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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Free-For-All-Friday For February 7, 2003
Aired February 7, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: The terror alert is set to high, code orange. What kind of threat does the US face as President Bush tells the world the game is over.
And now that you've seen the face of Michael Jackson, do you see any reason for child welfare officials to investigate the pop star? We'll talk to a personal friend of Michael's about the man from Neverland. TALKBACK LIVE's Free-For-All-Friday begins now.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Today is Free-For-All-Friday. We have a lot to talk about this coming up hour. We're going to talk to our national security correspondent, David Ensor. And we are awaiting a press conference out of New York City's City Hall where Governor George Pataki and Mayor Michael Bloomberg will be there to talk about how New York is handling the heightened security alert we're now on. In the meantime, as you probably have heard, we are on code orange. What does that mean? How do we get to this point?
Let's go to David Ensor, who is standing by with the latest -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, senior officials, when they announced it, the attorney general and others said this was based on specific intelligence information. And talking to intelligence officials, I gather there's a lot of it.
They're hearing from multiple sources of intelligence, a lot of terrorists talking amongst each other, communicating with each other about something big. Something that they're planning.
In fact, there may be more than one plot going on, both here, attacks planned in this country, and attacks planned against American targets overseas. A lot of what they call chatter in the intelligence business. That might be conversations eavesdropped on by US intelligence agencies. It could be some intelligence from an agent. It could come through some other intelligence agency of another country.
In any case, what it adds up to is trouble and that is why the US Government decided to raise the threat level to high and warn people to be on alert.
NEVILLE: David, obviously, that information, that chatter, all of the intelligence that the government has collected, obviously is substantial enough to go ahead and raise the alert to orange?
ENSOR: Well, that's right. They say that the threat level, the amount of noise they're hearing, the chatter, goes up and down from month to month. But this is the highest it's been since September 11, according to officials. It's quite serious.
So while they don't have -- they don't know of a specific plot for a specific target on a specific day, they do have information suggesting specific targets in some cases and specific places and specific methods. They're not willing to put that out, because they want to deal with it, and they don't want to reveal their sources and methods, and they might threaten that if they were to pull all that information out.
They're dealing with it, but they want the public to be aware, because a lot of this is talk among terrorists. Some of them known and serious terrorists, officials say, and they don't know for sure what they're up to. But they think that there could be something major in the U.S., particularly during the period of the Hajj, which is this time period on the Muslim calendar that we're in right now, and that comes to a close around mid-February.
NEVILLE: And David, you know, when people hear, the average person hears the information about increased chatter and credible and substantial threats, the first thing they want to know is, what is the government doing about those threats? Aside from putting us on a higher alert.
ENSOR: When the U.S. government puts this kind of information out, they are also communicating a lot more specific stuff to the states and the local governments. And code orange or whatever you want to call it, heightened alert, tells the state and local authorities to take a series of steps, and it varies from place to place in the country what exactly they'll do. You may see a larger police presence here and there. You may see some tightened security at key facilities. There will be a number of steps taken. They don't want to announce what they are. That makes it too easy for the terrorists.
NEVILLE: OK, David. As we saw shortly, some pictures of the Governor, George Pataki, entering New York City's City Hall. Our Jason Carroll is standing by outside now.
And Jason, if you could, give us an idea of the atmosphere there in New York, and if we can find out any sort of expectations from this news conference.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of good questions, Arthel. We're basically waiting to hear what Governor Pataki, as well as New York City's Mayor, Michael Bloomberg, and the police commissioner, Ray Kelly, have to say when that press conference gets underway. Expect it to happen in just a few moments.
I can tell you that since 9/11, the city has basically already been at the equivalent of an orange alert, and there are a number of things that Police Commissioner Ray Kelly has done since 9/11 to try to protect the city. 1,000 of the city's police officers are assigned to counter-terrorism activities.
In addition to that, the city of New York, the police department has developed something called the Hercules Unit, that is a special team of officers who show up unannounced at sensitive locations throughout the city. They're also backed up by the city's harbor and aviation units.
In addition to that, New York City's hospitals have an emergency plan in effect in case there happens to be some sort of a chemical or a biological attack on the city. So a number of things that New York City has done in the wake of 9/11.
What we're waiting to hear right now is from the officials here at City Hall to see if anything else will happen, now that the rest of the country is at a heightened alert status -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Jason Carroll, thank you so much.
Bringing David Ensor back into this conversation now. David, I want to ask you if you're hearing anything about the coincidence of these heightened threats and the possibility of going to war.
ENSOR: You know, the officials I talked to say that is a coincidence, in their view. They say that their impression is that al Qaeda, in particular, has been looking for a way to attack the U.S. or individual U.S. citizens for -- ever since 9/11 and before that. And that they will do it when they can do it. There isn't much of an impression amongst the U.S. officials I speak to that there is anything planned tied to the possible war with Iraq.
Certainly, the U.S. government does watch Iraqi intelligence officers that it knows are in this country and some of the agents it knows of. There aren't that many of them, officials say. And they are closely watched. There's not much concern, at least among the officials I talked to, that they'll be up to anything much.
NEVILLE: OK. David Ensor, national security correspondent, thank you very much for filling us in.
And with me here in Atlanta is CNN correspondent Mike Brooks. Mike is a former detective for the Washington police department, where he worked with the FBI, joint terrorism task force.
And Mike, if you could first of all talk about for us the government involvement in situations involving heightened terrorist alerts.
MIKE BROOKS, ANALYST: Arthel, every time there is an increase, or particularly since 9/11, the FBI's joint terrorism task forces, of which there are task forces assigned to almost every one of the 56 FBI field offices now.
In Washington, D.C., for instance, their joint terrorism task force, there are over 21 different agencies that are working together, both federal, state and local. Now, of course, D.C.'s not a state, but they are bordered by states of Maryland and Virginia. So you have authorities there also working on it. They act as a conduit between the federal government and the local and state law enforcement. So they're the ones that actually bring the information to the different agencies on how they can prepare better for an act of terrorism.
They've been working 24/7. I spoke with one of my former colleagues today and they said that they are -- they have been, as he said, hopping 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and they're not expecting that to let up at all. And they are very well -- they do a great job, and they're trying to do their best to make sure an act of terrorism doesn't occur.
NEVILLE: And Mike, you know, in times like this, the government is always asking everyone to be vigilant. What does that mean? What are people supposed to do?
BROOKS: I think that -- when I was in law enforcement, I was on the joint terrorism task force, I would put out the message and say over and over again, after something happens, for instance, after 9/11, if something doesn't happen six months to a year down the road, we as Americans tend to get complacent and kind of get lulled back into a false sense of security and say, nothing's going to happen. Nothing's happened so far.
But we have to remain vigilant.
If you're out at a sporting event, for instance, the NBA All-Star game is going on here in Atlanta, if you're at a mall, if you're out on the way to work, at your office. If you see anything that your gut tells you is suspicious, you should call 911 and let someone know about it. Or if you're at a mall, let the security people at the mall know about it, because everything right now is important. People should not, should not let anything go by that they think is possibly suspicious. Because people's gut feelings, they know, when they say, I think that's suspicious. Most likely, it is suspicious.
NEVILLE: And you know, of course, we're waiting for that presser out of New York, Governor George Pataki and Michael Bloomberg, Mayor of New York City, they're going to talk about how New York is handling the heightened security alert. There are so many landmarks in New York City, for instance. How do they handle something like that?
BROOKS: You look at cities like New York and Washington. As they said today, the different targets, icons that could be the target of a terrorist attack. They have been handling these kind of things for years, even prior to September 11. You took a look at cities like Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, Chicago, major cities, they've been handling this for years.
We can't also forget some of the small towns. Some people say, I live in Smalltown, USA, nothing's going to happen here. I think we were proved wrong when we looked at Oklahoma City and the bombing of the Murrah federal building there. That was considered a small town. So no matter where you are, from a small town to a large town, here in the United States, you have to remain vigilant.
NEVILLE: In fact, it probably would be equally as important, as you're saying, for those small towns to be alert because there is a that assumption, well, it won't happen here, who cares about this city because it's too small?
BROOKS: Absolutely.
You look at some of the other small towns, where they've actually found terrorist cells, some terrorist activity. Small towns around Texas, in and around the Dallas area, that have been just hotbeds of radical fundamentalism, if you will.
NEVILLE: Mike Brooks, thank you very much. Always good to see you here on TALKBACK LIVE.
We want to remind you that we're waiting for that press conference out of New York. Governor George Pataki and Mayor Michael Bloomberg is going to tell us how New York City is handling, or New York, in general, is handling the heightened security alert.
We have to take a break now. But when we come back, there is a whole lot more. Will the heightened state of alert change your life? We going to talk to our panel about that. Don't go anywhere, the talk continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. With us today are, Roland Martin, editor of BlackAmericaWeb.com and news editor of "Savoy" magazine. He is the author of "Speak Brother: A Black Man's View of America."
And Martha Zoller, a radio talk show host for WDNU-AM in Atlanta.
I want to welcome both of you to the show.
Roland, I'm going to start with you, and ask you, what do you make of this raised level?
ROLAND MARTIN, EDITOR, BLACKAMERICAWEB.COM: Well, clearly, they're doing this based upon the evidence. But I think the problem in America is as your correspondent said, we have become extremely complacent. Americans are not used to looking over their shoulders for evidence of terroristic activity, unlike folks who live in the Middle East.
So I think, until something happens, frankly a lot of us are not going to be aware of those kind circumstances. And that is unfortunate, because we should be more cognizant of looking out for suspicious activity. But again, it's all based upon if something happens. Frankly, we are a society that reacts, versus being proactive.
NEVILLE: Don't you think the government is trying to be proactive by raising the alert system to orange, and telling people to be on the lookout, and I'm sure they're doing much more than that that we're not privy to? MARTIN: Oh, most certainly, the government is being proactive by raising the terror alert, but it's still based upon whether Americans are going to be as alert. As diligent in focus in looking for possible activity.
NEVILLE: OK.
MARTIN: That is going to be the critical issue.
NEVILLE: So, Martha, do you think that people, the Americans, general people, general public, if everybody is becoming a little bit desensitized to these alerts, the high alert, the yellow, blues, orange, I don't know what it is, they're saying well, maybe nothing's going to happen, nothing has happened so far, since September 11, that is. So maybe people have slacked off a little bit in terms of their vigilance.
MARTHA ZOLLER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I don't know if they've slacked off or not, but I was listening to the words that he chose, proactive. Sounds a lot like preemptive, and it seems like we're talking about whether we should be preemptive or not with Iraq. And I think a lot of us have agreed that we should.
But as far as this alert, I was sort of expecting it. Am I complacent about what I'm doing? Maybe so, but I do look around, and I have picked up the phone and called the star number that you can call to get to the police to report things and things like that, that I didn't do before. I don't know how many of the audience has done those kinds of things, but I've done a little more of that than I have done in the past, but I do think that the level made me stop and think. I didn't worry about it until I saw the press conference, and actually saw how serious all of them were. Then I felt a little more serious about it.
NEVILLE: We're waiting for another news conference right now out of New York.
Roland, here's a question, though: Do you think the public should be told, or does it make people too anxious? I mean, there's a fine line.
MARTIN: Oh, no, the public should be told. Because what often happens is, when there's a catastrophe, the first thing we say is, why didn't you tell us? So certainly, we must be told.
But again, looking at September 11, I think a lot of people have the assumption that that took place in Washington, D.C, that took place in New York City. Therefore, it could not happen in my city. And hopefully, we will not see any terroristic activity take place in Dallas, Houston, Oakland, in New Orleans, and Miami, other cities across the country.
But again, if that begins to happen, then I think you're going to see widespread apprehension, as opposed to folks saying, you know what? It happened in those two cities, it's really not going to affect me. So I'm not going to change my way of life. ZOLLER: Well, we have to be vigilant, too. We have to change our way of life. And I think Roland is right. That you've got to take a look outside where you normally would.
I'm on a radio station, WDUN, that's up in Gainesville, Georgia, on Lake Lanier. If the dam were to be bombed, or taken out, that blocks Lake Lanier and dams up the Chattahoochee River, you're going to kill a lot of people downstream in Atlanta that are going to be drowned or whatever. I mean, there are, even though it's a small town, there are targets and you've got to be vigilant, and you've got to make sure you look around you.
NEVILLE: On that note, I have to take a break. We're going to go from al Qaeda to war with Iraq. President Bush says the showdown with Saddam Hussein could be a defining moment for the U.N. Security Council. The President says the game is over. Do you think it is?
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. We want to let you know that we are keeping an eye on New York City Hall, where we're waiting for Governor George Pataki and Michael Bloomberg.
In fact, they are approaching the podium now, so let's listen in.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Good afternoon.
As President Bush continues to do everything he can to protect our country by prosecuting the war against terror and preventing the spread of weapons of mass destruction, some may seek to weaken our resolve by attacking our country. Today, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge informed me that the Federal Government was raising its threat level to orange.
As you have heard, although the city has been at orange since September 11, 2001, intelligence information and common sense suggests that we need to increase our security measures where Attorney General Ashcroft detailed earlier this afternoon. With that in mind, we'll be increasing our security at the appropriate locations, and we will pay special attention to places where lots of people gather, especially public places like lobbies of hotels, apartment buildings, and our subway system.
I have spoken earlier with Governor Pataki and just in a few minutes ago, again, and we will be formally requesting assistance as needed from the state. We are working very closely with the state and the federal government and everybody can rest assured that we will leave no stone unturned.
As we learned so tragically on September 11, New York's role as capitol of the world and its symbolic value as the center of American business will always make it a target for those who want to destroy our way of life. My message today to the people of the City of New York is simple. Go about your lives as you normally would, and we will do everything in our power to protect you. Leave the worrying to the professionals and live your lives. Otherwise, the terrorists will win without doing anything.
Sadly, the new reality of today's world is that living with fear is something that people want us to do, but we are not going to do that. If you see something suspicious, be alert, be vigilant, and call the NYPD counter-terrorism hotline at 888-NYC-SAFE. That's 888- 692-7233.
Let me just repeat, there are no specific threats that should cause any of us to do anything other than go about our daily lives as normally as we would, had we not had this press conference. The professionals are doing everything they think is appropriate and the city is getting all of the cooperation we could ask for from the state, from the Governor and all of his people and from the federal government. Let me now introduce to you, the Governor of the state of New York, George Pataki. Governor?
GEORGE PATAKI, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Michael, and thank you for your leadership of this great city.
As was just said by the Mayor, the city has been at level orange alert. The state today has gone statewide to level orange. We are taking appropriate steps to mobilize the resources and provide the communications to make sure that what I believe is the finest office of public security, and the finest security team in America, is able to make sure that every step is taken to prevent attacks that would harm or damage the people of this great state.
As the mayor indicated, this is the greatest city and the greatest state and the greatest country of the world. Because of that, we always have to be vigilant and we have to be prepared. Since September 11, no state has done more. I want to thank my Director of Public Security, the Office of Public Security, Jim Kallstrom, and his great team for what they have done.
Specifically today, we've activated certain specialized units of the State Police and National Guard that have capabilities to monitor and take steps to prevent attacks from occurring. We have activated other National Guard members, not just to help the city, if they're called upon, but to help local law enforcement across the state.
We not only have the finest emergency service team in America, we also, as of last week, have a brand new system. I talked about it in my State of the State address in January. And last week, our information sharing analysis center was activated. And that system has notified 13 different sections of the critical infrastructure of this state as to steps we're taking and ask to see if they need assistance from us, ranging from everything from the financial sector to the transportation sector to the energy sectors of our state. We have activated our emergency command center in Albany. It will be operational 24 hours a day, to make sure that the proper coordination exists between local and state officials, and particularly between the city and the state and all the different agencies.
We've been working with other state authorities, the MTA, obviously, has ramped up their security. They have put in place a plan, which has been in place for some time, to make sure that additional steps can be taken proactively in the event of the type of alert that we received from Governor Ridge today. The Port Authority is increasing its security efforts at the bridges and tunnels, and at their assets in this city as well. And our Department of Health, through its health provider emergency network, has notified literally, virtually, every single healthcare provider and physician in our state to make sure that we have enhanced monitoring of possible infectious diseases and the prompting aggregation of infectious or other health information that may be of importance to state, local or federal officials.
Quite simply, we are now at level orange, but we have had plans and been prepared to go to level orange for quite some time. We do have, as I said, I think, the finest proactive security, healthcare, emergency, communications and other systems in place. We have the finest National Guard and State Police in the country. And they are prepared to help any locality, or to help the city.
I just want to reiterate what Mayor Bloomberg said during his remarks. We have got to go about our lives with confidence, and with the freedom that we're entitled to have as New Yorkers and as Americans. Yes, there are threats. Yes, the United States is a target, and New York is one of the premiere places within that country. But go out to dinner, take the subway, go to a movie, enjoy the greatest city in the world, and the greatest state in the world and rest assured that the finest security teams anywhere in the world will be doing their professional best to protect all of you.
We do want enhanced vigilance and the Mayor indicated the city's hotline number. We have a state tips hotline number. 1-866-SAFE-NYS. 1-866-SAFE-NYS. That is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So if there is legitimate concern about suspicious behavior or suspicious individuals, that is the number to call.
We have been through tests that other parts of our country, and the world, have never experienced and we have stood together as New Yorkers. During this time of enhanced security concerns, I'm confident we're going to do it again, and we will come through this fine. Thank you.
BLOOMBERG: We have Commissioner Kelly here. The NYPD is coordinating all of our efforts here in the city, and the Governor has assured me that any of the state assets that he needs, all he's got to do is call Jim Kallstrom, which he will, and they'll be made available. Some of them already have been, and Commissioner Kelly feels, at the moment, he has adequate resources to protect this city, and we should go about our business.
We'll be happy to take a couple of questions, if somebody would like. Yes.
QUESTION: What do you mean when you say you've activated certain state wide guard teams?
PATAKI: Well, the specifically, the civil support team has been activated and mobilized. They have enhanced capability to do monitoring and to provide surveillance. Not surveillance in the sense of observing individuals, but against biological, chemical or radiological weapons. They have been activated. We've also put in place, just called in, other National Guard units. Not to deploy, although there have been National Guard people deployed in this city since September 11, but to be prepared, so that if there is a request from the city or any locality, we'll be able to respond even that much quicker.
QUESTION: This is a small, elite group.
PATAKI: That is a small, elite group that has tremendous capabilities for chemical, biological, radiological monitoring. And they will be doing that.
NEVILLE: OK. We've been listening to Governor George Pataki of New York and New York's Mayor, Michael Bloomberg, there.
Roland, you were listening to that press conference. I want to hear some thoughts that were going through your head when you were listening to the statements.
MARTIN: Well they said, frankly, a lot of the stuff we've been talking about, as you continue to do your normal course, but at the same time pay attention. They're also going to be diverting a significant level of resources towards those likely targets. And so again that's critical. You're going to see that also in cities across the country, law enforcement agencies doing the exact same thing. So it is a natural reaction to this terrorist threat.
NEVILLE: Martha?
ZOLLER: Well I was in New York and Washington in the last couple of weeks. And I will tell you, New York was at a much higher state of alert when I was there a couple of weeks ago. You needed ID to get into every building. And from what they've said, they've been at that level and it appeared to be that way.
Now in Washington, they -- it was much easier to get into the public buildings, interestingly enough, than it was to get, like Senate office buildings. There was people on the phone not really checking things. But as far as this press conference, I think what they said was, go on with your life. But what crossed my mind, Arthel...
NEVILLE: But then be vigilant at the same time, yes.
ZOLLER: I know. I'm thinking, go out to dinner, and go to the movies, but worry about who might be sitting next to you. And it's a little cynical on my part, but maybe we need to be cynical. We need to be a little cynical right now, I think.
MARTIN: And I'll tell you this, Arthel...
NEVILLE: You know what, Roland? I have to take a break.
MARTIN: I understand.
NEVILLE: Sorry about that, because I want to switch gears now.
MARTIN: No problem.
NEVILLE: A controversial documentary on Michael Jackson's private life has left the entertainer feeling betrayed. And at least one California attorney calling for an investigation of his relationship with children. Right after the break, I'm going to introduce you to a personal friend of Michael's. Find out what he has to say about the reporter and the person.
That's coming up next. Don't go anywhere.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. A California prosecutor says Michael Jackson's admission that he still lets children speak in his bedroom isn't enough to prompt an investigation. Last night, a British documentary called "Living with Michael Jackson" aired in the United States. In it, Michael admitted he lets children sleep in his bedroom. But he says it's fun; it's innocent.
Producer Michael Bashir spent eight months with Michael filming that documentary. And right now I want you to meet Steve Manning -- he's behind me -- a PR and sports marketing consultant, who has known Jackson and the entire Jackson for, what, more than 30 years, Steve?
STEVE MANNING, PR AND MARKETING CONSULTANT: Yes.
NEVILLE: So when you -- hold up the mike for me there. And when you hear or see these types of -- this documentary last night, when you know about these -- this type of reporting, how do you feel?
MANNING: Well I think it's a very tragic documentary, I think. Michael put a lot of trust in this producer, I think, and he definitely was betrayed to fully reveal himself. I think he was definitely betrayed. Knowing him as well as I do, he put a lot of trust in him, first of all.
NEVILLE: And do you feel -- because, you know, I felt like the reporter exploited Michael Jackson last night.
MANNING: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think all the information he got was really done on the fact that Michael really put a lot of trust and faith in this man, and definitely betrayed him, stabbed him in the back. That's my personal comment.
NEVILLE: Because let me -- let's go ahead, before we keep going, we want to take a look at some of the excerpts from the documentary last night. If you can pop that up for me on full screen. It says -- Bashir says, "Is it really appropriate for a 44-year-old man to share a bed with a child who is not related to him at all?" Michael says, "That's a beautiful thing." Bashir says, "That's not a worrying thing?"
Then Michael says, "Why should it be worrying? Who is the criminal? Who is Jack the Ripper in the room? This is a guy trying to heal a child."
And my take on it, again, that Michael truly sees children as gifts of god and that I don't think he would harm a child.
MANNING: Oh he certainly does. First of all, the young man he's speaking about was recovering from cancer, first of all.
NEVILLE: And is healed now.
MANNING: Yes, but still...
NEVILLE: I mean I'm saying that, that love and support...
MANNING: Oh absolutely, very important to healing, as you know. First of all, I think the whole Neverland ranch has a special room there for terminally ill kids and children who are abused, all of that. I think it's really a terrible misunderstanding, I think, on my part. I would say that people really don't understand him.
NEVILLE: Help us understand Michael.
MANNING: Well, I think he grew up as a young child in show business there, his father put a whole lot of energy into him, the whole family. From the early, late '60s, Mr. Jackson raised nine children. And in the 1960s, that's not easy to do. He was a strong disciplinarian, but I think that Michael coming out from a child...
NEVILLE: It seems like he went way beyond being a disciplinarian. He went over the top.
MANNING: Not if you raise nine children.
NEVILLE: Excuse me. From what Michael Jackson said last night, that he was regurgitating because he was afraid of his father. That's over the top.
MANNING: Well I think that the fact he raised nine children and none of the kids never went to jail, never had drug problems, that itself is an accomplishment right there, I would say.
NEVILLE: Michael Jackson said he threw up, he was afraid of his father. I feel like Michael Jackson was a victim. And I'm going to take a look now at another part of the interview last night. Bashir asked Michael about using a surrogate mom for his latest child. Blanket is his nickname.
Jackson says, "When you say -- not this is another excerpt; we'll go here -- Jackson says, "When you say bed, you're thinking sexual. They make it sexual. It's not sexual. We're going to sleep."
"I tuck them in. I put a little music on and do a little story time, read a book. It's very sweet. I put the fireplace on, give them hot milk. You know we have a little cookies."
Again, here's a guy who -- is it arrested (ph) development? He sees himself as a child. And these are his -- from what I'm gathering, the only people who see him with no preconceived notions. These children are the only people who see Michael for his heart.
MANNING: Yes, they do. Absolutely. Yes, they do.
NEVILLE: Steve, I'm more passionate about this than you are. You know them.
MANNING: Well no. I'm saying that I think he is a man who is extremely loving in terms of children. He's a child. He's a 44-year- old man, but he definitely has a heart of a child. But also, on the other hand, he's a very shrewd business man also. He runs a multi- million dollar corporation also.
NEVILLE: Yes, and he's a genius.
MANNING: Yes he is. Absolutely.
NEVILLE: And Martha, I know you want to jump in. Roland Martin probably has something to say. I see a bunch of hands here in the audience. And you get the e-mails and the phone calls going. You too can get in on this conversation.
We'll have more of this after the break. Don't go anywhere. The "Talk" continues.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
A little bit later, I want to let you know that we're going to go live to Nevada test training range, where the U.S. Air Force is showing off its hardware. You'll get a real glimpse of the show.
In the meantime, we're going to go back now to our conversation with Steve Manning, a personal friend of Michael Jackson's and the Jackson family. And we do still have with us Roland Martin, as well as Martha Zoller. And Roland, you've been listening to the conversation and you are aware of the documentary. I want to hear your thoughts, your reaction to the documentary.
MARTIN: The man is 44 years old. What in the hell is he doing sleeping in the bed with kids who are not his, who are not related? Can he not afford another bed? Can they not sleep in another room? Does Michael have a team of psychologists and doctors and a wellness operation to nurse these kids back to health?
I'm sorry, this is a grown man who is trying to justify it, saying it's a beautiful thing. You're 44.
NEVILLE: But don't you think there is a -- that is very odd behavior, yes it is, but don't you think...
MARTIN: No, it's weird. It's very odd, yes.
NEVILLE: Weird, odd, same thing. But don't you think that there's a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) development here? I mean I think that Michael is a genius, but I think somewhere he stopped growing in that part of him.
MARTIN: Absolutely. He's still 12 years old. And you know what? I understand what your guest said about Michael Jackson's father raising nine kids. Well, you know what? My grandmother and grandfather raised eight children.
So there's a price to pay for fame and we're recognizing that. Michael Jackson clearly has not dealt with his troubled childhood, has not dealt with the harshness that his father imposed. For a 44-year- old man to essentially still be fearful of his father, that should raise a serious red flag, especially for someone who has known him and his family for 30 some odd years.
NEVILLE: OK. But then the red flag is raised. But where is Michael's friend? Who can say, Michael, maybe you should talk to a professional? Who is there to nurture that part?
MARTIN: Well you know what? I know Michael's brother, Marlin (ph). Marlin (ph) clearly is more developed than Michael is. But again, what are the dynamics of that family? Clearly, someone in his family must be able to go to Michael and say, Mike, bro, you need some help. We need to at least talk about this.
NEVILLE: Let's see what -- Danella (ph) is it?
DANELLA: Yes, Danella (ph). I think that Michael Jackson was definitely totally exploited in this interview. Now, I do agree that there are some issues regarding the situation with the children. But he did make it clear that the kids are not sleeping in the same bed with him. That there is an infatuation.
That when they spend the night with him, they want to be near him. They want to be around him.
NEVILLE: They see him as their buddy. OK. Listen, I have to take a break right now. Thank you.
Here's the "Question of the Day." What do you think of Michael Jackson now that you perhaps know him better? Give me a call at 1- 800-310-4CNN or of course you can e-mail me at TALKBACK@cnn.com.
Right now, though, we want to go to Nevada test training range, where they're putting on quite an air show for the generals. CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley is there -- Frank.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, it is quite a show taking place here in Nevada for new one star generals and admirals. They are learning what the Air Force capabilities are. We will be learning along with them, seeing what some of the Air Force assets are that could be brought to bear in a possible conflict with Iraq. We'll be showing you the B-2 bomber live shortly.
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NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. It's time to find out what you think about Michael Jackson. It is our "Question of the Day." In the meantime, though, Martha Zoller, I want to get your thoughts.
ZOLLER: Well -- and I have a lot of compassion for Michael Jackson, but he has orchestrated a lot of media events in his time. And he knew there was a camera there, he knew he was sitting down and being interviewed. And for him to say he's been betrayed now, he just didn't like the light he was shone in. I don't think he was betrayed.
NEVILLE: Martha, you are a talk show host. You understand that there is a way to have leading questions. And I think that that's what that reporter did.
ZOLLER: But he's been in the media his whole life.
NEVILLE: Yes but he's not savvy in that area, I don't think.
ZOLLER: He has orchestrated many, many media events that have gone in his favor.
NEVILLE: OK. Go ahead, Steve.
MANNING: I disagree totally. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he definitely was betrayed. Definitely, absolutely.
ZOLLER: By the interviewer?
MANNING: Yes.
NEVILLE: OK. I have some e-mails coming in now I want to share with you. Coming in from Rick in Carlisle, "Almost everyone in this nation thinks he's not mentally stable. No one would have their children sleep in their bed every night."
OK. Thank you very much for that e-mail. Coming in now from Annie in California, "If this were a regular guy making these kinds of comments, he would be arrested. After watching last night, I have no doubt that he no longer has a grip on reality."
Chris (ph), what do you say?
CHRIS: I think that the issue that's not being portrayed is that the family members of the kids that they're sending over there. Michael's not kidnapping these kids, these kids are coming over voluntarily. And their parents know and trust Michael Jackson enough to let them spend the night there.
NEVILLE: Thank you. Oh, do I have time for one more or no? What, Roland? Quickly, I'm out of time.
MARTIN: That's terrible parenting.
NEVILLE: OK. Roland Martin, Steve Manning, Martha Zoller, thank you very much for joining us here today on TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. I will see you again Monday, 3:00 Eastern, 12:00 Pacific.
Right now, we go to Nevada training range, where the Air Force is about to demonstrate some awesome firepower. CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley is there. Frank, take it away.
BUCKLEY: Yes, Arthel. And again, this is a situation in which new one star generals and admirals are coming here to see what the Air Force capabilities are. And we're watching along with these generals.
And coming up now on us is the 117 stealth aircraft. And it's going to fly by us in a second. It's going to get pretty loud. Here it goes. This is a fly-by after it just dropped some ordnance over the range.
And joining me here is Colonel Joe Ranis (ph), who is with the 53rd wing. You're the commander, sir. Let's talk about the 117 here. What is the capability of that 117 and what sort of capability does it bring to a theater commander?
COL. JOE RANIS, AIR FORCE: Frank, that's a great question. The 117 is one of many of our aircraft that work together. But the 117 provides stealth and precision engagement across the whole battlefield. As you know, it was first employed in Desert Storm with big numbers. And as we saw right here, great demonstration and precision in engagement and timing.
BUCKLEY: And we're going to be seeing the B-2 momentarily. In fact, I believe that's the B-2 approaching. Tell us as we watch the B-2 now what is the specialness (ph) about this aircraft?
RANIS: Well, again, it's a stealth bomber out of Whitman Air Force Base. Flew strategic mission here. Getting ready to drop two 2,000-pound weapons. Normally, in a normal engagement, he'd be up in higher altitudes. But today, for the visual experience of everyone, he's down at a lower altitude.
There he goes. The bombay (ph) doors open. And he'll have weapons release. And again, we'll get the weapons out here in just a second. You see again, those are high drags, and he's going to come off in a turn to the north and then back around.
BUCKLEY: And as you were saying, as we see these bombs hit on targets -- and we'll feel that sound wave in just a second here -- as we see that, that this is not the normal profile of a B-2 on attack.
RANIS: No, normal profile -- as we're getting the effects right there. Normal profile of B-2 would be a high altitude at night. He's part of our chief of staff's game plan for global strike taskforce. He'll be part of the force that will kick down the door to destroy the enemy threats, and then we can engage with our persistent forces, both our land and sea forces, our military then will be able to engage.
As you can see right now, he's turning over the hills. And he's going to make a pass back across us here in just a second.
BUCKLEY: And what's incredible about this aircraft is that, even in a situation that is heavily defended or in which you have command and control, this is an aircraft that, in theory, can get in and make a dent before the rest of the air crew can get in.
RANIS: Not just in theory. Proved in practice in Kosovo. The B-2 is precision and stealth and a key part to our future plans in global strike taskforce.
BUCKLEY: And why is it that you have this sort of a demonstration? This is such a sophisticated aircraft. Some people will say, is this something that we should be -- the U.S. should be showing the capability of such aircraft to anyone who might become an enemy or is an enemy of the U.S.? Is that the right thing to do?
RANIS: Well, first of all, let me go back. This is a training exercise, along with the demonstration that we do, not only for our forces, but for our general officers, our future leaders, so they can understand the capabilities of the systems and the aircraft and the weapons. And it's a whole link of how we work together that we're demonstrating here.
BUCKLEY: This aircraft you said comes from Whitman. Some of those guys have flown 29-hour missions in Operation Enduring Freedom, would fly from Whitman all the way to Afghanistan and back. I remember talking to some folks there who said that in the back they would actually rack out there and would sleep on folding chairs, lawn chairs. Is that correct?
RANIS: Well the story is, I've been to my B-2 unit. I have a unit there, and the guys will actually tell you they have lawn chairs that they will -- when they're not needed at the controls -- one pilot will rest, and then he'll be ready for when he's needed.
BUCKLEY: All right. Well, Colonel Joe Ranis (ph), we really appreciate your information, sir, and your insight. An incredible display going on here in Nevada. You just saw the B-2 a moment ago, the 117. Arthel, back to you.
NEVILLE: All right. Frank Buckley, that was a thrilling demonstration. Thank you very much.
We are indeed out of time. I'm Arthel Neville. Thanks so much for joining us. See you again Monday at 3:00 Eastern, 12:00 Pacific, with more TALKBACK LIVE.
Judy Woodruff is next with "INSIDE POLITICS."
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