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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
North Korea Has Reactivated It's Nuclear Plant; Low Level NASA Engineers Discussed Concerns On Possible Damage Before Columbia's Reentry; Iraq May Use Civilian Structures To Hide Military Equipment
Aired February 26, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN HOST: It is now 6:00 in the East, 3:00 in the West.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE for Wednesday, February 26. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Fears of nuclear showdown with North Korea are renewed tonight. U.S. officials say that North Korea has reactivated its nuclear plant in Yongbyon. Experts say North Korea could begin making nuclear weapons from those spent fuel rods at the plant.
Our national security correspondent David Ensor joins me now with the story -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, just a short time ago U.S. officials confirmed they now have evidence -- intelligence evidence that leads them to believe that this nuclear reactor has been restarted at Yongbyon. This is a plant that was closed down in 1994. It's a five megawatt plant. It's not, therefore, going to produce very much electricity. But, as a by- product of electricity, the plant produces bomb-grade plutonium.
So this is a very disturbing development in the view of U.S. intelligence officials. Here we're looking at some commercial photography of the facilities. There is one building there that's the reactor; there is another that is the reprocessing plant.
Now officials point out the reprocessing plant has not been restarted yet. That would be an even more disturbing development. It has not yet happened. Still, this is clearly a signal from the North Koreans they want attention and they may be planning to move toward nuclear weapons.
If they start the reprocessing plant again, Lou, officials say within about a year, they could have another nuclear weapon. U.S. intelligence believes they already may have one or two.
DOBBS: David, this five kilowatt plant that has been reactivated -- the experts that we have talked with, however, suggest that its real application, its only real practical application, is in the use or processing for nuclear weapons.
Is that not true?
ENSOR: Well, that's the thing.
It's a very inefficient plant if it's to be used for electrical production. It doesn't produce very much electricity. So that is one of the reasons why U.S. officials have been so suspicious about it, and why both the Clinton administration and now the Bush administration have pushed so hard to keep the plant from being restarted. So this is very bad news.
Just as recently as yesterday, Secretary of State Colin Powell was saying that the evidence then was the plant had not been restarted. Officials tell me he was right at the time. Since then, the evidence is they've started the plant.
DOBBS: And, as you say, David, the secretary of state bending at the -- at least of those comments saying that if it was a conscious decision they not done so, it was a wise choice. Apparently they have made another choice today.
David Ensor, our national security correspondent, thank you very much.
A dramatic new development in the investigation into the space shuttle Columbia disaster tonight. One day before the tragedy, NASA engineers warned that the shuttle and its crew could be lost, but their warning was never passed on to top NASA managers.
Our space correspondent, Miles O'Brien has the latest on the story -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is a continuation of a series of e-mails which have been dribbling out from NASA ever since the Columbia accident. It begins, really, at the Langley Research Center in Hampton Roads, Virginia, where a landing gear there -- expert there, Bob Dougherty, looked at the scenario sort of unofficially about the possibility of having some sort of thermal breach on the left main landing gear door.
Now you recall this all begins on launch day, about 82 seconds after launch, when a piece of foam fell off that external tank and struck the left wing, the underside of the wing of the space shuttle Columbia as it rose to orbit. This generated a series of analyses.
At one level, you had Boeing analyzing how much damage it might have caused and whether that would cause any jeopardy to the space shuttle Columbia. No less than three studies conducted by Boeing. They went to the highest level of the shuttle mission management team. They said there was nothing to worry about.
Concurrent to all of this, lower level engineers were sort of batting around some what-iffing scenarios and it's quite extensive, as we've been seeing as it has come out.
Now the day before landing, January 31, Jeff Cling, who was the maintenance and mechanical systems engineer, launched an e-mail which derived this response from William Anderson, a United Space Lines engineer in Houston. His first statement is first, "Why are we talking about this the day before landing, and not the day after launch." And then he goes on to say, "If there were an explosion in the wheel well, with the gear up and locked, I would think the wing panel structure would break before the gear uplocks would be broken." And then, finally, "If the wing is off or has a big hole in it, you're not going to make it to the runway and the gear question is moot."
This was the substantive question, Lou. The question that they were batting around was whether to bail out, to ditch, to try some sort of different trajectory and save the orbiter.
Jeff Cling, the maintenance and mechanical systems flight controller, who was on console that morning and was the one who actually saw the readings, the first indications of trouble on the space shuttle Columbia, had this -- these words on the day before landing. He said, "If there was hot plasma sneaking into the wheelwells, we would see increases in our landing gear temperatures and likely our tire pressures." Both of those came to be. And says, "Ultimately, our recommendation, his team, is that the case is going to be set up for a bailout," once again, continuing this what-iffing and then he puts in parentheses -- and this is the most prescent (ph) of all, "assuming the wing don't burn off before we can get the crew out."
Now there was another series of memos which talked about some simulations they were doing on about landing with no wheels on the left side, and also, the possibility of using U.S. spy satellite capabilities, actually ground capabilities, to take pictures of the shuttle. None of that occurred.
Finally, Carlyle Campbell (ph), one engineer, asks this on January 28, "Any more activity on this tile damage or are people just relegated to crossing their fingers and hoping for the best?" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Miles, dramatic, dramatic warnings from those engineers.
The context of this is an investigation that had begun with the 82 seconds at which we saw the debris hit the orbiter's wing. Where do we go from here?
O'BRIEN: Well, first of all, you have to put these e-mails into their proper context. They did not rise to the level of the likes of Ron Dittemore, the shuttle program director. He saw those other reports, which looked at the analysis and offered up a much more rosy conclusion and scenario.
Meanwhile, this whole e-mail traffic is going on underneath, indicating that there were some genuine concerns, at least being bandied about, mostly, I'm told, from talking to some of these engineers, in the what-iffing mode -- and engineers tend to do this. But there's such a tremendous volume of this and there's so many scenarios that they traded back and forth, that I believe NASA has to explain exactly why this sort of discussion didn't get into the highest levels of the shuttle mission management team. It's a big system, a big program. There's a lot of things going on, a lot of moving parts, if you will. But this is the kind of discussion that I'm sure the senior managers wish they had heard.
DOBBS: Wish they had heard, and I'm sure there are some engineers who had wished today they had made themselves heard.
Miles O'Brien, thank you very much.
And a programming footnote here. NASA's administrator, Sean O'Keefe, will be joining us here ton this broadcast tomorrow evening.
In just over an hour, just actually under an hour, President Bush will deliver what's billed by the White House as a major speech on Iraq. The speech to the American Enterprise Institute will lay out the president's vision for the future of Iraq and, indeed, the Middle East.
Our senior White House correspondent, John King, joins me now with some details on what the president is to say -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this president insists he has not made a final decision yet to go to war with Iraq. Yet, as you noted, about an hour from now, Mr. Bush will lay out what is an ambitious, some already saying overly optimistic, vision a post-Saddam, post-war, democratic Iraq that Mr. Bush says could serve as a beacon, an example to the entire Middle East region.
Mr. Bush says in this the speech that it will require quite a commitment from the United States and other nations to rebuild Iraq after a war. Mr. Bush says the United States is prepared to make that commitment and he equates it to the commitment the United States made to Japan and Germany after World War II.
Mr. Bush, in the speech, talks about the stakes and he will say -- quote -- "bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world Saddam Hussein has chosen for them."
Mr. Bush, we are told , will cast this not only in terms of international law -- in his view that the United States must uphold the demands of the United Nations, but also cast it in a moral tone, saying that the American people have the urgent need, because of our history in the United States, to come to the aid of the Iraqi people and free them from a repressive dictator.
And Lou, as you noted at the top of the show, administration officials also preparing an emergency spending request to pay for the war. White House officials say it is premature to discuss any figures publicly, but we are told it could run as high as 95 to $100 billion, although the budge director here at the White House urging people to be more modest, look for an emergency spending bill of perhaps $60 billion once a war starts -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much. Our senior White House correspondent, John King.
President Bush's principle partner in the coalition against Saddam Hussein is, of course, British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Blair's opponents have been intensively critical of the policy on Iraq, but today, the British prime minister won an important victory in parliament. The House of Commons gave Blair an overwhelming vote of support and a resolution backing United Nations' efforts to disarm Iraq.
While Prime Minister Blair won an important vote on Iraq, the French prime minister hardening his government's stand against a possible war. He told French lawmakers that war against Iraq would be, quote, "precipitous and illegitimate." French President Jacques Chirac also criticized U.S. and British policy today as he's done for weeks. He said war is not inevitable and disarmament can be reached by peaceful means.
Iraq is certainly not helping the French in their support of Saddam Hussein. Today, Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Hans Blix said there are no signs that Iraq fully cooperating with the United Nations on disarmament. Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth has a report for us -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, two quick points. Hans Blix's latest report circulating through the building, it has to go through a lengthy translation process. One diplomat who saw it says nothing really new. It's a summation of every event since December and the weapons inspectors are waiting to see if Iraq destroys those Al Samoud missiles this weekend.
Going on right now, this was one hour ago, the selling of a resolution. that's U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte. There's a meeting at the Mission of Chile. Chile, on of the so-called Middle Six, non-permanent members without vetoes who may play an important role in deciding whether the U.S. gets that new resolution on Iraq.
U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Negroponte, explained the goals of meetings like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: What we're trying to do is trying to build the broadest and strongest possible support for the draft resolution which we think deserves the endorsement of the Council. We submitted the resolution the other day. We're going to have our first consultations on it tomorrow in the Security Council. And we'll see how it goes from there, but we think it deserves strong support. And we're hopeful and optimistic that it will receive the required number of votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: The U.S. needs nine votes and no vetoes to get this resolution passed. First day of discussions tomorrow morning -- Lou.
DOBBS: Any indication at this point whether China or Russia has made a decision on whether or not they will veto or withhold a veto on the resolution?
ROTH: No decision. No one showing their cards. Whether Iraq destroys those missiles maybe a big key role in deciding that.
DOBBS: Richard Roth from the United Nations, thank you.
NATO military equipment began arriving in Turkey today. AWAC surveillance aircraft, Patriot missiles all there in defense of Turkey against Iraq should there be a war. Several U.S. huge cargo ships waiting off the Turkish coast now to unload material for the 4th Infantry Division. Some American equipment has been unloaded for advanced troops. Turkey's parliament is expected to debate the U.S. deployment tomorrow.
The number of Reserve and National Guard troops called up for active service has now reached nearly 170,000. The Pentagon said the total includes more than 16,000 troops who were called up just last week. Many of those Reservists are headed to the Persian Gulf. Others, however, will replace active duty troops who have been deployed overseas.
The Pentagon now says 190,000 U.S. troops are in the Persian Gulf. It would not discuss details of individual unit deployments. More than 40,000 British troops are also either on their way or now in the region.
In a major development today U.S. forces will now be able to use a key air base in Saudi Arabia should there be a war against Saddam Hussein. Saudi Arabia had previously refused to allow any U.S. forces to use that facility in attack against Iraq. Sources told CNN that the United States and Saudi Arabia have agreed to allow U.S. troops complete access to the Prince Sultan Air Base. That base has an important command and control center.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has used Osama bin Laden's favorite television network to give some advice to Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld told the Arab Al-Jazeera Network that the best choice for Saddam Hussein is to now leave Iraq. The defense secretary said that would allow the Iraqi people to form a representative government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: One is to cooperate. And he hasn't done it. We wish he would. A second choice is to do nothing and lead to a potential conflict which is everyone's last choice. And a third choice is to leave the country and have someone in that country that the Iraqi people want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Still ahead here, CNN Military Analyst General David Grange will join us to discuss Turkey and U.S. strategy in the region.
Also, a warning today to Saddam Hussein today and the people who are prepared to act as his human shields. Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story -- Jamie. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's a question of should the Pentagon pay attention to human shields who are volunteers? I'll report on how the Pentagon is wrestling with that question and its ramifications for the war plan.
DOBBS: Four Arab men indicted today as part of the continuing crack down on illegal money transfers. We'll have details on these latest charges.
And on Wall Street today, the Dow dropped more than 100 points. Oil prices soared. Christine Romans will have the market for us.
And two former Kmart executives were indicted today, charged with a multi-million dollar fraud. That story, a great deal more just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Four Arab men were indicted in Syracuse, New York today for illegally raising money for Iraqi citizens. The federal indictment said the men used a charity called Help the Needy to send several million dollars to Iraq. Most of that money was laundered through Jordanian banks. The U.S. government banned money being sent to Iraq in 1990. Today's charges have no apparent connection to terrorism or the Iraqi government.
In a separate incident that does have a relationship to terrorism, the Justice Department announced the indictment and arrest of a Saudi student who lives in Idaho. The Saudi student was arrested for visa fraud and for failing to disclose his involvement with an organization that promotes terrorism.
A warning tonight that may seem obvious to almost everyone. Anyone who volunteers to be a so-called human shield in Iraq will be risking his or her life. General Tommy Franks said American and allied forces will not guarantee their safety. Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): In 1990, Saddam Hussein held hundreds of foreign nationals and dispatched them to strategic sites in Iraq and Kuwait to serve as human shields. In a chilling videotape four months before the war, the Iraqi leader could be seen patting the head of a young boy while telling him he should be happy to help deter attack by the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you getting your milk, Staurt (ph)?
MCINTYRE: But before the war came, Saddam Hussein let the hostages go. And this time, he's taking a different tact, soliciting volunteers, including between 100 and 200 Western anti-war protesters.
But some in the Pentagon question whether volunteers are still noncombatants, or have they crossed the line to assist the Iraqi regime? RUMSFELD: It's clear that people who put themselves in dangerous positions put themselves in dangerous positions.
MCINTYRE: No matter the circumstance, the Pentagon argues using human shields is a war crime, subject to prosecution.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It is a violation of the Law of Armed Conflict to use noncombatants as a means of shielding potential military targets, even those people who may volunteer for this purpose.
MCINTYRE: The U.S. says Iraq has further endangered civilians by moving military equipment and supplies next to schools, mosques and historic sites. And by making military targets out of otherwise civilian structures, for example, by placing anti-aircraft guns on the roof of the Ministry of Information.
The Pentagon is anxious to avoid a repeat of what happened in February of 1991. When the U.S. Bombed what it thought was a command bunker, only to discover it was a bomb shelter by civilians. The deaths of 293 mostly women and children caused a temporary pause in the bombing of Baghdad and handed Saddam Hussein a PR victory.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: So, what happens if a key target is surrounded by civilians? Well, the Pentagon says they will try to work around human shields but not guaranteeing that any militarily significant targets will be taken off the list just because they're protected by human shields -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you.
Senior military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, from the Pentagon.
As we reported, the Pentagon hopes to base 62,000 combat troops in Turkey for any attack against Iraq should the president order it. Their mission is to open a northern front against Saddam Hussein's army.
I'm joined now by General David Grange.
General, good to have you here.
GEN. DAVID GRANGE, MILITARY ANALYST: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: The Turks are bidding hard and negotiating apparently very well in terms of the money that they'll win from the United States for their support. Yet, their own troops will not be involved in combat.
What will be the U.S. forces' reaction to that?
GRANGE: Well, the idea of the second front up north will allow U.S. forces to move in of overwhelming strength. I think it will motivate the Kurds in the area. Reduce the number of refugees moving to the Turkish border. It'll take down targets faster because of the northern front. Like oil fields, as an example. And it's, I think, very important that the Turkish forces remain near their border to support the refugee issue and not occupy portions of Iraq, because that would cause a reaction from the Kurds and maybe some others.
DOBBS: The Kurdish Iraq.
GRANGE: Exactly.
DOBBS: General, the troop strength now approaching a quarter of a million troops in the Gulf.
Is that a sufficient level now?
Should the president make the decision to order an attack?
GRANGE: Well, the attack may be ordered tonight, tomorrow. Just depends on the situation, of course. I think it's sometime off, though, near the last half of March. There's a lot of troops in the area that can take care of contingencies that come up but the optimum force level has yet to be reached especially with the forces coming from Turkey. That the final (UNINTELLIGIBLE), because that takes three weeks to move through the mountains to where they'd cross the border.
DOBBS: The Prince Sultan Air Base will now be available to U.S. forces.
How important in your judgment is the Saudi judgment to support U.S. Forces to at least that extent.
GRANGE: Very important. It disperses the aircraft units. That's a force protection issue. Also reduces the takeoff and landing density in a few airfields. It spreads that out for rapid turn around of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And shortens the distance to the objective areas that some of these aircraft would have to hit. It's funny that it's OK, though, on some of the countries to authorize an aircraft that may drop several thousand pound bombs, but I guess 1 trooper walking across the border has a different connotation. But anyway, I'm sure we're very appreciative of having that air base for air operations.
DOBBS: And General David Grange, we're appreciative of your time here this evening. Thank you.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
Coming up next, a Wall Street, stocks falling across the board.
Christine Romans will join me with the story.
Two Kmart executives indicted securities fraud.
Peter Viles, will have that story -- Peter.
PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: It's whole lot like those Qwest indictments we talked about yesterday. The government sending a clear message it is not going to wait until the entire investigations are over. Going to write up the indictments as soon as it thinks it can prove them -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Peter. We look forward to the story.
Protesters today trading in picket signs for telephones, faxes and computers. A virtual march on Washington. I'll be joined by Tom Andrews, the man behind this virtual protest
And hard rocker Ted Nugent will join us to tell us why war with Iraq in his judgment is necessary.
And in her new book, "Tearing Down the Walls, " Monica Langley will be here to give us her inside look at how Citigroup Chairman and CEO Sandy Weill built the largest financial empire. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Two former Kmart executives today indicted on charges of fraud. The indictment the first criminal case related to Kmart, which filed for bankruptcy more than a year ago. Authorities say the two men inflated the earnings by $42 million.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VILES (voice-over): Today it was Kmart in Detroit. Yesterday, Qwest in Denver. In both cases, federal prosecutors alleging the same kind of fraud. Improper revenue recognition by mid-level executives, which makes it clear that Justice Department and the SEC are not waiting to finish these big investigations. They're writing up indictments as soon as they can.
LYNN TURNER, FMR. CHIEF ACCOUNTANT, SEC: The enforcement agencies are as they get through the investigation, get done with someone, they're bringing the case. Not waiting to charge 20 people at one point in time. They're going to get charged as they get each person's investigation done. You're going to see them roll up the ladder starting at the middle or the bottom.
VILES: Indited by a Detroit grand jury, former Kmart Senior VP Tony Montini and former VP Joseph Hofmeister. The allegation, American Greetings paid $42 million for a 5 year exclusive deal with Kmart. But then instead of spread that revenue over 5 years, they booked it all immediately.
TOM NEWKIRK, DIV. OF ENFORCEMENT, SEC: They told the accounting people, no strings attached to the $42 million. In fact, there was a five-yearlong string that was attached to it. And they hadn't earned the money and not entitled to book it at that time.
VILES: They issued a joint statement denying engaging in fraud, saying accounting experts actually disagree on the timing of such revenue recognition. Kmart's bankruptcy is already a messy one. The company now claiming former CEO Charles Conaway misled the board. Conaway denies any wrongdoing, says he's being made a scapegoat for problems inherited.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Now, Kmart hopes to come out of the bankruptcy in April, Lou. But not clear how to turn the company around. They're have been losing market share to Wal-Mart and Target for years now. And the company does acknowledge that the bankruptcy itself is bad for morale. Can't imagine this is any better for morale -- Lou.
DOBBS: Peter, thank you very much, Peter Viles.
There was a clear lack of morale today on Wall Street where stocks ended lower across the board.
Christine Romans has the market for us now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Lou, the mood decidedly negative today on Wall Street. Triple digit Dow decline. Two stocks fell for every stock that rose. The Dow is now just 57 points above the year's low. Part of the problem, Lou, oil prices near $38 a barrel. The worst sector, computer stocks led by Hewlett-Packard Compaq, it's first quarter revenue disappointed. A barrage of downgrades and estimates cuts ensued and that took the stock down 15% today.
A high light though, Tyco up 3%. J.P. Morgan calling Tyco one of the best stock stories for the next several years. J.P. Morgan thinks the stock is too cheap and an attractive play now after its shares have been cut in half over the past year.
Another stand out, Tiffany shares soaring 6 percent on a solid earnings report. Profit there up slightly in a tough retail environment and the company reports Valentine's Day, Lou, has the new quarter off to a good start.
Back to you.
DOBBS: All right. Thanks very much, Christine.
Coming up next, anti-war protests flood Washington, D.C. There protesters were virtually invisible. Maria Hinojosa will have a special report for you. And we'll speak to the real mastermind of that virtual protest and we'll talk with rock legend Ned -- Ted Nugent. He'll tell be here to tell us why he says a war with Iraq just may be necessary.
All of that and more when we continue. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE continues. Here again, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: These are the top stories tonight. There's been a disturbing development in the North Korean nuclear crisis. U.S. officials say North Korea has reactivated its nuclear reactor at Yongbyon. Those officials say it is a sign that North Korea may be proceeding with its nuclear weapons program.
President Bush, in a major speech tonight, will lay out his vision of a Middle East without Saddam Hussein. As our senior White House correspondent, John King, reported the president will say that Iraq without Saddam Hussein, will be a beacon for democracy throughout the region. CNN will have live coverage of the president's speech, which begins at about 7:15 Eastern this evening.
And dramatic news on the investigation into the Columbia shuttle disaster tonight. One day before the disaster, NASA engineers warned the shuttle and its crew could be lost. The warning, however, never passed on to top NASA managers.
Anti-war protesters recently visible in capitals around the world. But in Washington, D.C. today, a less visible protest took place. Nonetheless, an effective one. A virtual march. Maria Hinojosa reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For those in the Senate offices answering the phones, there was nothing virtual about Wednesday's demonstration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. I'll definitely pass on your message to the senator.
HINOJOSA: It was work. And if it wasn't the phones ringing off the hook, it was the faxes or the e-mails that came throughout the day. So many calls for the first ever virtual anti-war march in Washington...
MECHANIZED VOICE: We're sorry. All circuits are busy now.
HINOJOSA: ...that the Capitol's phone system jammed at one point.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: At Senator Feinstein's office, six staffers were dedicated just to the phones. Hundreds of calls Wednesday added to the 40,000 anti-war calls she's received over the past month.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I've learned when they get up over 30, 40,000 from California, then I know there is really a movement; 40,000 phone calls, I think that we have received so far, probably the highest number of calls we have gotten for anything.
HINOJOSA: Anti-war activists, in this modern age say the virtual world has made the work easier. It took only weeks to pull together millions around the world for street protests because of e-mail communication. It helped coordinate Wednesday's full page "New York Times" ad by musicians against the war. Whatever the forum, the movement says it's got a clear message that is finally getting out.
TOM ANDREWS, CITIZENS FOR PUBLIC ACTION: Don't invade Iraq. Don't occupy Iraq when it's unnecessary. We don't have to kill innocent people. We don't have to put Americans at risk.
HINOJOSA (on camera): Several people who took part in the virtual demonstration said it took them anywhere from a half an hour to an hour to make their calls to the senators' offices, but most were finally able to get through.
The protesters are claiming they were able to jam the White House switchboard. When CNN attempted to call, we weren't able to get through, but the White House did not acknowledge any problems.
Organizers are saying that over a million people across the country took part in the virtual demonstration, but the downside of a virtual march is that there's no hard and fast way to prove that.
Maria Hinojosa, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tom Andrews is the man who is waging this virtual protest in Washington. He's a former Democratic Congressman from Maine. He's the coordinator of the Win Without War coalition that organized today's virtual protest and joins me now from Washington, D.C.
Good to have you here.
ANDREWS: Thanks so much, Lou. Thanks for having me on.
DOBBS: Success or not?
ANDREWS: A tremendous success. These numbers exceeded all of our expectations by several times.
We wanted to provide people with an opportunity to stand up and be counted on this issue, people who couldn't go to major cities, New York or Washington, but nonetheless felt strongly about this invasion, and occupation. So, we provided them with this opportunity.
And the second important thing we felt was for senators to hear directly from constituents. You know, a senator can look out on the Mall and see it filled with protester. But to actually hear from people from their own state, representing a broad cross-section of their population we thought was extremely important. So it was very successful.
DOBBS: You think that it's actually a -- might have more impact to receive, if you will, a virtual protest than to see a real live demonstrators out there on the streets?
ANDREWS: I think it's not one or the other. I think this provides us with a tremendous asset to get the message directly into senators' offices.
The most important voice in politics are those coming from your own constituency, the people that put you in office, the people you're accountable to. So we thought it was very important for members of the Senate to hear from those people.
DOBBS: Tom, your organization is Win Without War. I don't suppose I can imagine any reasonable person not wanting to Win Without War. The president himself says war is a last resort.
How should this war be avoided and how in the world can we win?
ANDREWS: We feel very strongly that we must contain and disarm Saddam Hussein. And the way to do that, we believe, is with tough inspections, where inspectors are provided the tools to seek out and destroy weapons of mass destruction with the threat of force right there.
But we think that can be done with the United Nations, using the Security Council weapons inspection process, and therefore, avoid all of the risks and the fatalities that would be involved a full-frontal assault on Iraq.
We know for a fact that from the CIA, for example, that Saddam Hussein can't, even if he wants to use his weapons of mass destruction -- he can't use them under these circumstances. But he will use them, they tell us, at the point when we invade.
We also have learned from our allies in that region, that very volatile region, that an invasion will create havoc in that area. We also know, of course...
DOBBS: Where, Tom, would it create havoc?
ANDREWS: It would create havoc throughout the Islamic world. We know from the leaders of every Islamic country...
DOBBS: In Saudi Arabia?
ANDREWS: Yes, in every Islamic country.
DOBBS: In Syria?
ANDREWS: Yes, in every Islamic country. In Jordan, in Turkey. The Jordanians and the Turks provided testimony last week before the United Nations saying that, in their words, an attack would create havoc in this region. So why throw gasoline on an already volatile region and why put us, as Americans, at risk by giving Osama bin Laden, probably the biggest, most potent recruitment tool he could ever imagine: a U.S. occupation of Iraq and therefore create a whole generation of suicide terrorists threatening our interests, threatening people?
DOBBS: Surely, Tom, you're not suggesting that terrorists would begin acting against the United States because the United States and its partners, including Britain, attacking Iraq? September 11 was a rather stark and tragic demonstration of the vulnerability of this country to terrorism.
ANDREWS: The people who are telling us this, Lou, is the Central Intelligence Agency and independent sources throughout the region. They're saying that right now, Saddam Hussein has no interest. He can't use the weapons of mass destruction. He has no interest in providing those weapons to terrorists.
DOBBS: Well, Tom...
ANDREWS: But if he is attacked, if there is no choice, if there's nothing to loose, the CIA tells us it's at precisely that point that those weapons of mass destruction are most vulnerable to be put
ANDREWS: ... weapons of mass destruction. Has no interest in providing those weapons to terrorists.
But if he is attacked, if there is no choice, if there's nothing to loose, the CIA tells us it's at precisely that point that those weapons of mass destruction are most vulnerable to be put into the hands of terrorists.
DOBBS: Do you give the Bush administration great credit because you've put great faith in the inspections process which has been basically ineffective for 12 years? You do give the Bush administration some considerable credit, do you not, for beginning this regimen of inspection by the United Nations this time around?
ANDREWS: We give them credit. We think important pressure has to be put on this process. But we don't believe that that means going to war.
And just to correct you, Lou, you know, and this is a misconception a lot of us have had. Those weapons inspections during the 1990s destroyed more weapons of mass destruction than our entire armed forces were able to destroy in the Gulf War...
DOBBS: Oh, Tom, Tom, please. If you're going to correct me, correct me on something that deserves it. The only reason there were...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: No, sir. It's not a fact.
ANDREWS: Well...
DOBBS: In point of fact, there would have been no weapons inspections had not the United States, Britain and its allies not attacked the forces of Iraq that were -- had invaded Kuwait. They only followed those forces. So, please, if we're going to correct one another, let's keep it to the facts.
ANDREWS: OK...
(CROSSTALK) DOBBS: Excuse me. Tom.
ANDREWS: OK.
DOBBS: If you have a statement, I'll give you the last word here. If we can, let's keep it to the facts.
ANDREWS: OK, well here are the facts. After that invasion, we had weapons inspections. And, yes, it's very important that the United States played a very important role in allowing those weapons inspections to go into force.
But the point, Lou, is that those weapons inspections destroyed more weapons of mass destruction than our entire armed forces did in the entire Gulf War. In other words, they work. And what we're saying is let's give them every opportunity to work before we go to war.
DOBBS: And if we can win without war I think you will probably find unanimous support.
ANDREWS: That's great.
DOBBS: Tom Andrews, thank you very much for being with us.
ANDREWS: Lou, thank you.
DOBBS: Come back soon.
Coming up next, not all celebrities are against war against Iraq. We'll be joined next by Ted Nugent. He sold more than 30 million albums. He's the author of the "New York Times" bestseller "God, Guns & Rock 'N' Roll." And he supports the removal of Saddam Hussein by force, if necessary.
And Sandy Weill overcame incredible odds to rise to the top of Citigroup. "Wall Street Journal" reporter Monica Langley wrote the fascinating new book about it, "Tearing Down the Walls." And she joins us right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Citigroup's recent problems have been widely publicized from the investigation into its analyst, Jack Grubman, the effort to enroll his toddlers into a exclusive Manhattan preschool, with a sizable price tag to the company, and, of course, the company's ties to Enron.
The new book "Tearing Down the Walls" provides an unprecedented behind the scenes look into the executive office of Citigroup. "The Wall Street Journals" Monica Langley chronicles CEO Sandy Weill's the unlikely rise to CEO of what has become the nation's largest financial services firm.
Monica, good to have you here.
MONICA LANGLEY, AUTHOR, "TEARING DOWN THE WALLS": Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks for writing a terrific book.
LANGLEY: Thanks.
DOBBS: Why Sandy Weill?
LANGLEY: Sandy such a larger than life character. You know, he can be a really brash bully, but he can also be true management genius, a deal maker extraordinaire. And the great thing about him is his life tells the story of Wall Street and the financial industry for the last 50 years. He's a great vehicle.
DOBBS: I can remember sitting in the Seagram's Building with Sandy Weill and Jamie Diamond, now 22 year ago...
LANGLEY: When he was in exile?
DOBBS: He was in exile. Talking about this thing commercial credit maybe and a few things. To see what he's accomplished and you what chronicle is truly remarkable.
LANGLEY: It is. This was -- when you met with him, it was probably the Four Seasons Restaurant. his favorite watering hole.
DOBBS: It's a great watering hole.
LANGLEY: And he was -- he had been basically pushed out of American Express because he clashed with the WASP-y environment and the button-down environment there. And then he was out on his own and he found a dinky consumer finance company in Baltimore and that became the seed of what is today Citigroup, the world largest empire, financially.
DOBBS: And now he's got Jack Grubman. He's sitting there trying to make every maneuver. As a matter of fact, tonight, as we're talking, as you well know, there is talk that the global settlement with Wall Street firms over the conflict of interest with analysts is falling apart. we don't know it, but there's a great deal of talk about it. He's made a number of maneuvers that has not been helpful to that global settlement. What do you think of the job he's doing right now?
LANGLEY: Gosh, you know, if you look at the numbers alone, the numbers in terms of the profitability of Citigroup, it made $16 billion last year which is made it more profitable than ExxonMobil or GE.
However, the reputation hit to Sandy and Citigroup has been intense. At one point in the fall because of the Wall Street scandals that you referred to, Citigroup lost astounding $100 billion in market capitalization.
So, a lot of people -- Sandy decided not to take his own bonus because the stock has really suffered because of what's happened in the last year. DOBBS: You know, when I hear -- and I, by the way, I will tell you, I have great respect for Sandy Weill, have for a great deal of time.
LANGLEY: And he you.
DOBBS: The fact of the matter is, Sandy Weill foregoing a bonus is just...
LANGLEY: Yes, yes, yes.
DOBBS: You know, we're just not going to hold a benefit for him.
LANGLEY: And it's not completely without something, he's getting, you know, several million dollars in options. And you notice those options do not vest for three years, so he has a powerful incentive to stay at the head of Citigroup for another three years.
DOBBS: Yes, we've also watched the governance issues confront Sandy and he's withdrawn from a couple of boards and we're seeing some changes there.
LANGLEY: That really blindsided Sandy. I think he at first thought it's OK to be on the AT&T board, United Technologies, be ion these boards. And those people were on his board.
But ultimately, when the Grubman and the AT&T conflict arose, directors within Citi told Sandy, You've got to get off these boards. It's a conflict.
DOBBS: And Sandy always wise to market forces reading the market and reacting. Some would argue whether or not he's done it soon enough. But a fascinating book.
LANGLEY: Thanks.
DOBBS: Monica, thanks for being here.
LANGLEY: Thank you very much, Lou. Appreciate it.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Coming up next here, I'll be joined by another bestselling author. Ted Nugent will be my guest. He says Saddam may have to go by force. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Celebrities such as Susan Sarandon and Martin Sheen have appeared in television ad's speaking out against any possible war against Iraq.
Ted Nugent is breaking the mold, however. Nugent says a war with Iraq may well be necessary and joins me now.
Ted, good to have you with us. TED NUGENT, AUTHOR: Thank you, Lou. I appreciate the opportunity to speak out.
DOBBS: The issue of celebrities holding forth, I mentioned two of them now, on this war, what is it that makes celebrities think that their view on a political issue is important or needs to be heard?
NUGENT: Well, I'm fortunate to have a dialogue with working hard, plain hard America. Both within the great celebrity network of farmers and cops and welders and mechanics. And also, musicians and the actors. And we're celebrating -- I salute them if are opposed to what I stand, and politically opposed to what I stand for. We the people all have the right and the duties to stand up and be heard. That's what we're doing. We all have the right, and I believe the morale duties, to stand up and be heard.
So, that's what we are doing. I think all of us have the right and the duty as a free people celebrating we the people to speak up. I just think the celebrities get more spotlight because that's how this society operates. We're fascinated with the arts. We're fascinated with acting and music. It's a big part of the quality of life and we're called upon. I salute those that stand up. Regardless from what walk life they may come from.
DOBBS: Well, you know, it's a wonderful thing that you're do, in saluting them, and frankly, so do I. Because we cherish democracy, that means free speech. It means putting forth opinions
NUGENT: Lou, if I may, what I noticed -- I spent time on a radio show last night with Jeanne Garofola. I hope I am pronouncing her name correctly. And she and I are opposed. But you know, they're passionate. For the most part, they're knowledgeable. I saw the interviews with the people that protest and I don't believe that some of the people at the protests -- in fact, I'm convinced they didn't know what the issues were. They weren't aware. Some of the statements by some of the celebrities, as well as some of the citizens of this country, they're well informed. And you have to salute them for that.
DOBBS: And some...
NUGENT: Some are absolutely malformed, malinformed and totally out of the loop.
DOBBS: Why are so many celebrities liberals?
NUGENT: There is an insulation factor. This morning, not only did I go wild bore hunting with a buddy, but I also shoveled the kennels and the stalls and carried hay bails and I split wood.
DOBBS: Ted Nugent, staying close to earth.
I'm a hunter. I'm a fisherman. I'm a trapper. I know where god's gift of life comes from. I am a consumer. I'm honest about that. If you're -- if you go with the Elvis, the Jerry Garcia, the John Belushi flow of the insulation of your cause and effect, I guess you'll get high and puke and die. That's the stupidity you pay by allowing yourself to be elevated we the yes men to an ivory tower of denial and insulation. Not admit what you do.
I admit I'm a consumer. I admit evil is what it is and must be destroyed. I think those against the war, from all the words I have heard from them, it's like they're not aware that this Saddam guy is the devil. He's torturing and murdering and destroying the lives of innocent people in his own country.
Yet I have actually heard Rosie O'Donnell and Phil Donahue say, well, have we tried to sit down and reason with the man?
Whoa!
You haven't sat down and reasoned with a snarling foaming at the mouth, you know, rabies infected dog, either.
DOBBS: Well, Tom Andrews "When Without War" was here and he and I were getting at that very issue.
I think most of us -- I think I'll ask you. You would like to win over Saddam Hussein without war, would you not?
NUGENT: Yes, but I'd like to get fuel for my house without digging for oil and chopping wood, too, but unfortunately that's a fantasy.
DOBBS: And, the reality is that in your judgment...
NUGENT: Lou, I'm just a guitar player, but I study history because I want my children's quality of life to be as optimum as it can in this great experiment of self government. We could have saved millions of Jews if we didn't hesitate to intervene in the Holocaust. We could have saved many Americans' lives if we would have got tougher sooner in the second World War.
I believe that we should learn from the lessons and the mistakes of the past. Identify the evil based on irrefutable evidence. Modify our approach to guaranteed as few innocent casualties as possible. But go in and let our professional, military wizards -- they really are wizards, these men an women.
I speak, Lou, every day, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Army, Coast Guard. At tednugent.com, I'm just blessed with a dialogue with these great men and women. These heroes, the warriors on the front lines sacrificing their lives for we the people. And these men and women are ready to rock.
DOBBS: And they're great young men and women.
NUGENT: Yes, boy, they're my heroes.
DOBBS: And the deliberative pace of the president following in the Congress and making this decision is appropriate. When we're talking as the president said yesterday, I was privileged to be at the White House with the president and a number of other reporters. He said, no one knows better than he the precious cost of war.
And, Ted Nugent, like to come back and talk real soon about this.
NUGENT: I'd be pleased to. Thanks for the opportunity.
Coming up next, we'll have your thoughts on aid to Turkey, those who support Saddam Hussein.
And one women's special delivery put the rush in this morning's rush hour. We'll tell you about a birth that couldn't wait. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: And this just in to CNN, Glenn Hubert, the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, is resigning his post effect February 28. That would be this Friday. Glenn Hubert, the last of the original economic team in the Bush administration. Again that effective the 28th.
Let's take a look now at your thoughts.
Douglas Mann, of Tampa writing in to say, "What's with all these politically correct 'warm and fuzzy' tree-hugging protesters? Not only has the USA proved that Saddam is a habitual liar, it has much proof it cannot divulge, that he has extensive stashes of chemical/biological weapons. If we don't get him now, he will get us later."
And one thought on the U.S. aid package to Turkey. William Hamilton from Holiday, Florida saying, "I think it's all backwards, Turkey should be paying the United States to protect them from Iraq, not the other way around!"
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at moneyline@cnn.com.
And finally tonight, it was the easy-pass lane, but this isn't probably what the transit authority had in mind. A Brookland woman gave birth to a to a baby boy at the entrance to the Manhattan mid- town tunnel right during rush hour. Alvin Novar (ph) alerted a toll booth operator that she was in labor, but gave birth before police or medical personal could arrive. Both mother and son were transported to a local hospital. And tonight we are please to report to you that they are doing very well indeed.
That's MONEYLINE for this Wednesday evening. Join us tomorrow, our guest will be NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe to discuss the Shuttle Columbia investigation and the future of our space program. Former defense secretary, MONEYLINE regular contributor William Cohen will also be here. Please join us. Thanks, for all of here, good night from New York.
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