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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
D.A. Begins Presenting Evidence Against Robert Blake; Physical, Political Reconstruction of Iraq to Take Years, Billions of Dollars
Aired February 26, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening, I'm Connie Chung. Tonight the prosecution begins presenting it's evidence against actor Robert Blake.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: A Hollywood murder mystery double feature. Robert Blake in court for the murder of his wife, and on prime time TV in a jail house interview. Now the spot light burns bright as the aging actor faces his toughest role.
What's to become of Iraq if we go to war?
Physical and political reconstruction will take years and billions of dollars.
Is the U.S. ready to rebuild Iraq.
The stage manager of the doomed Rhode Island night spot warned he couldn't guarantee safety if pyrotechnics were used in the club.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They certainly seemed to think that they were thinking about it.
ANNOUNCER: Now a grand jury is deciding if criminal charges should be brought, and against whom.
Eat more, weigh loss. That's the promise that Dr. Dean Ornish makes. Tonight, his low-fat, high fiber plan takes the diet challenge.
And our "Person of the Day": A roadside delivery.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN broadcast center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. A private investigator testified today that actor Robert Blake approached him after learning that his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley, was pregnant, and asked him, quote, "To do something about it." One of the options discussed, the investigator testified, was to, quote, "whack her." The testimony came in the opening day of a hearing 22 months after Blake's wife was shot to death outside a Los Angeles restaurant. Blake looked pale and drawn as he entered the courtroom where he would formally be presented with evidence he would have to answer.
CNN's Charles Feldman has been covering the hearing in Los Angeles.
Charles, tell us, who is this private investigator and what was he claiming?
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Connie, this private eye is someone who used to work a long time ago for the Los Angeles Police Department. So he's a former cop. That's No. 1. No. 2, as a private eye, he's done a lot of work in the past apparently for Robert Blake. In fact, he said that he liked working for Blake because he used to pay on time. But what's really important and what's germane to this case and the testimony that's so important, and at the heart of the prosecution case, is his testimony today that Blake approached him with a scheme to first kidnap Bonny Lee Bakley and abort the child, and if that didn't work to kill her. The testimony was riveting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM A. WELCH, BLAKE'S PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Give her $10,000. He said no. I said, well, she probably has a number, I said give her $20,000, give her $50,000, give her $100,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the defendant have any response to your suggestions?
WELCH: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
WELCH: He said no. He said, I've thought about this, and I've figured it out, and this is what we're going to do. He said, we're going to hire a doctor. We're going to abort her. And if that doesn't work, we're going to whack her.
FELDMAN: Now, other than the private investigator, Connie, prosecutors also played an audio tape. Now, this is a tape that was made by Bonny Lee Bakley herself. It was a telephone conversation she had with Blake. And it had to do with the fact that she knew that she was having a child, and the prosecutors played it in order to establish motive on Robert Blake's part. They wanted to show that he was upset, to say the least, with the fact that he had been apparently tricked into having a baby that he didn't want.
Let's listen to that recorded conversation between Bonny Lee Bakley and Robert Blake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR ON TRAIL FOR MURDER: I don't know what I was thinking.
BONNY LEE BAKLEY, MURDER VICTIM: I just wanted to be with you, and I didn't like the way things were going.
BLAKE: No, you didn't. You wanted to get pregnant. For whatever reason that's what you did. You lied to me. You double- crossed me. You double-dealt me. And that's who you are. That's how you operate. I mean, that doesn't stop me from caring about you and wanting to be with you. But...
BAKLEY: Sounds like it does.
BLAKE: I'm not going to lie about who you are and what you are. Because that's who you are. That's what you are. And that's what you do. And those are big lies, baby. And if you can live with that, if that doesn't come down on you, I can't do that kind of thing. The aura would get me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Now, the defense, Connie, also got in a bit of a point of its own at the first day of the preliminary hearing. The prosecutor had on the stand the gentleman who did the autopsy on Bonny Lee Bakley. And the defense attorney under cross-examination was able to establish that because there were cops present inside the autopsy room, that the coroner might have been influenced by them and didn't pursue a very important issue in all murder investigations, and that is the issue of establishing time of death. Because that could go, when a trial happens, to Robert Blake's alibi -- Connie.
CHUNG: All Right. Thank you, Charles Feldman.
Eric Dubin is a lawyer representing the children of Bonny Lee Bakley.
He joins us now from outside the Los Angeles courtroom.
Good evening, Mr. Dubin, and thank you for joining us.
ERIC DUBIN, LAWYER: Hi, Connie. Thank you.
CHUNG: Mr. Dubin, the testimony of the private investigator came as a surprise to some. However, if this man's testimony is accurate and if indeed the stuntman who will be testifying, if their testimony is accurate, isn't it odd that none of these people went to the police to report what Robert Blake had said to them?
DUBIN: I don't know if it's odd, but I'll tell you one thing, Connie, listening to Mr. Welch in the courtroom screamed credibility to me. This is a 20-year officer, a good friend of Robert Blake's. Did not want to rat in his friend. But what Mr. Welch said in that courtroom was absolutely true.
CHUNG: What about the question of the stuntmen? Because they will be testifying as well, suggesting that Mr. Blake had tried to get them to kill his wife.
DUBIN: Well, Connie, you don't ask your CPA to commit murder for you. Those are the kind of people you go to. So I have no doubt that Mr. Mesereau (ph) is going to have a strong cross-examination. But the issue is are they telling the truth about Mr. Blake, not are they good human beings. I think that question is answered in the fact that they would even consider killing somebody.
CHUNG: Have you been in contact with Bonny Lee Bakley's children today?
DUBIN: Yes. I'm sitting next to Holly (ph) in the courtroom right now. And Margie (ph) is with me. It was very difficult to watch their mom's dead body shown in the courtroom. It was very difficult hearing Bonny's voice in the courtroom today on the tapes. But Mr. Welch nails home a point that I hope everybody's getting out there. They've got the right guy.
CHUNG: Will any of the children be testifying, do you think, at the trial?
DUBIN: Yes. At the trial, yes. At the preliminary hearing, no. We had dinner with the DA and the detectives over the weekend, and right now I don't think it's necessary to put Holly through a cross- examination. It doesn't add anything. And the case is so powerful by itself.
CHUNG: Bonny's daughter Holly has called Blake a madman.
Is that what she believes?
DUBIN: He's a murderer and a madman. You've got to understand that holly lived with Bonny and raised Rose at the beginning and Blake would call all the time with his abuse and his threats. And nobody in the family understood why Bonny took that kind of abuse from Mr. Blake. But she really liked Mr. Blake and she wanted it to work with him. And I think Bonny missed the obvious signs that this was coming, maybe being too blinded by the celebrity and her love or like for Mr. Blake.
CHUNG: Eric Dubin in Los Angeles. Thank you.
DUBIN: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: And Jeffrey Toobin, our CNN legal analyst, he's here with us. I know you find this private investigator testimony really quite a bombshell.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Incredible. I mean, when you think you had two people previously on the record saying that he went out -- that he asked to have his wife killed. Now you have a third, an ex-LAPD officer. I mean, this case has gone from a trial to a sequel to "Throw Momma From the Train." I mean, there's just -- everybody is out to get this. He seems to have gone through the phone book trying to find someone to kill her.
CHUNG: What was the significance of that audiotape between Robert Blake and his wife?
What was the prosecution trying to prove? TOOBIN: Motive. The anger in his voice was really intense. I mean, he sounds sort of like what he is, which is a b actor, saying "You double-dealt me, baby." I mean, you know, that's the way he talked in real life, apparently. But you could see how angry he was at the fact that, according to him, she had ensnared him into this pregnancy. He didn't want this baby. He didn't want her around. And his anger is really palpable on that tape.
CHUNG: And what about the coroner's testimony?
Charles Feldman said that the coroner admitted that he was a bit influenced by the fact that there were police officers around.
What's the significance of that?
TOOBIN: I think it shows a little bit that, you know, they may have been looking at Blake from the beginning. But let's not overstate it. Police officers are present at virtually all autopsies in murder situations. It's not unusual that they were there. And it's not unusual that they would be conversing back and forth. But it does lay the groundwork for a possible defense later that the prosecution was just laying for Robert Blake and they steered their -- all their findings against him. But in the context of today the big news is this new apparent attempt to find a new hit man.
CHUNG: Jeffrey, Charles Feldman says there isn't any question that this case is going to go to trial.
TOOBIN: Absolutely. He's absolutely right. The preliminary hearing is basically a rubber stamp process for the prosecution. There is virtually never a important case where a judge throws it out at this level. There's no doubt that the prosecution is going to make the required showing and move ahead to trial.
CHUNG: Even if the defense can break down the credibility of the two stuntmen, of this private investigator, whatever?
TOOBIN: The defense can do some useful things for its cause. It can, you know, cross-examine some witnesses, develop transcripts that they can use to later try to contradict them when they testify at the trial, but in terms of winning and losing in a preliminary hearing in California, the prosecution always wins.
CHUNG: All right. Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.
Coming up -- the stage manager from the Station nightclub talks about the fatal fire there.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next -- what would Iraq look like after the devastation of war? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: The Bush administration today began speaking about Iraq after President Saddam Hussein. The president says U.S. forces will patrol the country until a democracy is established.
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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rebuilding Iraq will require a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own. We will remain in Iraq as long as necessary and not a day more.
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CHUNG: Administration sources estimate a two-month war could cost as much as $40 billion, and that keeping a peacekeeping force there would cost at least $6 billion a year.
What would a post-war Iraq look like? Well, here to look at that with us is George Packer, who has written an article about the future of Iraq for this coming Sunday's "New York Times Magazine."
And in Washington, CNN analyst Ken Pollack also joins us.
First, thank you so much for being with us, both of you.
GEORGE PACKER, CONTRIBUTOR, "NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE": Pleasure.
CHUNG: Ken Pollack, with those kinds of billion-dollar numbers being thrown around, and I know they vary a great deal -- all the more reason to want other countries to join the United States in a coalition to help, because that help will come not only during war, but later.
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: That's absolutely right, Connie.
In fact, the help that we get from the coalition is actually much more important for what people call the day after than it is for the actual military operation.
Militarily, our forces are more than capable of dealing with the war itself. In fact, the U.S. military kind of prefers to do it alone because they feel like the allies just get in the way. But when this is over, we're going to need the resources, the money, and the skills that many other countries bring to bear.
You know, I've seen numbers that are in many cases twice as high as those being presented by the administration. It all really depends on what the war looks like, how hard the Iraqis fight, whether Saddam is able to destroy his oil fields and use weapons of mass destruction. So it's really very variable. And we want to have all of our allies there because honestly, we don't want to have to pay all of those costs.
CHUNG: George, what is the biggest challenge for the United States and a coalition in a post-Saddam Iraq?
PACKER: I think it's really how do you create a democracy from scratch? Iraq has absolutely no Democratic tradition.
I mean, comparatively speaking, Germany after World War II had a liberal Democratic tradition in its history. Iraq has absolutely none. How is the United States, either alone or in coalition with other countries, going to make all the subtle decisions, finesse Arab opinion in the region, competing interests within Iraq, the pressure from home to get out and stay long enough but not too long in order to make sure that there is something left behind that looks like a democracy and that has a chance to last?
CHUNG: Ken Pollack, how long and how many U.S. troops will have to stay in Iraq?
POLLACK: Well, I think it's more important to ask how big the force itself, because hopefully it will, again, be a multinational force.
Initially, going in, we're probably going to have about 250,000 American troops there because that's basically going to be the size of the force that's going to conduct the invasion. And we're going to want to bring in additional troops after that because we need people to do the humanitarian reconstruction.
And this is what we did exactly in Kosovo and Bosnia, other places. So you start with a big force, and then you start drawing it down as the situation stabilizes. And I think most people believe that we can get down to a multinational force of about 100,000 troops within a period of about two or three years. Then that force would need to stay in place for awhile longer and then at some point you'd have a new Iraqi government which could hopefully assume the full security mission.
CHUNG: Ken Pollack, who will control the oil fields? Because you mention the oil fields, but the Iraqis believe that that's the whole purpose of this war.
POLLACK: Not only the Iraqis, but so many people throughout the Arab world, and, I'd say, even in Europe believe that the United States is doing this so we can get our hands on Iraq's oil and use it for our own purposes. And for me that's a critical issue and it's one where the administration, I don't think, has quite come to the right conclusion. Because I think the only way that we're going to be able to do this and do it properly so that we reassure the Iraqis and the rest of the Arab world, if not the entire world, is to put all of this in the hands of the U.N.
Well, I think it's clear that the United States is going to have to be there in force, we're going to have to provide a strong backbone behind this reconstruction effort. We've got to have a U.N. umbrella. It has to be a U.N. hand on Iraq's oil spigot. Otherwise, all we're going to do is confirm all those people who believe these conspiracy theories that we're just there for the oil.
CHUNG: Ken Pollack, George Packer, thank you.
There's a new development tonight with the other country in conflict with the U.S. over weapons of mass destruction. U.S. officials say North Korea has reactivated one of the nuclear reactors at its main complex, a step officials believe could allow North Korea to make additional nuclear weapons by sometime next year.
And NASA has released internal e-mails that show engineers raising concerns about the shuttle Columbia's left wing less than 24 hours before the shuttle disintegrated over Texas. The e-mails raised the specter that the left wing could burn off, killing the seven astronauts on board.
Right now ,news about the final moments of Columbia's flight tops tonight's look at "The World in 60."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): A videotape that recorded Columbia's return to Earth has been recovered. It offers brief glimpses of the astronauts. But NASA says the video, which ends several minutes before Columbia broke up, offers few clues to the disaster.
Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Hans Blix says inspectors would need several months to work in Iraq, even if Baghdad fully cooperated. He described the inspections as moving -- quote -- "centimeter by centimeter."
U.S. naval ships are off the coast of Turkey, waiting for a vote from parliament that would let in U.S. troops for a possible war with Iraq. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia agreed to give the U.S. full use of its Prince Sultan Air Base.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon removed his long-time rival, Benjamin Netanyahu from the post of foreign minister. Netanyahu was offered the post of finance minister, which he refused.
An early morning fire swept through a Connecticut nursing home, killing 10 people and injuring 23. Officials are calling the fire suspicious and one resident has been arrested.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next, the stage manager at the Rhode Island nightclub. What did he know about the dangers of blazing pyrotechnics before the fatal fire? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A grand jury in Rhode Island began hearing testimony today about last week's tragic fire at the Station nightclub. Surviving members of the band Great White returned from California this morning under a subpoena. The grand jury's proceedings are held in secret session.
Meanwhile, grieving families of victims began to hold memorial services for some of the 97 people who died in the fire. And the central question remains, who was responsible? Earlier I spoke with Paul Vanner who was stage manager at the club, and his attorney, Ronald Resmini, from the site where the club once stood.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHUNG: Paul, what can you tell us about past use of pyrotechnics at the club and why two or three months ago you warned the owners against using pyrotechnics?
PAUL VANNER, STAGE MANGER, THE STATION: Past use of pyro at the club -- we've might have run pyro shows about at least a dozen times or so in the last three years or so since the Derderian brothers have owned the club.
And approximately three months ago I was having some serious safety issues due to the fact that personnel were coming into the club that I was not familiar with, I wasn't familiar with the formulas they were using for their explosives, how they were going to set them off, various issues like that.
So I brought the issue up to Mike Derderian one night, like after we closed the club, we were just like kind of having around the bar, having a shift drink. And I addressed this issue to Mike, and I let him know that I had some serious safety concerns. I couldn't guarantee safety in his club if we continued to run out of this policy.
So I said I could guarantee it in one way, Mike, and that's none, no pyrotechnics at all, that's the only way I can guarantee safety in the club from pyrotechnic use.
CHUNG: So did Mike Derderian agree with you and then ban pyrotechnics from then on?
VANNER: See, I do not know that, but he certainly seemed to take it to heart, my suggestion.
CHUNG: Now, the band road manager said that he in fact called one of the owners and spoke to him about using pyrotechnics a week before the concert. And that the owners said fine, go ahead. Do you know if that's true?
VANNER: No, I don't. I do not know. That was obviously between the road manager and the club owner.
CHUNG: If indeed that did happen, would you have known that pyrotechnics would be used as the stage manager?
VANNER: Standard procedure would be for the club owners to let me know if any sort of device like that was going to be used on the stage, either me or the lighting director of the club.
CHUNG: Did you have any idea that that foam insulation, the soundproofing, was highly flammable?
VANNER: No. I don't have any knowledge about the foam insulation or the soundproofing material.
CHUNG: You say that you didn't know that pyrotechnics were going to be used that night. So how do you think they got onto the stage? What happened? VANNER: Well, there's a little time gap there when all the lights in the house get shut down and a CD intro comes on and it's about two to three minutes long, where there's a potential gap there where a possibility of something getting thrown up there is given.
CHUNG: So are you suggesting that the band might have snuck the stuff onto the stage and ignited them without your knowing it?
VANNER: I don't know that. I didn't see it. But I'm just saying that the potential gap is there.
CHUNG: Now, I understand that the band arrived at about 3:00 in the afternoon, the sound person even talked to you the day before and didn't mention anything about pyrotechnics. There was dinner time. Did the band at any time mention to you on that night that they were going to use pyrotechnics?
VANNER: No. No, I was not informed that any sort of device like that was going to be put on the stage or used.
CHUNG: And normally do bands tell you about it?
VANNER: Yes. It's pretty much standard procedure for them to, you know, let us know what's going on with the club. The club is the same. The bands are different. You know, we can't have surprises.
CHUNG: Were you aware that the club needed a permit to use pyrotechnics?
VANNER: No. I don't know anything about permits or anything like that. Like I said, I'm an audio man, I'm a sound man, and like pyrotechnics is kind of a visual device. That's not my area of expertise.
CHUNG: Mr. Resmini, are you concerned that your client might be held liable in any civil lawsuits?
RONALD RESMINI, ATTORNEY FOR PAUL VANNER: I don't see that as a reasonable possibility in the outcome of this. He had no designated responsibilities to be involved in that. The appearance of the pyrotechnics came at a point when there wasn't an opportunity to correct the very dangerous situation.
CHUNG: Paul Vanner and Ronald Resmini, I thank you both for being with us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Coming up, when dad is the most powerful man in the world, how will that affect how you grow up?
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, can a low-fat, high-carb diet reverse heart disease? Best-selling diet guru, Dr. Dean Ornish and his Eat More, Weigh Less plan take "The Diet Challenge." CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Is there some reason, a deeply personal reason, behind President Bush's position regarding Iraq and President Saddam Hussein? Does family history play a role? In a moment, I'll talk with the author of a new book about presidential offspring.
Obviously, growing up in the White House is like living in a fishbowl. The public is always watching. Very little can be hidden.
CNN's Gary Tuchman takes a look at some of the children who have called 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Forty years ago this very year, a toddler said goodbye to his father, the president of the United States. And our hearts broke.
We have watched the children of presidents play. We have watched them grow. And we have watched them become adults. We watched them because they all lived in a fishbowl called the White House.
Gerald Ford's daughter Susan.
SUSAN FORD BALES, DAUGHTER OF GERALD FORD: I got to meet Chairman Mao in China. I got to meet King Hussein.
TUCHMAN: Jimmy Carter's daughter Amy moved into the White House as a 9-year-old and got to see the world and the most influential people in it. Certainly, growing up in the White House is a privilege, but it's also a burden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AUGUST 1974)
RICHARD NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You will be in our hearts and you will be in our prayers. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: August 1974, Richard Milhouse Nixon says goodbye after resigning as president of the United States, the only president ever to do so. Walking behind: his daughters Trisha and Julie, who never wavered in support of their father.
We don't know exactly what Chelsea Clinton was going through as she dealt with her father's actions that led to his impeachment, but it could not have been easy. Chelsea was shielded from the news media by her parents. And only after her father's presidency has she become a bit high-profile.
Now the current president is taking pains to protect his daughters from publicity, which they've had, nevertheless. Twins Jenna and Barbara had some scrapes with the law for underage drinking. They are now no longer underage. And when presidential children become adults, that leads to the potential for another problematic issue: outspokenness. Ronald and Nancy Reagan's daughter Patti Davis wrote a book that did not make the 40th president too happy.
PATTI DAVIS, DAUGHTER OF RONALD REAGAN: It's not attractive, maybe, but it's just what happened. Nobody set out to hurt anybody.
TUCHMAN: George Washington might not agree in his case. His stepson allegedly tried to cheat the nation's first president in a cattle deal.
There's a whole different story with the very next president, John Adams. His son, John Quincy Adams, liked the White House so much, he became the sixth president, which leads us to the 41st president, George Herbert Walker Bush. Watch whose hand he shakes just after he took the oath of office. Some presidential children stay out of the limelight after their father has left office, but not all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN F. KENNEDY JR., SON OF JFK: Thank you. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: John F. Kennedy Jr. spent his life in the limelight until his tragic death in 1999, mourned by millions, who felt like they really knew him.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Many of the children of presidents grow up to suffer tragic fates. That's one conclusion reached by Doug Wead, who has written a new book, "All The Presidents' Children." He was able to contact 19 of the 27 children of presidents who are still alive today.
And Doug Wead joins us from Washington.
Good evening, Doug.
DOUG WEAD, AUTHOR, "ALL THE PRESIDENTS' CHILDREN": Good evening, Connie.
CHUNG: Now, it was FDR who said -- and I quote -- "One of the worst things in the world is being the child of a president. It's a terrible life they lead."
You spent 15 years researching this book. What do you think?
WEAD: Well, it's true. But there's both. There's also triumphant stories. The story of Webb Hayes is -- no one in Hollywood could dream up a story like this guy. He's a multimillionaire who risks it all as a soldier of fortune in China and Africa and the Crimea. So there's good and there's bad. But there doesn't seem to be much in between. CHUNG: For our current president, George W., it seems as if he had three things actually working against him: for one, the same name, George, although his father's name was George Herbert Walker Bush. And he's not -- our current president is not a junior.
No. 2, he was first-born, of course. And, No. 3, everyone in the family and elsewhere was talking about Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, as being the person who would probably succeed in running for president and getting elected. So, shouldn't people in general give George W. more credit than he's gotten for achieving what he has?
WEAD: As presidential children, Connie, he's a renascent phenomenon. I mean, John Adams II died an alcoholic at 31. William Henry Harrison Jr. died an alcoholic at 35. Calvin Coolidge Jr. died at 16 after an accident on the White House tennis courts. On and on the list goes.
Andrew Johnson Jr. died at 26. Andrew Jackson Jr. died in a hunting accident. They seem bent on self-destruction. The first-born in most families is a high achiever. The first-born and especially the namesake in a presidential family, there's a lot of unconscious pressure there and self-hatred and stress. And they just die young. But G.W. somehow survived that.
CHUNG: Now, our current president, G.W., has referred to Saddam Hussein as the man who tried to kill his father. How much do you think that is influencing his decision about invading Iraq and creating a regime change in Iraq?
WEAD: I think it's a very important part of the decision. This is nothing new. In geopolitics in the Middle Ages, a son would often take up the sword and finish his father's battles. What is new is, we're seeing this dynamic, because we know this president's father. And, of course, this is a nuclear age. We're not talking about swords.
What I found in my research, Connie, is that all of us seek the approval of the father figure in our life, through either mimicry or completion: mimicry when we go to the same school, root for the same baseball team; completion when we do what the father didn't finish or failed to do. And all through history, you'll find presidential first-born sons and daughters opting for completion.
John F. Kennedy Jr. became a publisher when he learned that his dad wanted to be a publisher. Teddy Roosevelt Jr. won every land medal available to U.S. forces, including the Medal of Honor, when he learned that his dad's greatest disappointment in life was not winning the Medal of Honor. And this -- I can repeat almost 40 stories exactly like this.
So you have in George W. Bush a man who is seeking completion. He's tying the loose ends. His father's greatest disappointment was over the public perceptions regarding his new tax plan. Read my lips, no new taxes. And George W. Bush is wiping that off the pages of history. No matter what happens, his solution is a tax cut. And Bush will become synonymous with tax cut. And, of course, there's the issue with Saddam Hussein.
CHUNG: Now, we only have about 20 seconds left. And I want you to just mention, of course, the Bush twins, because they have had their share of problems. And you know the Bush family. To what do we attribute these problems?
WEAD: Well, their life, they're young. And it's normal right now. It's too early to draw any conclusions at all from their life.
I think they're going to do well because they're twins and they'll have each other. And I think they're going to do well because, like the Wilsons, George and Laura have lived closely with their daughters. And it has its impact.
CHUNG: And how about Chelsea Clinton going from being a very quiet Clinton daughter to bumping noses with Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow and the like? How did that happen?
WEAD: Every presidential child I spoke with gave high marks to Chelsea, because she had no sibling and still has done as well as she has.
But the relationship with entertainment and presidential kids goes all the way back to George Washington Adams, who was a buddy of Ralph Waldo Emerson. It's never stopped. One of the presidential kids married an actress, who became de facto first lady when the first lady died. So, it's an old symbiotic relationship.
The presidential child is fascinated by the Hollywood expert, who knows the tricks of dealing with celebrityhood, and the entertainment celebrity is fascinated by royalty and presidential children, whose celebrity never goes away. It's permanent.
CHUNG: Yes, you're so right. Hollywood and the White House, they go hand in hand. Thank you, Doug Wead.
WEAD: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: And still ahead: new details about the accused Washington-area snipers, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: It's probably fair to say that no public figure in recent years has been more of a "Diet Challenge" than Big Mac- and fries- loving Bill Clinton.
Cardiologist Dean Ornish is the man who tried and succeeded to get the former president to eat healthier. Dr. Ornish has written five books on the ways to keep the pounds off. He says that his plan is not just a diet, but a way of life, something that also helps your heart and reduces stress. Its goal is summarized in the title of his new book, "Eat More, Weigh Less."
I spoke with him earlier and we put the Ornish plan up to our "Diet Challenge."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Dr. Ornish, it's so good to see you after 20 years, right?
DR. DEAN ORNISH, AUTHOR, "EAT MORE, WEIGH LESS": Twenty years. We should do this at least once every 20 years, whether we need to or not.
CHUNG: Great idea.
Now, this is the day in the life of someone who is on your weight-loss program, right?
ORNISH: Right. Correct.
CHUNG: So these are the meals this person would eat. Tell us about it.
ORNISH: Well, first, let me distinguish that the weight-loss program isn't really a diet, as such. It's a way of -- you have a spectrum of choices. And so when -- it's about eating less fat and eating fewer simple carbs.
CHUNG: Eating less fat and fewer simple carbs.
ORNISH: Simple carbs are things like white flour, white rice, sugar. And when you eat -- the reason for eating less fat is that fat has nine calories per gram and protein and carbohydrates have only four. So when you eat less fat, you eat fewer calories without having to eat less food. You lose weight by burning more calories or eating fewer calories.
And so you can eat fewer calories by eating less food or by eating less fat.
CHUNG: So what should I eat for breakfast?
ORNISH: So, breakfast is oatmeal. Or you could have whole-grain cereal with some skim milk or soy milk, some fruit in this case, a yogurt parfait. So you could have some decaf coffee or coffee, whatever, tea, whatever it is that you like to have with breakfast.
For lunch, we have a vegetarian chili which has got some pita bread and some soy cheese, some salad.
CHUNG: But what's the meat?
ORNISH: The meat are veggie burgers. They're soy burgers that are really good. They taste just like
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Do they taste like meat?
ORNISH: They taste like meat, especially when you put them in a chili like this. They taste really good.
CHUNG: OK.
ORNISH: And...
CHUNG: Salad.
ORNISH: Salad, in this case with a fat-free dressing. We've got a vegetable stew that Deborah Madison made, a well-known chef. We have some -- in this case, some salmon with asparagus and some fresh fruit, and for snacks, some different vegetables with some -- in this case, hummus.
CHUNG: So, wait. Do I go out and buy those no fat-things, anything that says no fat?
ORNISH: No, not necessarily, because a lot of things that say no fat are really high in sugar.
And that's the other thing you want to avoid, are the simple carbs, sugar, white flour, white rice. And they give you a double whammy. You get all these calories that don't fill you up and they get absorbed quickly, so they make your blood sugar zoom up. Your body makes insulin to bring it back down, which is good, but the insulin converts those calories into fat.
CHUNG: Aha.
ORNISH: So, now, what the high-protein diet people, like Dr. Atkins and others, say is, well, all carbohydrates are bad, so, you should eat sausage and bacon and Brie and ice cream and that's going to somehow be good for you. And you know what? They're not good for you. I'd love to be able to tell people that those are health foods, but they're not.
CHUNG: So what do you say we should do?
ORNISH: You should go from simple carbs to what are called complex carbs.
CHUNG: What are complex carbs?
ORNISH: Fruits, vegetables, whole wheat bread, brown rice. These are rich in fiber. And the fiber fills you up before you get too many calories and you absorb your food more slowly, so you don't get those insulin spikes.
CHUNG: Your critics will say the high-carb, low-fat diet is what contributed to this rise in obesity recently. What do you say?
ORNISH: I say that they're wrong, because -- you know, there was an article that came out last year that said fat doesn't make you fat, because Americans have been told to eat less fat. The percent of calories from fat is lower than ever. They're fatter than ever. Therefore, fat's not the problem.
CHUNG: See? That's exactly...
ORNISH: But you know what?
CHUNG: What?
ORNISH: Americans are eating more fat than ever. The percent of calories from fat is a little lower, only because the amount of simple carbs is even greater.
But if you actually say the total amount in grams of fat people are eating, they're eating more fat than ever. Now, what separates the diet I recommend from Dr. Atkins and all the others is that we have spent 25 years publishing our findings, including weight loss, but also heart-disease reversal, in the major medical journals. And that's the point of science, is to help people sort out these conflicting claims. They have not done that yet.
CHUNG: Reputable researchers are saying they're going to start doing tests on, for instance, Dr. Atkins' diet plan.
ORNISH: Right.
CHUNG: So what do you say to that?
ORNISH: Well, I welcome research. That's why I spend most of my time doing studies, because that's the whole point of science, is to say, show me the data.
CHUNG: All right, we thought that the best way to find out what people want to know is to ask them to ask you the questions.
ORNISH: Great.
CHUNG: So here's our first one. And this guy is right -- he lives with me, practically, because he likes exactly what I like.
ORNISH: Great.
CHUNG: Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to know -- I love hamburgers and french fries with mayonnaise. And I just want to know if that's definitely not a healthy thing to eat and what's a good substitute, if so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Aha, burgers and fries, love it.
Should Chris not go on your weight-loss program, because he can't eat burgers and fries?
ORNISH: Oh, no. There's lots of things that you can eat. And, again, it's not saying you can never eat burgers and fries. It's saying, if you eat fewer of them, you'll be eating less fat. You'll be eating fewer simple carbs. You'll lose weight. So, just don't eat -- whatever you're doing, eat less of it. Instead, what can you eat?
CHUNG: Don't eat it every day.
ORNISH: Don't eat it every day. You can have soy burgers, for example. They're really quite good. In fact...
CHUNG: Do they taste like meat?
ORNISH: They taste really good, actually.
And when President Clinton was president, we trained the White House chefs. And he switched to eating soy burgers. And they served them on Air Force One and Camp David and the White House.
CHUNG: And he actually ate them?
ORNISH: And he ate them and liked them. And he actually lost a lot of weight when he was doing that.
CHUNG: Really?
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: He was eating McDonald's, wasn't he?
ORNISH: Whatever your politics, when the president of the United States starts eating healthfully, I think that sets a good example for everybody.
CHUNG: Sure.
Let's hear this question. It's about chocoholics.
ORNISH: Aha.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is that I love sweets, just like anything that's sweet, like chocolate, cake, pies, pastries, all that kind of stuff. And I'm wondering, what would be a good alternative to those kind of simple carbohydrates?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ORNISH: I like chocolate, so I'll get the richest, darkest, chocolate-iest chocolate I can find and just get one piece of it and make that a form of meditation. I close my eyes, let it melt in my mouth. You can just savor it for even a few minutes.
CHUNG: Oh, I see. ORNISH: And then that becomes a type of meditation, because you're focusing your full awareness on it. And you get a tremendous amount of sensual pleasure, without the excessive amount that can cause problems.
CHUNG: This sounds great.
All right, one more quick question?
ORNISH: Sure.
CHUNG: It has to do with exercise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How will not eating red meat affect my energy levels while I work out?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ORNISH: Well, the idea that red meat somehow gives you energy, just think about it. How do you feel after you've had a big fatty burger or a big Thanksgiving feast? How do you feel an hour later?
CHUNG: I want to take a nap.
ORNISH: Exactly. It takes away your energy, because your brain is literally getting less oxygen and less blood. So is the rest of your body, whereas, when you go on a very healthy low-fat diet, studies have shown your brain gets more oxygen, more blood flow. You think more clearly. You have more energy. There's no point in giving up something that you enjoy unless you get something back that's better.
CHUNG: Dr. Ornish, I thank you so much for being with us.
ORNISH: My great pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Tomorrow on our "Diet Challenge": an unusual diet guru, Jim Karas, a business school graduate and a private portfolio manager. We'll put his program to the "Diet Challenge."
And tonight's "Snapshot," beginning with what prosecutors are saying about the younger suspect in the D.C. sniper spree.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): In Virginia, authorities say D.C.-area sniper suspect Lee Boyd Malvo says he and alleged accomplice, John Allen Muhammad, were a team. They say Malvo says either suspect could make decisions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have every right to go in this clinic. This clinic is open for service. CHUNG: The U.S. Supreme Court says federal racketeering laws cannot be used to prosecute anti-abortion protesters for blocking clinic doors. The court says such tactics don't qualify as extortion.
Eighteen national retailers have agreed to replace customers' lost, stolen or damaged gift cards, today's version of a gift certificate. Gift cards accounted for $38 billion in sales last year and companies made about $2 billion on unused cards alone.
U.S. troops in Afghanistan are about to get quite a gift. Several cases of Italian food are on the way from a Kansas City restaurant whose owner got a postcard from a pasta-craving soldier.
And some Canadian schoolkids are the best when it comes to winging it. They say they've broken the record by creating 523 snow angels on the same field, shattering the old mark by 128 angels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: our "Person of the Day," a roadside delivery.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
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CHUNG: He's the youngest person we've ever chosen, but his dramatic entry in to the world this morning makes him our "Person of the Day."
It was around 6:00 this morning in New York City. Mother-to-be Elva Novoa was in the car with her mother and brother-in-law on the Queens side of a tunnel into Manhattan approaching the toll booth's E- ZPass Lanes. E-ZPass means quick passage. And for the very pregnant Elva, E-ZPass took on a new meaning. Elva Novoa, was on her way to the hospital, but she didn't make it. Rush hour became push hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELVA NOVOA, RUSH HOUR MOM: I felt the baby coming out. I said: "I'm going to die. The baby is coming out." I was screaming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Elva gave birth near the tunnel entrance before anyone was able to get to her. She was rushed to a nearby hospital, where she is said to be doing fine, as is her 8-pound, 3-ounce son, who has two other siblings waiting for him at home.
And for giving jaded New York commuters something to talk about, this little boy is our "Person of the Day."
And tomorrow: As actor Robert Blake returns to court, what evidence will the prosecution present? Plus, our "Diet Challenge": fitness expert Jim Karas, who says the key to weight loss isn't in your stomach. It's in your head. And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": controversial comic Bill Maher.
Thank you so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and we'll see you tomorrow.
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