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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Death Toll Rises at Rhode Island Club Fire
Aired February 21, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, fire, panic and a crush of bodies at a Rhode Island nightclub.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were hearing screams.
JACK RUSSELL, GREAT WHITE, LEAD SINGER: There's no words to describe how I feel right now. I'm in total shock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: As the death toll rises, a lot of questions go unanswered and some people are still searching for loved ones.
Hello, everybody, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. The death toll continues to rise from that nightclub fire in West Warwick, Rhode Island.
A pyrotechnic display during a Great White concert sent searing flames rushing through the buildings. Scores of fans were trapped inside as people crushed the exits. Now, we are awaiting a news conference with the owner of the Stone Pony Club in Asbury Park, New Jersey. He told CNN earlier that Great White played his club last week and put on a pyrotechnic show without his permission. We'll bring that live to you when that happens. We start in Rhode Island, where CNN correspondent Jason Carroll is covering the nightclub fire. And Jason, go ahead and give us the latest.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest number that we have is at this point, is that the death toll has risen to 86. Eighty-six people have died so far in this fire and officials are saying the number could rise, again, even more.
Let me give you -- show you an aerial shot of what investigators are doing at this point. They're in the process of moving heavy pieces of debris so they can get to the area where they believe more bodies are buried. The area is the part of the club that used to be the front entrance. Also another part of the club that used to be the stage and dance floor, this is where many people became trapped and simply could not get out alive.
Very quickly here, a recap of what happened here last night. It was about 11:00, and a very popular heavy metal band called Great White took the stage at The Station, a popular club here in West Warwick. And they used pyrotechnics as part of their act, a part of their opening act. And the pyrotechnics quickly ignited a sound wall, and people who were inside the club have been telling us all morning long that basically what happened is within three minutes, the club was completely engulfed and that it was nearly impossible to get out, because there was heavy smoke. The lights went off, even those people who knew where the exit was simply couldn't find it because there was so much confusion, there was so much panic. People who are -- who managed to get out alive simply say it was just as chaotic inside as outside.
Once people got outside, those who were badly injured actually used the snow to try to soothe their burns. It was actually from one person, a horrific, horrific scene. There seems to be some sort of discrepancy in terms of whether or not pyrotechnics were supposed to be used inside this club. We know at this point that the club did not have a license to use pyrotechnics. The club owner says that, look this band never asked us if they could do this. The band says we did ask and were given permission. Just a short while ago, in fact, the club owners released a statement; I'm going to read part of it.
It says, "At no time did either owner have prior knowledge that pyrotechnics were going to be used by the band Great White. No permission was ever requested by the band or its agents to use pyrotechnics at The Station, and no permission was ever given."
A little earlier, I heard you talking about another very popular club in Asbury Park, New Jersey, the Stone Pony, popular place, Bruce Springsteen often plays there. The owner of that particular club says, again, that when Great White played at their club, at their establishment, they used these pyrotechnics and used them without permission and a number of people were shocked there that they were able to get away with using pyrotechnics in such a small establishment. Of course this is probably one part of the investigation that officials here will be looking into as they continue to sift through the rubble and continue to search and identify the victims -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: You're right, Jason. The owner of the Stone Pony is Domenic Santana and we're waiting to hear from him shortly via news conference. Jason Carroll, thank you so much for that update.
Now the fire engulfed the club in only minutes, as Jason Carroll just reported, burning through paneling and sound proofing material on the club's walls. Officials say the club had no fire code violations.
With us now is CNN correspondent and security analyst Mike Brooks. He is, among other things, a former assistant fire chief in Fairfax County, Virginia. And Mike, you know, we just saw those pictures, but I want to take a look at the tape again, because the pictures are so unbelievable to see the guy standing there with a fire right behind him, his shoulders, his head. And so how does this get so bad so quickly, Mike?
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems, as some of the things around the stage, we look at the flames right now, you see the flames going up into the sound panels and most likely the sound panels that we see the fire going up and across the roof, of the ceiling of the establishment, they probably were combustible, they probably were not fire retardant.
I spoke earlier with Don Bliss who is the president of the National Association of State Fire Marshals and we talked to discuss a couple things from what he saw on our air. And one of the things we talk about are combustibles. We to into clubs and we see wall hanging, the we see drapes-looking-kind-of-materials hanging from the ceilings. All those, most of the time, or combustible. This is an older building that doesn't have a sprinkler systems.
Now, by code, there's different fire codes for different states, but by code, you don't have to have sprinkler systems in older buildings like this, unless you do some kind of renovation. Now, all new construction has to have some kind of sprinkler system. Other things that are concerned are exits. They said all the exits were open in this particular one. We go back, and talk about history repeating itself.
Back in 1942, there were 491 people killed in the Coconut Grove fire in Boston, Massachusetts, just down from Rhode Island. And there, a lot of the problems -- the problem there started in an artificial palm tree, the fire there started there and quickly spread three to four minutes, they're saying, across the club that was packed with 1,000 people; 491 of those people died inside the club.
Now, as the death toll continues to rise here, we think about a lot of things. And people when they go out now, should also think about a lot of things. You know, we can put codes on and regulations on all kinds of different things, combustibles, lighting, sprinklers. But one thing we can't regulate, and that's people's reactions.
NEVILLE: That's right, that's right.
BROOKS: We looked last week, 21 people died in Chicago. We're up to 85 now in Warwick, Rhode Island. I mean a lot of this-a lot of the people died because of their reactions after the emergency hit. And a lot of people panicked; and a lot of people now--we go on board an airplane people talk about--the flight attendant tells us about exits to follow the row of lights, look behind you because that could be the closest exit. When people go into restaurants now, fire officials and law enforcement officials say look around you, be aware of your surroundings. We've been told this around because of after the terrorism heightened-went to orange. Now people should also, with the current things going on, and with the current news within the last two weeks, be cognizant of your surroundings when you go into buildings.
NEVILLE: I got to tell you something. We were at a concert, friends and I-we were at a concert a couple weeks ago and it was crowded. First thing you do, you're like if something happens a fight breaks out, this is where I'm going--you just have to do it.
BROOKS: Exactly it, with the pyrotechnics, what should happen most of the time, Don Bliss says, a Fire Marshal should go out with the person who is going to be setting off the pyrotechnics, after they apply for the permit, do a test of the pyrotechnics to see how it's going to happen and then a Fire Marshal or Fire Inspector should be at the establishment the night the pyrotechnics are used.
NEVILLE: Interesting point. But, a lot of times, these bands arrive that day. We'll find out shortly from on a guy who sets up pyros for concerts his name is, Pyro Pete. In the mean time, you know, we told you we're going to be listening to -- waiting for a news conference from Domenic Santana, who is the owner of the Stone Pony club. As soon as that happens, we'll bring that to you live. And, Mike Brooks, thanks again for always bringing us so much information to TALKBACK LIVE do appreciate it.
You know pyrotechnics, right, at concerts, add flair to the show. The question is, how safe are they? We're going to ask the guy I told you about, Pyro Pete. He's a Special Effects Designer for entertainers such as the Rolling Stones and Tina Turner. He knows what he's talking about. Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, a concert with pyrotechnics makes the show more exciting for a lot of people, but are they dangerous? We'll talk to a music industry attorney who says last night's fire at a Rhode Island nightclub was an accident waiting to happen.
Then, are the U.S. and Turkey close to closing a deal? And, what is it going to cost? The talk continues after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSELL: We in advance shows and they -- we will say this is what we have, this is what it does; is it okay to use here or not. Some places say yes, no problem; other places say no we can't do that, so we don't do it. It's not like a-like a big part of the show, you know. Tonight we had the permission to do it, to set it up. And it must have hit the foam stuff, and whatever that is must have been very combustible, obviously, and it went off, I mean I can't believe how fast if went off. The thing to me, that was the worst thing I think, was the lights going out. I think if they would have stayed on, more people would have got out, to see their way out of there, you know, I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK, Jack Russell, lead singer for Great White. We want to let you know that Great White performed at the Stone Pony February 14. We're waiting to hear from Domenic Santana, who's the owner of the Stone Pony. Mr. Santana said Great White used pyrotechnics there at his club but they did not have approval. We're waiting for that news conference, when it happens, we'll bring it live on CNN.
In the meantime, last night's fire at the Rhode Island nightclub during the Great White concert killed more than 80 people. It apparently was triggered by a pyrotechnic display. How dangerous are the shows we're talking about right now? Peter Thall he is a music industry attorney and author of "What They'll Never Tell You About the Music Business," and on the phone Pete Cappadocia, also know as Pyro Pete, he has been a special effects designer for entertainers since 1982. Pyro Pete has prepared shows for the likes of the Rolling Stones, Tina Turner and AC/DC. And Pete, first of all, walk us through the approval process and tell us if it varies from venue to venue.
PETE CAPPADOCIA, "PYRO PETE," SPECIAL EFFECTS DESIGNER: The approval process varies from state to state, venue to venue, country to country.
In general, you want to have as much lead time as you can to get all of your information together into a coherent package, then get that information to both the venue and the fire department. Because the local fire department has--or the authority having jurisdiction is the one who is going to give or deny you your permit.
Also, the building has the opportunity to say whether they want pyrotechnics used in their building or not. Some buildings just flat don't want pyrotechnics of any kind in their building. Some states don't want pyrotechnics of any kind, and because of whether it's a law that's been on the books for a long time or whether it's an incident that's happened. There's -- the procedure for get getting a permit varies from night to day, from state to state. But, in general, it usually takes anywhere from two weeks to six weeks to get a permit, and then that's counting the demo process which you have to do...
NEVILLE: So, you have to do a demo process every time, even a nightclub like this one, The Station.
CAPPADOCIA: Particularly a nightclub like this. Usually, once you design a show, you have your show design; you submit your show design to the fire department, and to the venue, the venue engineers will look at it and say this is too big to fit in our room, you know. If you can catch that well in advance, you can make arrangements to get some smaller devices and use smaller pyrotechnics. You have to fit the show to the room.
NEVILLE: Right.
CAPPADOCIA: I'm currently working with a band and we're going from large venues to small venues and we have an "A" and a "B" show. That, if it's a large venue, we've got the "A" show; if it's a smaller venue, we have the "B" show. And it's a completely different set of material of pyrotechnic product that's used. But there is -- yes, there is a 99 percent of the cities, there is a demo process, whether -- let me change that, it's 100 percent of the cities want a demo, in 99 percent of them, you'll be shooting product. Some of them, if it's a very simple effect and the effect is going to go five to ten feet and you've got 30 to 100 feet, let's just say, or 20 to 30 feet of clearance, the fire department at that particular venue may say well, you don't need to demo the effect. We'll -- we will have fire department on stand-by.
NEVILLE: But nonetheless, Pyro Pete, excuse me, but nonetheless, then that means it's going to be difficult for a club own to say, you know what, I didn't know they were going to do it. Or can a band sneak it in at the last minute? I mean not at the last minute, but would it plan to do it without telling the club owner?
CAPPADOCIA: Yes. Unfortunately, there's an underground conduit, which anybody can get on the Internet and purchase pyrotechnics illegally, then they can bring them around and put them in a club -- a band could come in - a band, a magician, whatever, could come in and set up whatever he wants and unless the band owner -- I'm sorry, unless the club owner specifically says are you using any pyrotechnics, he may not have thought to ask that question.
NEVILLE: OK. Pyro Pete, hang on for me because I have Peter Thall here as well.
And Peter, I understand you said you are not surprised at all that this happened?
PETER THALL, ATTORNEY: No, in my book, talking about touring in general, I discuss the area of pyrotechnics, which while it's not something that every band uses; it's been around a very long time, even the Metropolitan Opera uses it.
And it is so dangerous, these explosives which they -- these explosives which they refer to as "effects" are so dangerous that -- and there are so few standards, as Pyro Pete explained very articulately, that the danger of premature firing or a signal being set off innocently, or even more importantly, this equipment, especially that which comes through the Internet and through the underground, as Pete mentioned. This equipment is of varying levels of quality; some of it is old, some of it's been driven a lot, some of it is extemporized on the spot with different cable connections and this, and that and the other thing. It's very dangerous. There's a -- I don't know what caused this tragedy in Rhode Island, but there's -- just to give you an example of how dangerous these explosives are, there's a pyrotechnic called -- this is a fire work, basically, called ...
NEVILLE: Right, and Peter, we all know that a lot of young people, in particular, they love to see these shows with pyrotechnics.
THALL: You know, I know they do. Well again, they've been around a long time and the opera uses them. But, you know, that's a whole other issue that you're raising, which is why do we need such stimulation? In the '60s, you know, we had sound and light shows or light shows behind the bands. But kids and adults even these days seem to always want more and more stimulation, whether it's in drugs or whether it's in pyrotechnics or whatever. But, I was mentioning earlier, there's a fire work called a "Pyro Pack Grid Rocket," which is so powerful and it moves so quickly that it's supposed to travel; I think Pete would probably know this, 120 feet in three seconds, levelly across the ground. This one went straight up 20 feet.
NEVILLE: Peter, you know, that's interesting. I have to take a break here, but if you'd stand by for me, Peter Thall and Pyro Pete Cappadocia. I want to remind you, we're waiting to hear from Domenic Santana, he is the owner of the Stone Pony in Asbury Park, New Jersey. He will tell us about Great White having performed at his club February 14 and perhaps did so used pyrotechnics without permission. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, everybody, we're going to go to Asbury Park, New Jersey, right now. The Stone Pony nightclub, where owner, Domenic Santana is talking about his experience with Great White.
DOMENIC SANTANA, OWNER, STONE PONY NIGHTCLUB: Before we go into advance mode, which is usually a week out, our general manager calls the tour manager and advances all the details. With that in details, we speak with lighting, you speak about sound, you speak about hospitality, you speak about accommodation, you speak about transportation, you speak about many issues and you try to get a handle of what exactly -- who, what, when, and where. On this event, on February 14, not once were we told that there were going to be any pyrotechnics whatsoever. Therefore, you move into your production date.
Your production date is when the stage manager meets -- you meet loaders, you meet the technical team, you get the show to roll in. You position everybody and everybody knows who, what, when and where. At that point, we still did not know that they were going to have any pyrotechnics. Basically, the final stage, when it's show time, when the show strikes and you see these flash pots, sparklers, pyrotechnics, whatever you want to call them, your stage manager and your security now becomes on high alert status.
I was in the back office myself and I heard through the radio communications, "What the hell is going on," for we did not know that they were going to have pyrotechnics for we would not have allowed them to have pyrotechnics. At that point, Chris, the stage manager for the night, ran over to the tour manager and asked him, "What the hell are you doing? You have to stop right now. We do not allow pyrotechnics." At that point, security was on the area ready to move in and stop the show. By that time, it fizzled out and the show went on without a hitch. Thank god that we're still here today to speak about that.
Basically, it's just very sad to know that right now, we personally are affected by it, for I've taken it as a terrorist threat that band members come in and allow position -- the safety of people's lives on the line without us knowing. So, after today, we'll have meetings on what to look for, for the future, not to allow this situation to ever happen again. At this point, I just want to invite Jim -- Jim, you want to take the mic first? Where's Jimbo?
QUESTION: Spell your name.
SANTANA: Domenic, d-o-m-e-n-i-c Santana, s-a-n-t-a-n-a. I'll come back for questions and answers. But, I just want these guys to give you their side. JIM MACDONALD, DJ: On that evening, I was here as a DJ. However in other venues, in other situations, I'm normally the one presented with these problems, such as if a promoter is requested to provide pyrotechnics or provide the situation for pyrotechnics; they'll call me to have a state license pyrotech on the premises. If they had, I could have had the guy from kiss here, but we did not know. I happened to be here, with no knowledge of what was going on, was walking away from the stage, noticed it was going on behind me, stopped dead in my tracks and just kind of hoped nothing would happen. If something happened, hoped I could field it properly. I do feel really bad for both the club industry as a whole and in particular, for all the people that were hurt in that fire, and I do hope that we all manage to recover from it. I kind of am speechless on the subject, it's one of those heavy things.
QUESTION: Say who you are, again?
MACDONALD: I'm Jim MacDonald. I've been part of this industry and this house for a great many years. It would normally be my problem to deal with these situations. Is there anything I can...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
MACDONALD: MacDonald? m-a-c capital d-o-n-a-l-d.
SANTANA: All right, well, basically, Jim has a lot of experience. He's done various shows. He's a freelance production guy; he's one of the best out there, done mega, big, world class shows. So, you know, his expertise, you know, to a venue like this, you know, we count on people like him to be able to spot and, you know, check on things and you know, it's all by the wayside.
QUESTION: Jack Russell, the lead singer this morning said he'd gone to the club manager and got permission. Do you think that's diverting his responsibility?
SANTANA: In this venue, he did not get permission from nowhere?
QUESTION: He said he did.
SANTANA: Yeah, I'm speaking right now on this venue, they did do pyrotechnics and they did not have any whatsoever inclination as far as that we would allow such ...
QUESTION: He says he didn't tell you, but says he told the Rhode Island club.
SANTANA: All I know is that, you know, once I heard that this morning -- that he had told them -- to me as a club owner, if he had told them why didn't then the club have fire extinguishers to be able to extinguish it. So that to me, right there tells me; if you were to have told me that you were going to do pyrotechnics and if I didn't have fire extinguishers on stage, which they would have been able to extinguish it, something's wrong there.
QUESTION: More of the blame should be on the promoter and the band?
SANTANA: On the band.
QUESTION: Than the owners of the nightclub?
SANTANA: Absolutely. Absolutely.
QUESTION: So you really believe in your heart, that these owners did not know the band was going to use pyrotechnics?
SANTANA: From experience. You're looking at him. We did not know, and they did it right here. And we could have been in the situation that many people were last night.
So right now, the guy who I'm going to have his head for, because he was responsible for allowing this to slip by, and he's kind of nervous because he realized the pressure that we're going to be putting on the whole system in procedures here, he was the stage manager, so he's basically responsible for what happened on this stage. Chris?
QUESTION: Can you give us your name, and spell it, please?
CHRIS GLOWACKI, STAGE MANAGER, STONE PONY: Chris, C-h-r-i-s. Glowacki, G-l-o-w-a-c-k-i. My position that night was stage manager.
QUESTION: Can you tell us what happened then?
GLOWACKI: During that night, as you've already heard, I was not informed that there were going to be any pyrotechnics involved in this show.
I feel that in a situation where there are pyrotechnics, since I am generally the contact between the band and the club, if the club has not already been told, then I definitely should be told by the band, in which event I would then go to the club owner or manager and say, "Is this OK?"
QUESTION: Describe what you saw and your surprise when these pyrotechnics began.
GLOWACKI: My surprise is very, very inexplicable. I had absolutely no expectation that there would be any pyrotechnics that night.
And my shock was, you know, oh, my God, what's happening? What's going to happen next? You know, how is this going to have an effect on us?
You know, is the ceiling, is the stage, anything going to happen, or is this going to go on without incident and thank God, that night, there were no incidents. We were lucky.
QUESTION: Was this right off the bat when the show started? Describe how it all began. GLOWACKI: Great white takes the stage and during their first song, they come on stage just as they did last night, as already seen in the videotaping. They come on stage, the music starts, and the sparks, the pyrotechnics are somewhat of an introduction, a crowd thriller, like you would see on a professional wrestling show or something else. Very similar.
It's just, it's basically to excite the crowd at the beginning of their set.
QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
GLOWACKI: Yes. I was afraid that something is going to happen by those sparks coming off the stage, because I have never dealt with pyrotechnics in this club. I have never, honestly, dealt with pyrotechnics in any other club.
Yes, I have seen pyrotechnics before, but in a much bigger arena. And again, had we been informed that there were going to be pyrotechnics, we could have taken some necessary precautions to either make sure that everything was going to be safe, that the pyrotechnics were going to be limited, or get rid of the pyrotechnics altogether before they were even set off. Which would have most likely been the course of action.
QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) might change rock 'n' roll. Can you guess how it might change?
GLOWACKI: Unfortunately, because of a lack of, lack of age and in-depth experience, I would not be able to predict how anything would change. All I can say for myself is only time will show me what will happen.
That may be a question better addressed to one of the older people on site.
QUESTION: I don't quite understand one aspect of your description. If the band started with pyrotechnics, at the beginning of their show, why wasn't it stopped right then and there? Why was it allowed to continue?
GLOWACKI: Why was the show allowed to continue?
QUESTION: The pyrotechnics.
GLOWACKI: There were no other pyrotechnics throughout the show. It was that one incident of pyrotechnics. There were no returning pyrotechnics throughout the show.
QUESTION: How long did it last, seconds, minutes?
GLOWACKI: Seconds.
QUESTION: Somebody may have asked this already. Did they sneak this stuff on? How did you miss it?
GLOWACKI: During a set change like that, there are many things that need to be done.
The band that is on the stage before the headlining act, in this case, needs to be removed from the stage. Their equipment moved out of the loading area, directly to stage right, because we need to make room for the headlining act to get on the stage, bring some extra equipment onto the stage that we needed to do move earlier to make room for opening acts.
QUESTION: Are you saying it was probably brought on between sets, between acts?
GLOWACKI: Yes. And in the course...
QUESTION: And it was overlooked?
GLOWACKI: Yes. In that course of action, during that time, during those few minutes of the changeover, there are many responsibilities that I am going through, like I said, getting the other band off the stage, getting the headliners' gear on the stage, making sure that the artists get from the dressing room to the stage.
There are many aspects that I'm looking at that one time. And the piece could have easily been snuck onto the stage without my noticing.
QUESTION: What do they look, a couple of stands, flash pots, or sparklers? Or what?
GLOWACKI: It would be...
QUESTION: You must have seen them after the fact, right, what they looked like? Are they short stubby things? What came out of them?
GLOWACKI: That I cannot describe very much. Because I did not -- I did not, before the pyrotechnics happened see the piece that projected them, and after the show, also, really did not get a good look at what was launching the pyrotechnics.
QUESTION: When it went off, what did it look like to you?
GLOWACKI: There were just sparks flying in directions, up from the stage. Towards the ceiling, bounced back down a little bit. Again, we were very fortunate.
QUESTION: Bounce into the crowd at all?
GLOWACKI: No, down on to the stage. Similar to the video you saw this morning.
SANTANA: We actually, unlike the video did have less than Rhode Island had. We only had the centerpiece that you see in that footage, which was placed in front of the drums. We did not have the two outside pieces that you see in that.
I guess that the ceiling was a little higher up in Rhode Island and they thought that they could do it.
This morning, I spoke with a professional pyrotechnician who handles the Meadowlands and many other venues.
And he let me know one of the requirements, before they enter the state of New Jersey or any other state, they are required to notify the state authorities that they are carrying that magazine with them, and then, you know, also notifying us to take the proper precautions.
One of the things about it that, you know, when I first noticed it I thought that that band were putting themselves at great risk. Our ceiling's just over ten foot and the sparks were bouncing back, you know, quite feverishly. And between, you know, their hair, their clothing and their eyes, I thought that they themselves were putting themselves at risk.
NEVILLE: We've been listening to a news conference coming out of Asbury Park, New Jersey. The club is the Stone Pony. Domenic Santana, owner of that club, said Great White performed there February 14, used pyrotechnics in the show, and did not get approval.
We still have on the phone with us Pete Cappadocia, who is known as Pyro Pete. He is a pyrotechnician.
And Pete, you know, the stage manager there -- the stage manager at the Stone Pony, his name is Chris Glowacki, he said he had no idea that the Great White band was going to be using pyrotechnics. Is that possible?
CAPPADOCIA: That's very possible. It's very easy. Just as, you know, a kid can go steal the keys to the car and go take it around the block, for them to, when loading they're loading in their gear, the device that they look like they had there looks like they had three fountains that shot 15 or 20 feet in the air, burned -- I tried to time it on my stop watch using the footage that you guys are showing. Looks to be burning approximately ten seconds.
That device is a very small device. It's very easy, very easy to sneak in. And wouldn't even need to be snuck in. Could have just been brought in, placed down.
And in the scale of drum risers and back line equipment and gear that's normally brought on the stage, it's maybe two to three times the size of a pack of cigarettes.
NEVILLE: Wow. So Pete, I'm running short on time here. But before we let you go, tell me this.
Even under a controlled environment, under which circumstances you work in, what could possibly happen? What could possibly go wrong?
CAPPADOCIA: Anything could go wrong. Fireworks, pyrotechnics -- I just have one quick thing. The lawyer that wrote a book and talked about pyrotechnics was interesting because he talked about explosives. We don't use explosives. Explosives is a different class; it burns faster, it explodes. Our stuff does not explode. There's a different between explosion and deflagration and combustion.
What we use is -- burns slow. It's made for visual impact. Yes, it's hot; yes, it could set things on fire.
Like they mentioned earlier, if they'd have known they were going to use pyrotechnics, they would have had additional fire extinguishers. Part of getting a permit, if the building had 10 fire extinguishers, but I'm going to do pyrotechnics, I know that I have to bring in additional fire extinguishers.
As the fire department would also tell me to bring in additional fire extinguishers because I now have increased the odds of causing a fire in that building.
NEVILLE: Indeed.
CAPPADOCIA: Thus needing more fire suppression.
NEVILLE: Well, "Pyro" Pete Cappadocia, thank you very much for lending your expertise and insider information on that particular angle of the story. We do appreciate it.
By the way, I want to let you know that Jack Russell, who is the lead singer for Great White, will be on Connie Chung's show tonight. You want to catch that at 8 eastern, 5 pacific. And she's also going to have some fans who lived through last night's disaster. So be sure to catch "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT" on CNN.
And we will be right back with more TALKBACK LIVE.
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NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Two top Turkish officials say they're optimistic that the U.S. and Turkey will soon reach a deal, possibly as soon as today.
Now, the two countries have been wrangling for weeks over what it's going to take for Turkey to allow the U.S. troops to operate from its bases. White house spokesman Ari Fleischer had this to say.
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ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: The United States has noted the statements made by Turkish officials. This is a serious matter and our good friend and ally, Turkey, its taking it seriously. And we are continuing to talk to Turkish officials and we look forward to having more to say and more to indicate at the appropriate time. We continue to talk with our good friends.
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NEVILLE: OK. We're going to meet our panel right now, Niger Innis is the national spokesman for the Congress of Racial Equality. Leslie Marshall is a radio talk show host on KLAC in Los Angeles. Eric Liu is a former domestic policy adviser to President Clinton and Eleana Gordon is the policy coordinator for the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
Welcome to all of you. Niger, you're up first. Looks like, OK, Turkey and the U.S. will strike a deal. Do you think Turkey will get what they want?
NIGER INNIS, CONGRESS OF RACIAL EQUALITY: I think that there will be a negotiated settlement. It's not a question of if Turks are going to cooperate with the United States in this endeavor, it's a question of how. And that's the only question.
They are a good ally, they have been a strong ally. They have a precarious situation. They are a secular government, but they have an Islamic state, culturally. And that is the condition that the government is in. It's in a precarious position, so it wants to get as much cover as possible.
But in the final analysis, they will cooperate and be side-by- side with the United States in the liberation of Iraq.
NEVILLE: Leslie, do you blame Turkey for holding out for financial aid?
LESLIE MARSHALL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No. I mean, everybody cares about themselves, right? Covering their other butt. Turkey's covering their own butt.
They're saying, hey, look, America, we need cash. We need a lot of money and we know you're willing to pay because you want to go to war and you need our soil for your troops. So pay up.
And you know what? The United States is going to take out their checkbook because our president, George W. Bush, wants to go to war, wants to go after Saddam Hussein by any means necessary, it would seem, even paying or the Turks for land to do so. It's almost embarrassing.
NEVILLE: Eric, do you find it to be embarrassing?
ERIC LIU, FORMER CLINTON ADVISER: Well, I wouldn't say it's embarrassing, necessarily, but I will tell you, I mean, I agree.
But the fact is here it's not just about cover, it's about leverage here. And Turkey has had an enormous amount of leverage over us the last few days precisely because this administration has been so clumsy in its diplomacy that they know that the United States has been much more isolated on this kind of move to war than we might otherwise would be.
And Turkey knew that we were looking for friends right now, and we need friends and they knew that they could hold out on us and get maximum leverage against us.
NEVILLE: OK, so Eleana, you know, I'm sure you've read, that the people of Turkey are -- most of them are opposed to war. So how do you think the government of Turkey will fare with the people, seeing that they are possibly or probably going to strike a deal with the U.S.?
ELEANA GORDON, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Well, it's a democratically elected government. We have to remember that. So they do need to prove to their people that they are going to make sure the United States understands what its needs are.
And I think the good thing about this is it's a democracy and we want to continue to promote Muslim democracies in the Middle East. I think it's self-serving to think that the Clinton Administration would have had any easier a time, that their diplomacy would have been any better.
The bottom line is Turkey is a friend, they will have an economic price to pay and we need to be a country that stands by our friends, just as we are a country that's known for defeating our enemies.
NEVILLE: All right, Eleana. I'm not sure if you answered my question, but all right. Time for a break.
We're talk about something else when we come back. And that is, should a woman who leaves her six kids home alone while she goes on a Roman holiday get them back? Was it abuse to leave them on their own? We'll talk about it after this break. The talk continues in a moment.
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NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
A Greeley, Colorado, woman and her boyfriend have returned home from a 17-day vacation in Italy to find two of her children, two of her six children in state custody.
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(voice-over) Now Jennifer Farrell, seen there, left the children, ranging in age from 6 to 14, by themselves. She says she had planned for family and friends to check on the kids while she was away. She left them with a credit card, $7, and a fully stocked kitchen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Farrell, were the children actually left home alone, or had you made other arrangements for them?
JENNIFER FARRELL: Several contacts. Everything was well planned.
HANK DEPETRO, BOYFRIEND OF FARRELL: You know, people were going to kind of fill in and her parents came up and so on. And I think that there was just kind of a breakdown in some communication and that type of thing.
But I know that it's hurt her a lot and I know that she feels badly about it.
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NEVILLE: OK, now investigators say Farrell could have left the children with nearby relatives or even the children's father. Farrell is confident she will get her children back.
OK, Leslie, should Jennifer get her children back?
MARSHALL: No! Why is she having six children when she doesn't like them enough to stay with them? The woman is smiling as she's being interviewed. She really looks distraught, doesn't she, Arthel, about leaving her kids alone?
And what about the daddy? That is the great question. Where is daddy?
NEVILLE: Well, the dad...
MARSHALL: And why do courts always seem to give kids to the mommies, who may not be sufficient parents for them in the first place?
I cannot understand, I cannot comprehend when there are so many women in America trying to desperately to have one child...
NEVILLE: Amen.
MARSHALL: ... how a woman who is blessed to have six children doesn't care enough about them to have her parents watch them.
And once again, I think we need a banner across the United States of America that says, "Hello! Where are our fathers?" Because the father said that she was -- he thought that she was not a fit parent to begin with. So A, how come the court gave her custody? And B, where is daddy? And C, this is a perfect example of how women have loins just like men and she followed her lust to Italy.
NEVILLE: And you know, the father of the children, the ex- husband, did file a complaint that she was an unfit mother.
MARSHALL: Right. So where was he? Why wasn't he going to the house to take care of the children? This is absolutely ridiculous.
And we wonder why we have an increase of crime among our youth and we wonder why, oh, the United States is going to heck in a handbag. This is why, because parents don't care about parenting. They're selfish and we're raising selfish children because of this.
And these children, I feel, were neglected and I feel that the social services were right to take them away. Unfortunately...
NEVILLE: OK. I have to take a break. Excuse me, I know you're passionate and I do appreciate that. But I have to take a break and talk to the rest of the panel when we come back.
Would you return Jennifer Farrell's children to her? We're going to talk about that and hear from Niger, Eric and Eleana when we come back.
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NEVILLE: OK, panel, yes or no. Would you give Jennifer Farrell's back to her, Niger? Niger?
INNIS: Yes, but the father has the right to sue for custody again.
NEVILLE: OK, Eric?
LIU: No, but I think the real issue is what we do in society to teach parents at the front end of the pipeline about how to be parents, how to be better parents.
NEVILLE: Eleana?
GORDON: I hope there's another family relative that can take them.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, Niger Innis, Leslie Marshall, Eric Liu, Eleana Gordon, thank so much for being here on TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. "INSIDE POLITICS" is next, Judy Woodruff. Don't go anywhere.
JUDY WOODRUFF, "INSIDE POLITICS" HOST: Thanks, Arthel. Next on "INSIDE POLITICS," tragedy in Rhode Island. At least 86 die as fast moving flames engulf a nightclub.
Did the band have permission to light up pyrotechnics? We'll go live to the scene.
Also ahead, the race for the White House. Does anyone have an early lead in the hunt for the Democratic presidential nomination? We'll take a look.
Plus, in American eyes, are the French fried? We'll examine what's behind the love lost between Americans and the French.
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