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American Morning
Will Growing Peace Demonstrations Make Any Difference?
Aired February 18, 2003 - 07:38 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to turn our attention now to the debate over war in Iraq. As the debate rages about whether we, in fact, will end up in a military action against Iraq, will the growing size and intensity of peace demonstrations make any difference at all?
Anti-war protesters took to the streets in cities all over the world last weekend. Police reported at least 100,000 in New York and San Francisco, 30,000 in Los Angeles, one million in Rome, three quarters of a million in London, 660,000 in Madrid and 300,000 to 500,000 in Berlin.
Joining us now to debate the impact of these demonstrations, former RNC Communications Director Cliff May and Democratic consultant Victor Kamber.
Good morning, gentlemen.
Nice to have both of you with us this morning.
VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning.
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Cliff, what kind of a P.R. nightmare is this for the administration, even as National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice says they encourage this kind of debate? MAY: Well, look, the P.R. aspect of it is one thing. But what's really distressing and ironic, and I want to focus on it for a second, is the fact that these demonstrations ironically make war more likely, not less likely. If Saddam Hussein were hearing from people around the world that he has to give up his weapons of mass destruction and everybody was insisting upon it, maybe he would actually think about doing it.
But he is doing exactly what he hoped to do, dividing the West and getting people to come out and defend him. All those hundreds of thousands of people, did one of them, one of them have a sign that said Saddam Hussein give up your anthrax, give up your smallpox, give up your V.X. gas and your sarin? Not one. It is just awful.
Now this is one...
ZAHN: But, but, wait, Cliff. You're interpreting this through the prism of how Saddam Hussein would view it. MAY: Yes.
ZAHN: And obviously he is getting some mileage out of this. But from the administration's point of view, this has to have some impact on their strategy, doesn't it, clearly when polls show that the majority of Americans would support military action against Iraq with U.N. approval? MAY: And we can, look, and we cannot allow polls in Europe to decide whether or not we have the right to defend ourselves from Saddam Hussein and whether or not we're going to allow him to develop weapons of mass destruction that he will give to terrorists. I'd like somebody to tell me why Saddam Hussein would not give anthrax or smallpox or V.X. gas to terrorists to use against us. What would possibly inhibit him from doing that?
These people never marched against Saddam Hussein's oppression of the Kurds or the Shiites or the Marsh (ph) Arabs. They never got out there for that, but they're out there defending this terrible fascist dictator. This is like all the protests we had against the U.S. deploying cruise missiles...
ZAHN: All right... MAY: ... against, for a nuclear freeze. Look, if you had had a...
ZAHN: Hang on... MAY: In 19, in the 1930s...
ZAHN: In... MAY: In the 1930s you could have gotten rallies just like this to protect Hitler, unfortunately.
KAMBER: Baloney.
ZAHN: All right, Victor is rolling his eyes... MAY: No, not baloney.
ZAHN: ... when you said these people were defending a fascist dictator. Victor? MAY: Do they have one sign, Victor, saying...
KAMBER: He's a Third World bully. The fact that Cliff is even assigning him any kind of largesse in this whole effort -- I mean I think what's missing here is that there are people in this world truly concerned about the United States coming in preemptively striking a country. We have no proof yet that there are these weapons of mass destruction by the president's own definition. We have... MAY: Hans Blix says they have not given up anything, Vic.
KAMBER: We have... MAY: They have not given up any of the weapons they had in '98.
KAMBER: We have the flyovers taking place right now. The delay has actually made the system work. If there are these weapons uncovered, if there are the egregious kinds of things that we've demanded, then I think it calls for a united world front against Saddam Hussein.
ZAHN: Are you troubled... MAY: Victor, it's no different than other Third World...
ZAHN: Victor, are you troubled by any of the information that Secretary of State Powell provided about the al-Samoud missiles? MAY: The nerve gas.
KAMBER: I am convinced... ZAHN: The satellite photos showing what he believed was movement of stuff the Iraqis weren't supposed to have?
KAMBER: I am convinced that Secretary Powell is articulate. I probably will accredit him with believing what he said. I saw nothing that was new or different than what we had before, nothing that was convincing enough for us to go to war, to kill our own people and to kill innocent people over there. MAY: Vic, what you forget...
KAMBER: I mean there's just no... MAY: Vic, what you...
KAMBER: I mean the whole idea, we have not, we have not given any credence to the fact as of this date there is no link between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, and he is no different, I'll say this again, I've said it on this show before, than five, six, seven other despots out there. And we're not going to war with those despots. MAY: Vic, what you haven't adjusted to is the reality of the 21st century. We know...
KAMBER: I'm very much... MAY: We know that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.
KAMBER: Who knows? MAY: No, no. Hans Blix has said so. We know what he had in 1998. He has not accounted for them. Hans Blix said as clearly as a U.N. bureaucrat knows how he has not accounted for the weapons he had in 1998. Now if you think...
KAMBER: And we cannot find them. MAY: Of course not.
KAMBER: They could have been... MAY: No, we can't find them? Let me tell you...
KAMBER: They could have been... MAY: ... the 101st Airborne can find them.
KAMBER: They could have been dismantled. MAY: Hans Blix can find them.
KAMBER: They could have been dismantled. They could have been destroyed. They could have been done away with. MAY: What, with no -- do you think that Saddam Hussein...
KAMBER: We have no... MAY: ... went and destroyed weapons of mass destruction without any proof? You think Saddam Hussein doesn't want these weapons? Vic, you know nothing about Saddam Hussein if you think that he went and destroyed his anthrax, his botulism...
KAMBER: All, I... MAY: ... his smallpox...
KAMBER: Cliff... MAY: ... and didn't tell anybody about it.
KAMBER: Cliff... MAY: And there's no proof.
ZAHN: All right, Victor gets the last word here.
KAMBER: We're talking about, I say this every time, war and death. MAY: We've been at war since 1991.
KAMBER: And it seems to me that before we kill American lives, innocent American lives or innocent Iraqi lives, we need the proof and we need the world with us and we don't have it. MAY: We have the people of Iraq with us. They want to be liberated by us. And to defend Saddam Hussein's oppression of the Iraqi people is just outrageous.
KAMBER: There is no sign that anyone in Iraq except a few dissidents who'd like to be king themselves... MAY: A few dissidents?
KAMBER: ... want United States interference.
ZAHN: All right, gentlemen... MAY: There's no sign because the oppression succeeds.
ZAHN: We've got to leave it there this morning.
Sorry to have to cut both of you off, but we need to move on.
Vic Kamber, Cliff May, as always, good to have both of you on the air with us. MAY: Thank you, Paula.
KAMBER: Thank you, Paula.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 18, 2003 - 07:38 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to turn our attention now to the debate over war in Iraq. As the debate rages about whether we, in fact, will end up in a military action against Iraq, will the growing size and intensity of peace demonstrations make any difference at all?
Anti-war protesters took to the streets in cities all over the world last weekend. Police reported at least 100,000 in New York and San Francisco, 30,000 in Los Angeles, one million in Rome, three quarters of a million in London, 660,000 in Madrid and 300,000 to 500,000 in Berlin.
Joining us now to debate the impact of these demonstrations, former RNC Communications Director Cliff May and Democratic consultant Victor Kamber.
Good morning, gentlemen.
Nice to have both of you with us this morning.
VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning.
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Cliff, what kind of a P.R. nightmare is this for the administration, even as National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice says they encourage this kind of debate? MAY: Well, look, the P.R. aspect of it is one thing. But what's really distressing and ironic, and I want to focus on it for a second, is the fact that these demonstrations ironically make war more likely, not less likely. If Saddam Hussein were hearing from people around the world that he has to give up his weapons of mass destruction and everybody was insisting upon it, maybe he would actually think about doing it.
But he is doing exactly what he hoped to do, dividing the West and getting people to come out and defend him. All those hundreds of thousands of people, did one of them, one of them have a sign that said Saddam Hussein give up your anthrax, give up your smallpox, give up your V.X. gas and your sarin? Not one. It is just awful.
Now this is one...
ZAHN: But, but, wait, Cliff. You're interpreting this through the prism of how Saddam Hussein would view it. MAY: Yes.
ZAHN: And obviously he is getting some mileage out of this. But from the administration's point of view, this has to have some impact on their strategy, doesn't it, clearly when polls show that the majority of Americans would support military action against Iraq with U.N. approval? MAY: And we can, look, and we cannot allow polls in Europe to decide whether or not we have the right to defend ourselves from Saddam Hussein and whether or not we're going to allow him to develop weapons of mass destruction that he will give to terrorists. I'd like somebody to tell me why Saddam Hussein would not give anthrax or smallpox or V.X. gas to terrorists to use against us. What would possibly inhibit him from doing that?
These people never marched against Saddam Hussein's oppression of the Kurds or the Shiites or the Marsh (ph) Arabs. They never got out there for that, but they're out there defending this terrible fascist dictator. This is like all the protests we had against the U.S. deploying cruise missiles...
ZAHN: All right... MAY: ... against, for a nuclear freeze. Look, if you had had a...
ZAHN: Hang on... MAY: In 19, in the 1930s...
ZAHN: In... MAY: In the 1930s you could have gotten rallies just like this to protect Hitler, unfortunately.
KAMBER: Baloney.
ZAHN: All right, Victor is rolling his eyes... MAY: No, not baloney.
ZAHN: ... when you said these people were defending a fascist dictator. Victor? MAY: Do they have one sign, Victor, saying...
KAMBER: He's a Third World bully. The fact that Cliff is even assigning him any kind of largesse in this whole effort -- I mean I think what's missing here is that there are people in this world truly concerned about the United States coming in preemptively striking a country. We have no proof yet that there are these weapons of mass destruction by the president's own definition. We have... MAY: Hans Blix says they have not given up anything, Vic.
KAMBER: We have... MAY: They have not given up any of the weapons they had in '98.
KAMBER: We have the flyovers taking place right now. The delay has actually made the system work. If there are these weapons uncovered, if there are the egregious kinds of things that we've demanded, then I think it calls for a united world front against Saddam Hussein.
ZAHN: Are you troubled... MAY: Victor, it's no different than other Third World...
ZAHN: Victor, are you troubled by any of the information that Secretary of State Powell provided about the al-Samoud missiles? MAY: The nerve gas.
KAMBER: I am convinced... ZAHN: The satellite photos showing what he believed was movement of stuff the Iraqis weren't supposed to have?
KAMBER: I am convinced that Secretary Powell is articulate. I probably will accredit him with believing what he said. I saw nothing that was new or different than what we had before, nothing that was convincing enough for us to go to war, to kill our own people and to kill innocent people over there. MAY: Vic, what you forget...
KAMBER: I mean there's just no... MAY: Vic, what you...
KAMBER: I mean the whole idea, we have not, we have not given any credence to the fact as of this date there is no link between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, and he is no different, I'll say this again, I've said it on this show before, than five, six, seven other despots out there. And we're not going to war with those despots. MAY: Vic, what you haven't adjusted to is the reality of the 21st century. We know...
KAMBER: I'm very much... MAY: We know that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.
KAMBER: Who knows? MAY: No, no. Hans Blix has said so. We know what he had in 1998. He has not accounted for them. Hans Blix said as clearly as a U.N. bureaucrat knows how he has not accounted for the weapons he had in 1998. Now if you think...
KAMBER: And we cannot find them. MAY: Of course not.
KAMBER: They could have been... MAY: No, we can't find them? Let me tell you...
KAMBER: They could have been... MAY: ... the 101st Airborne can find them.
KAMBER: They could have been dismantled. MAY: Hans Blix can find them.
KAMBER: They could have been dismantled. They could have been destroyed. They could have been done away with. MAY: What, with no -- do you think that Saddam Hussein...
KAMBER: We have no... MAY: ... went and destroyed weapons of mass destruction without any proof? You think Saddam Hussein doesn't want these weapons? Vic, you know nothing about Saddam Hussein if you think that he went and destroyed his anthrax, his botulism...
KAMBER: All, I... MAY: ... his smallpox...
KAMBER: Cliff... MAY: ... and didn't tell anybody about it.
KAMBER: Cliff... MAY: And there's no proof.
ZAHN: All right, Victor gets the last word here.
KAMBER: We're talking about, I say this every time, war and death. MAY: We've been at war since 1991.
KAMBER: And it seems to me that before we kill American lives, innocent American lives or innocent Iraqi lives, we need the proof and we need the world with us and we don't have it. MAY: We have the people of Iraq with us. They want to be liberated by us. And to defend Saddam Hussein's oppression of the Iraqi people is just outrageous.
KAMBER: There is no sign that anyone in Iraq except a few dissidents who'd like to be king themselves... MAY: A few dissidents?
KAMBER: ... want United States interference.
ZAHN: All right, gentlemen... MAY: There's no sign because the oppression succeeds.
ZAHN: We've got to leave it there this morning.
Sorry to have to cut both of you off, but we need to move on.
Vic Kamber, Cliff May, as always, good to have both of you on the air with us. MAY: Thank you, Paula.
KAMBER: Thank you, Paula.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
