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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
As War Looms, How Will Saddam Strike Back?; Club Owners, Band Dispute Who Knew What About Fiery Show That Killed Nearly 100 Concertgoers
Aired February 25, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight -- if there's a war, how will Saddam Hussein strike back?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: As war with Iraq looms....
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think one of the biggest dangers we face, if we go to war, is how he treats innocent life.
ANNOUNCER: ... how will Saddam strike back?
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: With respect to chemical, biological capabilities, they are, in my judgment, probably more lethal and dangerous today than they would have been back in '91.
ANNOUNCER: Is the U.S. ready for the worst?
The search for answers.
JEFFREY DERDERIAN, STATION CLUB OWNER: We want to cooperate fully, and again, we, you know, just want to make sure this doesn't happen again.
ANNOUNCER: The club owners and the band whose act sparked the fiery blaze, dispute who knew what about the fiery show that killed nearly 100 concertgoers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tour manager of the band had a lengthy conversation with Mike Derderian got very specific permission from Mr. Derderian.
ANNOUNCER: Hollywood murder mystery. Robert Blake prepares for the next act of a true crime drama. Will Blake's jailhouse interview end up as Must See-TV as he returns to court?
Bacon and sausage, steaks and chops. Just what the doctor ordered? It is according to dieters Geri Haliwell, Matthew Perry and Catherine Zeta-Jones. Tonight, the Atkins plan steps up to the plate in the "Diet Challenge."
And, our "Person of the Day," flying high over high water.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening.
President Bush said today that only one thing can prevent a war with Iraq: complete disarmament. As diplomats at the U.N. wrangled over a new resolution submitted by the U.S., Britain and Spain, the president vowed to go it alone if necessary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Obviously, we'd like to have a positive vote, that's why we've submitted a Security Council resolution, along with Great Britain and Spain. But as I said all along, it would be helpful and useful, but I don't believe we need a second resolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: President Bush also warned that President Saddam Hussein would try -- quote -- to fool the world one more time -- unquote -- by revealing weapons he previously denied he had. And Mr. Bush called on the U.N. Security Council to honor its word.
CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Baghdad tonight. Just a short time ago, I spoke with him.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Nic, do you get the feeling there people are preparing for war or are already prepared for war?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, they're preparing.
There's a lot of concern here, the people we talk to say that the thing that worries them most is the bombing. They talk about how, in 1991, they weren't able to leave the city. They stayed in their homes, perhaps wrapped their children in bed covers to try and protect them when the bombs fell near their houses. But people are trying to take precautions, buying extra water, buying extra food, some people even building wells in their gardens.
Some people are actually taking their families out of Iraq, but that is really a minority. Most people here can't afford to do that. That's what worries the U.N. and other aid agencies here; they don't think Iraqi people have enough food supplies to withstand the long war. They say that most people's food would run out within about six weeks, Connie.
CHUNG: Nic, has Baghdad responded to the new U.N. resolution that's been proposed by the United States and Britain? ROBERTSON: I'd say the way Iraq is really trying to deal with that at the moment is to encourage as much opposition to the United States, Great Britain, Spain and Italy at this time. There are articles in the newspapers here putting forward the position, France putting forward the position of Germany saying that, you know, German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder opposes a new U.N. resolution.
So Iraq's method of dealing with, it although there's no official response -- they have said they don't believe a second resolution is necessary, but the way of dealing with it, if you will, is to do whatever they can to make the gaps of the U.N. Security Council even wider on this issue.
CHUNG: All right. Nic Robertson, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: President Bush went even further in his remarks today, warning that Saddam Hussein may attack his own citizens if he's confronted with an invasion. But Mr. Bush warned, if that happens, the consequences will be dire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I think one of the biggest dangers we face, and if we go to war is how he treats innocent life. And it is important for Iraqi leadership,and Iraqi generals to clearly understand that if they take innocent life, if they destroy infrastructure, they will be held to account as war criminals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: War seems more imminent now than ever before, but how will the Iraqi leader retaliate if he's attacked?
General Wesley Clark is the former NATO supreme commander and joins us from our Washington bureau.
Eric Margolis has covered Iraq for 25 years and is an expert on its military. He joins us from Boynton Beach, Florida.
Good evening, gentlemen, and thank you for being with us.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: General Clark, Secretary Rumsfeld said today Iraq's conventional military forces are much weaker than they were before the Persian Gulf War, about 50 percent less effective. Is that true?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: We think that's true.
We think he's lost about half of his heavy formation, that his equipment has not been replaced and even the equipment that's remaining is probably less capable than it was a decade ago. Clearly our advantage. Eric Margolis, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld also made another claim today, and that is that biological and chemical weapons in Iraq, he says, are much more deadly today. Is that true?
ERIC MARGOLIS, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: I don't think so.
I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that nor have the U.N. inspectors seen it, nor have European intelligence agencies. In fact, there's considerable doubt whether Iraq has any left or, if it does have chemical or biological weapons that were made before 1991, if they're still biologically potent or active. You know, these weapons degrade over four to six years -- or if he has the capability to disperse them. These are both biological and chemical weapons. They're crude weapons. They're not really effective battlefield weapons unless dispersed in mists and by special vehicles and planes. Iraq clearly does not have these.
CHUNG: All right.
General Clark, back in 1991, the Iraqis burned the oil fields in Kuwait. Are they going to use the same strategy in their own country, and if they do, why?
CLARK: Well, they may go after the oil fields.
My guess is they're more likely to go after the people themselves because they know that there's a lot of animosity from both the Kurds in the north and the Shi'a Iranians -- Iraqis in the South. And I think it's very possible that he'll go after them with these chemical or biological weapons in the guise of going after our own troops. He may shoot them at us, but we're inoculated and protected and we're moving, and the people that will take the brunt of this will be these civilian populations, his own citizens.
CHUNG: And why would he do that?
CLARK: He would do that because if he can create a major humanitarian catastrophe, it's going to impede our operation, and he'll be able to blame it on us.
Now we wouldn't...
CHUNG: You mean he'll actually suggest that we were the ones who let loose of these biological weapons?
CLARK: Absolutely he will suggest it. And there will be many people around the world who will probably believe it, even though it couldn't be further from the truth.
CHUNG: All right. Mr. Margolis, what kind of resistance will U.S. troops confront when they do move north from -- when they move north in Iraq and when they move south from Turkey?
MARGOLIS: My estimate is that the regular Iraqi army troops are about 380,000 of them, will probably put up very spotty resistance. Some units will disintegrate, others will stand and fight, but they can't -- they don't have much in the way of weapons.
The Iraqis have nothing with which to stop American tanks, except at point-blank range. Their tanks can't do it, their anti-tank weapons can't do it. They'll have no air force left after day one. So only their artillery arm is fairly effective.
But as U.S. pushes closer to Baghdad from the south, resistance will stiffen. I believe the Iraqi resistance will collapse quickly in the north as the U.S. takes the Kirkuk and Mosul area.
But once they get to Baghdad, Saddam Hussein has proclaimed that Baghdad, a sprawling city of 5 million people, will be turned into a second Stalingrad, and here his 80,000 to 100,000 good, reliable troops will dig in and give the U.S. a very difficult time unless President Hussein is assassinated or killed quickly.
CHUNG: General Clark, how long would this war last?
CLARK: My guess would be a couple of weeks, and I get that figure from assuming that we'll move in on the ground almost simultaneously as we begin the airstrikes. There will be a lot of uprisings in the north and the south that will collapse the Iraqi resistance very quickly, except in the vicinity of Baghdad and Tikrit.
And then in that area, that will be there probably five, six days and with the right kind of pressure on the Iraqis, most of those forces will collapse.
After a couple of weeks, there may be some hard heads that are left, there may be pockets in Baghdad that take a little bit more time to dig out. But remember, there's also a Shi'a population in Baghdad. And they're not going to be supportive of Saddam Hussein. So when he retreats into Baghdad, he does so with a dagger his in back.
CHUNG: General Clark, I think the burning question is what will happen to Saddam Hussein? Will he surrender? Will he escape? Will he commit suicide? Is there another scenario?
CLARK: Well, I'd be surprised if he defects or gives up his power before the attack.
I think there's a possibility he'll try to cut and run as the forces close in on him, and when it's clear that he can't stand successfully in Baghdad. I'd be surprised if he committed suicide. He may get shot in the attempt to escape or maybe his own officers will turn against him and haul him in or turn him over to us.
CHUNG: All right. Eric Margolis, in five seconds, what do you think is going to happen to Saddam?
MARGOLIS: I think he's going to be killed either by his own men or he'll go down fighting. I don't think this very tough man is going to run away.
CHUNG: All right.
Eric Margolis, General Wesley Clark, we thank you so much for being with us.
MARGOLIS: You're welcome.
CHUNG: Progress on a deal with a bulky ally tops tonight's "World in 60."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): The Turkish government official handed Parliament a proposal permitting 62,000 American troops to be based in Turkey for at least six months. Parliament is expected to vote tomorrow or Thursday.
The U.S. is downplaying North Korea's launch of a missile into the Sea of Japan, saying it was designed to upstage today's inauguration of South Korea's new president, Roh Moo-hyun. North Korea's also accusing the U.S. of flying a spy plane into its airspace.
In China home made explosives rocked two universities in Beijing. Nine people were injured. Meanwhile the death toll from Monday's devastating earthquake rose to over 300 people. More than 2,000 were injured there.
In Venezuela, two blasts ripped through the Spanish Embassy and the Colombian Consulate in the capital Caracas. A group loyal to President Hugo Chavez is being blamed. Venezuela is in the midst of a political crisis following Chavez's attempted ouster.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, slim celebs swear by it. High protein and low carbs, the Atkins Plan weighs in for "The Diet Challenge." CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Officials in Rhode Island have subpoenaed members of the band Great White to talk to a grand jury investigating last week's deadly fire.
Meanwhile, they've identified all but four of the victims. Among those identified, the band's guitarist, Ty Longley. The band was using a fireworks display called stage gerbs. And suspicion centers on sound proofing material which might have been highly flammable.
The wooden building burned in just three minutes killing 97 people, one of the worst fires in U.S. history. One of the club's owners, Jeffrey Derderian, says he wants to provide any information he can to investigators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. DERDERIAN: We want to cooperate fully. Again, we, you know, just want to make sure this doesn't happen again. It's really what we want to do. It's an ongoing criminal investigation. We have to, you know, get all the answers that we can, and we're doing it. But I have to say it again that the concern must be with the families that have been affected by this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: But the state's attorney general says the owners are only talking to the press not to the authorities.
Also in question, did Great White have permission to use fireworks in the club? Ed McPherson is the attorney who's representing the band and he joins us now from Los Angeles. Ed, thanks for being with us, good evening.
ED MCPHERSON, ATTY., GREAT WHITE: Thank you, good evening.
CHUNG: You said that the band's tour manager called Mike Derderian, one of the owners, a week before the concert. Did they talk about using pyrotechnics?
MCPHERSON: Absolutely. That's one of the important reasons that Dan Beakly (ph), the tour manager called Mike Derderian to do what's called advancing of the show. And as part of that advancing, Dan asked Mike -- first of all, he told Mike what was going to be involved with the particular special effects that the band wanted to use, and asked specific permission from Mike Derderian to use these particular special effects. Mike Derderian gave that permission, and so they were used.
CHUNG: Did either of them talk about a special permit or license to use the pyrotechnics?
MCPHERSON: I'm not sure if they talked about that specifically, although I'll tell you that the custom and practice of the band in and particularly the tour manager was to discuss it sufficiently in advance of each venue with the venue owners, so that the venue owners could obtain the proper permits, have time to obtain the proper permits, so by the time the band got there, for that particular show, they would either be in place or they could meet with fire marshals or do whatever was necessary in that particular state.
CHUNG: So what you're suggesting is the band members through the tour manager or someone who represents the band would always call ahead, tell about the pyrotechnics that would be used so that the clubs or the band itself would get the permits necessary?
MCPHERSON: That is absolutely correct. And they essentially relied on the club, number one, to know what was inside the club as far as fire retardant, as far as sprinklers, as far as fire extinguishers.
And number two, the clubs would know the local authorities, would have dealt with them on literally a daily basis and known what kind of permits were necessary so that the clubs could get them from the local authorities. CHUNG: But officials at clubs in four different states have said that Great White appeared at their clubs and did not give prior notice to using pyrotechnics. One of them was in Bangor, Maine and that was two days before this tragedy occurred.
MCPHERSON: Connie, all I can say, is I have a few things in response to that. Number one, as I said, it was the custom and practice of the tour manager for every single venue that the band was going to, to get this prior permission.
Number two, it's my understanding that in every venue in which this band played for this tour, in which they used special effects they had permission from the club owner the or promoter or whoever was designated as the club representative.
It's also my understanding that just as many clubs have come out and said, wait a second, I had this very conversation with Dan Beakly, I told Dan Beakly with respect to our particular club he could not use the special effects that the band wanted to use, and Dan said fine, that was, it end of story.
CHUNG: You just suggested in your earlier answer that the club -- that the band would always check and see if there were sprinklers there. There in fact were no sprinklers at the Station.
MCPHERSON: No, no, no. I didn't suggest that the band would check to see if the sprinklers were there. What I said was that the band would check with the venue to make sure it was OK to use these particular type of special effects because the venue was in an unique position, in fact, an exclusive position to know whether it had sprinklers, to know whether it had fire extinguishers.
CHUNG: Don't the band members concern themselves with the safety in the club once they get there? I mean whether or not there's foam insulation, whether there are flame retardant walls, whether or not there are sprinklers, I mean, for their own safety?
MCPHERSON: They're certainly concerned with it, Connie. But they go through a venue a night and expect the venues keep the place safe. They expect the fire inspectors to keep these place safe.
Unfortunately, when the band saw there was a fire, the lead singer tried to find a fire extinguisher on the stage. There is always a fire extinguisher to the right generally to the left as well. There was none in this case.
And in fact, my understanding is there was one fire extinguisher in the entire club, and that was approximately 40 feet away from the stage at soundboard.
MCPHERSON: Ed McPherson, I thank you so much for being with us.
MCPHERSON: Thank you.
CHUNG: Still ahead, the guy that turns the government's food chart upside down. How does Atkins stack up in our "Diet Challenge"? ANNOUNCER: Next, Robert Blake set to return to court for the murder of Bonny Bakley. Will it be the first act in a sensational Hollywood murder trial? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Actor Robert Blake goes to court in Los Angeles tomorrow for a preliminary hearing to determine if he should stand trial for murdering his wife. For the first time, the public will see what sort of evidence the state has against him. The proceedings will be televised.
Blake has pleaded innocent to charges he murdered his wife, almost two years ago in May of 2001. CNN's Charles Feldman has been covering the case since it began.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If episodes of Robert Blake's TV series "Barreta" were half as interesting as the real life situation the aging actor finds himself in, it would still be on the air and that cockatoo would still be gainfully employed.
Blake, who is pushing 70, accused of shooting his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley to death after at least twice failing to convince old Hollywood stuntmen to pull the trigger for him. Blake's so-called bodyguard, Earl Caldwell, stands accused of conspiracy to commit murder.
On Wednesday, a courtroom TV camera will bring the public a spectacle not seen since, well, since the O.J. Simpson trial. That is when a preliminary hearing is set to begin to determine whether there is enough evidence to put Blake on trial. Blake's been in jail since April the murder of his wife took place in May 2001.
The cops, prosecutors say they have the goods on Blake, solid circumstantial case. But defense lawyers say be the case is built on a house of cards and Blake has had lots of lawyers talking for him.
He lost one after he tried to do a TV interview with Diane Swayer behind his lawyer's back. He lost another while he was arranging an interview with Barbara Walters. His current attorney also threatened to quit at one point.
ROBERT BLAKE, ACCUSED OF MURDERING WIFE: You're going to quit if I talk.
THOMAS MESSEREAU, BLAKE'S ATTORNEY: If you talk, if you respond to one single question in the deposition, I'm going to resign as your counsel.
FELDMAN: Now the lawyer says he stands behind him.
Things to look for during the preliminary hearing? Prosecutors may call the two stuntmen to the stand. Expect Blake's lawyer to try and knock them out of ring early on. And keep an eye on whether Blake's lawyer tries to trash Bonny Lee Bakley. A while back, Blake's lawyers released self-recorded tapes underscoring her criminal past.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BONNY LEE BAKLEY, MURDER VICTIM: I got three years probation just for having different IDs you know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Blake's health is reportedly deteriorating but the judge is still likely to order him to stand trial.
Charles Feldman, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: As you saw in Charles Feldman's report, Tom Messereau is Blake's criminal attorney. He joins us tonight from Los Angeles. Thank you, Mr. Messereau, for being with us.
MESSEREAU: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Let's talk about two potential witnesses, the two stuntmen, prosecution witnesses most likely to testify that Mr. Blake had paid them or asked them to kill his wife. How will you handle their testimony?
MESSEREAU: You've got to watch the cross-examination when I do it. I'll be in the courtroom, if they're called as live witnesses which the prosecution does not have to do. I will be the one cross- examining them.
And you want to look for issues regarding their credibility, whether they've said different statements at different times. What their background is.
And let me leave this with you, they both claim they were approached and solicited to commit a murder but neither one of them went to the police. What does that tell you?
CHUNG: Is it possible that you could actually break down their credibility at the preliminary hearing that's preventing them from testifying at the trial?
MESSEREAU: Well, if they call them as live witnesses and if the cross-examination is effective, and I guarantee you it will be if they testify, it'll be up to the prosecution as to whether or not they want to pursue those counts, because two counts revolve around these two stuntmen.
CHUNG: Is there another part of the case that you find compelling?
MESSEREAU: I think the whole case is ridiculous, frankly. I've never seen a case revolve around such incredible publicity favorable to the Los Angeles Police Department. And when you look at evidence, you see almost nothing.
CHUNG: Do you expect that your client will be freed on bail because that opportunity will come up. The judge can make that decision.
MESSEREAU: Well, I'm hoping the judge frees him on bail. I think every American has a constitutional right to bail. Unfortunately in this case the prosecutor chose to file a capital murder charge rather than a murder charge because they want to keep him locked up.
They know he's 70-years-old, they know he's severely dyslexic. They know he's in declining health. They knew it would be difficult for him to be locked up in county jail for 10 months and that's how long it's been. And they felt it would hamper the defense. And that's why they tacked on that charge. There's no real evidence to even support that allegation.
CHUNG: Is he anxious for this preliminary hearing? Is he anxious to be on television? It is being televised.
MESSEREAU: Well, Mr. Blake is anxious to see justice done. He's anxious to get his day in court. He's anxious to be accorded all of the rights and privileges and protections that all American citizens are supposed to have.
Unfortunately in this case before Robert Blake even had a chance to present his defense, before he had a chance to say what really happened, he was condemned in the media for two full years. He's very frustrated by that.
CHUNG: Now, in a deposition in which Robert Blake was questioned by an attorney for Bonny Lee Bakley's family, you were there and you admonished him. Telling him he should not answer any of the questions being asked by the attorney, Eric Dubin. Let's take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC DUBIN, ATTORNEY FOR VICTIM'S FAMILY: Did you love your baby with Bonny, Rosie?
MESSEREAU: Mr. Blake, I'm ordering you not to respond to that question. And as your agent, I'm asserting all of your constitutional rights and privileges under the United States and the California Constitutions.
DUBIN: Did you want Rosie to know the truth about this crime?
MESSEREAU: Mr. Blake, I'm ordering you not to respond to that or any other question. This is strictly a publicity stunt by this lawyer.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CHUNG: Now, Mr. Messereau, you did object to Mr. Blake doing an interview with Barbara Walters, but then the interview did proceed? Did you create some sort of parameters?
MESSEREAU: I did not approve or authorize the interview. I wish it had not happened. And I don't think any criminal defendant should make statements before a trial because prosecutors will take those statements and pull them out of context and manipulate them in a way that is not truthful. However I could not prevent it.
CHUNG: Why not?
MESSEREAU: Mr. Blake is a father and he decided he wanted to make a statement to his daughter and nobody was going to stop him. And as a human being, I completely understand what he did.
CHUNG: Did he overstep any bounds that would be hurtful to him in the trial?
MESEREAU: I was not at the interview. I was not allowed to be there.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: You were not allowed by whom to be there?
MESEREAU: By my client. Mr. Blake did not want anyone there, including lawyers.
CHUNG: So, you have no idea if this interview was hurtful to him?
MESEREAU: I haven't even seen it. I have to see it on TV, because I wasn't allowed to be present.
CHUNG: Well, how can you represent a person if you don't even know what he's saying and what he's doing?
MESEREAU: Well, I can represent anyone I choose to, Connie. And in this situation, I'm representing someone who is innocent, who is desperate to speak out, someone who believes that innocent people should have the right to make statements when they want to.
He's always been an outspoken person throughout his life. He's always been honest and very down to earth. And this is a very difficult situation for him to be in. I've thought long and hard about the situation. I've gotten to know Robert Blake. I have total respect and regard for him. And I'm honored to represent him.
CHUNG: Well, he's probably very lucky to have you, because you're standing by him.
One final quick question: Will he take the stand?
MESEREAU: Well, at a preliminary hearing, a defendant almost never take the stand. In fact, usually, the defense doesn't even call witnesses at a preliminary hearing. At trial, we'll make our decision at that time. I think, from what you know about Robert Blake, it will be very tough to keep him off the witness stand.
CHUNG: All right, Tom Mesereau, thank you so much for being with us.
MESEREAU: Thank you.
CHUNG: Coming up later: a throwback to "Animal House" days.
ANNOUNCER: Next: the best-selling diet that has celebrities and millions of regular folks saying, pass the bacon. Is one of the most popular weight-loss programs right for you?
The Atkins plan takes "The Diet Challenge" when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: It's a warning you got from everyone, from your mother to your doctor: Eat a lot of fatty foods and you'll end up being a fatty yourself, right?
Well, not so, according to a controversial diet that's been used by millions of people for more than 30 years. The Atkins diet dictates it's not butter, cheese or red meat that make you gain weight. It's the carbohydrates. Dr. Atkins' newest book talks about maintaining your weight loss for life.
It seems almost too good to be true, right? So we thought it was time to ask Dr. Atkins' director of education and research, Colette Heimowitz, how the Atkins plan meets "The Diet Challenge."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Colette, thank you so much for being with us.
COLETTE HEIMOWITZ, ATKINS DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION AND RESEARCH: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
CHUNG: We all know about the Atkins diet, we think. But you're here to tell us more about it. This is an average day. Let's start with breakfast.
HEIMOWITZ: Breakfast is low-carbohydrate bread made into French toast with some orange slices and some Turkey sausage and a low- carbohydrate syrup you're able to put on top.
CHUNG: And the French toast is made with real eggs?
HEIMOWITZ: With real eggs, yes.
CHUNG: All right.
HEIMOWITZ: And lunch is an avocado with chicken salad in the middle with real mayonnaise and a green-leafy vegetable salad with olive oil dressing. These are soy chips, which are lower in carbohydrate than your typical potato chip.
CHUNG: Got it.
HEIMOWITZ: For dinner, you have salmon with green-leafy vegetables.
CHUNG: I have to stop you hear. Every time I hear about the Atkins diet, I hear steak.
HEIMOWITZ: Of course.
CHUNG: Steak, meat. Why are we eating salmon here?
HEIMOWITZ: It's never been just about steak. That's what some people would love to you believe because it's easy to criticize the program in that manner. But the program has lots of poultry and fish, some meats and diary. And it's a balance of all proteins.
CHUNG: OK, so we'll get into that a little more in a minute. Go ahead.
HEIMOWITZ: A green-leafy vegetable, again, with olive oil dressing; and for dessert, berries, such as strawberries and blueberries, and whipped cream. And here, for a snack, you could have hummus, which are legumes, beans, with your celery.
CHUNG: Right.
HEIMOWITZ: And it's a nice finger food and an important finger snack in between meals.
CHUNG: All right, so let's deal with that question of steak. All of us think, Atkins diet, that means steak, hamburgers bacon. You can have all of that good stuff. Protein, that's it. That's what you eat every day, every meal.
HEIMOWITZ: Yes.
And it's unfortunate, because people are missing out on the health benefits of following a program like this, because of that misconception and misunderstanding. It's not just about meat. It's about controlling carbohydrate consumption.
CHUNG: So, in fact, the stage that we keep hearing about is the first stage. And then after, what, two weeks...
HEIMOWITZ: After two weeks, you could begin to add more vegetables and fruits and seeds and nuts and beans and eventually whole grains when you get close to your goal weight.
CHUNG: Colette, the American Heart Association, cardiologists all across the country, and the American College of Preventative Medicine all believe that the Atkins diet is not good for you, because there's too much fat in it, too much protein, steak, all of that.
HEIMOWITZ: Correct. And the concerns are understandable, because too much fat in the presence of high carbohydrate, which is what they recommend, is dangerous.
The risk factors that they're concerned about do not show up when carbohydrates are controlled for. In the research trials, when carbohydrates were low and fat was as high as 60 percent, the risk factors for heart disease diminish and improved and weight loss was better when compared to low fat.
CHUNG: We want to hear from our viewers. So our first question has to do with something that's very common. So let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm curious why everyone I know who's been on the Atkins diet has gained back all the weight once they stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEIMOWITZ: Again a clear misunderstanding of the program, which is why we've written "Atkins For Life," which explains how to go through the four phases of the program and gives you menu ideas and recipe ideas. If you follow the four phases, you find your critical level of carbohydrate tolerance. As long as stay beneath that, you will not gain the weight back. People use it as a quick weight-loss diet.
CHUNG: So, you do eat carbohydrates on the Atkins diet.
HEIMOWITZ: Absolutely.
HEIMOWITZ: The healthiest carbohydrates and not the sugar and refined foods.
CHUNG: Got it.
OK, second question:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Sherry Gamlin (ph). And my question is, how does the Atkins diet affect your cholesterol if you have high cholesterol?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEIMOWITZ: That's an important question and where most health officials have been concerned.
But the recent emerging research -- and there's been seven independent trials funded by the American Heart Association in different research universities and facilities -- show that triglycerides improve, good cholesterol goes up, and total cholesterol comes down. Those are the risk factors for heart disease that I was talking about.
CHUNG: All right, Colette, finally, the critics will say, well, there really haven't been any long-term studies. And the Atkins diet has been around 30 years. Why hasn't this been done? NIH, I know, is doing one now.
HEIMOWITZ: Yes.
CHUNG: And you, Atkins, have had several studies done, but you've paid for them. So the feeling is that they are biased.
HEIMOWITZ: It's different to fund a study in an independent study facility like Duke or like Harvard University, at Women's Brigham, and then to pay for results.
CHUNG: All right, but the question is -- people say, the critics say you do not have solid proof that this is a healthy and a good diet that works.
HEIMOWITZ: And then I say, you're clearly not up on the emerging research, because there's seven independent trials, other than Atkins Foundation-funded studies, five of them in independent universities for six months following the strictest version of the diet, which is the induction diet, and found none of the risk factors they were anticipating showed up.
CHUNG: How about extremely long-term? How about presenting us with people who have been on it for years?
HEIMOWITZ: Well, there's no real long-term studies on any dietary approach, including low fat. It's very difficult to do long- term studies.
Anything beyond six months to one year, which we already have the data for, by that time, people are already close to what major health organizations recommend, including fruits and vegetables and seeds and nuts and beans. By that time, they're already in their maintenance phase, which is a wholesome whole foods diet.
CHUNG: All right, Colette Heimowitz, I thank you so much for being with us.
HEIMOWITZ: My pleasure.
CHUNG: And give our best to Dr. Atkins.
HEIMOWITZ: Thank you. I will.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Tomorrow on "The Diet Challenge," Dr. Dean Ornish will talk about his low-fat, no-animal-protein, high-complex, carbohydrate weight-loss diet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Vince Vaughn blew away Hollywood as a retro hipster in "Swingers." Since then, he's been good guys and bad guys in movies as divers "The Lost World: Jurassic Park," the remake of "Psycho," and "The Cell." You may have caught him as a Grammy presenter the other night, promoting his latest movie, "Old School," which opened at No. 2 last weekend.
When I spoke to Vince Vaughn earlier, we talked about how the new film is a part of American cinema's ongoing exploration of academia, in this case, three guys in their 30s who try to relive their college days.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OLD SCHOOL")
VINCE VAUGHN, ACTOR: I want to thank you very much for coming to the official Mitch Martin Freedom Festival. He's the very successful, very disease-free gentleman standing by the minibar.
We are officially starting a fraternity.
LUKE WILSON, ACTOR: This is my house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: "Old School," which co-stars Will Ferrell and Luke Wilson, answers the question: What it life were like a beer commercial?
And Vince Vaughn joins us now with his answer.
How you doing?
VAUGHN: I'm good. How you doing?
CHUNG: OK. Thank you so much for coming.
VAUGHN: Thanks for having me. Flattered to be here.
CHUNG: I'll tell you, there's great word of mouth about your movie. And one movie reviewer said: Loved it, couldn't stop laughing. And a lot of it has to do with you.
So I understand that it's about three aging buddies.
VAUGHN: Right.
CHUNG: And very much, it's like "Animal House," so that that, to me, is great.
VAUGHN: Yes, "Animal House" is the classic, you know? And I wouldn't dare to compare ourselves to that. And, also, I think, when "Animal House" came out, it was sort of pioneering. It was the first time anything like that was done. So, you're sort of affected by it more strongly.
And our movie's a little different than "Animal House," because "Animal House," they play college kids. And we're like older dudes going back. We're more like "City Slickers," kind of, in that we're fish out of water.
CHUNG: Oh, yes.
VAUGHN: We sort of start this fraternity. And it's sort of like, once you leave, you should never go back, for some guys. And, in our case, I think that's true.
CHUNG: Did you actually turn the role down in the beginning?
VAUGHN: I did pass on it the first time.
CHUNG: What are you, a knucklehead?
VAUGHN: I know.
I love comedy. And my brand of comedy is sort of more character- driven comedy, like "Swingers" or "Made." But when I met with the director, I thought the script had funny stuff in it. I was just never as big on broad comedy. But when I met with Todd Phillips, I thought he was very smart. And he explained tonally what he wanted me to do with the movie. And I'm a huge Will Ferrell fan, and Luke Wilson as well. I love "The Tenenbaums" and those movies that Luke did.
So, I knew what he was going for. So, I was happy to be a part of it once I sort of talked to him and understood what he wanted to do with it.
CHUNG: All right, well, let's take look at a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "OLD SCHOOL")
WILL FERRELL, ACTOR: Listen up. Altogether, we've picked 14 pledges.
WILSON: Wait. Who's this guy?
VAUGHN: Well, that's Blue. He's an old Navy vet who hangs around my store a lot. But don't worry about it. He's legit.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: What's going on?
FERRELL: If you tell anyone about this, I'll kill you. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We'll have him back by tonight, OK, sweetheart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Well, based on our studio crew here, you're a hit, right?
VAUGHN: Right.
CHUNG: The whole thing is a hit.
So, did you ever belong to a fraternity when you were a kid?
VAUGHN: No, I never did. I only went to college, Connie -- I went to a community college for two weeks in Illinois, CLC, College of Lake County. We called it college of last chance.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUGHN: I went there for two weeks and I dropped out. And then when I moved to L.A., my parents were like, you should really take some classes and have something to fall back on. And I was there two weeks at Santa Monica Junior College. And I got an audition the same day I had a test and I never went back to that.
But if I was in college, I don't think I personally would have been in a fraternity.
CHUNG: Right. I wouldn't belong to a sorority either. I might belong to a fraternity. Bunch of dudes around, not so bad.
VAUGHN: You live in the fast lane, Connie. I can't stop that.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: OK. Swinging, right?
VAUGHN: Swinging, right.
CHUNG: So, I know you've done a lot of improv. Did you improvise in this movie?
VAUGHN: I did. That's one thing about Todd, he was very collaborative that way. And I've found that, a lot of times, the directors that are the most confident are also the most including, because they feel comfortable with themselves.
So we improved some stuff. In fact, we came up with some scenes that he changed and put in the movie. I'm trying to think of some of the stuff I improvised. There's an ear muff scene in the movie where Luke swears and I kind of call back to an earlier scene where I tell the kid the ear muffs and we go off page on that and it turned out pretty funny. So, there were some places that we did it. And Will brought ideas and Luke brought ideas. Everybody did.
CHUNG: Vince, we love having you here.
VAUGHN: Glad to be here.
CHUNG: And good luck with the movie.
VAUGHN: Well, I feel all official being at CNN.
CHUNG: OK.
VAUGHN: It's good to be here, Connie.
CHUNG: Bye-bye.
VAUGHN: Thanks for having me.
CHUNG: OK. (END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Tonight's "Snapshot" begins with the way workers' sniffles can make the economy feel sick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): A new study finds the common cold costs the U.S. economy an annual $40 billion in treatment costs and lost work days. University of Michigan researchers are apparently the first to put a price tag on Americans' 500 million colds a year.
A grand jury called Boston's former Roman Catholic Archbishop, Cardinal Bernard law, to testify today on how the church dealt with sex abuse by clergy. Attorneys say Law probably won't face criminal charges.
Georgia Democratic Senator Zell Miller said CBS is selling bigotry with its planned reality based show based on "The Beverly Hillbillies." He wants the network to cancel the show.
"GQ" magazine says editor in chief Art Cooper will retire in June, after 20 years. Under his tenure, the men's magazine won national magazine awards three times.
An outraged Michael Jackson says he'll sue to keep Granada TV from releasing unaired footage from "Living With Michael Jackson." In the British documentary, the pop star admitted sharing his bedroom with children.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: our "Person of the Day," flying high over high water.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: He's a high-flying hero whose Superman-like moves easily qualify him to be our "Person of the Day."
Eric Withers is a North Carolina firefighter. Last night, while hanging from a police helicopter, he plucked two young people who were clinging to a rock in the middle of a swollen river. They had become stranded when they tried to rescue a dog. The waters were rising and it was getting dark. The river was too cold and swift to risk walking them out on a rope line. Withers swooped down from the helicopter.
And he joins us now from Charlotte.
Eric, that was unbelievable. Have you ever dangled from a helicopter that way to rescue two people who were in raging waters?
ERIC WITHERS, CHARLOTTE FIREFIGHTER: No, ma'am. We have trained on similar situations, but never before on a helicopter. CHUNG: Were you scared?
WITHERS: No. With the training that I have had, it pretty much has prepared me to do rescue situations such as that one.
CHUNG: All right.
So, when you got to Michael Adkins and Laura Denton, what was their state of mind? Because they had been there, what, six hours?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am, that is correct, about six hours.
Both victims were conscious and alert. I'm sure that both of them were also in a state of shock, with hypothermia setting in. They were pretty much just ready, fully exhausted and ready to be removed from the rocks.
CHUNG: And the hypothermia does make a person pretty loopy, doesn't it?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am, that is correct.
CHUNG: All right.
Now, when you discovered that Laura was afraid of heights, boy, you probably had to calm her down?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am.
I tried to just reinforce her that everything was going to be OK, tried to take the negative aspect out of it, and tried to fill her head pretty much with just positive thoughts by asking her her name, asking her about her family and just questions such as that one.
CHUNG: Right. Was she able to answer them?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am. A little hesitant at first, probably scared, but the more I talked to her, the more she opened up to me.
CHUNG: Oh, good for you.
And then, when you had to go back and get Michael, it was getting dark, wasn't it?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am.
It never became a problem, but it started to become a concern for us, as far as with the sun beginning to drop. But, luckily, we had enough light to perform the rescue.
CHUNG: Was he OK?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am. Both victims were OK, were released from Gaston Memorial Hospital as of last night.
CHUNG: Right. They immediately went to the hospital, stayed there.
But, by the end of this rescue, how did you feel?
WITHERS: A feeling of accomplishment. I felt that not only myself, but the pilot and the co-pilot, as well as my spotter, that we all four came together as a team and pulled off this rescue textbook style.
CHUNG: Wonderful.
And, quickly, the dog was rescued today too, right?
WITHERS: Yes, ma'am. Gaston County saved the dog today. The dog is alive.
CHUNG: Wonderful. Eric Withers, I thank you so much. You are our "Person of the Day."
WITHERS: Well, thank you.
CHUNG: All right.
Tomorrow, we will talk with Paul Vanner, the stage manager for the Station, the Rhode Island club destroyed by fire; and, in our "Diet Challenge," Dean Ornish on his eat more, weigh less diet.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": It's more than two months since Laci Peterson, eight months pregnant, was last seen; tonight, her brother, Brent Rocha, with the latest on the investigation of her disappearance.
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