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CNN Live Today
Troop Plan Before Turkish Parliament; Interview With George Rupp
Aired February 25, 2003 - 11:11 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, a plan to allow tens of thousands of U.S. troops to use Turkey as a base is now before that country's parliament. The troops would lead the attack from the north if the U.S. takes military action against Iraq.
Our Jane Arraf joining us by phone from Ankara with the latest.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Daryn. We now have a number on those troops. It is 62,000 U.S. troops that the Turkish government is asking parliament to approve. That's along with 265 fighter planes and 65 helicopters. All in all, a great big American military presence for Turkey to handle, part of the reason why it's taking so long to actually get this going.
Now, some of the troops from the 4th Infantry Division are actually off the Turkish coast. They've been there for several days waiting for this approval to get passed through parliament so they can unload and land.
Now, that approval did not come today. It might be debated and approved or rejected in parliament tomorrow. It's still very much up in the air politically. And the government is still trying to get the political support from members of parliament to actually approve this -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And so, Jane, one of the numbers is how many troops we're talking about. The other is how much money from the United States we're talking about. Where does that aid package proposal stand?
ARRAF: It stands at -- well, the figure there is $6 billion. That's the amount of money that the United States is willing to put up. Sounds like a lot of money, but Turkey says it wouldn't nearly begin to cover its losses. Despite that, that is the figure that they have agreed on. They are just now talking about how to break that down, and whether to turn that into greater amounts of loans and grants.
That figure will not be voted on by the Turkish parliament. What the parliament will vote on is simply allowing the U.S. troops, these 62,000 troops. At the same time, they're also being asked to approve by their government sending Turkish troops to northern Iraq, which adds another complication into the mix. Iraqi Kurds are protesting what's expected to be a very big Turkish presence. The Turks say they're not getting into combat, they just want to make sure that there's a buffer zone along the border with Iraq -- Daryn. KAGAN: Well, and there are those that believe that the Turks, what they really ultimately have their eye on is getting a piece of the action of that oil and the oil production facilities in northern Iraq.
ARRAF: Well, they deny it, of course, and what they really want to make sure of is that Iraqi Kurds basically don't get more power. That's their main concern at the moment. Their feeling is that if the war goes on and if it becomes more complicated than it's expected to be, then it could very well lead to the breakup of Iraq, with Iraqi Kurds who have controlled that north of the country since 1991, getting even more power.
Now, Turkey would like to prevent that at all costs, because they believe that means that they would have a problem with their own Kurdish minority along the border, and they have asked the U.S. to provide assurances that that won't happen. They've also asked for assurances that the Kurds will not be armed in any way, where the arms remain with them.
So still a lot of very delicate and very important, and meaningful complications to work out in this whole equation with the Kurds and the Turks, who obviously have a history between them, and the Americans in the middle -- Daryn.
KAGAN: That they do. Jane Arraf from Ankara. Thank you for that update and that explanation -- Leon.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, a second U.N. resolution on Iraq is going forward, in part as political cover for British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Blair faces a chorus of dissent on the other side of the Atlantic about his Iraq policy, and even a vocal opposition within his own Labour Party, some of which we actually heard expressed today on the House of Commons floor.
For a look at that, we turn now to CNN's Christiane Amanpour, who is standing by now live in London. Christiane, looks like things are not getting any easier for Mr. Blair.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's tough, but in general, this debate that has already started today will go to the floor for a vote tomorrow, and it's believed that Tony Blair will win that vote, even though about 60 of his own party members will vote against him, there are a majority who will vote with him, and also the opposition Tory Party will vote with him.
So it's -- in terms of politics, he'll win the debate tomorrow, but he has got a big problem with, not only public opinion in Britain -- most of the people do not approve of a war, especially one that is unilateral, so to speak, and also, public opinion and other governments around the world do not agree with a war, of course, if it's not backed by the United Nations.
So that is the focus of Tony Blair's efforts right now and for the next couple of weeks as he indicated in Parliament today. To get the majority of, certainly, the Security Council members on board, to pass the U.S./U.K. resolution that would authorize war. Although, of course, this resolution is being drafted and circulated right now doesn't explicitly talk about authorizing war.
Nonetheless, this is going to be a tough job for Tony Blair. He is saying that this period of time where they try to get the rest of the world on board, the Security Council on board, will be used as one final opportunity for Saddam Hussein to meet his responsibilities in a peaceful manner.
He talked also about the Al Samoud missiles, which is the key point at the moment in terms of disarmament. Hans Blix has ordered Baghdad to destroy them. He indicated Saddam Hussein, in an interview with CBS's Dan Rather yesterday, that he was not up for destroying them, although the interpretation is not yet quite clear on that. Certainly, Tony Blair addressed that point in Parliament today. But perhaps, reflecting British intelligence, said that he expected those missiles would be destroyed by Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: At present he's saying he will not destroy the Al Samoud missiles the inspectors have found were in breach of 1441, but he will, under pressure, claiming that this proves his cooperation. But does anyone think that he would be making any such concessions that indeed the inspectors would be within 1,000 miles of Baghdad were it not for the U.S. and the U.K. troops massed on his doorstep. And what is his hope? To play for time? To drag the process out until the attention of the international community wanes, the troops go, the way is again clear for him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, as Blair tries to rally his own country behind him, there are also deepening rifts between Europe and the United States with the French, the Germans, and with the Russians on board circulating an independent, separate counter proposal to the U.N. resolution draft that is being circulated. This calls for a lot more time, some have said right into the middle of summer to allow Saddam Hussein more markers, more specific deadlines, more specific tasks to meet before there is a final decision that he is or is not cooperating.
France and Germany lead the anti-war coalition and, unless things are resolved within the next several weeks, and unless the U.K. and Britain can bring France and Germany and the block they lead on board, this Security Council resolution will not pass. France has already said that it would not vote for it if it stood today. But of course, there are two weeks of fierce diplomatic work that are going to be underway, and that have already, obviously, already started. Back to you, Leon.
HARRIS: Still much, much more diplomacy to come. Thanks, Christiane. Christiane Amanpour, reporting live for us from the streets of London -- Daryn.
KAGAN: The Bush administration says it is planning a massive effort to feed and house hundreds of thousands of Iraqis once the shooting would stop. Representatives from a number of governmental and private relief agencies are on Capitol Hill this morning outlining their plans for post-war Iraq to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. So far, the Bush administration says it has spent $26.5 million on Iraq relief, and it says another $52 million is in the pipeline. The U.S. is working hand in hand with international organizations such as the United Nations and private groups specializing in humanitarian aid.
George Rupp heads the International Rescue Committee, a private aid agency, and he's joining us now in New York to talk about the humanitarian fallout that the war would bring.
Mr. Rupp, good morning. Some of the numbers I saw today were just absolutely staggering. This from the Bush administration, which estimates as many as 2 million people could be displaced or become refugees as a part of this war.
GEORGE RUPP, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE: Those estimates are also ones that the United Nations has offered, and we expect that there can be as many as 2 million people heading for the borders, and in addition to that, as many as 900,000 who will be displaced within Iraq. That will be a very serious humanitarian crisis.
KAGAN: And meanwhile, there has been criticism from a number of relief organizations saying that the Pentagon has not helped in trying to assess what the needs would be, and the Treasury Department, some criticisms have said, has actually impeded the efforts of some organizations trying to get inside Iraq and figure out exactly what these people are going to need once the crisis begins.
RUPP: Well, it is the case that especially American-based non- government organizations have had a very difficult time having access to Iraq. That's because the sanction regimen that the U.S. government has imposed does not allow American citizens to be involved. There are several NGOs who have been involved over the years in Baghdad, but they are involved through affiliates other than American ones.
So CARE, for example is involved through CARE Australia, Save the Children is involved through Save the Children U.K. American-based NGOs have not had access to Iraq until very recently, and there is now a fast track process underway. The result is that we are less prepared than we would like to be for what could be a very serious humanitarian emergency.
KAGAN: As I understand it, you can count the number of agencies that are already set up within Iraq on your hands and all your fingers, basically. That's how few agencies are set up.
RUPP: That is correct, and it's a very different situation from, for example, Kosovo or Bosnia, where there were many NGOs present, or Afghanistan, where there were dozens of NGOs. So there will be a real capacity problem. And as the initial conflict ends, assuming there is a conflict, that will be when the humanitarian emergency takes on enormous proportions. When people have to flee their homes, having adequate water and sanitation becomes a major need, and that will be a very urgent priority in which we in the International Rescue Committee very much want to be involved. But there will also, if the war goes on more than a month or so, be very serious food needs. As you have reported in the past, as many as 60 percent of the population of Iraq is dependent on the U.N. for food distribution. There are 46,000 food distribution centers in Iraq. That means 15 million people depend on those, and if the U.N. pulls its personnel out of Iraq when the war starts, there's a very serious danger that there could be a food emergency, that the U.S. military in the first instance will have to address.
KAGAN: And so, just very quickly, what can be done in the short amount of time before a possible war to serve the civilians that are going to find themselves displaced?
RUPP: Well, I think that the United States government, through the military, has in fact been doing extensive planning. Unfortunately, we are not aware of it in detail because it is all still classified. But it will be crucial that we have prepositioned supplies, which we have done in Amman, Jordan with a consortium of other NGOs, and as soon as we have access to Iraq, we intend to start on water and sanitation projects that will -- that are already required in northern Iraq. But there will be a continuing need to preposition people and supplies so that there can be very rapid movement in case of a humanitarian emergency.
KAGAN: George Rupp with the International Rescue Committee, we wish you well with your work, sir. A big, big job ahead of you.
RUPP: Thank you very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
George Rupp>
Aired February 25, 2003 - 11:11 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, a plan to allow tens of thousands of U.S. troops to use Turkey as a base is now before that country's parliament. The troops would lead the attack from the north if the U.S. takes military action against Iraq.
Our Jane Arraf joining us by phone from Ankara with the latest.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Daryn. We now have a number on those troops. It is 62,000 U.S. troops that the Turkish government is asking parliament to approve. That's along with 265 fighter planes and 65 helicopters. All in all, a great big American military presence for Turkey to handle, part of the reason why it's taking so long to actually get this going.
Now, some of the troops from the 4th Infantry Division are actually off the Turkish coast. They've been there for several days waiting for this approval to get passed through parliament so they can unload and land.
Now, that approval did not come today. It might be debated and approved or rejected in parliament tomorrow. It's still very much up in the air politically. And the government is still trying to get the political support from members of parliament to actually approve this -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And so, Jane, one of the numbers is how many troops we're talking about. The other is how much money from the United States we're talking about. Where does that aid package proposal stand?
ARRAF: It stands at -- well, the figure there is $6 billion. That's the amount of money that the United States is willing to put up. Sounds like a lot of money, but Turkey says it wouldn't nearly begin to cover its losses. Despite that, that is the figure that they have agreed on. They are just now talking about how to break that down, and whether to turn that into greater amounts of loans and grants.
That figure will not be voted on by the Turkish parliament. What the parliament will vote on is simply allowing the U.S. troops, these 62,000 troops. At the same time, they're also being asked to approve by their government sending Turkish troops to northern Iraq, which adds another complication into the mix. Iraqi Kurds are protesting what's expected to be a very big Turkish presence. The Turks say they're not getting into combat, they just want to make sure that there's a buffer zone along the border with Iraq -- Daryn. KAGAN: Well, and there are those that believe that the Turks, what they really ultimately have their eye on is getting a piece of the action of that oil and the oil production facilities in northern Iraq.
ARRAF: Well, they deny it, of course, and what they really want to make sure of is that Iraqi Kurds basically don't get more power. That's their main concern at the moment. Their feeling is that if the war goes on and if it becomes more complicated than it's expected to be, then it could very well lead to the breakup of Iraq, with Iraqi Kurds who have controlled that north of the country since 1991, getting even more power.
Now, Turkey would like to prevent that at all costs, because they believe that means that they would have a problem with their own Kurdish minority along the border, and they have asked the U.S. to provide assurances that that won't happen. They've also asked for assurances that the Kurds will not be armed in any way, where the arms remain with them.
So still a lot of very delicate and very important, and meaningful complications to work out in this whole equation with the Kurds and the Turks, who obviously have a history between them, and the Americans in the middle -- Daryn.
KAGAN: That they do. Jane Arraf from Ankara. Thank you for that update and that explanation -- Leon.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, a second U.N. resolution on Iraq is going forward, in part as political cover for British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Blair faces a chorus of dissent on the other side of the Atlantic about his Iraq policy, and even a vocal opposition within his own Labour Party, some of which we actually heard expressed today on the House of Commons floor.
For a look at that, we turn now to CNN's Christiane Amanpour, who is standing by now live in London. Christiane, looks like things are not getting any easier for Mr. Blair.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's tough, but in general, this debate that has already started today will go to the floor for a vote tomorrow, and it's believed that Tony Blair will win that vote, even though about 60 of his own party members will vote against him, there are a majority who will vote with him, and also the opposition Tory Party will vote with him.
So it's -- in terms of politics, he'll win the debate tomorrow, but he has got a big problem with, not only public opinion in Britain -- most of the people do not approve of a war, especially one that is unilateral, so to speak, and also, public opinion and other governments around the world do not agree with a war, of course, if it's not backed by the United Nations.
So that is the focus of Tony Blair's efforts right now and for the next couple of weeks as he indicated in Parliament today. To get the majority of, certainly, the Security Council members on board, to pass the U.S./U.K. resolution that would authorize war. Although, of course, this resolution is being drafted and circulated right now doesn't explicitly talk about authorizing war.
Nonetheless, this is going to be a tough job for Tony Blair. He is saying that this period of time where they try to get the rest of the world on board, the Security Council on board, will be used as one final opportunity for Saddam Hussein to meet his responsibilities in a peaceful manner.
He talked also about the Al Samoud missiles, which is the key point at the moment in terms of disarmament. Hans Blix has ordered Baghdad to destroy them. He indicated Saddam Hussein, in an interview with CBS's Dan Rather yesterday, that he was not up for destroying them, although the interpretation is not yet quite clear on that. Certainly, Tony Blair addressed that point in Parliament today. But perhaps, reflecting British intelligence, said that he expected those missiles would be destroyed by Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: At present he's saying he will not destroy the Al Samoud missiles the inspectors have found were in breach of 1441, but he will, under pressure, claiming that this proves his cooperation. But does anyone think that he would be making any such concessions that indeed the inspectors would be within 1,000 miles of Baghdad were it not for the U.S. and the U.K. troops massed on his doorstep. And what is his hope? To play for time? To drag the process out until the attention of the international community wanes, the troops go, the way is again clear for him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, as Blair tries to rally his own country behind him, there are also deepening rifts between Europe and the United States with the French, the Germans, and with the Russians on board circulating an independent, separate counter proposal to the U.N. resolution draft that is being circulated. This calls for a lot more time, some have said right into the middle of summer to allow Saddam Hussein more markers, more specific deadlines, more specific tasks to meet before there is a final decision that he is or is not cooperating.
France and Germany lead the anti-war coalition and, unless things are resolved within the next several weeks, and unless the U.K. and Britain can bring France and Germany and the block they lead on board, this Security Council resolution will not pass. France has already said that it would not vote for it if it stood today. But of course, there are two weeks of fierce diplomatic work that are going to be underway, and that have already, obviously, already started. Back to you, Leon.
HARRIS: Still much, much more diplomacy to come. Thanks, Christiane. Christiane Amanpour, reporting live for us from the streets of London -- Daryn.
KAGAN: The Bush administration says it is planning a massive effort to feed and house hundreds of thousands of Iraqis once the shooting would stop. Representatives from a number of governmental and private relief agencies are on Capitol Hill this morning outlining their plans for post-war Iraq to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. So far, the Bush administration says it has spent $26.5 million on Iraq relief, and it says another $52 million is in the pipeline. The U.S. is working hand in hand with international organizations such as the United Nations and private groups specializing in humanitarian aid.
George Rupp heads the International Rescue Committee, a private aid agency, and he's joining us now in New York to talk about the humanitarian fallout that the war would bring.
Mr. Rupp, good morning. Some of the numbers I saw today were just absolutely staggering. This from the Bush administration, which estimates as many as 2 million people could be displaced or become refugees as a part of this war.
GEORGE RUPP, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE: Those estimates are also ones that the United Nations has offered, and we expect that there can be as many as 2 million people heading for the borders, and in addition to that, as many as 900,000 who will be displaced within Iraq. That will be a very serious humanitarian crisis.
KAGAN: And meanwhile, there has been criticism from a number of relief organizations saying that the Pentagon has not helped in trying to assess what the needs would be, and the Treasury Department, some criticisms have said, has actually impeded the efforts of some organizations trying to get inside Iraq and figure out exactly what these people are going to need once the crisis begins.
RUPP: Well, it is the case that especially American-based non- government organizations have had a very difficult time having access to Iraq. That's because the sanction regimen that the U.S. government has imposed does not allow American citizens to be involved. There are several NGOs who have been involved over the years in Baghdad, but they are involved through affiliates other than American ones.
So CARE, for example is involved through CARE Australia, Save the Children is involved through Save the Children U.K. American-based NGOs have not had access to Iraq until very recently, and there is now a fast track process underway. The result is that we are less prepared than we would like to be for what could be a very serious humanitarian emergency.
KAGAN: As I understand it, you can count the number of agencies that are already set up within Iraq on your hands and all your fingers, basically. That's how few agencies are set up.
RUPP: That is correct, and it's a very different situation from, for example, Kosovo or Bosnia, where there were many NGOs present, or Afghanistan, where there were dozens of NGOs. So there will be a real capacity problem. And as the initial conflict ends, assuming there is a conflict, that will be when the humanitarian emergency takes on enormous proportions. When people have to flee their homes, having adequate water and sanitation becomes a major need, and that will be a very urgent priority in which we in the International Rescue Committee very much want to be involved. But there will also, if the war goes on more than a month or so, be very serious food needs. As you have reported in the past, as many as 60 percent of the population of Iraq is dependent on the U.N. for food distribution. There are 46,000 food distribution centers in Iraq. That means 15 million people depend on those, and if the U.N. pulls its personnel out of Iraq when the war starts, there's a very serious danger that there could be a food emergency, that the U.S. military in the first instance will have to address.
KAGAN: And so, just very quickly, what can be done in the short amount of time before a possible war to serve the civilians that are going to find themselves displaced?
RUPP: Well, I think that the United States government, through the military, has in fact been doing extensive planning. Unfortunately, we are not aware of it in detail because it is all still classified. But it will be crucial that we have prepositioned supplies, which we have done in Amman, Jordan with a consortium of other NGOs, and as soon as we have access to Iraq, we intend to start on water and sanitation projects that will -- that are already required in northern Iraq. But there will be a continuing need to preposition people and supplies so that there can be very rapid movement in case of a humanitarian emergency.
KAGAN: George Rupp with the International Rescue Committee, we wish you well with your work, sir. A big, big job ahead of you.
RUPP: Thank you very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
George Rupp>
