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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
FBI Arrest Four Suspected Terrorist; Student Asked to Turn T- Shirt Which Labeled President Bush an International Terrorist Inside Out; Some Americans Decide to Boycott French Items
Aired February 20, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
Well, the FBI today moved in on a group of suspected terrorists allegedly operating inside the United States. Four people, including University of South Florida professor Sami Al-Arian are under arrest. Now, four other suspects are at large outside the U.S. Al-Arian is charged with heading a Palestinian terrorist organization. Attorney General John Ashcroft says the group supports suicide bombings, and is determined to destroy Israel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Again, the indictment explains that the manifesto refers to the United States as -- quote -- "the great Satan America" -- close quote -- and indicates that the only purpose of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is to destroy Israel and to end all Western influence in the region.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Now, Sami Al-Arian has been under investigation for years. In 2001, the tenured professor lost his job at the University of South Florida. At that time, the university claimed Al- Arian raised money for terrorist groups, brought terrorists into the country, and founded organizations to support terrorism. Al-Arian maintains he's being persecuted for his pro-Palestinian views.
Joining us to talk about all of this today is Hussein Ibish, director of communications for the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, and Phil Kent, president of the Southeastern Legal Foundation. Want to welcome both of you.
And Hussein, I'll begin with you today. What do we know about Al-Arian.
HUSSEIN IBISH, AMERICAN-ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE: Well, I know him personally, and what we know is that on the one hand, you have had these very strong accusations for a long time from many detractors, backed up so far with no evidence. And now this indictment, extremely serious indictment, from the government.
On the other hand, you've got his strenuous denials, public and certainly private, to those of us who have met him. So at the moment, what we're looking at is, in the first time that all of these accusations have been floating around for about 10 years, have been given real teeth in the form of this indictment, and I guess now we're going to find out, in open court, whether there's ever been any truth to them or not.
NEVILLE: Phil, how do you see it?
PHIL KENT, SOUTHEASTERN LEGAL FOUNDATION: Well, anyone who has been in the Tampa area for the last 10 years knows of the hateful statements that Sami Al-Arian has made. He's made threats against Israel, he said death to Israel. He has been very vocal...
IBISH: That's not a crime.
KENT: ... in his support for Hamas. And basically, there are three very serious counts, one is to murder and maim, one is to provide material support for a terrorist group, and the third is to coordinate terrorism.
So I'm not surprised at all. In fact, Hussein has kind of moderated his support, it's interesting to hear, for Sami Al-Arian. He was far more militant a supporter last year. So I'm glad to see you've toned down.
IBISH: You know, that completely not true -- no, that's completely unfair. What I was saying the whole time was that these allegations, to that point, have been completely unfounded and that all the government investigators have never come up with anything, and the one judge who looked into this, Judge Kevin Armique (ph) completely exonerated WISE and the other groups that Al-Arian agreed he was associated with. So now we have a very different situation, I agree. Extremely serious allegations from the government, very troubling, and I expect that the government will produce a good trial, a fair trial in open court, and will see the case, and justice will take its course as it should.
NEVILLE: So Phil Kent, then, of course, federal authorities have been investigating Al-Arian for almost a decade now, and he was fired from his job at the University of South Florida for activities outside of his employment. So why the arrest now?
KENT: Well, I think the federal authorities finally put their case together on the fact that he basically is the godfather of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group. They're responsible for many murders and suicide bombings. Sami Al-Arian has been hiding under the free speech cloak at the University of South Florida. It really makes you sick when you think about it that he's gotten away with this for so long. So we finally have got the indictments today. I know that's a blow to you, Hussein. You've defended him all this time.
(CROSSTALK)
IBISH: Free speech is a right that needs to be defended.
KENT: Well, material support for terrorism certainly trumps free speech in the war on terrorism.
IBISH: Look. The indictment today that has come down is completely different than somebody's political views. If he's guilty of the kind of things that he has been indicted for, then it's very, very different, even in the allegations that we've heard before, and the kind of unfortunate statements that he's made...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hussein? Excuse me. I was saying that you know him personally. So give us your personal perspective of Professor Al- Arian.
IBISH: I mean -- when I've talked to him, and I've talked to him on many different occasions at political meetings and forums and things like that, I've always had the impression of someone whose politics are very different than mine, in that he has religious politics and I'm staunchly secular, but someone who basically does not support violence, who been vocally condemnatory...
KENT: Well, that is absurd. When he yells death to Israel at a rally -- when he yells...
IBISH: No. Look, look...
KENT: ... death to Israel at a rally, what is he talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
IBISH: Listen. I was never present there. I have been asked what my experience of him has been over the past three, four years that I have known him, and I am telling you. Now, obviously, one would expect that the government knows...
KENT: You seem to defend every terrorist who is accused.
NEVILLE: Hang on, gentlemen, one at a time, please.
IBISH: What are you talking about? What I am telling you is...
NEVILLE: Hussein, give us your personal account, please.
IBISH: That's what I'm trying to do, and what I'm saying to you is that the picture painted by the government today of Dr. Al-Arian is very, very different than the one that I have experienced meeting him on many different occasions. That doesn't mean it's not true. But what it means is that one or the other party here, either the government or Dr. Al-Arian, is going to be proved right, and I'm going to probably end up feeling a sense of betrayal that one side or the other, my government or this person I've met, has basically lied to me. And I think that Dr. Al-Arian... --
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: So, wait a minute, Hussein, so you're saying -- why do say... (CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hussein, can you hear me, sir? Why do you say that no matter what the outcome, that you are going to feel betrayed by either your government or by your acquaintance? Why do you say that?
IBISH: Right. Well, because whoever is proved right here -- I'll try to explain. Whoever is proved right here essentially will have been deceiving me. I mean, Mr. Al-Arian has been protesting that he's had no involvement with any activities of this kind. If it's proved that he has, obviously I am going to feel a sense of personal betrayal. If the government, essentially, is making unfounded allegations, again...
(CROSSTALK)
KENT: Well, surely you know of all the radical groups that he's been tied into if you're personal friend of his. Don't play dumb here on this program.
IBISH: I wouldn't say I am a personal friend of him.
KENT: You know all of the inflammatory rhetoric...
IBISH: I am not playing dumb, I am telling...
KENT: ... he has said against America and against Israel. So...
(CROSSTALK)
KENT: That's ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: So is it going to be...
(CROSSTALK)
IBISH: Look, I have not...
NEVILLE: ... tough to prove ties to terrorism?
IBISH: Let's be reasonable here. I am telling you that -- well, no, it shouldn't be. I would assume that the government has very solid evidence that it can present openly in a fair trial without resorting to secret evidence and without hiding it from the public or hiding it from the jury or the trier of fact, the judge. And that they can, in fact, secure a conviction if they bring an indictment like this.
And if that's true, obviously, then it's justice -- will have been done. But I think it's ridiculous for Mr. Kent to sit here and say that somehow I couldn't take seriously my own encounters with this individual where he...
(CROSSTALK) KENT: You have defended him for months. He's not even a U.S. citizen. He hates this country. He has said that repeatedly. You know that. You've heard his speeches and you continue to cover for him. It's a shame the Anti-Discrimination Committee has gone this low.
IBISH: Look, what is your problem? Seriously...
KENT: I don't like people who aren't U.S. citizens who hate this country.
IBISH: Gentlemen, I have to take a break. We'll continue after the break.
And coming up later this hour, we're going to talk about a T- shirt labeling President Bush an international terrorist. There's the T-shirt. It has been banned at a Michigan High School. Do you think a student should be allowed to wear it? Give me a call, tell me what you think. 1-800-310-4CNN or e-mail me at TALKBACK@CNN.COM. Go ahead an speak your mind.
Then, later, another chance for Jesica, the teen who received the heart and lung transplant with the wrong blood type. We'll get a live update on her condition. We are back after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, a teenager who nearly died in an organ transplant mismatch gets another chance at life.
Then, can you take the French out of fries? Some Americans look for ways to thumb their noses at gay Paris. The talk continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everyone. A teenage girl is getting a second chance after a medical mistake left her near death. We're going to have a live update on her condition in just a few minutes, so stay tuned for that.
Right now, we're talking about suspected terrorists in America, and today's arrest of University of South Florida professor Sami Al- Arian.
Phil Kent, I wanted to go to you on this segment, saying that Professor Al-Arian says, Listen, he is pro-Palestinian, which is why he's being scrutinized. It's all political. How do you see it?
KENT: Well, obviously, we're all in favor of free speech, and he's been a professor at the University of South Florida. But it goes way beyond that. We talked before the break about his inflammatory speeches, we have talked about his associations. He's helped found some of these radical Muslim groups that hate America. You know, his own brother-in-law was arrested and deported for terrorist activities. So this is not some naive, ivory tower professor that's just spewing philosophy. He's actively involved, and he's been charged with being a leader in the war on terrorism against America.
IBISH: Abdin Najar (ph), his brother-in-law was deported for visa violations, but I'd like to say something.
Mr. Kent here -- essentially, I'm very distressed by the attitude he's taking because I've taken a very responsible position that now we wait for the trial and we expect a full, fair trial and believe that the government would not bring these allegations without having serious evidence.
And he, however -- Mr. Kent seems to have already concluded that Dr. Al-Arian is definitely guilty, doesn't seem to be interested in seeing the evidence, and the concern here, the only concern is can Sami Al-Arian get a fair trial. And if everybody takes the attitude of Mr. Kent that the guy is already guilty, then I don't think he can get a fair trial. I'm convinced he will, because the justice system in the United States is still a great one, but I think his attitude is really unfortunate.
KENT: Oh, I think that he'll get a fair trial, but I reserve the right to speak out about Sami Al-Arian's hysterical anti-American and anti-Israel statements. You've been defending him for a long time.
(CROSSTALK)
IBISH: You are absolutely entitled to your views.
KENT: You just haven't come on today to defend him, and you have been his cheerleader.
IBISH: I have been asking where the evidence is. No. That is so unfair and so untrue.
(CROSSTALK)
KENT: I have gotten to see the 100-page indictment.
IBISH: ... what I have been saying all the time is that we haven't seen any evidence.
KENT: You claim you know him...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: One at a time, gentlemen, please. Hussein, let me -- excuse me, sir.
Hussein, can you be pro-Palestinian without being labeled a terrorist?
HUSSEIN: I think it's becoming increasingly difficult, especially rhetorically, but I think you can be pro-Palestinian without be indicted for these kind of offenses. So we need to be clear. I think that there's a segment of actors in the United States, very pro-Israel people who will claim that anyone and everyone who takes an active pro-Palestinian role is sympathetic with terrorism, but I don't think that's the majority of Americans. I think the majority of Americans and also the government understands that you can be pro-Palestinian without being in any way connected to terrorist activities.
However, I think that that line is increasingly getting blurred in an unfair way. I don't know that this is an example of that. We'll have to see.
NEVILLE: OK. Wes here from Tennessee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that one of the bottom lines is that with the new computer networking we have in America that are tracing down paper trails, financial paper trails, the bottom line is if that money is going to where it shouldn't be going, then is the man guilty or not?
IBISH: We'll know. We'll find out.
KENT: Well, and you know darn well that he has been a leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. This doesn't come as a surprise to you, or it shouldn't...
IBISH: I don't know that at all.
KENT: if you claim you are a close -- well, then you're not really that close a friend to him.
IBISH: I never claimed to be a close friend. I said I met him on many occasions.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: That is the final word. We'll not resolve this today. Hussein Ibish and Phil Kent, thank you both for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE.
Now, yesterday, there wasn't much hope for 17-year-old Jesica Santillan -- Santillan who was near death after she received a heart- lung transplant from a donor with the wrong blood type. But early this morning, her prospects changed dramatically when she underwent a second heart-lung transplant.
CNN Elizabeth Cohen is at Duke University Hospital in Durham, North Carolina, with the latest -- Elizabeth.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, here at Duke, they just had a press conference and surgeons said that the operation went well. The heart and lungs, the new heart and lungs, are working and she went off of life support without any difficulties. She is still in critical condition. She is in the pediatric intensive care unit. She is clearly not out of the woods yet. She has a lot of hurdles to overcome. She might possibly get an infection, that's a possibility. Her other organs might not work very well.
In all, people who get this sort of operation have about a 50/50 chance -- percent chance of living through the next year. Now, Duke has also said that they realize what error they made the first time around when they gave Jesica Santillan the wrong organs. They said the doctor failed to check. He just sort of assumed that they were the right type when they weren't, and then he didn't double check it. And they said they put in safeguards to make sure it doesn't happen again. And then, in fact, for this second operation, three different doctors confirmed that the type did, indeed, match -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Elizabeth, if you can, walk us through the last 24 hours.
COHEN: Well, what happened at approximately 11:00 last night is that here at Duke, they got a phone call that said we have a heart and two lungs for you. I have to tell you, Arthel, it's very interesting that they were found and they also, obviously, found the set two weeks ago. These are very rare, it's hard to find a heart and two lungs together. So at 11:00, they got that word. They then flew to where this donor was. They did surgery on the donor to extract the organs, and then came back here and they ended up doing the surgery at 6:00 in the morning. The surgery went until 10:00 in the morning -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK, Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much for that report.
And when we come back, we are going to talk to a transplant specialist about what lies ahead for Jesica. Don't go anywhere. The talk continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: We're talking about 17-year-old Jesica Santillan, who was near death after she received a heart lung transplant from a donor with the belong blood type. Now, earlier this morning, she underwent a second heart lung transplant.
And joining me now to talk about what lies ahead for Jesica is Dr. Lewis Teperman, the director of transplantation at the New York University Medical Center.
Welcome, doctor.
DR. LEWIS TEPERMAN, NEW YORK UNIV. MEDICAL CTR: How are you -- Arthel.
Fine. First of all, Jesica's condition was deteriorating. And I want to know how the impact of -- how that did that impact the surgery and her recovery?
It's a very good question. First off, it's difficult to get a second set of organs and they were treating her for a massive rejection. These medications impede wound healing and certainly impede the connections that were just made. So there's a chance that she won't heal that well. Her kidneys had shut down and the old lungs weren't doing well. There was a question of a possible stroke. So, it's going to be the next 48 hours that will tell us how well she's going to do. NEVILLE: And what sort of complications might she face?
TEPERMAN: Well, the connections that are done that are put together, for instance, the lungs are connected via windpipe and trachea. That connection is very tenuous, because of the high doses of steroids necessary to use to prevent a rejection, this could break down. Blood clots are possible, of course. Then, clearly, infections, when we use drugs to prevent rejection, it's a set-up for an infection.
NEVILLE: You even were saying, doctor, you were surprised at how lucky Jesica is to have had a second heart lung transplant, the donation of the organs, twice inside of a month. It's so unusual.
TEPERMAN: It's a virtual miracle. She's a very lucky girl and we are all praying for her. Just because of her size, being a child and then to have a rare transplant, a heart-lung transplant, that's maybe done five or ten times in the country a year, certainly in this age group. And to have organs that match again, she's unbelievably lucky to have this second chance.
NEVILLE: Do you have any idea where the organs came from, the second set of organs came from?
TEPERMAN: I don't. There is a rumor that we've heard that it might have been directed donation, which means that a family that has just gone through a tragedy may have said we know this girl is dying. We'd like the organs to go directly to her.
NEVILLE: OK. I have a question from Yvette.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr., the reporter alluded earlier that after the second organs were delivered, there were all these safeguards put into place. I was wondering, what safeguards should have been put into place with the first set and if they are, indeed, and what are they -- what are the safeguards?
TEPERMAN: Sure. This is an important question. In fact, this event is a very rare event. I can't imagine or remember it happening within the last 10 years. There are two sides to checking blood types. One is the procurement agency, when an organ becomes available. It's check two or three times on that end. The organs are send or procured and then at the home center, the transplant center, the blood type is checked. I'm sure that the blood types were checked correctly. It's more likely a transcription error that has taken place.
NEVILLE: They were saying the doctor had the -- he walls the one who made the mistake, that he didn't check the container or bag the organs were in.
TEPERMAN: I think the bag is clearly labeled. I think it's a question of knowing what the blood type of the recipient is. And he may have thought incorrectly what that blood type was. But when these organs come out, there are -- there's a standard and it says the blood type right on it. NEVILLE: Doctor, before I let you go, what are Jesica's chances of recovery?
TEPERMAN: As I said, the first 48 hours are very important. But I believe she's got a better than 50 percent chance of making it.
NEVILLE: OK. Well, Dr. Teperman, thank you for joining us.
And coming up next, we'll tell you what happened at a high school when a student -- he wore a t-shirt calling President Bush an international terrorist. Stay right where you are. The TALK continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. What's the story today? Well, it's a T-shirt that has been banned at a Dearborn, Michigan high school. Amy Lang (ph) at affiliate station WJBK has all the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMY LANG, WJBK (voice-over): The t-shirt pictures President George W. Bush with the words "International terrorist." It's 16- year-old Brett Barber's way of expressing his views on U.S. actions abroad.
BRETT BARBER, PROTESTING WAR: Just like someone should have the right to wear the American flag on their shirt when they go to school, just like someone should have the right to wear a god bless America shirt when they go to school, I should have the right to wear this shirt to school.
LANG: But the administration at Dearborn High School didn't see eye to eye with Brett. An assistant principal there asked him to turn the T-shirt inside out. Brett says he was told the T-shirt promotes terrorism. Brett disagreed and decided to go home for the day rather than hide his message.
BARBER: It's not about whether or not one agrees with what the shirt is saying. It's about the fact that I have the right to wear the shirt to the school. That's what it's really about.
LANG: A spokesperson for the Dearborn school tells Fox 2 the school system does support freedom of expression, but must also preserve a supportive learning environment. That the administrator has a duty to curb what could be disruptive.
DAVID MUSIOMEN, DEARBORN SCHOOLS: As a school district, we have the obligation to determine if that message is going to be disruptive to the learning environment.
LANG: As for Barber, he says he'll be back in school without the T-shirt, but with his belief in freedom and his rights still intact.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: All right. Thanks a lot to Amy Lang (ph), affiliate WJBCK in Dearborn, Michigan for that report.
With us now, George Curry, editor-in-chief of the National Newspaper Publisher's Association. He also writes and edits for blackpressusa.com. And James Hirsen, a law professor and columnist for newsmax.com. And welcome both of you, gentlemen.
GEORGE CURRY, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Thank you.
JAMES HIRSEN, NEWSMAX.COM: Good to be with you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: All right. George, I'll start with you. Should he have been able to wear the shirt?
CURRY: Absolutely. If the kid had worn a T-shirt saying, "God Bless America," as he pointed out, or if he said George Bush is the greatest president in the world, no one would have objected to that. He had, I think, rights that protect him under the first amendment, and we should encourage that rather than punish him.
NEVILLE: James, your thoughts?
HIRSEN: You know, Arthel, I am a conservative. And I am a fan of George W. Bush. And that shirt is offensive to me. It's absolutely an offensive statement.
But I find myself agreeing with George. It is offensive statements that the first amendment is designed to protect, and we have a lost opportunity here, Arthel. This could have been a great learning experience for these kids to learn about the first amendment. I absolutely think that he had an assignment, and I disagree with his message, but what we do in this country is we fight and die to protect that wonderful right of free speech that they don't have in Iraq.
NEVILLE: OK. Let's go to the phones now. Becky (ph), you're calling in from Georgia. What do you say and what do you think about this T-shirt? Should he have been able to wear it?
BECKY: No. I don't think that he should have been able to wear the T-shirt. Not long ago, they banned a racist T-shirt. So what is the difference?
NEVILLE: All right. Becky, thanks for calling in. Mark (ph), what do you say?
MARK: I'm a teacher at Central High School in Tescaloosa, Alabama, and I would want him sent home. It offends me and I don't think it's appropriate in my school. But then the question becomes, how do we determine what's appropriate? A lot of what our kids do I don't find appropriate and it offends me, but then you have to determine what is and when do you send them home.
NEVILLE: And so, George, at what point does it become censorship? CURRY: That's interesting. I'm glad he's there from Tuscaloosa. That was my high school in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. It was called Druard (ph) High School.
MARK: Go Falcons.
CURRY: The point is, look, we don't want to get into the position of deciding what students should say. This is a 16-year-old high school kid who expressed a point of view. The way we're set up in this country is what separates us from dictatorships, is that we protect unpopular thought. However unpopular this is, this kid had a right to say it.
NEVILLE: But now does the school have a right to censor this sort of wardrobe in order to protect the learning environment?
CURRY: Well, the interesting thing there is there was a student quoted in Detroit news who said most kids hadn't noticed the T-shirt, hadn't paid any attention. And the only time they rally thought about it was when the kid was about to be sent home.
NEVILLE: When it was brought up, right.
CURRY: So obviously it wasn't a threat to the learning environment.
NEVILLE: What do you say, Jmes?
HIRSEN: They have that right if, in fact, they believe there is some sort of threat to the children's safety and it's imminent. But in any case, whenever we have to resolve this, we should always resolve it in favor of freedom.
NEVILLE: So then he should not have been sent home is what you're saying, James?
HIRSEN: Well, there could have been another remedy crafted. Perhaps he had an assignment to write an essay and he would just wear the shirt during that period where they were discussing politics. Maybe that would be an alternative. But the idea of banning that shirt, I'd like to see students be able to wear shirts that say "Jesus," that say "God Bless America," that have the American flag, that say "Clinton is a liar." All of those things are protected expression.
NEVILLE: All right. Let me get Baker (ph) here. What do you say?
BAKER: At our school, they do have the right to curb and decide what's appropriate and not. In fact, the guy sitting next to me...
NEVILLE: Yes, stand up, Will (ph). You got kicked out of school. I know you did. You had on an Abercrombie & Fitch shirt, didn't you? What did it say? You wore several of them.
WILL: Yes. I didn't really get kicked out of school. I just got sent to the office.
NEVILLE: OK. What did the shirts say?
WILL: All right. I have this pool shirt that's got a rack of pool balls on the back of it, and on the front, it says "Nice rack."
NEVILLE: Yes. And the girls in the audience here went to your high school and they were offended by it. I see. I'm going to talk to them in a second. But Baker (ph), your point was?
BAKER: I think our school is all the better for the fact that we have the right to decide what's appropriate and not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) learning environment.
NEVILLE: OK. And why did those shirts offend you, ladies? Stand up for me. Stand up for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It not necessarily offended us, it was just when he would wear it, we knew that's the reason he would wear them, because he knew it got to us. And my question is, does that school have a dress code? Does it say, you know, don't wear obscene or vulgar shirts that offend people? I mean, it's not necessarily about the amendments, but that, you know, does have a dress code that says in their school rules that they're not allowed to do it.
NEVILLE: Right. So you're saying if there were a dress code in place then that shirt should have been allowed, basically.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it says that -- if there isn't one, then of course he can wear it.
NEVILLE: All right. George or James, do you have any final thoughts before I go to break?
HIRSEN: Well, if it's a dress code, it would have to regulate the T-shirt as a T-shirt, but not the content, unless the content was profane or would cause harm or was disruptive in some way. But again, we should resolve it in favor of freedom, whenever we possibly can.
NEVILLE: All right -- George.
CURRY: This was a teaching moment. What they could do is find someone with a different point of view, have the students discuss them, have them debate it, let them debate the merits of both arguments and let it be an education.
HIRSEN: Exactly.
NEVILLE: OK. Well thank you so much. We have to take break right now. Don't go anywhere, guys.
Coming up next: Americans angry with French opposition to President Bush decide all things French must go. Bye-bye. So do fries by any other name taste as sweet? Let's talk about that when we come back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville. From NATO to the United Nations, the French ands Germans have been a thorn in the side of the United States, trying to get allied support for its opposition or its position on Iraq.
Now a couple of North Carolina restaurants and country clubs are striking back. They're pulling French and German wines off the menu. And at least one restaurant has renamed French fries to freedom fries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since the French government will not support the United States in their war effort, we decided we won't support the French.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're taking the French out of fries and we're now calling them freedom fries. And as they say, freedom tastes good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we can do one little thing, one special thing like not buying French wine or not buying German wine because they're not supporting us, if we can do that one thing, it feels like we've done something to say, hey, we're behind you 100 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: I've got to tell you what, those French fries look so good. I don't care what you call them. I'll eat them.
All right, George, is this an effective protest?
CURRY: I don't think it's effective, because I don't know how much French fries we're getting from France. I doubt that we get anyway. But the point is still -- in keeping with the earlier theme, people have a right to express themselves.
If they want to find ingenious ways of doing it like they're doing it now, all power to them. This is what it's all about. It's not just in North Carolina. I read a story earlier today Fort Smith, Arkansas was taking off French dressing off of salad. So it's obviously something that's spreading.
NEVILLE: All right. And, James, Newsmax is boycotting French fries as well, right? Why?
HIRSEN: Well, we're launching a boycott of all things French, Arthel. They shouldn't just change the name of French fries. We should change the name of French toast, French bread, French kisses. We have to change it all.
NEVILLE: Don't lead out Belgian waffles while you're at it.
HIRSEN: That's right. And I'm from California. You know we have better wine, we have better cheese coming out of California. Let's give it to the Americans. After all, if it weren't for American lives, if it weren't for American efforts, the French would be goose stepping and seig heiling right now.
NEVILLE: All right. Listen, I have David (ph) here. David (ph), you're American but you live in Frankfurt, Germany.
DAVID: Exactly. And not surprisingly, they have a very different view of things. We seem to have a whole theme here about intolerance. We go against the enemies, i.e. maybe the Palestinians in this place, but you don't see people rounding up people in Irish bars in Boston who contribute to the I.R.A.
With France and Germany, they do think they're 100 percent behind America. They're 100 percent behind those innocent Americans who are going to come home in body bags because of George Bush's stupid war.
NEVILLE: All right. James, I'm going to let you respond to that.
HIRSEN: What a bunch of demagoguery. You know the body bags are going to be those Americans who will die if we don't act. What about the price of appeasement? And the French are the masters of appeasement, and they deserve to be stung.
This is a very good thing to get their attention. Americans are sick and tired not of the French people, but of the French government and Jacques Chirac using his political agenda as a way to justify what is a totally vapid anti-war position.
NEVILLE: So, George, do you think the relationship between the U.S. and French governments will ever be repaired?
CURRY: Of course it will. We're big allies. We spend more than $50 billion a year in trading. And I'm not so sure the French are totally against the United States. I disagree with that.
They disagree on the approach. They think it should be an international approach. Now we would should separate that from the issue of whether Americans should express their feelings about this, and that's quite a separate issue, which they should (ph).
NEVILLE: OK, Sean (ph)?
HIRSEN: George, there is an international approach. There are 34 nations. France is the only one in NATO that is obstructing. They are the ones who are going alone. They're the unilateralist here.
CURRY: Well, first of all, the United Nations and Kofi Annan does not agree with that. And obviously they want the United Nations to be more of a force. And we try to have it both ways. We try to go it alone, at the same time trying to tell the international community it must go along with us now. And a lot of times, the issue is, at what point do we want to do it?
(CROSSTALK) NEVILLE: OK. Hang on -- Sean (ph). OK, Sean (ph).
SEAN: The only point I've got is our country is asking for support from other nations to support a fight that we have against terrorism. The European nations, you know, 60 years ago...
NEVILLE: Get to your point for me.
SEAN: ... they asked for our support and we put out the bodies, we put out the people, the people on their land to support and take Germany back.
NEVILLE: I got to go to the phones. You were getting longwinded on me there, sir. All right. Timothy (ph), you're standing by on the phone. What do you say?
TIMOTHY: Yes, I'd just like to say that I think that it's time that the United States stops considering France and Russia and Germany and some of these other countries, allies, and name them what they are. Because they're not backing the United States, and we're looking for the support that we need for...
NEVILLE: All right. Sir, listen, thank you. I'm sorry, I'm tight on time.
And you are a U.S. Marine. Thank you. I know you're headed over there. Thank you very much -- to the Middle East. Didn't mean to cut you off there, Sean (ph).
All right. Listen, George Curry and James Hirsen, thank you so much for joining me here today on TALKBACK LIVE.
CURRY: Thank you.
HIRSEN: Thank you.
NEVILLE: I hope you had a good time. Still ahead: we are going to hear what's keeping the AOL chat rooms churning this week. The buzz index is coming up next. The "Talk" continues in a moment.
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NEVILLE: And with us right now is Regina Lewis, with the AOL Buzz Index. So what's buzzing, Regina?
REGINA LEWIS, AOL BUZZ INDEX: Well, we've got the list. Starting in the number five spot is the anti-Bush T-shirt. It was bought online by the teenager and you can check it out there. Also, you can vote on whether you think it's a good or bad thing. Right now, it's the number one rated T-shirt on that site.
Jesica's transplants is in the number four spot. The whole country pulling for her. A lot of people checking out the Duke Medical Center site for updates. Number three, terror alert. It's on orange, and that's got the country buzzing. Ready.gov, the homeland security site, got big, big numbers this week, but not as big as number two, interestingly, which is realty TV. In particular, "Joe Millionaire" and "The Bachelorette." So even bigger than homeland security online.
And number one attracts the conversation you were just having, is the U.S. a hero or a villain? In a very big international poll, when asked, "How would you describe the U.S.," here are the numbers of people in these countries who said "Arrogant super power."
Take a look. Sixty-nine percent of Germans, 78 percent in France. That's an amazing number. And 51 percent -- we did a little better there in the U.K. By contrast, a million Americans weighed in and only 23 percent said they see it that way. So I think that really tells the story.
NEVILLE: OK. Regina Lewis, thanks so much for checking in with us this week. We'll see you again next week.
LEWIS: Very good -- thanks.
NEVILLE: All right. Coming up next: I would like to talk to you about the "Question of the Day." A T-shirt labeling President Bush an international terrorist. You heard the story a moment ago. It's banned at a Michigan high school. Do you think a student should be allowed to wear it?
Give me a call right now at 1-800-310-4CNN, or you can e-mail me at talkback@cnn.com. And I'll talk to you after this break.
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NEVILLE: All right. Welcome back, everybody. You have seen the T-shirt and heard the announcement. Now, it is time to find out what you think. If you think this student should have been allowed to wear this T-shirt at high school.
You say what, Chris (ph)?
CHRIS: I don't believe he should have wore it, but he has the right to.
NEVILLE: OK. What does Katie (ph) say?
KATIE: I think that if they have the right to ban the guy's name in school, then why not -- that's just crazy.
NEVILLE: OK. Paul (ph) in California, what do you say?
PAUL: Well, before the year 2000, this was a free country. He has a right to wear it, and it's covered by the first amendment.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you, Paul (ph). I have some e-mail sliding in now. Let's see who is up first. OK, Brent in Washington says, "The kid with the T-shirt is just another kid looking for attention. What bothers me is the parents who endorse this type of name calling as good behavior in the public place."
OK. You sigh what, Rudolph (ph)? Do we have another e-mail first? No -- Rudolph (ph).
RUDOLPH: I say that it's his own individuality. And he has the right to do what he wants to do on the school grounds, because if someone can express themselves with a confederate flag on their shirt for southern heritage, someone can say something about terrorism.
LORI: I disagree. I believe the schools have the right -- what has becomes offensive. If they wear a four-letter word on their shirt, if they have people performing sex acts on their shirt, do we call those offensive? Who is going to draw the line?
The school has the right. As a parent of a 16-year-old, I would not allow them to wear that to school.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you very much, Lori (ph). I have another e- mail I want to share with you before we leave. Let's see, coming in now from Susan in New Jersey, Susan says, "Look, just because the T- shirt offends some, taking away the right of freedom of speech is far, far worse. Stop censorship."
Thank you, Susan, from New Jersey. And we're out of time, everybody. Thanks for all your comments, all your phone calls, your e-mails.
But before we leave today, I want to say happy birthday. That's a funny picture. Happy birthday to basketball great and regular TALKBACK LIVE contributor Charles Barkley, celebrating the big 40 today. Don't wear that, that looks crazy, Charles. Don't do it.
OK. Charles, we'll see you next week. I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be back again tomorrow, 3:00 Eastern, with more TALKBACK LIVE. "INSIDE POLITICS" up next.
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T-Shirt Which Labeled President Bush an International Terrorist Inside Out; Some Americans Decide to Boycott French Items>
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