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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Death Toll Rises in Rhode Island Nightclub Fire
Aired February 21, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening, I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight, did the band have permission to use the pyrotechnics that touched off one of the worst fires in American history?
ANNOUNCER: Concert hall chaos turns tragic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got knocked on the ground. People were stamping on my back, on my head. I was holding my head up and said I'm going to die here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A pyrotechnics display during a rock concert accidentally sets off a deadly blaze.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody inside!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The death toll rises. The search for the missing continues. The critically injured cope. Tonight, what went wrong? The second deadly nightclub disaster in a week. Hundreds of people try to escape a closed venue, getting out alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. DONALD CARCIERI (R), RHODE ISLAND: This building went up fast. Nobody had a chance. People were trying to get out windows, they were trying to get out different places, just couldn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A teenager tries to beat the odds, recovering from her second heart/lung transplant, after the first one was botched. Jesica's Second Chance.
Michael Jackson strikes back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: There's always some jerk, some mean- spirited person to try to bring you down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: His response to a TV tell all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: People say why are they always with children? Well, I was raised in a world with adults.
BONNIE RAITT, SINGER: I can't make you love me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The legendary singer/songwriter Bonnie Raitt heading to the Grammies once again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAITT: Well, I can't help you now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But first, she stops by the studio to strike a chord with Connie.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT.
From the CNN broadcast center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening.
Tonight, the worst American fire in more than a decade and one of the worst in history. Fire officials said it took only three minutes. A cameraman from Providence TV station WPRI was there, shooting a story about nightclub sovereignty after Monday's deadly stampede in Chicago.
As you're about to see, some members of the audience and the band Great White noticed the fire before others did, but it took less than 45 seconds for on stage pyrotechnics to turn the concert into a furnace that would kill at least 95 of these people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM GREAT WHITE CONCERT)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Tonight, there are disturbing questions and allegations about the concert's pyrotechnics.
CNN national correspondent Bob Franken reports tonight from West Warwick, Rhode Island.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Moments after the band opened its concert with fireworks, flames leapt up the wall behind the stage. Fans stood watching, many apparent thinking the fire was part of the show.
BRIAN BUTLER, WPRI PHOTOGRAPHER: I noticed when the pyro stopped, the flame had kept going on both sides. And then on one side, I noticed it come over the top and that's when I said I have to leave. And I turned around and I said, "Get out! Get out! Get to the door! Get to the door!"
FRANKEN: Only as the smoke rolled down from the ceiling did the crowd rush toward the exits. Many tried to leave the way they came in and became trapped in the entrance, unable to escape. Within minutes, the building was an inferno.
ERIN PUCINO, WITNESS: And it was like a big wave of people just floating towards the front door and then when we got to the front door somebody fell and then everybody fell on top of them.
JOHN SCHMIDT, WITNESS: When the smoke began to come across the ceiling, I mean, it was really thick, black smoke. And all of a sudden you could just see it and it just rushed right across the ceiling from the stage toward the back of the room where we were. And I mean it was moving. It just overtook the whole room very, very quickly.
FRANKEN: Officials are having a tough time finding out who all the victims are.
GOV. DONALD CARCIERI, RHODE ISLAND: And it may be, in some cases, that we're going to rely on DNA or some other things. But every case is different. I mean some of the situations are just horrific.
FRANKEN: The club had recently passed a routine fire inspection.
CHIEF CHARLES HALL, WEST WARWICK FIRE DEPARTMENT: They had several minor violations that were taken care of and once they were inspected, they met all the -- all our requirements.
FRANKEN: The lawyers for the owners of the club, described as devastated and shocked, insisted they had no idea the performers were planning to use fireworks in their concert. "No permission was ever requested by the band and its agents to use pyrotechnics at The Station and no permission was ever given."
That is emphatically disputed by the leader of Great White, whose guitarist is among the missing.
JACK RUSSELL, GREAT WHITE LEAD SINGER: We advanced the shows and they'll say we have said this is what we have, this is what it does, is it OK to use here or not? Some places will say yes, no problem. Some places say no, we can't do that, so we don't do it. It's not like a big part of the show. You know, tonight we had the permission to do it. (END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: There will be investigations and perhaps prosecutions. But right now, Connie, the community is dealing with overwhelming tragedy and unspeakable grief.
CHUNG: Bob, listening to those who were actually in that club, it's a horrifying story. I mean how could they possibly have survived? I can't imagine.
FRANKEN: Well, it's interesting, when you look at the tape, you see that some of the people were moving in an orderly way. I think some people were panicking. I think that probably when all is said and done we'll find that so many of the people died because they waited too long to leave. As was pointed out just a moment ago, there was a belief among many that what they were seeing was just an extension of the show. They were seeing the fire that was not a danger to them and was something that was planned.
And suddenly they realized, they probably realized with panic to a great degree oh my god, this is a dangerous situation. And many of them died by being trampled to death. And it's just, it's almost too horrible to imagine.
CHUNG: Yes. And what about the band members? What do they have to say?
FRANKEN: Well, the leader of the band saying that, in fact, they had permission to do this, that they had checked. Of course, the owners of the club are saying that they did not. Of course, everybody is now being questioned. There's also a search for the guitarist in the band. So they're caught up in the tragedy, too.
CHUNG: All right, has everyone been identified that is believed to be missing?
FRANKEN: There have been many people who have been identified, but as you heard a moment ago, the big problem is is that it's very difficult sometimes to identify the people. A lot of them didn't have I.D. with them, at least on their person, when they were found, and officials say this is becoming very difficult. They're going to have to resort to some DNA technology and that kind of thing to ultimately identify some of the victims.
CHUNG: Bob Franken, I thank you so much for being with us.
Dozens who were much less lucky were taken to Rhode Island Hospital.
And chief of surgery Dr. William Cioffi joins us tonight.
Dr. Cioffi, thank you.
DR. WILLIAM CIOFFI, CHIEF OF SURGERY, RHODE ISLAND HOSPITAL: You're welcome.
CHUNG: Dr. Cioffi, I know you've been treating the more critically injured. What sort of injuries have you seen?
CIOFFI: We've had 63 patients come to the hospital today. The injuries are predominantly moderate to large sized burns and a lot of people with severe inhalation injuries.
CHUNG: And the death toll has climbed throughout the day, tragically.
Do you expect more casualties?
CIOFFI: I'm hopeful that the patients that are at the hospitals now all have a reasonable chance of survival. Some of the patients have burns over almost half of their body and fairly bad smoke injury. But I think that these patients have a good chance at surviving their injuries.
CHUNG: Have you been able to identify all of the individuals that you have there, because I know that families have been trying, really been flooding the hospitals to find out more about their loved ones.
CIOFFI: Yes, we've been able to identify all 63 patients that were treated at our facility today.
CHUNG: How is your hospital, sir, dealing with the family members who are looking for their loved ones?
CIOFFI: The hospital set up a family assistance center. Our social service and clergy are working along with the physicians and nurses to help take care of the patients and their families, get families united with their loved ones who are in the hospital. And right now many of the patients' families are in visiting the burned patients.
CHUNG: This was probably quite an extraordinary effort on the part of your hospital, but you did an extraordinary job. Can you talk to us about the weight of all of these injured people coming to your hospital?
CIOFFI: Well, it's certainly been an extraordinary day for the hospital caring for these patients. Within 30 minutes of the accident last night, we had mobilized our disaster plan. We had more than 30 physicians, more than 50 nurses and an assortment of other people at the hospital by 11:30 last night to help care for the patients, begin their treatments, triage some of the patients and then help with identification and the families.
CHUNG: Have you ever seen anything like this?
CIOFFI: I've never been in something of this magnitude with this number of patients, no.
CHUNG: All right, Dr. Cioffi, I thank you so much for being with us and I appreciate your taking the time so you can get back to your patients now.
CIOFFI: Thank you.
CHUNG: One week ago tonight, the band Great White was playing at the legendary Stone Pony in New Jersey. And now the owner says the band used the same pyrotechnics without the club's knowledge.
I spoke earlier with Stone Pony owner Domenic Santana from Asbury Park, New Jersey.
Domenic Santana, thank you so much for being with us.
DOMENIC SANTANA, OWNER, STONE PONY, ASBURY PARK, NEW JERSEY: Thank you.
CHUNG: Now, I understand that Great White played at your club recently and set off pyrotechnics, as well. Did they ask you or tell you that they were going to use pyrotechnics?
SANTANA: No, absolutely not. We would not have allowed it for our ceiling height doesn't recommend that you do pyros in this room.
CHUNG: When you realized what was happening, what did you do?
SANTANA: Our stage manager ran to the road manager and told them what the hell do you guys think you're doing? You can't do this here. And they basically turned around and said, no, that's part of the show. It's no big deal. It's just little sparklers and everything. And then we got the call over the radio. I was in my office and security was responding to make sure that they were, take position on the stage for something that not normal was happening. And then by the time I got to the stage it was fizzling out and then the road manager and the stage manager were having some words. And we just decided to, at that point, to let the show go on and we dealt with it at the end of the night with the tour manager.
CHUNG: You had to be so thankful that nothing happened.
SANTANA: It could have been us. That's what is really tough right now for me to stand here knowing that on Valentine's Day what had happened could have been a lot worse. I'm very thankful to be here today, but I'm very saddened, also, for the circumstance that happened for at the end of the show, we told them that that was totally unprofessional, that that was taking the risk of human beings' lives and that was not cool at all.
CHUNG: Did you want to say to them you're not allowed back here or we're going to report you to the authorities?
SANTANA: Well, right now we're going to talk to legal counseling for the actions that were taking place for their jeopardized the welfare of our patrons by not notifying us. So we'll probably be filing suit against them tomorrow. We have a meeting set.
But, you know, basically what we had told them at the end of the night, I thought it would serve them as a message that you can't go into a club and not announce what your actions are going to be for us not to be able to take the precautions for -- when I heard this morning that they were trying to say that the club knew that we were doing this, it's hard for me to believe that for, if the club knew that they were doing this, why didn't the club have fire extinguishers on site, on hand, to have prevented that circumstance?
CHUNG: What do you think, then, happened there? Do you think that this group is just irresponsible?
SANTANA: Totally. Totally. I mean I know from our experience, in our experience they snuck it in and without no concern to the welfare of our patrons. So I'm concerned that that was the same situation, that they didn't not learn from us scolding them, basically, of telling them that that was not cool, that that was unprofessional and basically, you know, we would not allow them to ever play here. And I think after tonight, I think they're dead. They're not going anywhere. A band like that that's irresponsible, it's, they're not going nowhere. I think that they were just trying to maybe bells and whistles to their performance will get them to another level. It got them nowhere.
CHUNG: It's commendable that you came forward today, but in retrospect, would you say you wish you had called authorities about them?
SANTANA: Looking back at it, I think I should have maybe done something to in Pulstar (ph) or have looked at their routing to see what other clubs that they were touring on and I could have given them advance notice of what happened here so to prevent the other clubs that I knew that they were going to be touring on. Because it's all a touring schedule. They know where they're going to be tomorrow, so on and so forth. And I would have had that schedule and I could have forewarned the other clubs. I'm just sorry I didn't take that measure.
CHUNG: All right, Domenic Santana, I thank you so much for being with us.
SANTANA: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Great White singer Jack Russell said today that the band always notifies clubs about pyrotechnics. Of course, we wanted to ask the band about these new allegations, but we were unable to reach band members or representatives of the band for a comment tonight.
And joining us now to address the legal issues raised by this tragedy and the allegations about it, our own legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, can authorities go after the band and the club for criminal culpability?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Given the scale of this tragedy, they will certainly look into the possibility of criminal charges. Those will almost certainly relate to the use or misuse of these pyrotechnics. That could be a criminal offense in Rhode Island and most states.
But I think civil litigation is far more likely coming out of this than criminal, although criminal is possible.
CHUNG: And would it matter if they had been performing at another club earlier and also did not have approval, you know, to use these pyrotechnics?
TOOBIN: Not, that, as a criminal matter, that doesn't really matter. I mean if you violate the law the fact that you got away with it some other time doesn't make it legal when you're ultimately caught. So I think the fact, if they had been misbehaving previously, that doesn't give you a pass to do it again.
CHUNG: I see. Obviously, I mean it seems like a given that victims and victims' families would have civil suits here.
TOOBIN: No question about it. I wouldn't be surprised if some are filed on Monday. And the initial plaintiffs are likely to be, of course, the members of the band and the owners of the club. What makes this story somewhat complicated and interesting is that both the band and the club are unlikely to have much money, even with insurance, to pay off any damage judgments, even if they're found liable. And then the question would be could you find anyone else liable?
CHUNG: Well, what about the city? Did the city have a responsibility to make sure that, you know, fire regulations were abided by, whatever?
TOOBIN: That'll be something plaintiffs' lawyers will look into, of course, because cities are deep pockets. They tend to have money to pay judgments. But most states have laws that make it difficult to sue cities for essentially wrongdoing of other people. These laws have been on the books for a long time. It's generally hard to sue if someone has violated the city's laws, to sue the city for not policing it adequately.
CHUNG: This is really quite extraordinary, isn't it? And I don't think we have heard of such a situation in the priest.
TOOBIN: Well, mass disaster torts are actually a big area of the law. You know, when you have a deep pocket, when you have a defendant that can pay -- like if you remember back in 1981, a terrible bridge collapse at a Hyatt Regency in Kansas City, 114 people were killed. It was a tremendous, years of litigation as a result of that. That was because Hyatt Regency and Hallmark, which owned the facility, had lots of money to pay.
Here the question is how much litigation will there be if there's just no money to be gotten? Because Great White and this club are unlikely to have much money.
CHUNG: Oh, that's terrible, though, that the, these victims have no recourse.
TOOBIN: Well, so what they will do is they will look elsewhere. They will start to look at the manufacturers. They'll look at the manufacturers of the pyrotechnics. Perhaps there was some negligence in the manufacture. They may look at the people who built the club building itself, the owner of the building, the manufacturers of the metal, of the steel in the buildings, the manufacturers of the insulation. Those will be the places that might get sued. It doesn't mean they'll be held liable.
CHUNG: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.
And still ahead, what if it happens to you? What do you need to know to survive?
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next, a packed auditorium, people everywhere, a blaze ignites, mass chaos. Finding a safe escape, when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We learned of the horrific Rhode Island club fire on the same day that Chicago began burying its dead from Monday's panicked stampede at a nightclub there, which killed 21 people and injured dozens more. And now, we're also learning details of another nightclub fire Monday that was also started by a band's onstage pyrotechnics. In this Minneapolis fire, 120 people got out unharmed. And it turns out the two incidents that did turn deadly this week were not even the worst club disasters in the nation's history.
One hundred and sixty-four people died in 1977 at the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Kentucky. Arson killed 87 people at the Happy Land Social Club in New York 13 years ago.
When you see video like today's from Rhode Island, it's hard to imagine there's anything you can do to survive. But Fire Chief Charles Hall pointed out a key mistake some of the concertgoers made.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALL: Human nature being what it is, and many of these people it was the first time they, I would surmise, the first time they've ever been here, they tried to go out the same way they came in, and that was the problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: So, what should people do?
Neal Rawls is a former police officer and co-author of "Be Alert, Be Aware, Have A Plan: The Complete Guide To Protecting Yourself, Your Home, Your Family." He joins us from Boynton Beach, Florida. And in Atlanta, we have Marietta, Georgia Fire Chief Jackie Gibbs, who also chairs the Fire and Life Safety Committee for the International Association of Fire Chiefs.
Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us.
NEAL RAWLS, AUTHOR, "BE ALERT, BE AWARE, HAVE A PLAN": Thank you.
CHIEF JACKIE GIBBS, MARIETTA, GEORGIA FIRE DEPARTMENT, CHAIRMAN, FIRE AND LIFE SAFETY COMMITTEE, IAFC: Thank you for having us.
CHUNG: Sure.
Chief Gibbs, I understand that a lot of people in this latest fire made a mistake by going for the entrance and they should have gone for the exits. What should they do?
GIBBS: Well, Connie, we always recommend, whether someone's at home, at work or out for entertainment, that they always know two ways out and that they look for the exit nearest to them and then look around the building and make sure that they see another way out. That exit oftentimes will be very much closer to them than the way they came in.
CHUNG: All right, Neal Rawls, I was actually quite surprised when I learned this, you recommend that you should not go with the crowd or against the crowd in the event of a stampede like situation, but instead you should go diagonally. Why is that?
RAWLS: You want to kind of like swarming out of a rip current. You don't want to get smashed into something. What you're trying to do is move out of that flow that can crush you and you can't go against them. They're too strong to do that. You have to like move out the same way you would if you were swimming out of a current of a river or a rip current in the ocean. You have to move out on an angle.
CHUNG: Chief Gibbs, what should you do to help prevent smoke inhalation?
GIBBS: Well, any time that you're involved in a fire situation, the better air, the cleaner air is going to be near the floor. If you can cover your face or cover your mouth, anything to give you a little bit of filtration of the smoke and then try to get to that fresh air near the floor, if you find yourself in extremely smoky conditions.
CHUNG: And that hasn't changed since we were kids in school, has it? You should always get down there. Everyone should know that.
GIBBS: It's something that we work with in the fire service every day to try to get the message to the American public. They have to have a plan, they have to know where their exits are and they have to take action fast when they find themselves in an emergency situation.
CHUNG: Now, Neal Rawls, we have always been told that you should not go into elevators in a high rise building when there is a fire. But we also learned from 9/11 that there were people who took elevators down instead of taking the stairs and they survived.
RAWLS: Well, those were some elevators that were made for the lower floors. The thing is, if a fire gets the elevator buttons, it can short you out right on the floor where the fire is, open those doors right into the fire. Just a matter of course, don't take an elevator if there's a fire, take the stairs. The stairs are made to protect yourself from fires. They're fire stairwells.
CHUNG: Chief Gibbs, Neal Rawls, I thank you both so much for being with us.
Right now, tonight's look at The World In 60 begins with an update on the Florida professor allegedly on the wrong side of the war on terror.
(voice-over): Islamic Jihad is denying any links to the Florida professor arrested on Thursday, charged with supporting the Palestinian terrorist group. Islamic Jihad also said it will not attack Americans in retaliation, that its fight remains with Israel.
The head of the United Nations nuclear watchdog agency is in Iran to inspect its nuclear facilities. The visit follows concerns expressed by the U.S. that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons.
Secretary of State Colin Powell is heading to Asia to coordinate a regional strategy on how to deal with another potential nuclear threat, North Korea. Secretary Powell plans to visit Japan, China and South Korea.
Filipino officials are downplaying reports that the U.S. is sending special forces to help fight Muslim rebels. The issue is sensitive, since the Filipino constitution bans foreign troops from fighting in the country.
ANNOUNCER: Next, the teenager who's fighting for her life while friends and family pray.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did have a marked increase in the swelling with some bleeding in her brain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A friend of Jesica Santillan's family says doctors have told them the 17-year-old girl is brain dead, one day after her second heart-lung transplant this month.
CNN medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has been following this story and joins us from Duke University Hospital in Durham, North Carolina.
Elizabeth, the family must be just so incredibly devastated.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Connie, that's exactly what family spokesman Mack Mahoney. He says the mother, the father, the whole family is indeed just devastated. Mack Mahoney that an EEG showed that there was no brain brain and activity and that the doctor told him that Jesica Santillan is indeed brain-dead. However, the doctor wants to do two more tests, one tomorrow morning and one at 1:00 tomorrow afternoon, to confirm that. And then the family will be faced with the decision about whether or not to take her off life support -- Connie.
CHUNG: Elizabeth, what caused her to become brain-dead?
COHEN: What caused it is basically that a heart-lung transplant, even just one heart-lung transplant, is a very dangerous operation.
There is only a 50-50 chance that someone Jesica's age would be alive a year after such an operation, even when there is just one. The body swells, which is what normally happens. But, in this case, also, her brain swells. There was swelling and bleeding within the brain. And that can lead to multi-organ failure. She also had problems with her kidneys, we were told, for quite a few days now -- Connie.
CHUNG: Do you know if the family is going to make some critical decisions about her?
COHEN: The family spokesman says that her mother said, "I will not take my baby off of life support. That's in God's hands and I will not make that decision to take her off life support."
Now, Mack Mahoney, who is the family friend who has raised money for her care, says that he will try to talk to the mother and try to convince her that, when that time comes, she would need to be taken off of life support. He said that he won't make that decision. Ultimately, of course, the parents will -- Connie.
CHUNG: All right, Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much. It is just so sad.
COHEN: Thank you.
Renee McCormick is a spokesperson for Jesica's Hope Chest, a foundation for critically ill children inspired by Jesica's case. She joins us tonight from Durham.
Renee, thank you for being with us. Are the family...
RENEE MCCORMICK, SPOKESPERSON, JESICA'S HOPE CHEST: Connie, thank you so much.
CHUNG: Renee, are the family members at her bedside?
MCCORMICK: They are, yes, and just devastated, and trying to come to grips with what has happened today and how to proceed tomorrow, and just trying to hold it together. And they are a very strong family. And we're all praying for them at this hour.
CHUNG: Renee, when you say they're trying to decide what to do tomorrow, what do you mean? MCCORMICK: They have a lot of very hard decisions ahead of them. It is anticipated that, sometime after 1:00 p.m. tomorrow, Duke will determine Jesica to be clinically brain-dead. And, at that point, her mother and father need to make a decision about whether to remove her from life support or to continue to have her be maintained on life support.
CHUNG: And I know they're very, very religious. Your sense is what?
MCCORMICK: My sense is, it is going to be very hard for Magdalena to make that decision. This is her daughter. She has seen many miraculous events over the past week. And it is going to be very hard for her at this point to come to grips with what has happened today.
I think that she will rely on her husband and Mr. Mahoney's help and assistance in deciding what is best and what should be done.
CHUNG: Renee, tell us, I know that the family has to be so sad, but is there anger there, too?
MCCORMICK: I think you can't help but feel a little bit of anger. It has just been an incredible last seven days that this has really hit the world stage. And in that small amount of time, Jesica has touched more lives than most people probably ever will.
And I think the anger comes from the fact that this could have happened a week prior to when it started, which would have provided Jesica seven more days of very vital time off of the life support machine. And I think they feel, if we had started earlier and Duke had come clean about the error before they did, that something could have been done similar to what happened, but it could have been in time enough to have saved her life.
CHUNG: Renee, is the family working with a malpractice attorney?
MCCORMICK: Yes, they are. Primarily, they brought him in during some very intense conferences that the family had to go through at Duke University Medical Center. And they needed some legal counsel.
And, as far as their intentions of filing a malpractice suit in the future, I cannot speak for that right now. I think it is the last thing on their mind. They're just trying to cope with the fact that Jesica has a heart that is beating and lungs that are functional and they are independently working and now their child is faced with brain death.
CHUNG: Renee McCormick, I thank you so much for being with us.
MCCORMICK: Connie, thank you so much.
CHUNG: And our prayers are with the family.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up: He's been criticized for doing this, but now evidence of an unlikely supporter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN BASHIR, JOURNALIST: Your relationship with your children is spectacular.
JACKSON: I love them.
BASHIR: And, in fact, it almost makes me weep when I see you with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Michael Jackson tries to set the record straight -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: After many hours of prime-time specials, Michael Jackson got to tell his side last night -- well, kind of.
Jackson had complained about his portrayal in a documentary by British journalist Martin Bashir. It revealed that Jackson sleeps with children and raised questions about Jackson's fitness as a father. So Jackson sold his tapes of the Bashir interviews to Fox for a special that aired last night. Jackson presumably hoped to show that Bashir said one thing to Jackson's face and another to his viewers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASHIR: Your relationship with your children is spectacular.
JACKSON: I love them.
BASHIR: And, in fact, it almost makes me weep when I see you with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Of course, even if Bashir had lied his head off to Jackson, there still would be the concerns raised by what Jackson himself told Bashir.
So we have with us tonight a former member of Jackson's family, Jack Gordon, La Toya Jackson's ex-husband and author of the upcoming book "Never Neverland: My Years Inside the Jackson Family."
Thank you so much for being with us.
JACK GORDON, EX-HUSBAND OF LA TOYA JACKSON: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Jermaine Jackson, Michael's brother, said this was a modern-day lynching. What do you think?
GORDON: I don't think it was at all, no. CHUNG: Why not?
GORDON: I think Martin Bashir started this project with the intent of doing only good things for Michael. I think Martin Bashir then saw some very disturbing things, which created him to turn and betray -- and he did betray him -- but maybe with cause.
CHUNG: Over a period of about three years, you were able to see the Jackson family practically on a daily basis. Michael was about 20 at the time. Did you ever notice any behavior that authorities or anyone might consider peculiar behavior on Michael's part?
GORDON: Without question, yes.
CHUNG: Such as?
GORDON: Small children. There were a lot of small little boys there. And they all looked pretty much the same: blond hair, white children. And Michael would disappear sometimes with one of the children. And maybe you wouldn't see the child and Michael again for three or four days. Now, also...
CHUNG: What are you suggesting?
GORDON: I'm suggesting that Michael took that child away into a bedroom and something happened. And, also, I saw personality changes. Let's say a small child would come to the house, disappear with Michael. Prior to him disappearing, he was laughing and playing.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: You mean the child?
GORDON: The child, yes. It would like a happy child, laughing, playing, going to the candy store, which Michael had in the home.
Then, when he came out, he would his head down, be embarrassed, not -- just, the personality changed totally.
CHUNG: You're making a serious allegation. You realize that.
GORDON: I do realize that.
Let me ask you a question, Connie. Let's assume that I'm right. Let's assume that Michael Jackson is a pedophile. And let's assume that the authorities did nothing. How many more children got hurt over the period of 10 years that nothing did happen? There was no investigation. And the case was just dropped.
CHUNG: Yes?
GORDON: Then how many more children were hurt only because the authorities did not investigate? Now, why would they not investigate?
CHUNG: Now, in 1993, your ex-wife, La Toya Jackson, said -- she actually accused her brother of being a pedophile. Does she have any direct evidence that would suggest that he is a pedophile?
GORDON: La Toya talked to the district attorney in Santa Barbara almost every day and gave them names, addresses and telephone numbers of many, many children.
CHUNG: And nothing happened?
GORDON: Yes. Well, things were happening then.
CHUNG: Well, you've written a book. And it is all about the Jackson family. Do you have -- I assume that much of it is negative?
GORDON: Not really.
CHUNG: No?
GORDON: No.
Really, the book is with about my life with them. And it covers all of them. It covers not only La Toya, Michael, the mother, the father, every one of them.
CHUNG: What do people not know about the Jackson family and Michael Jackson?
GORDON: Well, first of all, Michael Jackson controls everything that goes on.
I know that Martin Bashir's piece looked like Martin Bashir did all these things, but, positively, Michael controlled that tape. Now, Michael said he was misquoted, but those were his quotes. Now, when Michael showed you the piece yesterday, and it said unedited, we received this unedited and we're showing it just like we received it. Guaranteed that Michael edited that tape before he gave it to you, before he gave it to Fox.
Then there were some interesting things in that tape. You want my opinion of it?
CHUNG: Sure.
GORDON: OK.
No. 1, Joe Jackson never wanted to be called dad or father, only Joseph. Debbie Rowe never wants to be called mother. She said that was her decision. That absolutely was never her decision. That was Michael's decision. He controls it.
CHUNG: But you haven't seen Michael Jackson in years. How do you know all of this?
GORDON: I just know him. I know things about him. I know his control. I know what he does. You saw footage of fans screaming and loving and adoring from old footage of concerts. That was done very much intentionally. You saw the songs prior to the opening of every episode of that interview. Everything was designed to make you feel sorry for him and to make you know that people love him.
CHUNG: All right, Jack Gordon, I thank so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
GORDON: Thank you very much.
CHUNG: When we come back: a legendary, but very different musician who is up for yet another Grammy this weekend.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: She's the best. Here are some of the numbers on Bonnie Raitt: number of albums, 16; number of Grammys, nine, although that could change this weekend; and perhaps best of all, even in the world of rock 'n' roll, number of years, 53. That's right. She's 53. And she says she's at the top of her game, touring behind her latest album, "Silver Lining."
And she's in town with us tonight because she's got to get ready for the Grammys. And it is right out there at Madison Square Garden.
Bonnie Raitt, oh, I got to...
RAITT: Hey, Connie.
CHUNG: Hey.
RAITT: Thank you for having me.
CHUNG: Oh, please.
RAITT: Thank you.
CHUNG: You are my all-time favorite, bar none, man, woman, singer, musician, songwriter, everything.
RAITT: Fantastic.
CHUNG: Everyone says that this one sizzles. Oh, man, does it sizzle.
RAITT: Thank you.
CHUNG: Everyone has been saying it is raw and naughty. So, tell us about...
RAITT: Oh, this particular song?
CHUNG: This particular song.
RAITT: Oh, yes, this song was particularly fun to get. This is a rock nomination for female vocal. It is not the pop one, so you're allowed to get a little bit more out.
I'm fundamentally a rhythm and blues rock 'n' roll artist. And I wanted to write a song with my friend, Roy Rogers, another great slide player that I really love -- and about how you keep a relationship hot, even though you've been together for a while. And everybody knows that kids will gag when they think about their parents actually doing it.
(LAUGHTER)
RAITT: I thought that was a good jumping-off point.
CHUNG: Oh, yes, mine stopped when I was born. Yes, you know that.
RAITT: None of us have sex after 40, right?
CHUNG: Exactly.
RAITT: Not true.
So, this one has got the little subtle title called "Gnawin' On It." And it's family show here, so we won't go into it. But it was a lot of fun recording. And I'm glad I got nominated for that one.
CHUNG: Now, the "New York Times" calls "Silver Lining," the C.D. that "Gnawin' On It" is in, sort of that you have reached your prime, that this is your moment.
So what you do is talk about you. Have you made peace with your past?
RAITT: Well, I wasn't really not at peace with it. I just kind of -- as we all do, we go through phases in our life when we're separating from our parents and getting wild and woolly and out in the world in our early 20s. And it is a different kind of music then than it is in your 30s and 40s.
And I think, at this point, I probably am more sitting down in all the different parts of myself and have accepted myself more. And let's hope so, by your fifth decade, that you live a little bit more. But I think I was singing about pretty adult themes, even if my early 20s. I just have a -- I'm coming at them with a little bit more humor and vision and wisdom, hopefully.
CHUNG: So what would the Bonnie Raitt today say to that Bonnie Raitt before?
RAITT: Get some rest.
(LAUGHTER)
RAITT: No, I think I -- I would not be who I am today if it wasn't for all the things that I've been at every decade. And I think everybody else relates to my music, especially in those of us that -- I've grown up with Jackson Browne and James Taylor, Joni Mitchell.
We have all sung this culture and this growing-up in our songs. They're personal singer/songwriter songs. And mine a lot of times have to do with men and women and the pain they cause each other. And there is just this true -- those songs are just as true and they hold up, so many of them, five decades later. So, I would just say, keep going on. And there's a couple of guys I would prefer to have skipped, if somebody had told me, but, you know, that's why I'm here today singing about gnawin' on it.
CHUNG: You've been through the best of times and the worst of times: the best of times, certainly, nine Grammys and Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, all of that; worst of times, drugs, alcohol, separation from your husband.
RAITT: Oh, I wouldn't call those the worst times. I had a lot of fun getting high.
(LAUGHTER)
RAITT: I think all of us did. I didn't go into rock 'n' roll because I wanted to go to bed early.
The worst of times was being knocked off the radio in the '80s when the country kind of lurched to the right politically and a lot of my dreams of the counterculture that I just thought, saving the environment and peace and justice and women's rights and working on poverty and ending suffering, was going to be something everybody agreed on. And then there seemed to be other priorities. And the music business was changed to a big corporate megalomania, which it still is.
And people that do fringe and roots music were kind of bunted off the radio. And so, for me, the worst of times were the '80s, for me, because that was a tough decade. And my response to it was to continue a lifestyle that I was doing anyway, which wasn't really problematic. But in your mid 30s, if you're partying, it is going to look bad on you. As my dad said to me, everybody love those jazz singers no matter what weight they were.
There was a point there where I wanted to get my own personal lifestyle together. But, at the end of that decade, college radio and alternative music kind of brought in a fresh air for somebody like me, who was a roots music artist.
CHUNG: And for those kids out there who don't know who your dad is, John Raitt, the great John Raitt.
RAITT: Broadway singer, still going strong at 86, still singing.
CHUNG: Get out. Really?
RAITT: We sing together all the time. It is great.
CHUNG: Oh, I love it. I love it.
RAITT: I'm so lucky to have him.
CHUNG: You are.
All right, thank you, Bonnie Raitt. RAITT: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: All right.
And, right now, new suspicions about gasoline top tonight's "Snapshot."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): Are we getting hosed at the gas pump? At a national average of $1.66 a gallon, Florida's attorney general suspects price-gouging and is calling for an investigation. The Federal Trade Commission is reviewing the request.
There are signs the Pentagon is getting serious with its war preparation. All military and civilian employees have been given emergency escape hoods in case of a nuclear, chemical or biological attack.
Could CBS be casting its eye on CNN? A newspaper report says the CBS parent, Viacom, would be interested in buying CNN, if CNN were for sale. CNN is not commenting on this report.
Advertisers are feeling the rhythm in the growing cloud of Spanish Americans. "USA Today" reports Procter & Gamble plans to run an ad in Spanish during Sunday's Grammy Awards.
The money is on Fox's "Joe Millionaire," which attracted up to 40 million viewers for its season finale. ABC's "Bachelorette" pulled in 20.4 million during its two-hour program.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: On Monday, you got to see our series. It's called "The Diet Challenge." It begins with one of the biggies, Barry Sears, and his famous diet, the Zone. And that's just the beginning. You'll want to see every night next week.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": the latest on the Rhode Island concert fire and reaction to the new Michael Jackson tape.
Thank you so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and have a great weekend. We'll see you on Monday.
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