like drywall, you know, this is the piece that actually would be elsewhere on the shuttle. Where would that be?
AVERA: Artists that are familiar with foam board, we're talking about thin and lightweight as foam board, not even as dense and heavy as drywall.
HARRIS: I have to say it looks like drywall, but it's a lot lighter.
AVERA: Right, and this would be typical on the top side, on the side wall of the fuselage, and those areas and obviously much thinner, so just like insulation in a house it's the...
HARRIS: So how much heat does this take?
AVERA: This, you'll see, cannot take quite the heat. My fingers in just a few seconds are going to feel more transmission of this heat, and it won't take long where we can't really hold onto it.
HARRIS: I can feel it coming through on the backside on this one. OK, but it doesn't feel nearly as hot as you would imagine, considering this is 7,500 degrees.
AVERA: Correct. Even though the science and manufacturing of this are the same, it's all a matter of how much temperature do you have to block, and how thick should the tile be?
HARRIS: Well, let me ask you this, because what happens with the shuttle when it's in orbit, is that it goes from a place where it's in the sun, after it gets through launch and the heat with the friction, and goes into a sunlight and then goes into these dark periods on the dark side of the Earth, where the temperatures there go well below zero, and we're looking at what, maybe 180 degrees below zero.
AVERA: Right, and Perhaps and even as cold as minus 200, so you go from a temperature fluctuation of minus 200 to temperatures that approach 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit during re-entry, and it's important to know that when the orbiter banks to the right and left, those increases in temperatures spike. The toughest part of the orbiter during re-entry are what are called lateral translations as far as your thermal is concerned. HARRIS: Man, you are making me nervous holding this thing. You've been holding it the entire time with this blowtorch. Your hands not hurting?
AVERA: Not at all, and the only thing I feel on the knuckles of my thumb is the radiant heat reflecting out just like if you went to the beach and got a sunburn.
HARRIS: Not a thing, folks, not a thing. And the amazing thing, folks this is 1969 technology. This is not even the latest thing out, and there are more things coming down the pipe for NASA.
Randy, thank you very much for bringing this in. Glad we got to play with your toys here. Ow. A little warm there. A little warm on this side, but not bad. I wouldn't put my tongue on it, though, but it's relatively cool.
HARRIS: Neither a tile nor a cold flagpole.
AVERA: There you go. Thanks, Randy, Randy Avera. We'll talk with you some more about some more of this fascinating technology.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 4, 2003 - 10:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Crews will be trying today to retrieve the front section of the shuttle's nose cone. That's embedded in the ground there in Hemphill, Texas.
And CNN's correspondent Mike Brooks joins us now. He is standing by at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. That happens to be the place where much of this debris is being taken for examination and possibly reassembly.
Hello, Mike.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon.
They're expecting more debris here at Barksdale Air Force Base this afternoon, but earlier this morning, the eight-person accident Columbia investigation board headed up by retired Navy four-star Admiral Harold Gehman visited two sites in Nacogdoches, Texas. They went there by helicopter, landed there, then got out and boarded some vans and headed out to two sites, each of them about a mile apart. One of the sites they observed some electronic components, looked around, spoke with investigators there, and then they also visited another site where they observed a moment of silence for the shuttle crew.
Admiral Gehman said that they wanted to get out of the office and take a look at the debris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAROLD GEHMAN JR., COLUMBIA INVESTIGATOR: We felt that one of the first things that we had to do was to get out and look at some of the debris for a number of reasons, one of which is looking out at the debris and being out here on site makes this accident more personal to us. It brings it home more real to us, and it prevents it from becoming an abstract event.
I know that we're not going to come out here this morning and solve this mystery here this morning, but we felt it imperative we get out here and get an impression of what the debris feels like, and looks like and what some of the debris looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKS: Admiral Gehman and the eight-man board, made up of representatives of the United States Air Force, the U.S. Navy, Department of Transportation and one senior manager of the Federal Aviation Administration -- of NASA, along with the Federal Aviation Administration toured the sites for quite some time, and as Admiral Gehman said they wanted to get out to get a personal feel, Leon, and I think that's very important for the board at this time -- Leon.
HARRIS: All right good deal. Thank you very much, Mike. Mike Brooks at Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana.
It's been a long day there. We'll get back to you later on, OK, Mike.
Now NASA's early focus in the shuttle catastrophe investigation is to look into damage to the heat-resistant tiles that line the belly of the orbiter.
Now the tiles are made mostly of, believe it or not, common sand, and they feel like chalk if you get up there close and rub them a little bit. Now that may be the case, and they may feel like chalk, but these are guys are some tough customers with heat, but they do get to be a bit fragile when it comes to nicks and bumps.
And Randy Avera, who was with us yesterday as our CNN shuttle analyst, and he's a former NASA engineer who worked on the Challenger investigation. And he is here with a little bit of show and tell with these tiles. And this is the very tile from Columbia that you had with you yesterday, right?
RANDY AVERA, FMR. NASA ENGINEER: This was from the first flight of Columbia in 1981, flew about 38 orbits, and this is one of the black tiles that we've been seeing and hearing about, and what I'm going to do is put a typical burner, like a plumber would use, to sweat copper pipe with.
HARRIS: Which burns at what temperature, because we've been talking about these tiles withstanding temperatures up to 3,000 degrees on re-entry, right?
AVERA: Well, I've heard 3, 000.
HARRIS: I'm sorry, 3,000 degrees, right.
AVERA: These black tiles that I'm familiar with, 2,800 is about the limit as far as I'm familiar with, and the gray reinforced carbon carbon on the leading edge of the wing and the nose cap is the higher temperature.
HARRIS: But wait a second, this burner you have got in your hand burns a bit hotter than that, right?
AVERA: 3,250 degrees, but it's the duration of the application of the heat that is also very important.
HARRIS: Let's see it here.
AVERA: So on the side of the tile which is normally bonded or glued to the aluminum structure of the orbiter, we're going to apply the heat, 3,250 degrees of heat, and you can see that the red/orange glow that you see, this is the heat that the burner is applying to the aluminum sillocate (ph) material of the tile, and the heat is being reflected and being rejected back, and that's why you see the orange glow.
HARRIS: And I've got to tell you something folks, I'm looking at this, and it looks like the flame is only about an inch away from your thumb, Randy?
AVERA: That's correct.
HARRIS: Is it okay if I touch this?
AVERA: I wouldn't touch the orange glow.
HARRIS: OK.
AVERA: Buts you take the heat away, notice how quickly the heat disappears.
HARRIS: Totally disappears.
AVERA: It has been totally rejected. Let me see how hot that it is.
HARRIS: It's not hot.
AVERA: It's like the outside of a coffee cup with fresh poured hot coffee in it, and it will turn to in just a few seconds to where you could touch it with your bare skin.
HARRIS: And absolutely nothing on the backside here, which would be the underside.
AVERA: Right, and this is the glass coating, the black, glass ceramic coating.
HARRIS: And the side that would actually be enduring the re- entry here.
AVERA: That is correct, not only re-entry, but also boost orbit, a lot of friction heating as well.
HARRIS: OK.
AVERA: But during re-entry, this is the kind of heat application, again, 3,250 degrees here on a black tile, and you can see that that more crimson red color, it's rejecting that heat instantaneously.
HARRIS: I'll put my hand behind here, and I can tell you, folks, you can feel a little heat up coming up, but I think that's coming up from underneath. Yes, I can feel ...
AVERA: That's what we did earlier.
HARRIS: Ah, that's it. AVERA: But you're allowed 350 degrees Fahrenheit on the aluminum skin. That's a normal design with the tiles attached. You're allowed 350 Fahrenheit on the aluminum skin.
HARRIS: Let's look at this thinner one, because that's one of the ones. This is the tile that's on the bottom of it. As you can see here, this is like, what, looks like...
AVERA: About three inches thick.
HARRIS: About a brick and a half it looks like.
And this piece, which to me looks like drywall, you know, this is the piece that actually would be elsewhere on the shuttle. Where would that be?
AVERA: Artists that are familiar with foam board, we're talking about thin and lightweight as foam board, not even as dense and heavy as drywall.
HARRIS: I have to say it looks like drywall, but it's a lot lighter.
AVERA: Right, and this would be typical on the top side, on the side wall of the fuselage, and those areas and obviously much thinner, so just like insulation in a house it's the...
HARRIS: So how much heat does this take?
AVERA: This, you'll see, cannot take quite the heat. My fingers in just a few seconds are going to feel more transmission of this heat, and it won't take long where we can't really hold onto it.
HARRIS: I can feel it coming through on the backside on this one. OK, but it doesn't feel nearly as hot as you would imagine, considering this is 7,500 degrees.
AVERA: Correct. Even though the science and manufacturing of this are the same, it's all a matter of how much temperature do you have to block, and how thick should the tile be?
HARRIS: Well, let me ask you this, because what happens with the shuttle when it's in orbit, is that it goes from a place where it's in the sun, after it gets through launch and the heat with the friction, and goes into a sunlight and then goes into these dark periods on the dark side of the Earth, where the temperatures there go well below zero, and we're looking at what, maybe 180 degrees below zero.
AVERA: Right, and Perhaps and even as cold as minus 200, so you go from a temperature fluctuation of minus 200 to temperatures that approach 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit during re-entry, and it's important to know that when the orbiter banks to the right and left, those increases in temperatures spike. The toughest part of the orbiter during re-entry are what are called lateral translations as far as your thermal is concerned. HARRIS: Man, you are making me nervous holding this thing. You've been holding it the entire time with this blowtorch. Your hands not hurting?
AVERA: Not at all, and the only thing I feel on the knuckles of my thumb is the radiant heat reflecting out just like if you went to the beach and got a sunburn.
HARRIS: Not a thing, folks, not a thing. And the amazing thing, folks this is 1969 technology. This is not even the latest thing out, and there are more things coming down the pipe for NASA.
Randy, thank you very much for bringing this in. Glad we got to play with your toys here. Ow. A little warm there. A little warm on this side, but not bad. I wouldn't put my tongue on it, though, but it's relatively cool.
HARRIS: Neither a tile nor a cold flagpole.
AVERA: There you go. Thanks, Randy, Randy Avera. We'll talk with you some more about some more of this fascinating technology.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
