|
CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Is Ephedrine Safe? Is Increasing Focus on Scott Peterson Fair?
Aired February 19, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I am Arthel Neville.
Now, earlier this month, a code orange alert caused a nationwide run on duct tape and plastic sheeting. Well, today the government is releasing television and print ads designed to let us know exactly what to do to prepare for a terrorist attack.
The campaign is called "Preparing makes sense, get ready now," and the message from Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge is better safe than sorry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: The threat of terrorism forces us to make a choice. We can be afraid, or we can be ready. And today America's families declare, We will not be afraid, and we will be ready.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Well, we are going to look at one of the new ads in just a second. But first, let's meet our guest. Steven Kuhr is senior vice president of the security firm Kroll Inc. He leads their emergency management group, and clinical psychologist Robert Butterworth, who specializes in trauma. We want to welcome both of you.
And Steven, I start with you. So Tom Ridge says, Look, every American should have an emergency kit. Will it do any good in the event of an attack?
STEVEN KUHR, KROLL INC.: First I'd like to comment on the secretary's demeanor today. It was one of assuredness. He was calm. It's the type of demeanor that we need from our leaders in this time of crisis, and to answer your question direct, Arthel, yes, it is important. But this is not something new. We've been talking to the American public for years about having a disaster kit. Be it a hurricane, a tornado or an earthquake, we need to be self-sustained in our homes and in our businesses for 72 hours. That 72-hour time frame will give us an opportunity to take care of our families, take care of individuals that we work with and wait for the support from our government officials. NEVILLE: Now, Dr. Butterworth, Steven just made note of Ridge's demeanor this morning during the press conference. Is that what Americans needed, more reassurance from Ridge?
DR. ROBERT BUTTERWORTH, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, Arthel. We're really in a new reality. It's right in a sense that we have had to deal with disasters before, but they were somewhat identifiable. You know, earthquakes out here and tornadoes and hurricanes. The problem with this threat is that there are so many ambiguous kinds of things. It could be anthrax. It could be a dirty nuclear bomb. It could be a plane, it could be a disaster with a building coming down, and that's why we saw this craziness with duct tape because people were, by their behavior, trying to say, Listen, we want to do something but we don't know what to do, but we -- the duct tape was almost their security blanket because they were panicking, and not knowing what to do.
NEVILLE: Well, I want to take a look right now at the new PSA from the government, and we can talk about it after we run it. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a lot of real simple things that people can do to protect themselves and their families.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Making sure you have a communications plan with your family is important.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Store water and nonperishable foods for at least three days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have a flashlight, extra batteries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also having prescription drugs available.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're talking the simple necessities of life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're asking America to be ready, and we will be ready.
ANNOUNCER: Learn to protect yourself and your family at ready.gov or call for a free brochure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: So, Dr. Butterworth, does this sort of PSA make people feel more prepared or paranoid?
BUTTERWORTH: Well, paranoia is when something happens and you don't know what to do. They're right in that PSA. They are saying, get prepared internally. Have first aid. Have enough food and water to survive for a few days. Get prepared externally. Have contact numbers. Talk to your neighbors. That helps with panic. When the bad thing happens, if we don't know what to do, we get anxious during the time, and if we don't know what to do and we hear about it with these alerts, we get anxious before.
NEVILLE: OK. Helene (ph) from Alabama, what do you say?
HELENE: I think the alerts are a very good thing, because if the government knew something, said nothing, can you imagine the outcry afterwards? If they know nothing specific, if they just tell us something in general, I think it's a great help.
NEVILLE: OK, thank you. And Steven, the homeland security director also said to have basically two emergency kits. One to keep at home and one to be able to go, if you need to leave your home.
KUHR: I think it's a smart idea. My family and I have a plan, should there be a crisis in our community. And I should tell you our plan was based more on a hurricane threat because we live in coastal New York, that we would meet in a rural environment somewhere outside the city.
If that happens, you need to have a kit that has capabilities in it such as food and water for our children, and for the family to sustain for that 72-hour period. With today's threat, we can certainly use that kit for that as well.
NEVILLE: OK. I have Robert (ph) from Louisiana.
ROBERT: I think that there are so many different things that could happen, so many different ways that terrorists could attack that it's impossible to be prepared for all of them.
KUHR: Arthel?
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
KUHR: Yes, I think he's exactly right. And that speaks to the -- to why we should have been talking about this for years. FEMA should have been putting out these press releases, these announcements about family preparedness for years. To their credit, the Washington, D.C. government is currently engaged in a very, very large scale citizen preparedness effort, and they are training and preparing citizens throughout the community.
We should be doing that in all our cities. But, again, the preparedness that we're taking today for our -- for terrorism preparedness is such that we can be taking for all sorts of disasters. If we can't leave our house for 72 hours because there is a dust cloud from, let's say a collapsed high rise building, or because there's two feet of snow on your lawn and you can't dig your car out, it's the same thing. We have to be prepared at home. We have to approach this with a level of -- with a level of practicality.
NEVILLE: Dr. Butterworth, how do we talk to this -- address this problem or preparedness with children? I mean, because if adults get nervous or anxious, imagine what this does to children.
BUTTERWORTH: Yes, and I think we really need to start focusing on our kids. Not just us as parents, but teachers in the classroom, where kids spend a lot of time. We know one thing from research on natural disasters, and that is when a lot of kids are anxious, they don't talk about it. They keep it inside. But when you talk to them and you ask them, are you worried? Are there things that you are afraid of, either by drawing or by talking, they say yes. So just because your kids are coming home and they are going through the routine, and they are not talking about it, that doesn't mean they are not thinking about it.
KUHR: We have an obligation in our communities to prepare not only for the physical aspects of the disaster, but for the mental health aspects of the disaster. I agree, but that's not the type of thing that we deal with at home, not unless we have the information that we can give your children. So I would agree with the doctor that we need to take those steps, but it's incumbent upon our local emergency management agencies, our health care and mental health practitioners at the local level to arm us with the information, as family, as civil leaders, to provide to our communities.
NEVILLE: OK. Let's see what Jan (ph) is thinking.
JAN: Well, I agree with what Steve said, and I think most Americans and Canadians -- we live in Canada -- on the West Coast, we worry about the big earthquake coming. But it could be something as simple as a blowout in the local power system, you know, and you just need to be smart. You need to have some water stored up, and have some batteries on hand, and some food and the basic necessities, just like they said. And I think most people, if they thought about it, would just do that automatically.
NEVILLE: And then they wouldn't get as nervous about it, right? OK, Jan, thank you very much.
I do have to take a break right now. Steven Kuhr, Robert Butterworth, thank you so much for being with us today.
And now I want to know if you are doing anything to prepare for a terrorist attack. It's the question of the day. You can give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN, or e-mail me at TALKBACK@CNN.COM.
Later this hour -- what do you think about the possibility of war with Iraq? The diplomatic tug of war shows no signs of ending. We'll have the latest.
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, did an over-the-counter supplement contribute to the death of an aspiring pitcher? Ephedrine goes under the microscope. Other sports have banned it, should baseball ban it as well?
Then police surround the home of Scott Peterson and his missing wife -- wife, Laci, with police tape. What keeps drawing them back to the house? We'll have a live report from Modesto, California.
The talk continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Investigators looking into the death of 23-year-old baseball pitcher Steve Bechler are taking a hard look at the over-the-counter stimulant ephedrine. Bechler, who had been taking the supplement, died of heatstroke following a spring training workout. Now ephedrine has been associated with both strokes and heart trouble, though the makers say it's safe if used as directed.
Now CNN correspondent Josie Karp joins us now with the latest from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida -- Josie.
JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, today, here in Ft. Lauderdale, the Baltimore Orioles held their first full squad workout of spring training, but it was clear that a lot of players were still thinking about the one who is missing and that, of course, is 23-year- old Steve Bechler.
Yesterday we learned a lot about his condition at the time of his death. The Broward County chief medical examiner completed some preliminary autopsy and he was able to give a little more detail about some of the things that might have contributed to the death.
Of course, officially it was heatstroke, but he listed some things like the fact that Steve Bechler suffered from slight hypertension. At one point, he'd also had a liver condition. And of course, the one thing that's getting so much of the attention right now -- that he was trying to lose weight by taking an over-the-counter diet supplement that contains ephedrine.
Now the NFL, the NCAA and the International Olympic Committee all ban ephedrine, but Major League Baseball does not, in its drug policy. So today here in Ft. Lauderdale, a lot of players were wondering whether or not that is something that should change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think more education is needed, and people need to be informed on how serious it is and unfortunately, what happened to Steve this week might open some eyes and hopefully lead to a little more stringent restrictions on that stimulant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a situation that needs to be addressed to see, you know, exactly how many people are using stuff like that and just know when a tragedy like this happens, you know, people need to step back and look and just see if it could have been prevented.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARP: You were just hearing from some of Steve Bechler's teammates.
Now today at practice, several members of Steve Bechler's family looked on. They were in attendance. His mother, his brother and also his sister-in-law were all here today.
Later this afternoon, the Orioles are planning a private memorial service to remember Bechler and those same family members are expected to attend -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: And Josie, I understand there was another scary moment today.
KARP: Yes, it was interesting.
About 12:45 this afternoon out on the backfield, Jason Johnson, another pitcher, fell ill. He had to be carted off the field and later the spokesman for the Orioles said that it was a result of the fact that Johnson had diabetes and he was suffering from low blood sugar.
The Orioles had to change around their routine today, so there's probably an incident where because of that, he wasn't necessarily getting the food or the insulin that he needed.
But Johnson is fine. It was a scary moment, Arthel, but he was able to leave the facility on his own power and he should be all right.
NEVILLE: Well, that's good news.
KARP: Back to you.
NEVILLE: All right. Josie Karp, thank you for the update.
And right now, let's find out more about ephedrine from CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen, who joins us right here on the set.
And Elizabeth, as you know, millions of people take ephedrine to try to lose weight -- not necessarily athletes, but just regular people.
Tell us what it does to your body.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what it does to your body, what worries doctors, is that it can make your heart rate race and also make your blood pressure goes up.
Nobody questions it'll help you lose weight and it can give you an energy boost. But doctors say, At what cost? The FDA has received thousands of complaints that people, after taking ephedra, have had every thing from seizures, strokes, heart attacks and have even died.
Now it's interesting, as Josie said, ephedra's not being called the cause of death here. It's heatstroke. But let's look at some of the contributing factors to his death. He had borderline hypertension already. He had a liver abnormality. He'd eaten very little the day that he collapsed, and when you don't eat much you're more vulnerable to having heatstroke. And he had taken this weight loss product containing ephedrine. And that's why the American Medical Association, last October, urged the FDA to get this herb off the market. It's over-the-counter. It's perfectly legal. Anyone can get it on the Internet. Anyone.
NEVILLE: The health food store even.
COHEN: Oh, anywhere.
NEVILLE: Yes.
Now, so what does the FDA say about ephedrine?
COHEN: The FDA says, Look, we don't regulate herbs. We regulate drugs. We can take drugs off the market but we have very limited control over herbs.
The only thing they've really done is they've urged manufacturers, Hey could you please put a label on here saying that they're -- you know, please put a warning label on. But other than that, they really haven't done very much, although they say they are worried.
NEVILLE: Interesting. Elizabeth Cohen, always nice to see you on TALKBACK LIVE.
COHEN: Thanks.
NEVILLE: Thank you.
And coming up next, did ephedrine play a role in Steve Bechler's death? you've heard what we know.
Up next, who should take it and who should not? A doctor and a nutritionist weigh in after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
We are talking about ephedrine, a dietary supplement used for a variety of reasons, including increased energy and weight loss. But it has also been associated with heatstroke and heart problems. Is it too dangerous to be sold over the counter.
Here to debate that question is, Dr. Gerard Varlotta, a sports medicine physician and director of sports rehabilitation at NYU Medical Center, and Doug Kalman, director form Miami Research Association and Pharmaceutical and Nutritional Service, and he's also a registered dietitian.
Dr. Varlotta, starting with you now, I understand you are not a big fan of ephedrine and why is that?
DR. GERARD VARLOTTA, SPORTS MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: I think there is an increased risk with the use of any supplement that we don't know a lot about. These athletes are putting themselves in high risk by using combinations of different products with stringent training routines under extreme circumstances. And they may have been involved in activities in the off season which created some down time and led to a sudden surge in their metabolic reality and metabolic needs. So, to add a supplement we don't know a lot about, I think, is leading towards a disaster.
NEVILLE: Now, Mr. Kalman, you say if taken properly, ephedrine can be harmless and effective?
DOUG KALMAN, MIAMI RESEARCH ASSOCIATES: I don't know about the word harmless, but certainly if used in the right population and under the indications that we know from clinical research, yes it is effective.
NEVILLE: Effective in what they, sir?
KALMAN: Effective for weight loss and energy enhancement. One of the things the doctor alluded to is, for example in this pitcher's situation, he became more overweight during the off season. He was not in good physical condition. He had border line hypertension. He had liver abnormalities. These are all situations that one person would not want to take ephedrine-type (UNINTELLIGIBLE) supplement. In the clinical studies for weight loss, it does work.
NEVILLE: Let's see what -- have you taken ephedrine?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I took a diet supplement that had ephedrine in it.
NEVILLE: And?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It made my heart rate race and it really frightened me. I read about the drug and one of the signs was increased heart rate and they warned against that. When I had that happen, I quit.
NEVILLE: So, were you taking the recommended dosage listed on the bottle?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. But I'm not a very tall person, so it doesn't take very much.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you, Paula.
I have an e-mail coming in I want to share if we could pop that on the screen. It's from Janet in Pennsylvania. She says, "Ephedra is not as bad people are making out to be. I use it everyday and never feel dehydrated.
OK. Let's see. Mr. Kalman, I'd love you to address that last e-mail that came through. This lady takes it every day. Apparently she's drinking a lot 5 water, not taking too much of it apparently.
KALMAN: Hopefully we'd hope she's in good health to start with and the key there is she stays well hydrated. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) agents such as ephedra or ephedrine, can increase the amount of urine output, therefore, making you a little dehydrated or contribute to dehydration.
NEVILLE: We realize epcos is the plant and ephedrine is an extract.
I have to break right now.
The NFL and IOC say in to ephedra. Should Major League Baseball join the club?
Charles Barkley has something to say about that, coming up next.
But, first back to Kyra Phillips at the news desk with this breaking story -- Kyra.
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE (voice-over): Ephedra increases metabolism and reduces appetite. Over 12 million Americans use ephedra. Ephedra is banned by the NFL, NCAA and the International Olympic Committee.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
We're talking about the drug ephedra and its possible involvement in the death of a 23-year-old baseball player. Here to join the discussion right now is CNN contributor Charles Barkley. And Charles, I'm going to start by asking you if you have ever used ephedra and if you think it's a good idea for athletes to take it.
CHARLES BARKLEY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I used it this morning, to be honest with you. I use it. I think that I'm obviously going through a period where I'm trying to lose weight.
I think it is very dangerous. Because when I first started, I tried to take what the bottle said. I've had it in pill form. Now I'm using it in liquid form. And my heart started racing, I got dizzy a couple of times.
So what I try to do, what I do is I just try to use half of the recommended dosage. And I think it does give me extra energy to work out. But I think it also -- it does speed up your heart, and you just have to be -- I'm not going -- I don't think I'm going to stop, but I think you just have to be very careful with it.
NEVILLE: So you're taking half the dosage and then sometimes maybe you don't take it if you feel your heart racing too much.
BARKLEY: Well, I can tell a difference. Like you don't have the energy or you are not able to work out as hard when you don't take it. I mean, I can notice that there is a difference. But I use it because if I want the extra energy. But like I say, sometimes I can feel my heart racing and I'm only taking half the recommended dosage.
NEVILLE: So Dr. Varlotta, you hear what Charles is saying, that he's taking half the recommended dosage. Let's say someone wants to take ephedra or ephedrine. Should they call their doctor and say, hey, doctor, I want to take this supplement, is it OK?
VARLOTTA: I think there's a number of issues Charles brings up. No. 1 is he's having some symptoms from the use of the medication. And I have a big concern over that.
No. 2 is, everybody that should be exercising should have some physicals on a regular basis to look for underlying problems. The Hank Gathers issue, the death of a number of players over the years that play professional ball is a concern. These are guys that are undergoing physical examinations, they are under the scrutiny of physicians. And we still have an unknown entity of the over-the- counter supplements that can be used, that are interplaying at a variable rate.
We don't know the absorption of many of these products. They're not stringently tested as drugs are. And I think it's inherent upon the FDA and other organizations to help us protect the athletes better.
NEVILLE: So then, Mr. Kalman, do you think that dietary supplements such as ephedrine should be regulated by the FDA?
KALMAN: I think the regulation should really rely upon more of a label claim that the FDA regulates. That if it says it has X percent or X milligrams, that it really does. That's where issues come up.
NEVILLE: OK. And Charles, I want to ask you, do you think that Major League Baseball should ban ephedrine?
BARKLEY: Well, I mean, I don't think -- you know, it's unfortunate the young guy passed away, but I don't think you can just go across the board. But I think there is a big difference, because I've tried a couple of the products that now don't have ephedra in it, and they don't work as good.
I mean I can tell because I tried it. When a couple of guys had problems, I said, well I don't want to do the ephedra, but I noticed I didn't have the same energy level to work out. I couldn't lift as much. But there's a big difference.
But I don't -- you know you got the e-mail from a young lady. One thing that I will, if you look at all these cases of people who have passed away from -- they were all exercising. And I'm not trying to make an excuse. Because, like I said, I haven't decided if I'm going to stop using it or not. But most of those people had a problem. They were exercising in extreme heat. And I think that was a big factor in a lot of these deaths.
NEVILLE: OK. And, Charles, Tyler (ph) here from North Carolina wanted to ask you a question. Or make a comment.
TYLER: Sports is so competitive, how can players take a drug that can actually enhance their performance? How can that be fair?
BARKLEY: Well, it really does not, No. 1, young fellow. It doesn't enhance. It just gives you more energy to work out, which you could say -- it doesn't enhance. You still have to go and lift weights, stay on the bike, do the running and all that other stuff.
But No. 1, it's not illegal. This is stuff you can walk in GNC -- and I don't want to single out GNC -- you can walk in any store. This stuff is not illegal. And I think that's the biggest problem.
NEVILLE: OK. Charles, thank you so much for sharing your story here today. Dr. Varlotta, Doug Kalman, and, of course, Charles, I'll see you again next week. So glad all of you could be with us here.
And still ahead: the U.S. tries to line up support for a second resolution on Iraq and makes Turkey a take it or leave it offer. The march toward Iraq up next on TALKBACK LIVE.
But right now, we're going to go to Kyra Phillips at the news desk with breaking news -- Kyra.
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. The U.S. tells Turkey to take it or leave it but make up your mind. Turkey is being offered a hefty economic aid package in exchange for allowing its country to be used as a staging area in a war with Iraq. At the same time, the U.S. and Britain are struggling to find support at the United Nations for a second resolution on Iraq.
Still, the Bush administration says it will call for one in the coming days. Here is what White House spokesman Ari Fleischer told reporters this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president intends to work with our friends and allies to offer a resolution either this week or next at the United Nations Security Council. And the president has made it repeatedly clear that the preferable outcome is for the United Nations to act. If the United Nations Security Council fails to act, the president, along with a coalition of the willing, will enforce Resolution 1441 by disarming Saddam Hussein.
(END VIDEO CLIP) NEVILLE: OK. Let's talk.
Our guests are Martin Lewis, a British-born political commentator and columnist. He covers politics for a number of organizations, including the BBC. Also, Cliff May, president of the Foundation for the defense of democracies. He is a former communications director for the Republican National Committee.
And Martin, I'm starting with you today. Will there be a coalition of the willing without a second U.N. resolution? And, again, can Prime Minister Tony Blair afford to stand by the U.S. without it?
MARTIN LEWIS, COLUMNIST: Well, Tony Blair is doing a very good job at the moment of trying to temper the natural aggression of the Bush administration, and I hope he succeeds. The expression "a coalition of the willing" is somewhat suspect. A coalition of the willing could include a lynch mob. That's a coalition of the willing.
What makes America a great country and Britain a great country is when we act with moral authority within international law and with the sanction of the United Nations. That is a stamp of authority that we want and must continue to have. And I know that Cliff May, being a decent man, wouldn't want America to be anything less than honorable. So I know he's going to agree with me.
NEVILLE: OK. But you know what, Martin and Cliff, if you could excuse me, I do have to toss to the newsroom now, where Kyra Phillips is standing by with a developing story -- Kyra.
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. We're talking about whether or not the U.S. will get a second U.N. resolution. And Cliff May, you now have the chance to disagree or agree with Martin Lewis.
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Well Martin is quite correct that there are a couple of important moral imperatives here, goals we have to reach. Ones is that Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to continue to develop weapons of mass destruction. He's used chemical weapons against his own people, slaughtering tens, hundreds of thousands in the past.
He agreed to disarm in 1991. That's why we left him in power. He has not disarmed. He has to be disarmed.
And, secondly, he runs one of the most bloody and cruel tyrannies in the world. The perpetuation of that tyranny cannot last any longer. The people of Iraq so want to be liberated. And Martin should join with me and others in agreeing that the people of Iraq do not deserve the war that Saddam Hussein has been waging against them all these years. It's time to disarm Saddam Hussein and liberate the people of Iraq. NEVILLE: OK. Cliff, I want to talk Turkey right now. In exchange for using their base, Turkey wants $32 billion in loans, grants and debt forgiveness from the U.S. Cliff, is this too high a price, or can the U.S. afford to turn it down?
MAY: In a way, both and neither. I mean what Turkey is doing, in its own interest, it's involved in a negotiation, in an obsession of bargaining. Turkey has been often neglected by us, it's been mistreated by Europe. It would like some economic help.
It's going to get some economic help. And now really it's a negotiation over how much help it's going to get. At the end of the day, Turkey, I think, will be our reliable ally.
LEWIS: I see. That's very interesting. The Turkish government obviously has been paying attention to how George Bush runs America. Corporate greed, pigs at the trough. $26 billion, $30 billion, absolutely sure that's what we need. What about the people of America that need healthcare, need education, need all the things that we need decently here? We do not have that?
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: You know, it's so interesting that Martin uses the most terrible adjectives about President Bush and about the American administration. I haven't heard one word about Saddam Hussein, who uses rape as a method of public policy, who rips out the tongues of those who criticize them, who use chemical weapons against villages of men, women and children. Martin, do you or do you not want to see the people of Iraq liberated from Saddam Hussein, yes or no?
LEWIS: We all agree about how bad Saddam Hussein is. However, I think it should be noted...
MAY: But you want to do nothing about it.
LEWIS: No, I think it should be noted. It's very decent that George Bush wants to make up for the colossal blunder by his father and Dick Cheney in not pursuing Saddam Hussein in 1991. But there are ways to contain him. Not appeasement, but containing, which are much more important to us than in risking civilian lives and the lives of American military. They deserve that to be put there in front of a needless war when containment will do the job.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Cliff, hang on to that thought for me. I hate to keep cutting you off, but I do have to go to a break. I'll let you respond when we come back. The "Talk" continues after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
NEVILLE: And, Cliff May, quickly. You have 10 seconds to respond.
MAY: Containment is an absolute fiction. You can't stop Saddam Hussein from smuggling barrels of oil. How are you going to stop him from getting vials of anthrax and smallpox out. Martin, call containment what it really is, a policy of appeasement. Never worked in the past, won't work now.
NEVILLE: Last word. Sorry, Martin, I'm so out of time. I apologize. A lot of breaking news today. We'll have you back again. Martin Lewis, Clifford May, thank you so much for joining us today.
I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be back again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern, 12:00 Pacific with more TALKBACK LIVE.
Candy Crowley is next with "INSIDE POLITICS."
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Fair?>
|
