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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Should Catholic Priests Be Forced to Turn in Child Abusers if They Learn About the Crime During Confession? Senator Zell Miller Against CBS Reality Show Based on Real Hillbillies
Aired February 26, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I am Arthel Neville.
Want to let you know that we're awaiting a news conference out of Syracuse, New York, on a story that is just into CNN. Four people involved in a charity have been charged with illegally sending millions of dollars to Iraq. We are going to bring that news conference to you live when it happens.
At this hour, a grand jury is trying to sort out who is responsible for last week's deadly nightclub fire in West Warwick, Rhode Island. The surviving members of Great White are under subpoena to testify, and CNN correspondent Brian Cabell is there -- and Brian, we all want to know, has Great White testified yet?
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, they showed up at 8:30 this morning at the National Guard complex, where this grand jury proceeding is being held. We expected they would testify. As it turns out, they have not. They emerged about four hours later. Didn't say much to the media, just said they had not testified...
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: OK, Brian Cabell, if you wouldn't mind, I do have to interrupt you. We have to toss to that news conference coming out of Syracuse, New York. Let's dip in now.
GLENN SUDDABY, U.S. ATTORNEY: Good afternoon, and welcome to the U.S. Attorney's Office for the northern district of New York. My name is Glenn Suddaby. I'm the U.S. Attorney, and we're here this afternoon to announce the indictment and commencement of prosecution of four individuals and two organizations that are involved in illegal financial transfers to the country of Iraq. The indictment was unsealed this morning charging the following defendants: Rafil Dhafir of Fayetteville, New York; Maher Zagha of Amman, Jordan; Ayman Jarwan of Syracuse, New York; and Osameh Al Wahaidy of Fayetteville, New York.
The two organizations that are listed in the indictment are Help the Needy, and Help the Needy Endowment, Inc.
The three individuals who reside in central New York were all arrested at approximately 6:00 this morning and taken into custody without incident by federal law enforcement authorities. The four defendants and the two organizations are charged with conspiring to transfer funds to Iraq in violation of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, or IEPA, as it's referred to.
Dhafir and Zagha and the two organizations are charged with 12 counts of money laundering, and one count of conspiracy to commit money laundering. The indictment alleges from approximately 1994 through the present, the defendants conspired to violate executive orders and Treasury Department regulations by transferring funds and other economic resources to one or more persons in Iraq. Executive orders 12722 and 12724 have been in effect since August of 1990, and are commonly referred to as the Iraqi sanctions regulations.
The indictment further alleges that the defendants using the name Help the Needy solicited supposed charitable contributions from people in the United States, and deposited these funds in banks here in central New York, and then transferred much of the money to Iraq through accounts maintained in a Jordan Islamic Bank in Amman, Jordan.
This prosecution is the result of three years of investigation led by a team of assistant United States attorneys here in the northern district of New York, Mike Olmstead (ph), Brenda Sannis (ph), Steve Green (ph), and Greg West (ph), and I'd like to compliment them for their outstanding work at this point, and remind them that their work continues.
The assistant United States attorneys were assisted by a group of agencies, which put in a tremendous effort with regard to this case. The FBI, who is represented by their special agent in charge here today, Keith Evensentez (ph); the IRS, who is represented by their agent, Steven Progosien (ph); Social Security administration, office of the inspector general, Edward Ryan (ph) is here with us today.
The Defense Criminal Investigative Service, Edward Bradley (ph) is here with us today from that agency. The New York State Police superintendent Jim McMahon (ph) is here today. U.S. Customs Service, we have agent Ed Pollack (ph) with us. The Immigration and Naturalization Service, Rory Tario (ph) is here with us today. U.S. Postal Inspections Service Thomas Amadi (ph) is here with us today. Department of Health and Human services, Bruno Verano (ph) is here, and U.S. Marshal's Service, Marshal James Harmel (ph).
I cannot say enough about the outstanding effort, cooperative effort, of these agencies. The criminal activity that they've investigated is sophisticated and complex in nature. It crosses many jurisdictions within this country and outside of this country, and these type of criminal investigations do not happen without the outstanding cooperative effort and coordinated effort that we had with all these agencies, and I'd like to emphasize that, just an outstanding job of working together. Thank you, all of you.
We're going to take questions in a minute. Before I do that, special agent in charge, Keith Devensentez (ph) of the FBI would like to say a few words, followed by the special agent in charge of the IRS Steven Progosien (ph), Superintendent Jim McMahon (ph) -- Keith (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
This case is indicative of where the FBI has law enforcement partners...
NEVILLE: OK, everyone. We have been listening to U.S. attorney for northern New York, Glenn Suddaby letting everyone know that four Middle Eastern men have been charged with illegally sending millions of dollars to Iraq under the guise of charity donations for a group called Help the Needy. Three of those men are in custody. They were taken into custody this morning without incident, and we will continue following that story right here on CNN.
In the meantime, I'm going back to Brian Cabell now, who is in West Warwick, Rhode Island. Brian, you were telling me that early this morning, members of the band Great White showed up there at about 8:30, but they have not yet testified.
CABELL: Yes, Arthel. They came out after about four hours and told us they had not testified. There was no indication as to when they might testify. Then they went to the Public Works Department here, apparently checked on their bus that was confiscated. They are in town, but whether they'll testify later today, later this week, or early next week, we simply don't know at this point.
NEVILLE: Now, of course, Rhode Island attorney general has been complaining that the owners, the brothers Derderian, they have been cooperating more with the media and not with authorities. Are they going to be testifying?
CABELL: Well, we don't know. They haven't told us yet whether they have been subpoenaed, but you are right. The attorney general has come out repeatedly saying they have not come forward to cooperate with law enforcement on this investigation, but one of their attorneys talked to us this morning, and said there's good reason for their not cooperating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY PINE, ATTORNEY: One of the problems I might point out is while the attorney general has been saying we'd like to speak to them, the chief of the West Warwick Police Department, within 24 hours of the event said that he expected that criminal charges would be fired against either or both of the Derderians. So on the one hand, you have the cops saying we expect you to be charged, and nobody in their right mind is just going to walk into the Attorney General's Office after the police officer has already named them as a target.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, you have just said that you would be willing to speak to the attorney general, but would you advise your client, Jeff Derderian, to speak to the attorney general?
PINE: I will speak to the members of the attorney general's department, and then I will evaluate the situation and advise my client accordingly.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CABELL: So again, we don't know what the Derderians are planning to do. We haven't seen them around here for the last few days. One of them, Jeff, who is actually a TV reporter here, has appeared on TV a couple of times over the last six days, but that's about the extent of it.
So exactly what their strategy is at this point, we simply don't know.
NEVILLE: And, of course, the brothers Derderian are the owners of that nightclub, The Station. And the stage manager, Paul Vanner, he has been quite vocal. What's the latest from him?
CABELL: Yes, he's been talking to the media. He has been making the rounds here for the last day and a half or so. He says he sat down with one of the Derderians, Mike Derderian, one of the two owners, about three months ago after one of the concerts inside the nightclub, and he said he was concerned about pyrotechnic use, and he said it was probably not a good idea to use pyrotechnics anymore.
That is what he told Mike.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL VANNER, STAGE MGR., THE STATION: People coming in that I don't know. I know some guys that do pyro that I've work with for years. And I know that they run a safe show and don't really have any much concerns. But people come in to see that band, they see they're using pyro. So, when their band comes in, they want to use it. But I don't know those guys. So, it's kind of like, what you do -- you do it for one you are kind of supposed to do it for all. Instead of that, why don't we do it for none kind of thing.
CABELL: So you did it for none after that point.
VANNER: That's the way I recollected it. We didn't have any bands that used pyro since that conversation.
CABELL: So he took it to heart at that point?
VANNER: He took it heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMBELL: Vanner, told us over that maybe over the last three years they had pyrotechnic displays with bands maybe as dozen times during that three year period. But over the last three or four months he didn't think anybody else had used it, so he thought, he assumed pyrotechnics were no longer allowed, but of course last Thursday they were used. He doesn't know who gave the OK, or whether a OK was given. But that's his position right now. He simply doesn't know who gave the OK, or if the OK was given
NEVILLE: That is what everyone is going to be looking for those answers during the investigation.
OK, Brian Cabell, thank you for that report.
I should mention that, the Rhode Island attorney general will be Wolf Blitzer's guest today at 5:00 Eastern, 2:00 Pacific. Patrick Lynch, Rhode Island's state attorney general will join Wolf Blitzer. Don't miss that report.
We have to take a break right now. But coming up next, what if anything, does oil have to do with the march toward war in Iraq? I know you've seen the war protesters who say oil has a lot to do with it. That debate when we come back. Don't go anywhere the TALK continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Today on TALKBACK LIVE: are Catholic priest going to be forced to report crimes uncovered during confession. Some lawmakers say priests have no business keeping confessions of child abuse secret. We'll have the details.
Then, would you call the reality show based on the "Beverly Hillbillies" Bigotry for bucks?
Georgia Senator Zell Miller does, and he takes CBS to the task on the Senate floor. Tell if you think the concept ridicules a rural minority.
The TALK continues after a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville.
War protesters often say the drive to war is fueled by the thirst for Iraqi oil. We're going to get to that explosive debate in a minute.
But first, there's a whole lot of speculation going on about the cost of war in dollars and cents.
Joining me to talk about it is Phyllis Bennis a fellow at the Institute of Policy Studies. She's the author of "Before and After: U.S. Foreign Policy and the September 11 Crisis."
Also, Steven Schwartz, director of Islam and Democracy Program at the Foundation of Democracies. He is the author of "the Two Faces of Islam."
Welcome to both of you.
OK, Now, according to the "Wall Street Journal," the U.S. could be looking at a tab as low as $65 billion and as much as $95 billion. Now, this would cover a war with Iraq after math and new expenses to fight terrorism.
So, Phyllis, I ask you first, is the price of war with Iraq too high? PHYLLIS BENNIS, INST. FOR POLICY STUDIES: The price is way too high, not only in dollars for this country, but in Iraqi lives and potentially the lives of U.S. service people as well. This is a war that does not have to be fought. It's a war that violates a host of international resolutions and international law. And the cost is way too high, whether we calculate it in dollars or in lives.
NEVILLE: All right, Steven, how do you see it?
STEPHEN SCHWARTZ, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Well, I see this as the beginning of a process of bringing democracy, liberation to the Arab and Muslim world. I see that what takes place in Iraq, it won't make Iraq into Connecticut over the night but will begin a process of democratization. I believe that process will be an incentive to democratization in Iran, which is already in the middle of a substantial process. It will also be an incentive to the beginning of the transformation of Saudi Arabia. I think this is a risk worth are taking. As far as the question of sacrificing American lives, of course I'd never call for sacrificing American lives militarily. But I was in Kosovo. And I was very impressed by something in Kosovo. First of all no American lives were lost in the war for Kosovo.
NEVILLE: OK, but what does that have to do with a potential war with Iraq in terms of lives lost?
SCHWARTZ: Well, I don't see where there's much difference between Iraq and Kosovo.
BENNIS: There is a huge difference?
SCHWARTZ: I that the war can be conducted largely from the air. The troops can go in afterwards.
NEVILLE: But even still sir there will be lives lost.
SCHWARTZ: I said there -- I do not call for sacrificing American lives. I think that Iraqis, and I work with Iraqis every day, I think Iraqi's are ready to take the risk and make the sacrifices for the liberation of their country. And we should respect them for being willing to take the risk and make the sacrifices.
NEVILLE: Hang on for me I've got Mark here in the audience. Stand up.
What did you say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's not willing to sacrifice American lives but perfectly willing to sacrifice the lives of Iraqis?
SCHWARTZ: I'm certainly willing to sacrifice the lives of Saddam Hussein's fascist troops, his secret police, his torturers, his jailers and those who have inflicted pain and suffering on the Iraqi people.
BENNIS: You know what Steve, the problem is Iraq is not populated by 23 million Saddam Hussein. It's populated by...
(CROSSTALK)
BENNIS: Let me just finish here, you went on. It's populated by a large population of people who have lived under a terrible regime, a regime that was put in power by the help of the United States, armed by the United States, financed by the United States, during the years of the worst atrocities. The worst atrocities, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) campaign against the Kurds, the use of poison gas weapons against both Iranian troops and Kurdish civilian, all on our watch.
SCHWARTZ: That wasn't the present president's watch.
BENNIS: It wasn't the present president. It was the...
SCHWARTZ: That is not my watch and it wasn't your watch.
BENNIS: That's right.
SCHWARTZ: It wasn't our watch.
BENNIS: I was out protesting U.S. support for that regime then. And now I don't buy that the U.S. has the interest of the Iraqi people at heart.
SCHWARTZ: I do believe we have the interest of the Iraqi people at heart.
BENNIS: You may but the Bush...
NEVILLE: I do have to go ahead and I need to put a pause in there. Because I have to take a break right now. I want to keep you around for the next break. When we come back we're going to talk a little bit more about Iraq.
And then later, should crimes revealed during confession be kept secret?
Well, some Maryland lawmakers say it's time for Catholic priests to tell all when it comes to child abuse. But what about religious freedom?
Details next, as TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK. Welcome back, everyone.
At every anti-war demonstration you hear it. Critics of the conflict with Iraq repeat it. They say it's all about the oil. Yet the administration denies the hostilities with Iraq are tied to its lucrative oil fields.
Listen to what Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had to say about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The United States does -- is not interested in the oil in that region from Iraq. That's just utter nonsense. It is not specialized in occupying any country. We are interested in having our forces go home.
But we recognize that a coalition might be necessary for a short period until a government of Iraq could be created by the Iraqis, just -- I mean, look at Afghanistan as a model. We don't want to stay in Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK.
So Stephen, if the war with Iraq is not about oil, then what is it about?
SCHWARTZ: It's about what I said to you before. It's about getting rid of the last and worst fascist dictator who is oppressing and tormenting and torturing his people, who is a threat to his neighbors, who is a threat to the peace and order of the world, who is a threat to everything good and true and beautiful in this world. It's about knocking over a man who should have been knocked over 12 years ago, but unfortunately wasn't.
The time is running out. We have to help get rid of this man. I'm not in favor of sacrificing American lives, but I am in favor of answering the cries for help of the Iraqi people, the Shias above all -- the Kurds,the Sunnis, the people of Iraq who want our help, want us to help them get rid of this evil man that we should have helped them get rid of 12 years ago.
NEVILLE: All right.
SCHWARTZ: You want me to tell you more?
NEVILLE: No, no, no, no, no. Hang on. I want to give Phyllis a chance. I paused to let Phyllis jump in there.
SCHWARTZ: Sure.
BENNIS: Right.
You know, this isn't just about oil, but frankly if the main export of the Middle East as a region or the Persian Gulf as a subregion or Iraq as a country was broccoli, we would not be where we are today. This is largely about the question of oil and it's not about access to oil -- and it's not about access to oil.
Oil itself is spongable (ph). It's a global market. We get Iraqi oil now, we'll get it later. That isn't the issue. The issue is control. This issue is control.
It's also the expansion of U.S. power, the same as we saw after the Gulf War 12 years ago. At the end of the war, we suddenly had permanent U.S. bases, troop deployments, ships deployed throughout the region in every one of the countries surrounding Iraq. We're seeing it now in the aftermath of the Afghan War. We're all of a sudden...
NEVILLE: So, Phyllis -- excuse me....
SCHWARTZ: Arthel?
NEVILLE: So Phyllis, then the U.S. -- what? -- Uses 26 percent of the world's oil and only 35 percent of that produced domestically.
So, again, I ask you, do you think the U.S.'s need for oil is driving the war with Iraq or...
BENNIS: It's part of it. It's certainly part of it.
The problem is we don't take seriously the need to get alternatives to oil, alternative fuels that do not depend on fossil fuels and destroying the lands of all of these countries. It's not only about Iraqi oil; it's about oil from Saudi Arabia, Nigeria.
Look at these countries that we depend on for access to oil. They are some of the least democratic countries around. And that's not an accident. So I think it's wrong to say this is only about oil. But to say that it's absurd, as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said, is clearly absurd on its face. This has as much to do with oil as it does about the expansion of U.S. military and political power.
NEVILLE: All right, Stephen, I know you want to reply to that, but I have an e-mail coming in right now I want to go ahead and share with you...
SCHWARTZ: Sure.
NEVILLE: ...from Toni in South Carolina. Toni says, "If Iraq had no oil, Bush would find some other enemy to distract our attention from his record of consistent failure in domestic, international and economic policy."
Go ahead, Stephen. I'm sure you'll have something to say about that.
SCHWARTZ: Well, this is what was said about -- it was obscene. I recall how obscene it was when certain people said we went into Kosovo to divert attention from Monica Lewinsky. There are people out there who always make these claims.
It's not about oil. It's not about broccoli. It's about blood. It's about the blood that's been shed by Saddam Hussein, the blood of his own people. It's about ending the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. And I don't know if Dr. Bennis would be here today if it weren't for the oil. But I would be here today, because all of my life I have been on the side of the oppressed. I have been on the side of the victims of fascism. I have been on the side of the victims of dictatorship and I don't understand why liberals and leftists today do not want to stand up and assist the Iraqi people, the Kurds, the Shias, the Muslims and Arabs in getting rid of corrupt regimes like that of Saddam Hussein.
BENNIS: You know, I think that I would support the people's efforts in Iraq, in Saudi Arabia, in Kuwait, in any country facing an absolute dictatorship, whether we call it a monarchy or not, who faces these kinds of human rights violations, et cetera.
The worst violations of human rights took place when the U.S. was backing Iraq. That's where the hypocrisy comes in. We were selling the seed stock for the biological weapons for anthrax, Ecoli, botulism, all those germ stocks came from a small company right outside of Washington here in Rockville, Maryland. And for us to claim that now the presence of whatever scraps remain of those biological seed stock that we sold under license from the Commerce Department, it wasn't some black market operation, is the height of hypocrisy.
NEVILLE: OK.
BENNIS: The main thing that's hurting Iraqis today are the economic sanctions that are starving people and denying them access to water.
NEVILLE: Hmmm. You know what? We could actually continue this conversation because I have more questions to what you just said, Phyllis, but I do have to take a break.
Listen, Phyllis Bennis and Steven Schwartz, thank you so much for the lively discussion. Do appreciate it, and we'll have you back again.
BENNIS: Thank you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK.
SCHWARTZ: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Sure.
Coming up next -- should what you confess to your priest be revealed, if it deals with a crime? We're going to tell you what one Maryland lawmaker has in mind and why the Catholic Church is fighting it.
Details next as TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS ALERT)
NEVILLE: Now when Catholics goes to confession, they are confident that their sins will remain a secret between themselves, their priest and god. But now Maryland legislators are considering whether Catholic priests should be forced to turn in child abusers if they learn about the crime during confession. We have this report now from Jeff Hagar (ph) at CNN affiliate station WMAR.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF HAGAR, WMAR (voice-over): It is a vow as old as the Catholic Church itself. Anything said in the privacy of the confessional stays there. But in an effort to stop child abuse in the church, some lawmakers would pry open that door, and it's drawing criticism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In trying to solve one problem, it creates a bigger problem. And what it does is it says that no longer can a person in open conscience go to their priest and confess their sins because they have to worry about the priest reporting them.
HAGAR: Supporters of the bill agree that it's a matter of trust, that they argue the trust broken when a priest molests a child should come first.
ELLEN MUGMAN, COALITION TO PROTECT MARYLAND CHILDREN: It's been misrepresented to the public. It really nearly limits the overly broad exemption, way beyond the confessional that is now in current law.
MARK SERRANO, SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS: I don't think the Catholics have anything to fear about the confessional being tampered with here. This is an earnest effort by legislators to try to correct decades-old crimes and cover-ups in the church.
HAGAR: Mark Serrano has firsthand knowledge of such abuse. He traveled here to testify from New Jersey, where he claims a priest molested him from the time he was nine years old until he reached the age of 16.
SERRANO: As a matter of fact, I was sexually assaulted in a confessionional, under the seal of confession. And it's part of the reason I was silent for so many years about abuse.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: OK. And there is Mark Serrano right there, because he's joining us here to talk about this. Mark is a board member of SNAP, the Survivors Network for Those Abused by Priests. And William Donahue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil rights. Want to welcome both of you gentlemen.
SERRANO: Thank you, Arthel.
WILLIAM DONAHUE, : Thank you.
NEVILLE: OK. Mark, I'm going to start with you. Do you have any problems with this bill?
SERRANO: Well, sure. Look, this legacy of crime and cover-up happened because bishops placed the institutional church and the priesthood above the protection of children, Arthel. And if you're a Catholic parent today, and god forbid your child was being raped by a coach or a priest or a teacher, and threatened the life of the child if she or he told anyone, and the only place in the world that your child felt safe to speak about it was in the confessional, you'd want your priest to call the police and get that child offender arrested.
This is about protecting children, and that's got to come first. The Church and its long history of cover-up must not come first anymore. This secrecy, this culture of secrecy is the reason why bishops are fighting legislators who are earnestly trying to protect children. They have to come first, and we need to get bills like this passed across America.
NEVILLE: OK. But, Mr. Donahue, isn't this against Roman Catholic law if a priest tells what they heard in a confession?
DONAHUE: Well, absolutely. You might as well just take the sacrament of reconciliation and throw it out the window. This is an incredible violation of the most elementary notion of separation of church and state.
You know what I resent are a couple of things here, Arthel. I resent the implication that we have to have a bill like this because most priests are predators. "The Washington Post" found out less than 1.5 percent of priests in the last 40 years have ever been accused of such molestation. "The New York Times" found tut it was 1.8 percent over the last 50-something years.
And on top of that, there is zero evidence, zero, that there's somehow a problem going on that these molestation charges are taking place in the confessional. I mean what Mark talked about was that he was molested in the confessional. Let me tell you something, if that's the case, then he should have punched the priest right in the mouth. There's no problem there with the seal of the confessional.
We all know that this is a red herring. What are they going to do to enforce this, too? Are they going to have a cop come in there in a sting operation? Is he going to be wired? He is going to confess to something he didn't do and then go out and report to the authorities the police never reported it?
I mean, look, just this week the court said that the government is not going to be involved in kosher laws. Why do you think that the government is actually going to get involved in the sacrament of reconciliation? They are not going to go there.
And it's also hypocrite ical. What about abortion providers, what about the people who are social workers? What about the people in the public school industry? None of them are covered by this. I want to see everybody be treated equally.
SERRANO: Arthel?
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Mark.
SERRANO: I'm afraid Mr. Donahue has oversimplified the situation by suggesting that I could easily have escaped by predator by punching him in the nose. He's minimized the powerful impact that a predator priest was able to have on me as a child.
NEVILLE: Mark, let me jump in there. I certainly don't mean to be insensitive at all for anything that you suffered, but I want to make sure that we -- this is a very complicated issue, but at the same time separate. We're not talking about priest abusers. We're talking about going into a confessional, into the booth, telling the father, bless me, father, I have sinned, and this is what happened to me.
And the priest finds out that someone, a parent or the coach or whomever, has been abusing that child. Now the lawmakers in Maryland are saying that priest -- they are proposing a bill that says that priest should take that information to the authorities. So how do you feel about that now?
And let me continue with this. And that is, that there is the possibility for individual interpretation. What is abuse to one person, to one priest, may not be abuse to another one.
SERRANO: Right. Well, look, it's really not that complicated, OK? The -- for a child who is experiencing rape, should be able to tell someone, an adult, like a priest. And it doesn't matter who is performing the rape. But they should be able to rely on that priest to save the child and to be able to seek help on behalf of that child.
DONAHUE: They do that right now outside the confessional. You act like as if he only has to tell him in the confessional. Why can't he just go up to the police and knock on his door?
SERRANO: There should be no -- look, the only person who should be worried about this type of bill is a child rapist. And their secret should not be kept by any priest. In effect, we should have no place in society where there is a special place for perpetrators and predators who would devastate the lives of children through rape, whether it's a priest or coach or anyone else in society.
There should be no special place for them to be able to reveal it and have that information protected so that they cannot be prosecuted. And, more importantly, so that the child and the rape that's taking place can't be stopped. Tell me any Catholic in America who wouldn't like to see -- to learn the information if they are not aware that this child is being hurt?
NEVILLE: I'm sure that applies to people who are not just Catholics. Listen, I do have to take a break. So I want to thank you, Mark Serrano. William Donahue...
SERRANO: Thank you, Arthel.
NEVILLE: Thank you so much for being here, as well. And I have a lot of people in the audience who want to get in on this conversation. I'll let you do that later on in the show. And I want to hear from you, as well.
Do you think priests should have to turn in criminals discovered inside the confessional? It's our "Question of the Day." Go ahead and get those phone calls going now. The number is 1-800-310-4CNN. Or, of course, you can e-mail me at talkback@cnn.com. Again, I'll take your answers a little bit later. And then coming up next, CBS has been looking for the real Beverly hillbillies. And one of Georgia's senators thinks the network should be ashamed of itself. Are you a bigot if you make fun of hillbillies? We're going to talk about that in a moment.
Don't go anywhere. The TALK continues after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right. Welcome back, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville.
Georgia Senator Zell Miller calls himself a hillbilly. But he warns nobody else better call him that. Well he's saying it's an insult. That's right.
Miller interrupted a Senate debate yesterday to call national attention to a planned CBS reality show called "The Real Beverly Hillbillies." The show would take a real life down home family from Appalachia and plunk them right in the heart of Beverly Hills. I'm from the South; I can say that like that. Thank you very much.
Here's a bit of that speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: What CBS and CEO Moonves propose to do with this cracker comedy is bigotry, pure and simple. CBS, Viacom, Mr. Moonves, I plead with you to call off your hillbilly hunt. Make your big bucks some other way.
Appeal to the best in America and not the worst. Give bigotry no sanction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Charles Barkley is here. He is a CNN contributor. Stop it. Steve Malzberg is here as well. He's a talk show host for WABC and a columnist for newsmag.com.
STEVE MALZBERG, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi.
NEVILLE: All right, gentlemen. So, Charles, I'll start with you. Does the senator have a point?
CHARLES BARKLEY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The senator got too much time on his hand. I'm pretty sure with all the crap we've got going on in this country right now he shouldn't be worrying about the Beverly hillbillies. I mean, you know, it's funny. When all the stuff that's on television nowadays, he should have been complaining a lot sooner.
This is just another in a long line of crap they got on television. I'm really excited tonight. It's funny you mentioned crap on television. I'm really excited -- I am really excited to see -- they've got the two killers going head-to-head tonight I think on CBS and ABC, I think. Robert Blake and the crazy kid who killed the girl a few years ago.
MALZBERG: Robert Chambers.
BARKLEY: Robert Chambers. So that's crap, both of them being interviewed. But this is nothing new. These television stations, they'll show their mother naked if they can make money. They don't care. I mean that's just the way TV is.
MALZBERG: That's very true, Charles. And I agree with you, he should have better things to do at this point. But let's be consistent.
I'm of the view that, if you don't like what's on TV, turn the channel. I think anything should be allowed on within decency rules. However, you know, Bill Cosby bought up the -- or at least reportedly bought up the -- "Little Rascal" shows and there are certain episodes you can't see. There are certain old-time movies that portray blacks in a less than friendly light, a less than light that' dignified, and you can't see those.
So if it works for one group of society, and Zell Miller represents a group of hillbillies, so to speak, in his district, in his state, this is not the first time he's spoken out against things like this. So if it can't be done for blacks and maybe for Jews, why should it be OK for this group? You have to be consistent. That's all I seek is consistency.
NEVILLE: All right, Steve. Hang on, Charles. Because, Bob (ph), you are from Georgia. You just about blew a gasket when you heard Steve speak just now.
BOB: Well, I am concerned that our society has become so homogeneous in our thought and actions that when someone is different, we immediately want to ridicule, you know, consider them to be so different or unworthy or an oddity. And that frightens me more than this.
(APPLAUSE)
NEVILLE: Thank you. Go ahead, sir Charles.
BARKLEY: Well, I mean, to me, this is not even worth debating. We got so much stuff going on nowadays. He interrupted Congress just to talk about the hillbillies? I mean that's what disappoints me the most with all the stuff we have going on, especially with the public school system.
Number one, I think if him and the people in Georgia had done a better job, they wouldn't be hillbillies, to be honest with you. Because if you leave downtown Atlanta or Buckhead and you go 20 miles, it's the same way in Alabama. If you leave Birmingham or Montgomery, you go 20 miles in every direction, there's nothing but hillbillies. So that's just the way it is. MALZBERG: That's true. But don't you see that there's a little bit of a double standard here? I can see him being offended because he feels that it's his people that are being made fun of in a time and place in our society where you can't make fun of certain groups anymore in television or anywhere else.
BARKLEY: So you think he's a hillbilly? When is the last time you think he's been a hillbilly?
NEVILLE: OK. Listen, guys, let me tell you this while I'm going to break. CBS spokesperson Chris Ender (ph) had this to say. He said, "It's bizarre and unfortunate that he's formed a conclusion about a project that doesn't even exist yet."
OK. Up next: I want to hear from you on the "Question of the Day," which is, should Catholic priests be forced to report crimes they hear during confession, in particular ones involving children? Give me a call right now, 1-800-310-4CNN, or e-mail me at talkback@cnn.com.
I'll take your comments after this. And we'll let Steve and Charles weigh in as well.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right, everybody. Welcome back. I'm Arthel Neville.
It is time for our "Question of the Day." Should priests be forced to report crimes heard in confession, specifically about child abuse? Going to New York now, where Josephine (ph) is standing by. What's your answer, Josephine (ph)?
JOSEPHINE: Well, I believe this, that a confession is a time when a person talks between himself and god, not between politicians. There has always been a reason to separate the religion against the politics.
NEVILLE: OK. Josephine (ph), thank you so much for your call. I have some e-mails coming in now I want to share with you.
Shawn in Ontario, Canada says, "Priests should report crimes that are confessed to them. Any other citizen would be legally obligated to report such crimes. Why should Roman Catholic priests be above the law?" Thanks, Shawn.
Another e-mail coming in now from Michael in Texas. "Maybe we should just eliminate all religious freedoms, and then next we could force spouses to testify against one another. Where does it end?" OK. Thank you very much.
And Jane in Wisconsin is e-mailing us now. She says, "I am Catholic. In fact, my oldest brother is a priest. Reporting child abuse discovered through confession will violate the sanctity of confession." Thanks for the e-mails.
And I want to get Steve to chime in quickly. Go ahead, Steve. Your answer.
MALZBERG: Well, I think again there are privileges. There's doctor-patient privilege. A spouse can't be made to testify against another spouse. I don't see where -- although I despise child abuse, I have a 3-year-old, I don't see where changing this is doing anybody any good.
I think it's going to stop people from confessing to priests. You're not going to catch many people this way, and it's an infringement upon religion this way.
NEVILLE: OK, Charles. I know you have some thoughts on that. I have to take a break. I'll hear your thoughts when we come back, and I will talk to you, as well.
Don't go anywhere. The TALK continues after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: All right. We want to get right to it. Charles, do you think Catholic priests should be forced to report their crimes they hear during confession, in particular we're talking about ones involving children?
BARKLEY: Well, number one, I don't comment on other religions because that's not fair, because I don't know. But anybody who confesses to any crime, the person who they confess to should feel a moral obligation to turn them in.
NEVILLE: OK. Thank you very much. And we do have one comment from Phillip (ph) over there in the audience. What do you say?
PHILLIP: Well, if a doctor recognizes abuse in the child, he's required to report it. What would be the difference? A child may not know he's being abused, you know?
NEVILLE: That's what we were talking about earlier. Just the whole individual interpretation. Listen, we are -- we have come to the end of the show -- Charles.
BARKLEY: Can I say one thing?
NEVILLE: Of course.
BARKLEY: To my girl, Toni Smith, I say, you go, girl. You do what you want to do. We're behind you.
MALZBERG: Oh, you've got to be crazy, Charles.
NEVILLE: Quickly. Quickly.
(CROSSTALK)
BARKLEY: Hey, Steve...
MALZBERG: She's dissing America.
BARKLEY: Hey, but that's what they say America is. We all have freedoms and rights. That's all she's saying.
MALZBERG: She's cuckoo.
NEVILLE: OK. But let me tell you. Toni Smith, by the way, is the college basketball player who turned her back to the American flag during the national anthem. That is who she is. She is Charles Barkley's girl.
BARKLEY: You go, girl.
NEVILLE: All right. I've got to go, everybody.
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