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CNN Showdown: Iraq
Saddam Claims No Link to al Qaeda
Aired February 04, 2003 - 14:51 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: U.N. weapons inspectors say they found another empty chemical warhead in Iraq, this one at an ammunition dump north of Baghdad.
Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, is standing by live in the Iraqi capital with this. First of all, tell us, Nic, what precisely have they found?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've found another chemical warhead from exactly the same type of 122 millimeter missile as the warheads they discovered about two and a half weeks ago at an ammunition site, al QaQaa just south of Baghdad.
Now, this discovery today at al Kadji (ph), north of Baghdad, again the warhead discovered in an ammunition dump. Now, if you remember two weeks ago when Hans Blix, Mohamed ElBaradei came to Baghdad, Iraqi officials said that they would initiate their own investigation to discover if Iraq had any more of these type of warheads. Very quickly, they came up with four more. Those four -- this was two weeks ago -- were discovered at al Kadji (ph) the same place the U.N. weapons inspectors appear today to have unilaterally discovered this other chemical warhead -- Wolf.
BLITZER: So the bottom line is this is one more of several that they've already discovered, or that they've found, but presumably, if you listen to the Bush administration, there are still thousands and thousands of others that have not been located. Is that basically what we're getting right now?
ROBERTSON: Exactly. The U.N. discovered a dozen two and a half weeks ago. The Iraqis discovered four more a few days later. That makes 16. This one, the 17th. According to U.S. officials, as you say, many, many more thousands -- 29,983 the number still outstanding would be at this time, Wolf.
BLITZER: And as far as the banned weapons, the weapons, the biological, the chemical, the nuclear capabilities, the longer-range ballistic missiles, so far the only things that they've actually found -- these inspectors -- are these dozen plus chemical warheads, which are empty. Is that fair to say?
ROBERTSON: That is fair to say. Nothing beyond that. Yesterday discovering a modified Lunar missile. We've had no details from the U.N. on that. Iraqis say that had nothing to do with weapons programs -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. We have some other breaking news coming out of Baghdad. Saddam Hussein, in his own words in what's believed to be the Iraqi leader's first videotaped interview in several years. He answers questions from a British anti-war activist, and a former member of the British Parliament, Anthony Benn, even though -- or more likely because he is not a journalist, Benn was granted one-on-one access to the security-obsessed Saddam Hussein this past Sunday. In excerpts just obtained by CNN, the Iraqi president flatly denies one of the prime allegations being leveled by the U.S. and Britain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): If we had a relationship with al Qaeda, and if we believed in this relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it. Through you, I say to whoever wants to listen or know, the answer is no. We do not have any relationship with al Qaeda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's bring back Nic Robertson in Baghdad. Nic, this notion of an al Qaeda relationship with Saddam Hussein, supposedly the secretary of state of the United States, Colin Powell, tomorrow will be making additional information available on this front, but Saddam Hussein was pretty insistent he had no relationship with al Qaeda.
ROBERTSON: Since President Bush announced little -- almost a week ago that Colin Powell would make this address, Iraqi officials have been saying that whatever Colin Powell says is lies. As they've heard more details -- as they have heard more details, they've said, whatever satellite pictures may be used could be fabricated. Whatever audiotapes could be used could be manipulated. They say they have no faith in it whatsoever. Indeed they say, if this evidence is true, it should go to the weapons inspectors, not on the political level to the Security Council. They say they're going to challenge it. They say they're going to ask the U.N. weapons inspectors to verify whatever Colin Powell says -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Have the Iraqi officials specifically been asked, Nic, about this one al Qaeda operative, this guy named Al Zarqawi, who supposedly received medical treatment in Baghdad?
ROBERTSON: They're certainty aware of the allegations that surround his connection to Iraq, his connection to the possible assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan late last year, John Donnelly (sic). They say at this time nothing. We have heard nothing from Iraqi officials on this precise issue. They have denied many other allegations laid out before them -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Stand by, Nic. I want to play another excerpt from Saddam Hussein's interview. In this particular excerpt, Saddam Hussein alleges Iraq's destruction is part of a Bush administration plan to control the world's oil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): Of course oil is an important player in this region. We are part of the region, and consequently a part of the world. In this respect, we buy and sell. We're also active on the cultural, scientific, and human levels. No one can imagine any country, even the United States of America, with all its powers and resources, being able to alienate itself from the rest of the world or being totally independent of the rest of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Nic, the whole notion of oil, I'm sure it's something the other Iraqi officials have said -- I know that Tariq Aziz and others have said repeatedly this whole thing is only oil. The United States wants to control Iraq's oil, although this, I believe, may be the first time Saddam Hussein has made this suggestion. Give us a little perspective on the notion of the Iraqi allegation that it's all - it's all about oil.
ROBERTSON: Well, Wolf, Iraqi officials have been looking to other countries in the region to give them support at this time. In particular, they look to Syria because of Syria's influence on the U.N. Security Council. But they've also looked to the other oil rich Gulf states to give them some sort of support. The idea that the United States is after oil, they've gone beyond that. They've said that after Iraq, the United States will then go after consuming and gathering and taking control of oil in other countries.
It appears to be a strategy, a diplomatic strategy aimed at winning more regional support, and trying to alienate the United States from its other allies around the world -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Nic. Stand by. I want to play one additional excerpt from this interview with Saddam Hussein declaring, in this excerpt, a kinship with the people of Britain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): I want to tell the...
(AUDIO GAP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): ... as well as the U.S. government. There was no negative comments towards our government. We want to tell the people of Britain that Iraqis are brave people. They believe in human rights. They want to live in peace in this world, and they want their rights and dignity to be preserved.
I also urge you to tell the people of Britain that if Iraqis are attacked or insulted, they will fight bravely and courageously just like the Brits did during World War II. Each one fights their own way. We do not want war. But if attacked, Iraqis will defend their dignity, their sovereignty, and their security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: It's a fascinating example of Saddam Hussein's appealing directly over the head of Tony Blair, if you will, the British prime minister, trying to make an impact with the British public. It's a strategy those of us who have covered this story for many years have seen often in the past, isn't it -- Nic.
ROBERTSON: Absolutely. Indeed, just this week the newspapers were saying that Tony Blair had humiliated his country, again trying to make that appeal directly to the people of Great Britain. It is something we've heard a lot of here, not only from President Saddam Hussein. From other officials as well. It's a divide and conquer attitude, if you will. If they can make some division, even within a country between its leaders and its people, then that is a hope that that peace movement, something Tony Benn talked a lot about when he was here, that that can help change the course of the government of that country, and of course over the collective governments of the U.N. Security Council -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Tony Benn is the British socialist politician, a former member of the British parliament, in Baghdad -- was in Baghdad on Sunday, conducted this interview. Now, there have been plenty of other -- of so-called peace activists, Nic, who have gone to Iraq over these past several months. One or two of them have actually even met with Saddam Hussein, but this is the first time we have actually seen a videotaped interview, which presumably could be pretty significant, don't you think?
ROBERTSON: Absolutely. That was a point that Tony Benn appealed to the Iraqis to come here. He wrote a letter to Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister in September saying, Look, it is a good idea, no one has heard directly from your president. We hear these speeches on Iraqi television, but they are in a language that appeals to the Iraqi people. The international community doesn't understand what you are saying. Put it directly in an interview. That is what Tony Benn said.
Eventually Iraqis decided that it was time to bring him back two weeks ago, invited him in. That appears to be what's happened for the first time in what appears to be very clear language, not like the domestic broadcasts here, putting forward his points, possibly very valuable at a time when points are heard from other leaders -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, ANCHOR: Very confident in his tone, very -- seemingly moderate, seemingly reasonable, at least in those three excerpts we just aired here on CNN.
Nic, stand by. I want to bring in Terence Taylor, a former U.N. weapons inspector.
Mr. Taylor, thanks for joining us. You were just hearing these excerpts, Saddam Hussein flatly denying any weapons of mass destruction exist in Iraq, also denying any relationship with the al Qaeda terror network.
As you were listening to these excerpts, what was going through your mind?
TERENCE TAYLOR, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Well, I'm afraid it's the same thing all over again. Clearly they're not going to come up with the answers to the questions that Dr. Hans Blix, the head of the U.N. inspection teams, has demanded of the Iraqis. So to hear that kind of message, flat denial, is very discouraging and in the sense that it actually makes war more likely.
BLITZER: I can't help but notice the timing, the interview airing just the day before the secretary of state, Colin Powell, scheduled to make the U.S. case in a lengthy presentation before the U.N. Security Council. I assume, Mr. Taylor, you agree with me that this is no coincidence, why Saddam Hussein went public on television right now.
TAYLOR: Absolutely. No coincidence whatsoever. He certainly wanted to get in ahead of the U.S. Secretary of State's presentation tomorrow to the Security Council, where a substantial amount of evidence is going to be laid out before the international community, adding to that, that already exists.
So -- but nevertheless, this complete and flat denial is very disturbing.
BLITZER: You understand the British public, and he was addressing the British public as you heard in that third excerpt we just aired here on CNN.
Is it likely that his message will resonate with elements of the British public at large?
TAYLOR: Well, not the British public at large, although it's true that a large section of the British public is uneasy about going to war over this issue. So the public is divided.
So I suppose the regime hopes to divide opinion and exploit the country, in which a vigorous debate takes place on these issues, as it does indeed in the United States.
BLITZER: I noticed in the article that Secretary of State Powell wrote yesterday in the "Wall Street Journal," which I'm sure you read, Mr. Taylor, among other things he writes this: "While there will be no smoking gun, we will provide evidence concerning the weapons programs that Iraq is working so hard to hide."
No smoking gun makes it sound like he doesn't have the goods.
TAYLOR: Well, I don't think it's quite like that. I think this phrase that's crept into the language, or hasn't crept in, it's been blasted into the language, a smoking gun, is really a political statement, rather than a technical one.
I think what I would interpret Colin Powell meaning by saying "no smoking gun" is there and then he's not going to decide -- he's not going to say the U.S. is going to go ahead with military action now. It's not a thing that will change the policy there and then.
And so there will be plenty of technical evidence, of course, that Iraq is in breach of its obligations under the U.N. Security Council resolutions, deliberately saying that in the plural. BLITZER: Mr. Taylor, before I let you go, one final question. They found another empty chemical warhead. In the scheme of things, how big a deal is that, as far as the weapons inspection process is concerned?
TAYLOR: Well, I think it's very interesting. One -- I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that because it's exactly what happened in the 1990s, and little bits of evidence were accumulated over time.
And I -- when I heard that, I recalled the phrase of Dr. Hans Blix at the U.N. Security Council on the 27th of January, when he commented on the earlier finding of chemical weapons ammunitions. When he said, well, this could be the tip of the iceberg. This is very much what it could be.
BLITZER; Mr. Taylor, thanks for joining us. Former weapons inspector Terence Taylor joining us on the phone. Appreciate it very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 4, 2003 - 14:51 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: U.N. weapons inspectors say they found another empty chemical warhead in Iraq, this one at an ammunition dump north of Baghdad.
Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, is standing by live in the Iraqi capital with this. First of all, tell us, Nic, what precisely have they found?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've found another chemical warhead from exactly the same type of 122 millimeter missile as the warheads they discovered about two and a half weeks ago at an ammunition site, al QaQaa just south of Baghdad.
Now, this discovery today at al Kadji (ph), north of Baghdad, again the warhead discovered in an ammunition dump. Now, if you remember two weeks ago when Hans Blix, Mohamed ElBaradei came to Baghdad, Iraqi officials said that they would initiate their own investigation to discover if Iraq had any more of these type of warheads. Very quickly, they came up with four more. Those four -- this was two weeks ago -- were discovered at al Kadji (ph) the same place the U.N. weapons inspectors appear today to have unilaterally discovered this other chemical warhead -- Wolf.
BLITZER: So the bottom line is this is one more of several that they've already discovered, or that they've found, but presumably, if you listen to the Bush administration, there are still thousands and thousands of others that have not been located. Is that basically what we're getting right now?
ROBERTSON: Exactly. The U.N. discovered a dozen two and a half weeks ago. The Iraqis discovered four more a few days later. That makes 16. This one, the 17th. According to U.S. officials, as you say, many, many more thousands -- 29,983 the number still outstanding would be at this time, Wolf.
BLITZER: And as far as the banned weapons, the weapons, the biological, the chemical, the nuclear capabilities, the longer-range ballistic missiles, so far the only things that they've actually found -- these inspectors -- are these dozen plus chemical warheads, which are empty. Is that fair to say?
ROBERTSON: That is fair to say. Nothing beyond that. Yesterday discovering a modified Lunar missile. We've had no details from the U.N. on that. Iraqis say that had nothing to do with weapons programs -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. We have some other breaking news coming out of Baghdad. Saddam Hussein, in his own words in what's believed to be the Iraqi leader's first videotaped interview in several years. He answers questions from a British anti-war activist, and a former member of the British Parliament, Anthony Benn, even though -- or more likely because he is not a journalist, Benn was granted one-on-one access to the security-obsessed Saddam Hussein this past Sunday. In excerpts just obtained by CNN, the Iraqi president flatly denies one of the prime allegations being leveled by the U.S. and Britain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): If we had a relationship with al Qaeda, and if we believed in this relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it. Through you, I say to whoever wants to listen or know, the answer is no. We do not have any relationship with al Qaeda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let's bring back Nic Robertson in Baghdad. Nic, this notion of an al Qaeda relationship with Saddam Hussein, supposedly the secretary of state of the United States, Colin Powell, tomorrow will be making additional information available on this front, but Saddam Hussein was pretty insistent he had no relationship with al Qaeda.
ROBERTSON: Since President Bush announced little -- almost a week ago that Colin Powell would make this address, Iraqi officials have been saying that whatever Colin Powell says is lies. As they've heard more details -- as they have heard more details, they've said, whatever satellite pictures may be used could be fabricated. Whatever audiotapes could be used could be manipulated. They say they have no faith in it whatsoever. Indeed they say, if this evidence is true, it should go to the weapons inspectors, not on the political level to the Security Council. They say they're going to challenge it. They say they're going to ask the U.N. weapons inspectors to verify whatever Colin Powell says -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Have the Iraqi officials specifically been asked, Nic, about this one al Qaeda operative, this guy named Al Zarqawi, who supposedly received medical treatment in Baghdad?
ROBERTSON: They're certainty aware of the allegations that surround his connection to Iraq, his connection to the possible assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan late last year, John Donnelly (sic). They say at this time nothing. We have heard nothing from Iraqi officials on this precise issue. They have denied many other allegations laid out before them -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Stand by, Nic. I want to play another excerpt from Saddam Hussein's interview. In this particular excerpt, Saddam Hussein alleges Iraq's destruction is part of a Bush administration plan to control the world's oil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): Of course oil is an important player in this region. We are part of the region, and consequently a part of the world. In this respect, we buy and sell. We're also active on the cultural, scientific, and human levels. No one can imagine any country, even the United States of America, with all its powers and resources, being able to alienate itself from the rest of the world or being totally independent of the rest of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Nic, the whole notion of oil, I'm sure it's something the other Iraqi officials have said -- I know that Tariq Aziz and others have said repeatedly this whole thing is only oil. The United States wants to control Iraq's oil, although this, I believe, may be the first time Saddam Hussein has made this suggestion. Give us a little perspective on the notion of the Iraqi allegation that it's all - it's all about oil.
ROBERTSON: Well, Wolf, Iraqi officials have been looking to other countries in the region to give them support at this time. In particular, they look to Syria because of Syria's influence on the U.N. Security Council. But they've also looked to the other oil rich Gulf states to give them some sort of support. The idea that the United States is after oil, they've gone beyond that. They've said that after Iraq, the United States will then go after consuming and gathering and taking control of oil in other countries.
It appears to be a strategy, a diplomatic strategy aimed at winning more regional support, and trying to alienate the United States from its other allies around the world -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Nic. Stand by. I want to play one additional excerpt from this interview with Saddam Hussein declaring, in this excerpt, a kinship with the people of Britain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): I want to tell the...
(AUDIO GAP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): ... as well as the U.S. government. There was no negative comments towards our government. We want to tell the people of Britain that Iraqis are brave people. They believe in human rights. They want to live in peace in this world, and they want their rights and dignity to be preserved.
I also urge you to tell the people of Britain that if Iraqis are attacked or insulted, they will fight bravely and courageously just like the Brits did during World War II. Each one fights their own way. We do not want war. But if attacked, Iraqis will defend their dignity, their sovereignty, and their security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: It's a fascinating example of Saddam Hussein's appealing directly over the head of Tony Blair, if you will, the British prime minister, trying to make an impact with the British public. It's a strategy those of us who have covered this story for many years have seen often in the past, isn't it -- Nic.
ROBERTSON: Absolutely. Indeed, just this week the newspapers were saying that Tony Blair had humiliated his country, again trying to make that appeal directly to the people of Great Britain. It is something we've heard a lot of here, not only from President Saddam Hussein. From other officials as well. It's a divide and conquer attitude, if you will. If they can make some division, even within a country between its leaders and its people, then that is a hope that that peace movement, something Tony Benn talked a lot about when he was here, that that can help change the course of the government of that country, and of course over the collective governments of the U.N. Security Council -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Tony Benn is the British socialist politician, a former member of the British parliament, in Baghdad -- was in Baghdad on Sunday, conducted this interview. Now, there have been plenty of other -- of so-called peace activists, Nic, who have gone to Iraq over these past several months. One or two of them have actually even met with Saddam Hussein, but this is the first time we have actually seen a videotaped interview, which presumably could be pretty significant, don't you think?
ROBERTSON: Absolutely. That was a point that Tony Benn appealed to the Iraqis to come here. He wrote a letter to Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister in September saying, Look, it is a good idea, no one has heard directly from your president. We hear these speeches on Iraqi television, but they are in a language that appeals to the Iraqi people. The international community doesn't understand what you are saying. Put it directly in an interview. That is what Tony Benn said.
Eventually Iraqis decided that it was time to bring him back two weeks ago, invited him in. That appears to be what's happened for the first time in what appears to be very clear language, not like the domestic broadcasts here, putting forward his points, possibly very valuable at a time when points are heard from other leaders -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, ANCHOR: Very confident in his tone, very -- seemingly moderate, seemingly reasonable, at least in those three excerpts we just aired here on CNN.
Nic, stand by. I want to bring in Terence Taylor, a former U.N. weapons inspector.
Mr. Taylor, thanks for joining us. You were just hearing these excerpts, Saddam Hussein flatly denying any weapons of mass destruction exist in Iraq, also denying any relationship with the al Qaeda terror network.
As you were listening to these excerpts, what was going through your mind?
TERENCE TAYLOR, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Well, I'm afraid it's the same thing all over again. Clearly they're not going to come up with the answers to the questions that Dr. Hans Blix, the head of the U.N. inspection teams, has demanded of the Iraqis. So to hear that kind of message, flat denial, is very discouraging and in the sense that it actually makes war more likely.
BLITZER: I can't help but notice the timing, the interview airing just the day before the secretary of state, Colin Powell, scheduled to make the U.S. case in a lengthy presentation before the U.N. Security Council. I assume, Mr. Taylor, you agree with me that this is no coincidence, why Saddam Hussein went public on television right now.
TAYLOR: Absolutely. No coincidence whatsoever. He certainly wanted to get in ahead of the U.S. Secretary of State's presentation tomorrow to the Security Council, where a substantial amount of evidence is going to be laid out before the international community, adding to that, that already exists.
So -- but nevertheless, this complete and flat denial is very disturbing.
BLITZER: You understand the British public, and he was addressing the British public as you heard in that third excerpt we just aired here on CNN.
Is it likely that his message will resonate with elements of the British public at large?
TAYLOR: Well, not the British public at large, although it's true that a large section of the British public is uneasy about going to war over this issue. So the public is divided.
So I suppose the regime hopes to divide opinion and exploit the country, in which a vigorous debate takes place on these issues, as it does indeed in the United States.
BLITZER: I noticed in the article that Secretary of State Powell wrote yesterday in the "Wall Street Journal," which I'm sure you read, Mr. Taylor, among other things he writes this: "While there will be no smoking gun, we will provide evidence concerning the weapons programs that Iraq is working so hard to hide."
No smoking gun makes it sound like he doesn't have the goods.
TAYLOR: Well, I don't think it's quite like that. I think this phrase that's crept into the language, or hasn't crept in, it's been blasted into the language, a smoking gun, is really a political statement, rather than a technical one.
I think what I would interpret Colin Powell meaning by saying "no smoking gun" is there and then he's not going to decide -- he's not going to say the U.S. is going to go ahead with military action now. It's not a thing that will change the policy there and then.
And so there will be plenty of technical evidence, of course, that Iraq is in breach of its obligations under the U.N. Security Council resolutions, deliberately saying that in the plural. BLITZER: Mr. Taylor, before I let you go, one final question. They found another empty chemical warhead. In the scheme of things, how big a deal is that, as far as the weapons inspection process is concerned?
TAYLOR: Well, I think it's very interesting. One -- I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that because it's exactly what happened in the 1990s, and little bits of evidence were accumulated over time.
And I -- when I heard that, I recalled the phrase of Dr. Hans Blix at the U.N. Security Council on the 27th of January, when he commented on the earlier finding of chemical weapons ammunitions. When he said, well, this could be the tip of the iceberg. This is very much what it could be.
BLITZER; Mr. Taylor, thanks for joining us. Former weapons inspector Terence Taylor joining us on the phone. Appreciate it very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
