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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Major Blizzard Paralyzes Major Cities Along East Coast; E.U. Calls for Emergency Summit on Iraq
Aired February 17, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVELLE, CNN HOST: Hello everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
And if you are in the Northeast, you are probably cold. The monster blizzard that has paralyzed major cities along the East Coast has just moved into the Boston area, and the crippling downfall has already delivered a winter holiday to residents along the East Coast.
Now, travelers across the country are feeling the effects as more than 2,100 flights -- that's 2,100 -- have been canceled and countless others delayed.
CNN's Daryn Kagan is in New York, and Patty Davis is at Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C.
And, Daryn, the last time I checked, you were standing near Columbus Circle. Where are you now?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I still am, although it's all starting to kind of look the same, Central Park and Columbus Circle. Nineteen inches, that's what we have at Central Park so far, the third highest accumulation in New York City history.
Let's take a walk, Arthel...
NEVILLE: Let's do that.
KAGAN: ... in your old town, OK?
NEVILLE: That's right. My old...
KAGAN: If I fall in, I expect your friends to come and get me, OK?
NEVILLE: That's my old hood, Daryn.
KAGAN: I know. Around here -- well, it wasn't looking like this when you're walking in your heels, Arthel.
Columbus Circle, you can tell folks how busy it usually is, right?
NEVILLE: That's right.
KAGAN: Well, not today. Folks not really getting around. We have all of this accumulation. You know, I think some people look at this and say, you know, what's the big deal, we've seen this much snow. But keep in mind, Arthel, at this time yesterday, none of this snow was here.
NEVILLE: Exactly.
KAGAN: This has all kind of fallen since last night. So, I'll tell you -- make my way here.
NEVILLE: I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at you, Daryn, but...
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Oh, that's OK. You know, we're having a good time out here. And you know...
NEVILLE: You do look like you're having a good time. But you know what, Daryn? I mean, New Yorkers -- you're standing by a car right now, right? That's the top of a car you're level with.
KAGAN: Yes, I am like the same as standing on the top of a car. There is a good idea for you.
I've got to tell you, too, New Yorkers having a good time with this. People are out in Central Park. They are having fun. People weren't working today anyway. What the heck? They have their dogs, they have their skis, they have their sleds. I even saw snowboarders heading into Central Park.
NEVILLE: That's perfect, and kids are already off from school, so they're loving this...
KAGAN: Yes.
NEVILLE: ... playing in the snow.
KAGAN: Exactly.
NEVILLE: Now, you know what, Daryn? If you'll hang on for us for a second, because Patty Davis, as you know, is in D.C.
KAGAN: OK.
NEVILLE: And I don't know, Patty, if the picture is as exciting as it is there, because folks are waiting for the Reagan National Airport to reopen. And, Patty, when is that going to happen? We need to know.
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's about 7:00 a.m. tomorrow when they're talking about opening Reagan National up again. I can say not so much excited as I look to describe passengers here who have been stranded all night, but frustrated. In fact, some of them had to sleep on some of the heat grates inside the airport overnight. Reagan National Airport did, though, give them blankets, so some comfort. Now, we've also got, you know, Greyhound buses all across the East Coast canceled. We've got east of Pittsburgh, also as far north as Buffalo and then all the way down to North Carolina Greyhound buses not running.
Now here is why. Let's check out this snow drift here at Reagan National Airport. If I went all the way down the top of this snow drift -- you can see it's at my knees -- if I was up there, it would be the top of my legs. So, you can see the kind of snow that people here in Washington, D.C. are having to deal with.
A festive atmosphere in Dupont Circle this afternoon. It's hard to get around by car. People are still trying to dig their cars out. But people are on foot, enjoying the snow. Good things happen during Presidents' Day weekend. Today is a federal holiday. Many of these people are not working today for the federal government here in Washington, D.C. That gives people an extra day to dig out, and also road crews and airport crews an extra day to get things running again -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: That's right. Patty Davis, thank you so much.
And, Daryn Kagan, are you still there?
KAGAN: I still am, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Yes, what happened to your fancy custom-made boots you had on earlier?
KAGAN: Oh, they're in the snow. They're not fancy and they're not custom.
Hey, just a couple of more things I want to get in here, and a little serious though. The cost of dealing with all this, New York City Mayor Bloomberg saying earlier today a simple formula, $1 million per inch.
NEVILLE: Oh, my goodness!
KAGAN: So, if you're around 20 inches, you're talking about $20 million for a city that's already strapped.
And if I could show you just one more thing. Whoa! Hold on. In case you are feeling sorry for me that I'm cold out here, take a look at these statues in Central Park. They are naked. So, they are colder than I am.
NEVILLE: Yes, I think so, Daryn.
KAGAN: So, I'm doing OK.
NEVILLE: All right.
KAGAN: OK.
NEVILLE: Daryn Kagan, nice to see you, D.K. OK, thanks for filling us in from that perspective.
Right now, CNN meteorologist Jacqui Jeras joins us now with a look at how much punch this storm still packs.
And, Jacqui, you know, seriously, we want to know, how long will this last?
(INTERRUPTED BY WEATHER UPDATE)
NEVILLE: Man, Jacqui, all I can say is, yikes!
We have some people in the audience here. You guys are stuck here in Atlanta, right? Where are you trying to go to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The eastern shore of Maryland and Delaware.
NEVILLE: When were you supposed to leave?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday. We were trying get home. We were snowed in. But we're having a good time. We're having a lot more fun than our friends are at home. They're stuck home, bored. We're here in Atlanta having a good time, running out of clothes, but we'll be all right.
NEVILLE: As long as you shower, sir.
Listen, Jacqui, if you are still there, you know, we were wondering here if El Nino has anything to do with this?
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Actually, I'm glad that you asked that, because this storm system originated as more of an El Nino-based storm. It started all the way in the southwestern part of the United States in the middle of last week. It tracked across northern Texas into the Panhandle of Oklahoma, and then redeveloped off the coastline and rode up the shore.
And now, there's been some new research with El Nino this year by some meteorologists, saying that normally we have average precipitation in the northeast in an El Nino type of year. Well, now they're saying that we might actually have above-normal precipitation. It's not that we have a lot of snowstorms. It's just the ones that we get are more typically nor'easter, and those are the ones that dump the heavy, heavy snow like the amount that we've been seeing this weekend and today.
NEVILLE: Now, Jacqui, you know, we keep hearing El Nino, and we've heard about El Nino for a while now. But just really quickly in layman's terms, what is El Nino again? Refresh our memories.
JERAS: In layman's terms, it's abnormal warming of the waters in the Equatorial Pacific, and what that does, it brings the warmer water farther up to the north, and tends to bring more active weather across the southwestern parts of the United States, and then that carries all across the way across the southern tier of the country.
NEVILLE: Man, because it has been creating inclement weather everywhere. Places where it should be hot, it's cold. Places where it should be cold, it's hot.
JERAS: Absolutely. It's been...
NEVILLE: OK.
JERAS: It's supposed to be above normal across much of the north. We really haven't seen that this year. So, this has kind of been an interesting El Nino situation. It's been kind of a moderate El Nino, not the real heavy one that we saw in '97.
NEVILLE: OK, Jacqui, let me interrupt you, if I could, because I need to go live to Baghdad now with some breaking news from Nic Robertson.
Nic -- apparently it seems that Iraq is making some concessions. Is that correct?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, over the weekend, Iraq and U.N. officials have been working out the logistics and timing of U-2 surveillance flights over Iraq. That's a very high-altitude U.S. surveillance aircraft that's flagged for the United Nations inspection mission here on the ground.
And we understand from Iraqi officials that from 11:55 a.m. Iraqi time until 16:15, a quarter after 4:00 in the afternoon here, a total of 4 hours and 20 minutes, that a U-2 surveillance aircraft, according to Iraq's foreign ministry, was flying over Iraq, apparently in support of the U.N. inspection mission.
This has been one of the key things that the U.N. weapons chiefs have been calling for. They've been calling for private interviews with Iraqi scientists, legislation outlawing weapons of mass destruction and these U-2 surveillance flights. And according to Iraq's foreign ministry today, that has now happened. One of these surveillance flights has now taken place -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Nic, do you think this is in direct response to any pressure from the U.S.?
ROBERTSON: It's the view of diplomats here in Baghdad at this time that Iraq is in slightly more of a concession mood, if you will, at this time. And it is certainly the view of Hans Blix, the U.N. weapons chief, and Mohamed ElBaradei, the nuclear weapons chief, that Iraq has possibly been ready to make some more compromises.
Iraq just towards the end of last week had agreed to these U-2 surveillance aircraft flights. There was some talk about the modalities, about some restrictions and conditions applied. Iraq wanted to make sure that it knew in advance when the aircraft were coming, that it knew the call signs of the aircraft to be able to communicate with the pilot.
Iraq had said that it wouldn't be safe for the U-2s to fly up there, because allied aircraft were patrolling the northern and southern no-fly zones, and it has said its anti-aircraft defense facilities might fire on the U-2 aircraft by mistake. That hurdle appeared to have been overcome late last week. Today appears to have been the very first flight of the U-2.
It does appear certainly to Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei that these moves in this direction, in their words, possibly beginning to indicate the beginning of a change of heart by Iraqi authorities here.
NEVILLE: OK, Nic Robertson, thank you so much for that breaking news out of Baghdad.
In the meantime, we're going to go to break, but when we come back, should the White House care what France thinks? We'll tell you the latest about the continental divide over Iraq, and ask: Will the diplomatic standoff stall war with Iraq?
Don't go anywhere. The talk continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, millions of anti-war protesters marched through the streets of Europe and the United States. What are American troops thinking as they watch?
Then, the European Union calls an emergency summit looking for unity over Iraq. We'll size up who is with and who is against the U.S. action in Iraq.
The talk continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
The European Union is holding an emergency summit in Brussels today, but members are anything but united over war with Iraq. In fact, possible conflict has split the summit wide open.
CNN's senior European political correspondent Robin Oakley is there.
And, Robin, if you will, tell us what are the battle lines over Iraq?
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN SR. EUROPOEAN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, the European Union leaders are split every way over the Iraqi crisis.
You've got Gerhard Schroeder, the German chancellor, at one end saying that he wouldn't back military action against Iraq, even if the U.N. authorized it.
You've got Jacques Chirac, the president of France, calling for the inspectors to be allowed longer to do their work, and saying that although he might accept force as a last resort, he won't put a time limit on how long the inspectors should be allowed to go on.
You've got Tony Blair, the U.K. prime minister, supported to a large extent by Spain, Portugal, Italy and Denmark, essentially backing the U.S. and saying that the U.N. authority will be destroyed if there isn't action soon against Saddam Hussein, and saying that Resolution 1441 is sufficient authorization really for that action.
But the problems that the E.U. faces are epitomized by the fact that Jacques Chirac came here tonight and said that there was no need at this stage for the second U.N. Security Council resolution, which Britain and the U.S. are currently trying to draw up. And of course Tony Blair in the U.K. having problems with public opinion, problems with his own party, has virtually promised them a second resolution in the U.N. And there is Jacques Chirac totally opposed to it.
That's the sort of gap that's got to be closed over their dinner tonight, and it's not going to be easy to do -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: And, Robin, can Britain go much further without E.U. support?
OAKLEY: Well, yes, if Tony Blair chooses, and I think his nightmare politically is that if George Bush at some stage loses patience with the United Nations decides that he will go for a unilateral strike against Saddam Hussein, Tony Blair would have to decide at that point whether he wanted to go along with the U.S. or take a huge risk -- go along with the E.U. -- sorry -- or take a huge risk with public opinion in Britain and become a very isolated political leader indeed.
It's going to be very, very hard for him to go it alone on this issue. He really needs support, demonstrated in the United Nations, if he's going to carry support at home -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: And, Robin, as you know, there were many, many thousands of protesters around the world today -- Saturday -- pardon me. I'm asking you, how are those protests, anti-war demonstrations resounding in Brussels?
OAKLEY; Well, they are certainly resounding in Brussels, because the countries like France, Germany, Belgium who have been largely opposed to the U.S. line, feel very much strengthened in taking the line that they do from the sheer numbers who turned out in demonstrations right across Europe. And it's leaders like Tony Blair who are supporting the U.S. who have been isolated on this occasion. The others feel that they are in tune with public opinion, and it's perhaps making them bolder in arguing their case.
But there is a draft -- a set of draft conclusions circulating among the leaders over their dinner tonight. And I think the interesting test will be in terms of how they respond to public opinion, whether they retain in that the words which are currently in the draft about possible use of force, but insisting that war is only a last resort -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK, Robin Oakley, thanks so much for the update.
Will war with Iraq go forward without full European support?
Richard Bey is a radio talk show host and co-host of "The Buzz" on WABC radio. Alan Nathan is host of "The Battle Line," a political talk show on Radio America. And Josefa Salinas is a radio talk show host in Los Angeles.
Welcome to all of you here today.
And, Richard, I'm going to start with you. Do you think these anti-war demonstrations will avert the war with Iraq?
RICHARD BEY, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I don't think they'll avert the war with Iraq, but they are having, I think, some influence in Europe, more so than they are here.
I was out there marching, actually, on Saturday, and it wasn't in support of Saddam Hussein, and the people who were out there were not in support of Saddam Hussein. Most of the people were carrying signs, asking for more time for weapons inspections.
NEVILLE: Hey, Richard, why do you feel the need to specify that you guys weren't out there in support of Saddam Hussein?
BEY: Because every day we are attacked by the conservative media matrix in this country as being communist, as being Saddam Hussein supporters, as being America haters. I was out there with an American flag, carried it for three-and-a-half hours in the course of that demonstration. Nobody came up to me and said, how can you hold that flag? In fact, I saw many other American flags amongst the protesters as well.
NEVILLE: Alan, of course you know the administration is planning benchmarks in the next two weeks as tests to see how much Iraq is willing to disarm. Do you think this is a good idea, or is this stacking deck?
ALAN NATHAN, RADIO AMERICA: Well, if he's to disarm, he should disarm. I mean, at one point or another, it gets a little laughable as to how much longer we want to give this man latitude. Look, I'm a centrist. I hate war. I was against the Vietnam War, still proud to have been so. But if we don't have some point of finality when it comes to last chances, well then by default, we have replaced those last chances with the words, "never ending."
And at one point or another, we have to understand, you know, behavioral reinforcement doesn't cease to exist at anybody's convenience. These nations came on board with Resolution 1441 that said, comply or else.
Now, the French wish to turn their back away from that, as well as some peace protesters, and we have to pay a price for that.
NEVILLE: Josefa, speaking of the peace protesters, do you think the White House is paying, or should pay close attention to public opinion?
JOSEFA SALINAS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I think that because we live in the United States, public opinion is always something that has to be considered, because of the type of country that we live in. But ultimately, the government has a lot more information than what we have. It's necessary for them to assess that information, assess whether or not they should move forward, and then act on our best interest. That's why we put them in office.
NEVILLE: OK, we have to take a break right now.
Coming up next, some of the largest anti-war demonstrations took place in London this weekend. Could British Prime Minister Tony Blair's government be in trouble?
Peace activist Bianca Jagger joins us after this break. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Millions of protesters around the world took their anti-war messages to the streets over the weekend, and one of the largest demonstrations was in London, where some 750,000 people are estimated to have turned out to protest possible war with Iraq.
And leading that effort was human rights activist, Bianca Jagger, who joins us now from London.
And, Bianca, do you get the impression that Tony Blair is listening?
BIANCA JAGGER, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, if Prime Minister Blair doesn't listen to two million people, then he will be in real trouble. What we were trying to say to him was that he needs to listen to the voices of reason, because people feel here, although we all agree that Saddam Hussein needs to be disarmed and we agree as well that his record -- his human rights record is appalling, we feel that the war, instead of bringing peace and security, will create chaos in the world and will risk of unleashing a war on civilization. And I think that Prime Minister Blair listens to democracy, this country is a democracy, and there is something called "checks and balances," and he needs to listen to his electorate.
NEVILLE: Do you get the sense that the prime minister's government is in jeopardy?
JAGGER: I think very much so. I think at the moment, if you listen to those who are speaking in support of Prime Minister Blair are more the conservatives than the Labor Party. So, this is a moment of crisis for the government of Prime Minister Blair, and I think that that will send a message as well to President Bush. The question for him at this moment is: Will he choose to listen to President Bush or will he choose to listen to the British people in this country?
NEVILLE: , So if war is not the answer, then what -- how do you handle Saddam Hussein?
JAGGER: I think that we need to pursue the proposals that the French government and the German government are making, that we need to be strong, and we need to give more support to the weapons inspectors, more time. And let's remember that, you know, they keep bringing up the example of South Africa. It took two years to disarm South Africa. They have only been back, the weapons inspectors, for the last two months. I think that they are making progress. I think that the Iraqis have understood.
It's been good that the United States is being firm, and Prime Minister Blair has been firm in his message, but we must not launch a war that will leave a trail of blood, whereas according to the U.N. in their report in December, they say that the likely scenario of a war will be half-a-million people that will be left as casualties, up to two million people who will be left refugees and displaced, and more than five million people in dire conditions.
I was there myself very recently, and I saw the terrible effects of the -- you know, of the two wars and the sanctions. So, the people of Iraq are so dependent upon the government, 60 million people receive food every month from the government. So, we need to find a way...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: So, what do you think about, though, that -- Bianca, what do you think about the idea that Saddam Hussein could possibly starve people in the south to create a human rights disaster?
BIANCA: No, I don't think so. I think that France and Germany at the moment need to put pressure on Saddam Hussein to begin a process of democratization, to open the country so that there are parliamentary elections so that Saddam Hussein will have participation of all of the political faction, including the Kurds and the Shiites, that they allow human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, to come into the country.
And we need to use this moment when countries such as France and Germany are opposing the policies of the United States and Great Britain to be able to tell Saddam Hussein, yes, we will appose the war, but you need to make certain concessions that will improve the life of people in Iraq, as well as disarming.
NEVILLE: OK, Bianca Jagger, thank you very much for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE today.
We definitely want to hear what our panel has to say about Ms. Jagger's remarks after this break.
And later this hour, we're going to find out how those peace demonstrations affect U.S. military troops gearing up for action in Iraq.
And next, hold on to your duct tape. Maybe you didn’t need so much of that stuff after all. We'll update the terror alert right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. Before the break, we were talking to Bianca Jagger out of London, human rights activist. And Richard and Alan, Josefa, I know you were all listening to Bianca's remarks, starting with Josefa.
JOSEFA SALINAS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, it was interesting. And I sympathize with everyone who was out protesting the war over the weekend. But I have to put this question to them: In basic human nature, if I tell you I'm coming over to your house on Thursday at 4:00 to look for something that I think you have, and you don't want me to find it, is it going to be there when I come over? So I mean I think you can take that to Iraq and say, is it really going to be there? Is he going to let US find it?
So I think there are stricter measures that are necessary. And I don't think -- and I haven't heard anyone in all of these war protests give any solutions to what to do about Iraq. They just want to say don't go in.
RICHARD BEY, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That's not true. And if I came to your house and I put up cameras inside your house every moment of the day, and I had people stationed in your house who could run into any room of that house of any moment, and I had planes flying over your house so I could see when you came and when you left the house, then you might have an analogy. But that's not necessarily an analogy.
We have had weapons inspections that have found things in the past and have destroyed those things. The argument here is this: What is the urgency for war at this time? And if our stated goal is to disarm Saddam Hussein, to make the Iraqi regime impotent and incapable of harming around the world with weapons of mass destruction, then weapons inspections, heightened weapons inspections and, yes, even United Nations blue helmet occupation, those things can work.
If the goal is another goal -- and I think there is another goal here -- and it's one that we don't discuss, which is a goal that has been created by a group of neo conservatives who see regime change in Iraq has something that will help them reshape the Middle East as you would play a game of chess, now that...
NEVILLE: Well let me -- I'm sorry Richard. Let me let Alan jump in on that particular point.
ALAN NATHAN, RADIO AMERICA: That regime change was originally authored by the Clinton administration. And at that time, a lot of the very same slow-footed Democrats who feel that we're rushing to war were then, of course, very supportive of said regime change.
Look, the problem I have with the war protesters these days is the following. Their only protesting war that occurs between countries. But when it comes to individual governments waging war against their own people, these same protesters are not to be found. And I think that's unconscionable. I think that we have to remember that if fewer lives will be lost by an outside force doing something that's happening at the authorship of an inside force, then it's worth the endeavor. Right now, tens of thousands of people are on record as having been killed at the hands of Saddam Hussein. If we can somehow curtail that, what's wrong with it? You know, the French at the time, during World War II, knew in advance that there would be some collateral deaths against their citizens, but they thought it was worthwhile in exchange for the allied forces to come and return to them their liberty.
BEY: I know, but the hypocrisy of the argument...
NEVILLE: I'm sorry, Richard, I have to move on.
BEY: Wait. The hypocrisy of this argument is that the United States supported Iraq during that point in time.
NEVILLE: Richard Bey, Alan Nathan and Josefa Salinas, thank you so much for joining us here today. Sorry, Richard. I just ran out of time. I'll get you back again.
OK. Now we know last week duct tape was at a premium. And there was a kind of collective tension in the air, as the government raised the terror alert from yellow to orange. And we were all told to prepare. Well now, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says that is subject to change.
Joining us is CNN national correspondent Bob Franken. And, Bob, if you can just tell us what's going on and why the talk of a lower threat level now.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, there are other uses for duct tape, so maybe you didn't purchase it in vain.
NEVILLE: Thank goodness for that, huh?
FRANKEN: Just ask any camera person. But the other part of this is that there is now some criticism that you have some power tripping, bureaucrats who decided to go overboard a little bit. Or, more fairly, perhaps some people who really don't know what to expect and they see some signs.
They factored into that that it was the end of the Hajj. And that of course is a time when something might have been expected to happen. So they were much more sensitive for some other signs. In addition to which, some of the people who they are interrogating are very good at disinformation. And the fact of the matter is, is that critics are saying they weren't careful enough with the intelligence and overreacted.
In fairness, the government and the intelligence community says this is imprecise, but that that's second-guessing. And that it's better to be over prepared than under prepared. NEVILLE: Now I know Ridge is mentioning the possibility of some sort of regional alert. If you could tell us a little bit about that and how it works.
FRANKEN: Well, so far, the regions that they normally talk about is the most desirable targets for terrorists. Of course, New York and Washington. That's partially based on the fact that they like to attack areas that they've attacked before. But what the homeland security secretary is talking about now is coming up with more precise alerts, so an entire country is not scared to death when there is actually a threat or a perceived threat against another area.
For instance, if the perceived threat is -- and this is entirely hypothetical -- against, say, Chicago, then the alert would be centered there and they would be more precise. The problem is, is that their intelligence is not that good, still not that good, that they are able to be that precise. They have to be much more broad in the strokes that they brush.
NEVILLE: Right. OK. Bob Franken, thank you so much for joining us today.
And in the meantime, tens of thousands of American troops are in the Gulf region. Can they afford to wait while diplomats debate war? Retired Major General Don Shepperd joins us next. And we're going to find out how all those the anti-war demonstrations are affecting the troops' morale after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: While the European Union debates unity over Iraq, the United States remains committed to disarmament and removing Iraqi president Saddam Hussein from power. Now U.S. troops have been arriving in the Middle East by the tens of thousands.
With us today is CNN military analyst, retired Major General Don Shepperd. And, General, you know with so much diplomatic wrangling going on, if you will, how long can the U.S. keep more than 150,000 troops in the region operational?
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), USAF: Arthel, we can stay there as long as necessary. We've been in Korea 50 years. We've been in Europe since World War II. So we can stay.
There's a couple of things about it, though. One of them is it's very, very expensive to do what we're doing. So it's not likely that we will sit there and do nothing. And the other thing is that the troops cannot stay up on the point forever. So when you leave those troops there, and if you left them, for instance, until the fall or middle of next year, it would be a problem. You'd have to rotate the troops out and that would make it even more expensive.
NEVILLE: And I want to get to a couple of points here, so I'm going to move on now. I know you were a fighter pilot during the Vietnam War. And so I want to ask you, from that perspective, how do those anti-war demonstrations affect troop morale?
SHEPPERD: Yes, and the answer may surprise you. And the answer is not at all. You are very, very busy. You are very busy getting ready, trying to help your buddies, trying to keep yourself and your equipment up over there in a really rough atmosphere there in the desert.
I was in Vietnam during the height of the war protests and they were almost not even an element of discussion. There is one difference between today and those days, and that is that people are much better performed and you do get to see TV and you do get feedback, whereas in those days our feedback was very, very late. We got it from magazines and that type of thing.
But this won't affect the morale of the troops. They are ready to do what they are told when they're told, and they are well trained. So we'll be ready.
NEVILLE: And speaking of the of the troops having access to TV, I mean it brings me to my next point. TV, newspapers, magazines, et cetera, there's a lot of talk about military strategy. This makes a lot of Americans nervous that it's too much information. Obviously the people in charge know how much to share with the public.
SHEPPERD: Yes. Some of it is just blinding flashes of the obvious. Others are very closely held and secret plans. For instance, we military analysts that do this on TV are not given classified information. We know generally how to protect information because of our years in the military, so it's probably a good way to spread the word.
And we're very, very careful. CNN has been extremely careful. They've asked me many times, as well as the other military analysts, is it -- should we be careful about putting this on? What you don't want to reveal is where you are going to attack and when you are going to attack. What you are going to do is almost obvious to an enemy anywhere. So we're very, very careful about that, and I think we strike a good balance.
NEVILLE: Thank you. Thank you. General, also, clearly this time the U.S. and its allies will be going after Saddam Hussein. What will be different this time around?
SHEPPERD: A great deal will be different this time. The war will likely start with a massive air campaign that's at the same time restrained. You are not going to see us going in there trying to destroy infrastructure that has to be rebuilt or create a humanitarian crisis.
We are going after leadership targets, air defense targets, weapons of mass destruction, command and control facilities. But you're going to see an almost simultaneous movement of ground forces this time because we can. The Iraqi army is not a raid (ph) in Kuwait or just across the border from us. They are basically back in the Baghdad area, and so the arrangement of forces is much different. It allows us to move much more quickly and simultaneously on the ground and in the air than during the Gulf War.
NEVILLE: But apparently Saddam Hussein is banking on the U.S. troops and allied troops to go into Baghdad eventually and have the ground warfare, if you will, with their troops there, circled around Baghdad. As you know, that's their whole strategy, to circle around the capital.
SHEPPERD: Of course. It's our worst nightmare to go in there and have to fight house to house and see destruction of downtown Baghdad on television. He knows that. He probably will try to draw us into it.
I fully suspect that both sides will have surprises for each other. On the other hand, the outcome of this is not in doubt. If we go in militarily, Saddam is going out, Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK. General Shepperd, thank you very much for joining us today.
SHEPPERD: Pleasure.
NEVILLE: And coming up next; panic and death inside a Chicago nightclub, where hundreds of patrons stampeded and crushed each other against locked doors. We'll have a live report after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. At least 21 people are dead, scores of others recovering after patrons inside a Chicago nightclub panicked and crushed each other. CNN's Keith Oppenheim is at the scene with details. And Keith, folks in the audience here want to know how did this happen.
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a really terrible incident that appears to have happened by not many ways out. But that's what investigators are trying to find. Behind me you can see the building. It says "Epitome" on it. that's the name of the restaurant on the first floor.
On the second floor is the nightclub called E2. And that's where the trouble started around 2:00 in the morning. And investigators are trying to find out if the patrons had or didn't have various ways outside.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These were Chicagoans who went to a nightclub who were out to have a good time. It's as simple as that. And they lost their lives tragically. And what we have to do, as the police department, is find out why.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): Why a nightclub became the scene of a stampede is a question that's just beginning to be answered. Witnesses say the stampede began when security guards used pepper spray or mace to break up a fight between female patrons. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smaller women were getting pushed and snapped on because of the bigger guys were really trying to make headway to get out the door. But once they came through the main entrance they just kind of like got stuck.
OPPENHEIM: Many of the victims were trampled as people rushed for the exits. But a rear door was chained shut and eventually firefighters cut it open. But that came too late. When the melee was underway, there was only one way down from the upstairs of the club, and officials say trampled bodies had to be pulled from the stairwell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had several people that were in cardiac arrest that were in traumatic asphyxiation from being crushed underneath the piles of people trying to get out of this building.
OPPENHEIM: There are conflicting reports about how many people were in the club. But witnesses say it was very crowded and may have been beyond capacity. Police say the area is being treated as a crime scene.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OPPENHEIM: Investigators are also interviewing the owners of the nightclub, they are talking to security staff. They will be reviewing videotape that was shot inside the nightclub. They also say that a number of other doors, not just the back door with the chain on it, but a number of other ones were either blocked or locked. Arthel, back to you.
NEVILLE: All right. Keith Oppenheim, we'll check in with you again as this investigation will continue. Thanks so much for joining us here today.
And coming up next, the "Question of the Day." How would you describe the blizzard? Beauty or beast? Is it your idea of winter woes or a winter wonderland? Give me a call or e-mail me and I'll talk to you after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right. Look at that. It's time for our "Question of the Day." It's all about the blizzard. What is it to you, a winter woe or a winter wonderland?
I have time for a couple of e-mails right now. Let's take a look. Jen in Pennsylvania: "It's a winter wonderland her in Pittsburgh. All I can say is no school tomorrow." All right, Jen.
And Omar in Virginia: "Don't get me wrong, the snow is beautiful. But I just can't stand the lack of mobility afforded by 22 inches of snow."
All right, Omar. Thanks for writing in. And we're out of time here. For TALKBACK LIVE, I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be back again tomorrow, 3:00 Eastern, 12:00 Pacific, with more TALKBACK LIVE. But don't go anywhere, because Judy Woodruff is next with "INSIDE POLITICS".
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