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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Pentagon Announces Significant Increase in U.S. Air Power in Persian Gulf; Turkish Parliament Delays Discussion on Basing U.S. Troops
Aired February 27, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE for Thursday, Feb. 27. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening.
The ring of steel around Iraq tightened dramatically today. The Pentagon announced a significant increase in U.S. air power in the Persian Gulf. The Air Force has ordered B-2 stealth bombers to the region. They're likely to play a decisive role in the opening phase of any conflict. And a fifth aircraft carrier is now within striking distance of Iraq.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGONCORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Deployment orders have been signed for B-2 stealth bombers to begin moving next week from Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri to a forward base in Diego Garcia.
The British base in the Indian Ocean is roughly 3,200 miles from Baghdad, about a six-hour flight for the subsonic B-2s.
Pentagon sources say the arrival of the aircraft carrier Kittyhawk in the Persian Gulf this week completes the planned deployment of five carriers called for in the U.S. war plan.
Sources say, unlike in the 1991 Gulf War, two carriers will be based in the eastern Mediterranean Sea and will send their war planes over a northern route, avoiding Syrian and Jordanian air space by flying and refueling over Turkey.
While three other carriers in the Persian Gulf will attack from the south, flying over Kuwait and Saudi air space.
Meanwhile, Iraqis are girding for war, digging wells, stacking sandbags and buying guns.
Pentagon sources say the Iraqi military is digging trenches and filling them with oil, a tactic Saddam Hussein could use to ring Baghdad with smoke and fire. HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI, FORMER IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: Whenever he decides the time is right, he will try to detonate it so as to entrap the people inside the city, and also, to hinder the advancement of the troops to the city.
MCINTYRE: While the smoke could thwart laser-guided bombs, it would provide no defense against satellite-guided bombs, which are the weapons of choice for the Pentagon.
The U.S. is also watching the movement of Iraq's 1st Adnan Mechanized Republican Guard Division, south from their usual base in Mosul to an area just north of Tikrit, a power base for Saddam Hussein.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And, Lou, one more sign that war may be growing closer. Today, at the Pentagon, the bureau chiefs of major news organizations were warned that their personnel in Baghdad are in more danger now than they were in 1991, because of the much more devastating air campaign that is planned. And they were told they may not get another warning before the bombs fall -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, what can you tell us about troop movements on the part of the Iraqis?
MCINTYRE: Well, those troop movements at this point, the Pentagon is still trying to figure out exactly what is going on and whether or not Iraq is waiting to see, for instance, whether Iraq -- the U.S. strikes a deal with Turkey to put troops up in the north before deciding whether to move those Republican Guard units closer to Baghdad.
But at this point, it appears that Saddam Hussein is pretty convinced that a war is coming soon and he's trying to take the appropriate measures.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon.
Well, the buildup of U.S. forces in the Gulf continues on schedule. Plans to deploy 62,000 U.S. troops to Turkey have run into another obstacle. The Turkish parliament had been expected to discuss the issue today, but the debate was delayed. We had a foreshadowing of that delay when I talked with the Turkish ambassador to the United States Monday on this program.
This is what the ambassador had to say when I asked him about the parliamentary vote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Ambassador, you expect, then, Parliament to give final and complete, then, approval to these negotiations?
TARUS LOGOGLU, TURKISH AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I would not dare to predict what parliament is going to do, but when the government does ultimately take the issue to the parliament, it's going to be with an expectation of a yes vote.
But I think there is going to be a lot of explanation, a lot of convincing to do between now and the actual vote in the parliament. I think it is very important to remember that there is a lot of strong public sentiment against involving Turkey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And again, that vote now on the part of the Turkish parliament expected to be on Saturday.
At the United Nations, the chief U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix, has said that Iraq's efforts to disarm to this point have been very limited. His comments in a report due to be delivered to the Security Council Saturday.
Senior U.N. correspondent Richard Roth has the story -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, draft excerpts of the Blix written report were read to me and we have some of those excerpts. And it's, so far what we've been told, somewhat negative towards Iraq and its disarmament understandings.
Dr. Blix writes in this draft version, not an official document so far, that the results over the last quarter of the year of disarmament by Iraq, quote, "very limited so far. It is hard to understand why a number of the measures which are being taken could not have been initiated earlier. If they had been taken earlier, they might have born fruit by now. Iraq could have made greater efforts to find proscribed items."
And speaking of proscribed items, those Al Samoud 2 missiles, Iraq facing a deadline on Saturday to start destruction of them. They have been test fired beyond the allowed 93-mile range.
Late today Iraq in a letter said it accepts in principle the request for the destruction of the missiles and other items requested by the weapons agencies. However, there is still some concern. In the letter Iraq says it's an unfair request and now says it needs to know how to destroy them and how to proceed. It wants to have technical talks.
The Al Samoud is one of those weapons Iraq could use if there was a military invasion. However, right now, Iraq is saying it will destroy them but it is leaving a lot of questions open, Lou, as to whether it indeed will start on Saturday -- Lou.
DOBBS: Richard, thank you. Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth.
A new poll shows Americans in support of attacking Saddam Hussein if he does not destroy those missiles. It also shows Americans are now better prepared for a terrorist attack here at home.
According to the latest CNN -"USA Today"-Gallup poll, 60 percent of Americans would oppose sending U.S. ground troops to Iraq if Saddam destroys those missiles. That is, that they would -- if Iraq does not destroy the missiles, an overwhelming 71 percent of Americans favor sending those troops to Iraq.
Another poll found most Americans have taken steps to prepare for a possible terrorist attack at home. Seventy-eight percent of American families have a first aid kit now. Seventy-two percent have a radio with fresh batteries. Sixty percent have a stockpile of food and water.
President Bush says security at home depends on the spread of democracy around the world and in particular the Middle East. Last night, he outlined his vision of the Middle East without Saddam Hussein. President Bush said Iraq could act as a beacon for democracy in the region.
Joining me now to talk about that, and obviously a number of other issues, is former defense secretary and MONEYLINE regular contributor, William Cohen.
Bill, good to have you here.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Great to be here.
DOBBS: The president outlining a vision in broad terms for democratic values and, if you will, free markets in the Middle East. Your thoughts?
COHEN: Well, I think as a by-product of the military disarmament of Iraq, that would be certainly something desirable. To make it as part of a strategic goal, I think, raises the ante quite substantially for the United States. So we have seen what we used to call during the President Clinton years something called mission creep. It now appears to be mission leap.
We've gone from disarming Saddam Hussein either peacefully or by force to establishing a beacon for other countries to follow in terms of developing a democracy. I think it's a noble goal, but I think what we're seeing now is an enlargement of the mission, originally identified as disarming this man and taking those weapons and destroying them.
DOBBS: Obviously, the president has broadened his vision. It's a bold vision. Are you suggesting that you think it's inappropriate and not in keeping...
COHEN: No. What I'm suggesting is that may be a byproduct. To set it out as the rationale going for going into the Middle East in order to establish a series of democracies, I think, certainly, is going to alarm some of the other countries there.
Namely, you have a number of countries in the Gulf that are not democracies but are not producing weapons of mass destruction, so I think that if it's a byproduct, that yes, Saddam is gone, that the Iraqi people have the opportunity to create a democratic system. So much the better.
For us to try to micro- or macromanage that, I think is going to be a heroic undertaking.
DOBBS: I think "macro" would work here. The idea that we've exported U.S. dollars to the Middle East to, particularly, oil- producing countries for 40,50 years without exporting democratic values, don't you think it's an idea whose time has come?
COHEN: I think it is coming. It's coming through an evolution, rather than a revolution.
If you look at countries like Qatar, Bahrain, other countries in the region now are starting to liberalize the countries. And so I think you're going to see democracy coming. This may help to speed it, but I think...
DOBBS: Of course, the president means for it to spread.
COHEN: Well, this is something quite different from no nation building into, now, nation building or democracy building.
DOBBS: Well, just as President Clinton before him, this president is showing a certain amount of adaptiveness.
COHEN: Well, it's certainly something that he's going to galvanize either support or opposition on the hill.
But I think in terms of -- we support democracy just that it's going to be a very long haul. I think the president trying to prepare us for, ultimately, the cost in terms of money but also bloodshed and the duration.
DOBBS: Is there enough emphasis being put on the cost of not taking action? This president, obviously, convinced, as are the majority of Americans at this point, that the costs of not -- of not going to war effectively and conclusively against the al Qaeda terrorists and Saddam Hussein with his weapons of mass destruction is even higher.
COHEN: It's much higher, to the extent that we have more 9/11s with weapons of mass destruction being used on American soil, then you can see the enormity of the cost involved.
So it's -- I think it's fair to raise the question how much will it cost us. But it's also fair to raise the question what do we do by not taking any action?
DOBBS: In replying to that question when I was with a number of other journalists at the White House earlier this week, the president said that he will spend precisely what it takes to win the war. Can you imagine another answer?
COHEN: Well, we'll do whatever has to be done. That's clearly the right answer, but I think the members of the Congress are entitled to ask the questions.
DOBBS: Of course.
COHEN: In conjunction with...
DOBBS: Please don't infer that because I'm quoting the president that I would not, as well, quote gleefully the...
COHEN: Absolutely.
DOBBS: ... loyal opposition on Capitol Hill.
COHEN: Not only the loyal opposition. You have members of the Republican Party who will say, all right, Mr. President, exactly how much will this cost? What are we in for? And how do we pay for it?
DOBBS: And your answer? And your answer?
COHEN: The question is, I believe that we have to pay whatever it takes, provided we also cut spending where we can cut, so that we don't simply add to the deficit.
DOBBS: You're a deficit hawk.
COHEN: I've always been a conservative Republican in terms of balancing budgets and looking for fiscal responsibility.
DOBBS: Bill Cohen, not only that, you're a good guy and we appreciate your time. Thanks.
COHEN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, teachers are targeting children of some members of the army national guard troops with an anti-war message in classrooms in the state of Maine.
That guard's chief of staff and the state and the Maine teachers' union leader will be here to talk about how this could happen and what should be done about it.
An anti-war protest on the college basketball court has sparked national protests. We'll have a live special report for you.
And on Wall Street today, something to cheer up about, the Dow up 78 points. Christine Romans will have the market for us.
Also tonight, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe faces his critics today on Capitol Hill, there talking about the Columbia shuttle disaster, of course, and budgets. Tim O'Brien will have the story.
TIM O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, on Capitol Hill, lawmakers expressed concerns about the future of the space program. Is it worth the money?
DOBBS: Thanks, Tim. Sean O'Keefe will join us for an exclusive interview tonight.
All of that, a great deal more, still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: In news around the world The United Nations' nuclear monitoring agency today said it is firmly opposed to North Korea operating its nuclear facilities without U.N. inspectors. The United States said yesterday North Korea has reactivated a nuclear reactor that could produce weapons-grade plutonium.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon today presented his new government to parliament. Sharon rejected two key Palestinian demands today. Sharon said the Palestinians would not be allowed to establish a capital in east Jerusalem and exiles would not be allowed to return to their homes.
An Air France Concord today landed safely in New York after losing two pieces of its rudder during a flight from Paris. There was no need for an emergency landing and there were no injuries. The same aircraft made an unscheduled landing in Nova Scotia just last week because of engine trouble.
A dramatic session on Capitol Hill today. The top official of NASA testifying, some members of Congress highly critical in the questioning about safety and the Space Shuttle Columbia.
Administrator Sean O'Keefe said concerns on the part of some NASA engineers were handled appropriately as part of an internal debate about the safety of the Shuttle Columbia. That debate came in the form of alarming e-mails, some of which predicted a situation close to the shuttle's actual disaster.
Today, members of Congress asked O'Keefe why he has only just learned about some of those e-mails.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: First of all, why was it that even if there is a hint of a footnote of a memo on a scrap of an envelope that was within this investigation's scope, that it only made its way to you yesterday at the same time it made its way to everyone else on the AP wire?
And have you fired anyone for not bringing them your attention sooner?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll be talking with NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe later in the broadcast.
Meanwhile today, NASA announced that the Russian Soyuz spacecraft will bring home the current crew of two American astronauts and one Russian cosmonaut. It will drop off a two-person crew in April and bring the existing crew back to Earth.
The International Space Station already cost more than $40 billion, more than originally planned. And that's just one of the challenges facing NASA. This is an agency that has faced declining budgets for a decade and more and now faces a series of troubling questions about its future.
Tim O'Brien reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN (voice-over): Hundreds of miles in space aboard the International Space Station, it may be time to head home. That from NASA officials, who say it may be too dangerous to continue to keep the space station manned, now that the shuttle program is grounded.
Back on Earth at a congressional hearing, lawmakers had larger doubts, whether the cost of the space program generally and the shuttle, in particular, may be too great to justify the benefits.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: You've got three shuttles left and...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a marvelous heavy lift capacity.
ROHRABACHER: And it's a marvelous way of eating up tax dollars, as well.
O'BRIEN: Since its peak in 1968, the percentage of government spending devoted to the space program has dropped from nearly 4 percent to less than 1 percent today.
Even so, lawmakers wondered out loud.
REP. JO BONNER (R), ALABAMA: What is the ongoing mission? And how do these space explorations continue to benefit those of us here on earth at this particular time?
O'BRIEN: NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe said space flight research has led directly to more than 1,500 scientific articles, that the renowned heart surgeon, Dr. Michael DeBakey, attributed significant advances to medicine exclusively to what has been learned in space.
SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: He has developed a new heart pump, for example, that he attributes directly to what research was attained as a result of the human space flight experiences we've had just in the last five years.
REP. GIL GUTKNECHT (R), MINNESOTA: Two things we have learned in the last month. Painful lessons.
First of all, putting human beings in space is extremely expensive. And the second is, traveling at 16 times the speed of sound is extremely dangerous.
O'BRIEN: O'Keefe acknowledged that much is accomplished using robotics, but on some missions, humans are indispensable and whatever the cause of the Columbia disaster, the administration is committed to continuing with both.
There will always be risks. (END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: And can NASA ever be too careful? Yes, said O'Keefe. Had we exercised extreme caution in every case, the Wright Brothers would never have done what they did 100 years ago and we wouldn't be in air travel today -- Lou.
DOBBS: Tim, thank you very much. Tim O'Brien from Washington.
Coming up next, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe will be with us with the latest on the investigation into the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster and his vision for the future of space flight.
And a record U.S. trade deficit, political tensions with Europe and the basis for a conversation about trade with this country's top trade ambassador. U.S. Trade representative Ambassador Robert Zoellick will be with us.
And later, Maine National Guard troops have been called to serve. Some say their children are being harassed by some of their teachers. We will have that story and talk with a representative of the teachers' union and the army national guard of Maine.
A great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The U.S. trade deficit is at a record high. U.S. companies are exporting jobs overseas, and just yesterday, the man in charge of U.S. trade warned Congress it must act quickly to avoid $4 billion of European Union retaliation.
We're joined now by U.S. trade representative Ambassador Robert Zoellick from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
ROBERT ZOELLICK, U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: Glad to be here.
DOBBS: Is it your sense that Congress is going to act quickly to avoid the European retaliatory tariffs?
ZOELLICK: Well, Chairman Thomas, who's the head of the Ways and Means Committee, that has responsibility in the House of Representatives, has put forward a bill. It's a difficult issue, but I got a sense that Congress recognizes the importance of it.
But they also recognize it's one piece of a bigger economic relationship we have with Europe.
So they recognize that fundamentally the United States and Europe are joined at the hip. We have about $770 billion dollars of trade. Europeans have about $800 billion of investment in the United States.
So while it's a big issue, I don't think you should blow it out of proportion. DOBBS: Well, did you think I was?
ZOELLICK: No, it's just a question of when -- when you talked about the numbers in terms of the relationship with the -- with Europe, it's an important issue. We're trying to resolve it, but I'm going to be meeting my colleague from Europe next week. We've got a lot of issues that we're trying to deal with. This is one of many.
DOBBS: What would you say, Ambassador, is the most important with a country that has a $430 billion trade deficit?
ZOELLICK: Well, you know, the reason we have that deficit is because we've been growing more than others and so I think the most important thing that we do is try to get more global growth abroad and, frankly, continue the effort to try to open markets for U.S. products.
And that's what we've been doing over the past couple of years, reversing some of the slow down in the past. We just completed two new trade agreements with Singapore and Chile. We're trying to move ahead working with the global trade negotiations, working with the Europeans and others.
So it's part of a larger picture, which the bottom line is, frankly, trying to get growth and jobs for Americans.
DOBBS: Jobs and growth for Americans but meanwhile, manufacturing jobs are being exported abroad. Is there anything that can be done about that or is this a trend, a historical trend that is going to continue for years to come?
ZOELLICK: Well, we actually look at manufacturing as a share of the economy over the past 20 years. It's interesting. A lot of people don't know this. It's actually gone up a little bit.
Now you're right. Jobs gone down, but that's because productivity has gone up. So where have those jobs gone? Well, you've got more people in the service industry. You have cable television and others.
And this is -- this is part of a changing dynamic economy. At the turn of the last century, you would have 50 percent of the public in agriculture. Then they moved to manufacturing and now you have a service industry that's part services, part manufacturing.
So, again, the bottom line is trying to get incomes higher for people, jobs for people, opportunities for people. And trade is part of that because, frankly, it keeps us competitive, but it also gives us opportunity to grow with growth abroad.
DOBBS: And your judgment, again, is most important issue in trade today?
ZOELLICK: Well, the most important issue I frankly think is keeping the United States in leadership and global trade, because the United States is about 25 percent of the world economy. People do look to us, as we all know. It's a time of security uncertainty.
I just came back from China. I was in Latin America not long ago. And what they look to is U.S. leadership in terms of various negotiations, the global negotiations, the hemispheric negotiations and individual ones.
And that's one of the things we've been able to do over the past couple of years. You've got new authority from Congress. The president fought very hard to do that. We started to -- we reversed the failure in Seattle to launch global negotiations. We've moved forward in new bilateral negotiations.
So I think at the heart of this, as many other areas, the United States has to step up and lead.
DOBBS: Ambassador Zoellick, thanks for being with us.
ZOELLICK: Glad to be here.
DOBBS: Coming up next, Sean O'Keefe, NASA administrator, will be talking about the future of space exploration and the status of the investigation into the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster.
And outrage in the classrooms: children of some reservists and national guard members harassed in Maine schools by their own teachers. We'll have a MONEYLINE special report from Augusta, Maine, tonight. We'll also be joined by Colonel Rob Carmichael, the chief of staff of the Maine Army National Guard, and Rob Walker, who is the president of the Maine Education Association.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: As MONEYLINE continues, here again, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: These are the top stories tonight.
The Pentagon today ordered B-2 stealth bombers to the Persian Gulf. They're expected to play a key role in the opening phase of any war with Iraq, should the president make that decision.
A fifth aircraft carrier has also moved within striking distance of Iraq.
U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said that Iraq's efforts to this point to disarm have been limited. His comments in a draft report to be delivered to the Security Council Saturday.
NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe today defended the way his agency has handled events that led up to the Columbia disaster, following the release of e-mails by NASA expressing concern that the shuttle could be destroyed on reentry.
Sean O'Keefe will be joining us on the broadcast shortly. Children of some military personnel in Maine have come home depressed and crying because their teachers have said a possible war in Iraq would be unethical and those who would fight it would also be unethical.
The state education commissioner has told school administrators and teachers to be more sensitive to the children in their classrooms, in particular of the military.
Kitty Pilgrim is in Augusta, Maine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A battle over Iraq is being fought in the classrooms in Maine. The commissioner of education had to send a letter of rebuke to teachers for anti-war remarks made to students. Some of those students have parents in the military.
In his 1 1/2-page letter sent Tuesday, the commissioner wrote, "Recently, it has brought to our attention that some school personnel around the state may have been less than sensitive to the children of military families regarding our continued strained relations with Iraq." He added, "The families of military personnel need our sensitivity."
Families of National Guard members complained to National Guard assistance centers in five places across the state. One principal in Augusta explained how a child might feel when confronted by a teacher who expresses anti-war sentiments in class.
PETER WASHBURN, FARRINGTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: If someone said, this is absolutely wrong and we shouldn't be doing this and so on and so forth, and yet daddy's suited up and gone for an undetermined amount of time to a place where you don't know, then, obviously, you have got all these unanswered questions and you're going to feel bad.
PILGRIM: There are 2,200 National Guard members in Maine; 350 have already been called up for service in the Gulf; 200 more have been put on alert.
The 200,000 school-aged kids in Maine will have a new lesson in sensitivity. National Guard officials worry about their extended families.
MAJOR PETER ROGERS, MAINE NATIONAL GUARD: Their everyday routine is disrupted. They are not getting the support from two people that they may have had before. Depression can set in. A lot of them are keeping it inside, because they don't want to bring it up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Talking to people in Maine today, one thing is very clear. Neither National Guard members nor educators want this particular battle fought in the classroom -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim reporting from Augusta, Maine.
Well, that brings us to the subject of tonight's MONEYLINE poll question: Should elementary school teachers express their political views in the classroom? Cast your vote at CNN.com/MONEYLINE. We'll have the preliminary results for you later in the broadcast this evening.
Several hundred members of the Army National Guard in Maine have now been called up to active duty; 350 troops have been deployed to the Persian Gulf region. Another 200 soldiers are on alert for possible deployment.
Joining me now to discuss this issue is Colonel Rob Carmichael. He's the chief of staff of Maine's Army National Guard; and Rob Walker, who is the president of Maine's Education Association.
Gentlemen, thank you both for joining us.
Let me begin, if I may, in asking, first of all, Colonel, what has been the reaction of the National Guard talking with the school administrators and the state government or the local governments?
COL. ROB CARMICHAEL, MAINE ARMY NATIONAL GUARD: Well, our reaction, when we surfaced the issue and got it in the hands of the commissioner of education, the reaction was very positive from the department's standpoint.
They issued an advisory. And we believe that that advisory is going to really put these to rest. We hope it will. And we have received no complaints since that advisory went out. And we've had a good relationship, good working relationship with the department on this issue.
DOBBS: If I may turn to you, Rob Walker, the president of the Maine teachers association, some children as young as 7 involved here going home distraught over the comments in the classroom. What is your association's position and what are you doing?
ROB WALKER, MAINE EDUCATION ASSOCIATION: Well, we've had no reported and substantiated cases yet. And if that surfaces, then we're encouraging proper discipline. Administrators need to deal with that on a case-by-case basis. And as discipline is merited and warranted, it should be meted out.
DOBBS: What, in your judgment, would be the appropriate discipline for bringing this kind of turmoil to a young person whose family is already in great difficulty, because their father or their mother is about to be deployed to the Gulf?
WALKER: That's not a question I can answer. I think it would be -- without going into all the circumstances and knowing all the facts, there's no way to answer that question.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask you -- let me put it this way. Do you think that politics should be discussed on a level of this nature in elementary school rooms? WALKER: The academic freedoms that teachers have really varies with the age group. And what might be appropriate for a senior government class to discuss the pros and cons of issues, where they are prepared and able to deal with dissenting opinions is one thing. And the lower the grade level, the more care has to be given to those minds. And Maine educators are, for the most part, very aware of that.
DOBBS: Colonel, let me ask you this. You have said that you are satisfied to this point by the reaction of the state educational system. What is the National Guard doing? Are you monitoring? Are you being more careful and vigilant in terms of looking for reports of these kinds of problems and issues amongst your members?
CARMICHAEL: This is part of our family assistance program. When we deploy soldiers, we have established family assistant centers throughout the state.
And the purpose of those centers is to deal with issues that will affect families and put a burden on the soldiers while they are out serving our country. And so those centers will continue. We'll continue dealing with the families and we'll deal with any issues that come up. And there are a wide range of issues that these families are dealing with. And this is one part of it.
But we feel at this point in time that the issue has been surfaced. We'll monitor that. But we're really hopeful and we believe strongly that the department and the educators -- and we have got wonderful educators throughout this state -- that they're going to do what's right and support the National Guard and their families.
DOBBS: Rob Walker, it just occurred to me because -- knowing that -- the sensitivity of the teachers association, and, certainly, most teachers are extraordinarily sensitive -- does it make sense for your association to work more closely with Colonel Carmichael, the National Guard in the state of Maine, to deal with this issue?
WALKER: I think this whole event presents an opportunity for a teachable moment. And I think whatever we can do to help out the children of the Guard parents is an important task for everybody.
DOBBS: OK, Rob Walker of the Maine Education Association, Colonel Rob Carmichael, gentlemen, we thank you for being with us. And we wish you the very best of luck.
CARMICHAEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: And, of course, we want to hear what you think about this question. Our poll question this evening: Should elementary school teachers be expressing their political views in the classroom? Cast your vote at CNN.com/MONEYLINE. The preliminary results will be coming up later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: A female college basketball player who has turned her back on the U.S. flag could play her final game tonight. Win or lose, her presence will not go unnoticed by the fans. We'll have a live report for you.
Also coming up next: The FDA now says some bad blood is actually good. We'll have that follow-up next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An update now on a story we brought to you earlier this month: The Food and Drug Administration today said mysterious white particles found in donated blood appear to be clumps of platelets, a normal component of blood. The FDA told hospitals to use the blood now after they filter out those clumps. The unknown particles had led to a quarantine in areas stretching from Illinois to Tennessee to Georgia.
In other news across America tonight: Fred Rogers, a pioneer of children's television, has died at the age of 74. He was the host of "Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood," which ran for more than 30 years on public television. Rogers died in his home in Pittsburgh after battling stomach cancer.
A winter storm moved across the mid-Atlantic states today, knocking out power lines and turning highways into ice rinks. Schools were forced to close in North Carolina and Virginia. Eight inches of snow are now expected to fall in Virginia by late tonight.
Bad weather caused tense moments for Florida's governor, Jeb Bush, and members of his staff today. His twin-engine aircraft was hit by lightning while flying between Tallahassee and Orlando. The plane landed safely in Orlando. It did have a small hole in its wing as a result of the lightning strike, none of the passengers injured.
On Wall Street today, stocks rose after the terror threat level was downgraded to yellow. A strong durable goods also helped stock prices. The Dow, the Nasdaq, S&P 500 all up 1 percent.
Christine Romans has now the market for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou.
The Dow erased yesterday's loss and has a fighting chance to end February higher if it can rally tomorrow. Two stocks rose for every stock that fell, on anemic volume, at best, though -- stocks holding onto those gains despite an early spike in oil prices. Lou, Nynex crude expected to overtake the $41.50 Gulf War high any day now, if this continues.
Meanwhile, Lucent shares soared 6 percent. That's 10 cents. It will settle an accounting probe with the government without admitting any wrongdoing. And Lucent avoids a fine or earnings restatement. And Goldman Sachs' shares soared as the company says goodbye to six analysts and drops coverage for now of about 50 companies, including AOL Time Warner, Disney, and International Paper. Goldman calls the move a function of a tough business -- Lou.
DOBBS: And a pay cut at Goldman Sachs, that CEO having a little trouble.
(CROSSTALK)
ROMANS: Absolutely, for the third year in a row now. It's interesting, though, that the chief there at Goldman Sachs who runs the commodities and fixed-income department, though, made $4 million more last year than the CEO, Hank Paulson. That's where the money was, in fixed income, last year.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much.
Well, as we reported earlier, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe today vigorously defended his agency's handling of warnings about Columbia.
Sean O'Keefe joins us now from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Mr. Administrator, good to have you with us.
SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Thank you, Lou. Good to be with you.
DOBBS: A lot of sharp questioning today on Capitol Hill, obviously, a number of the congressmen not satisfied with the level of response to the e-mail warnings.
Give us your best judgment tonight about how you believe the managers handled those very difficult assessments of risk to the shuttle and its crew.
O'KEEFE: Well, it appears as though there was a very spirited exchange that went on, on this issue, as well as so many other factors.
And this is a very typical circumstance on any orbit, on any operational mission in which folks are really looking at every permutation and they're thinking through every scenario. And, in the end, the evidence would suggest, by all this transaction back and forth, that all the right responsible people made judgments about what they thought were the probabilities and, based on that substantial evidence, made a determination that, in their view, in their judgment, safe-flight operations were still assured.
And we'll find out. The Columbia Accident Investigation Board is continuing their activity. They've picked up the pace. And to the extent they come to the conclusion that this or any other factor or any other theory contributed to this terrible tragedy, that's what the facts will say. And that's we want to know, is the truth of how this occurred.
But as it stands now, I think there was a lot of just judgment that went on. And, in that regard, this is the kind of spirited exchange you want to see, you really encourage. And I'm gratified at least to see that that kind of dialogue went on.
DOBBS: Boeing and, of course, Lockheed Martin, the partners in U.S. space, criticized because of the actual qualifications, the experience level of some of the engineers in Houston who were making risk analysis, various numbers of criticisms now bubbling up through the process and outside, if you will, the investigation process.
Have you seen, as the administrator, any evidence, any information that suggests to you that you need to take specific steps, irrespective of the conclusion of this investigation when it does come?
O'KEEFE: No, sir, not at this point.
I just -- I really think we need to be very, very patient here and making sure that the Columbia Accident Investigation Board -- it's this independent process that has been set in motion -- gathers all the facts so that we can look at this in a context, rather than just any individual theory that might support one view or the other. So I think it's very important and I firmly believe that we need to avoid being judgmental at this stage in the game and let the facts speak, let the truth come out on what occurred here.
We owe that to the families, to be able explain this in a way that gives us an understanding of exactly what occurred and in our best efforts to make sure that, within the limits of human frailty, this never happens again. So the only way we are going to determine that is to make sure all the facts speak before we make judgments and conclusions about what we think folks should have or might have done on this scenario.
DOBBS: Mr. Administrator, you've been very critical at various junctures of the press, referring to some as, I believe, filmologists who had burgeoned out of nowhere. Do you believe the press is doing a reasonably good job on this story?
O'KEEFE: Oh, yes, sir. There's no question. This is part of the public dialogue. It's part of the public coverage of a very important public issue.
And we need to be accountable. We will be accountable to the American people. And I think the media is doing a fantastic job of making sure that all the evidence is discussed and the issues are involved. The one issue I have raised is, let's not go off on one theory vs. another at this juncture. I think the Columbia Accident Investigation Board, in their independent judgment, are going to really work through this in a disciplined way to help us understand what happened.
And let's not pursue one theory vs. another at the expense of what could be the ultimate determination of what caused this terrible accident.
DOBBS: Watching you on Capitol Hill today, listening to some of the congressmen, there was a subtext, at least I perceived, of not great enthusiasm about the prospects for space flight.
What is your commitment right now to the future of NASA to space flight to its budget, which has been decimated for more than a decade? O'KEEFE: Well, the administration has presented -- the president presented a budget on February the 3rd, two days after this event, that had been prepared for months beforehand that is an increase over where we were before, a trending increase, as a matter of fact, that continues through the next five years.
And that's the first indication that was done way before February 1 and released just on February 3 that is a strong endorsement of space flight and the continued exploration and discovery agenda at NASA. And I have every confidence and every assurance that we're going to continue in that direction. And I believe, in speaking for the administration, we are solidly behind that continued goal.
DOBBS: Mr. Administrator, this investigation, tough on you, tough on everyone at NASA. But do you have a sense of how long it's going to take?
O'KEEFE: It's hard to tell. And, again, I would not want to prejudge Admiral Gehman and the Columbia Accident Investigation Board's efforts. They are really diligent about this. They're working this 24/7.
And the pace and speed of the activity certainly seems to be picking up, from everything I have gotten a sense from talking to Admiral Gehman and the board members. So, at this point, we're hopeful of an expeditious understanding. But, at the same time, again, this is not a circumstance where a game clock is involved. I want to make sure that we provide every piece of evidence and all the facts that are out there for them to arrive at a very learned and thoughtful judgment about what they believe led to this accident and let those facts speak for how we proceed from this point forward.
And that doesn't have a time limit on it. I think that's something that we really need to be very diligent about and patient in looking forward to the conclusion.
DOBBS: Patient, obviously, and everyone eager for the answers, but also a great dependency. And that is the shuttle program itself, the International Space Station, which would be threatened without the shuttle. Your thoughts.
O'KEEFE: Yes, sir.
There's no question but that the issues that hang in the balance here are continued activity on International Space Station and building that remarkable laboratory condition in space that duplicate anything that we have got here on Earth, in terms of the kind of scientific experiment and research objectives that could be achieved there. We're still about six flights away from completing the core configuration of that remarkable laboratory.
It has been crewed now for over 2 1/2 years. So individuals have been living aboard for that time. We are on our sixth expedition crew that are aboard now. Ken Bowersox and Don Pettit and Nikolai Budari are very, very anxious to see us return to flight, for the purpose of not only continuing the science aboard, but also supporting the next expedition crew that could come up there after.
And we're making plans to maintain that capability for as long as it takes for us to return to flight safely in the time ahead. So we're trying to be as responsible as we can to keep the crew aboard and keep the scientific objectives pursued.
DOBBS: Mr. Administrator, you didn't say it exactly, but I will. That crew is also ready to come home.
O'KEEFE: Well, they were due to come home in March. And right now, talking to Ken Bowersox, he's been a real trooper. There's no doubt about it. He's very optimistic, very upbeat, and he's working hard.
DOBBS: Sean O'Keefe, administrator of NASA, thanks for being with us.
O'KEEFE: Thank you, Lou, a pleasure to be with you.
DOBBS: One more space-related note tonight: one more memorial for the crew of the space shuttle Columbia.
The Houston Astros baseball team is the latest to honor Columbia's crew. Team members will wear Columbia's mission patch on their uniforms for the entire season. The Astros received permission from both NASA and the families of the astronauts to honor them. Astros owner Drayton McLane said he is deeply grateful to be afforded the opportunity to pay tribute to these incredible people.
Coming up next: A college basketball player's silent protest against the United States is causing an incredible response. Bill Tucker is in Purchase, New York, with the story for us -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, sports, politics and the media come together in Purchase, New York, for a volatile mix. I'll have the story when we come back.
DOBBS: Thank you, Bill -- that and a great deal more still ahead.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Athletes in this country have a history of protest; one of the most famous, of course, Muhammad Ali's refusal to serve in the Vietnam War. In 1996, Denver Nuggets basketball guard Mahmoud Abdul- Rauf was suspended for failing to stand during the national anthem.
Now a female college basketball player is causing outrage among some for turning her back on the flag during the national anthem.
Bill Tucker has the story for us tonight from Manhattanville College in Purchase, New York -- Bill.
TUCKER: Bill, who knew Division III women's basketball could attract so much attention? And, frankly, it wouldn't if it weren't for a young senior named Toni Smith, who is playing for Manhattanville College here in a conference semifinal game.
The reason that's she attracted so much action, as you just mentioned, she's turning her back on the national anthem as it is played. And it has attracted a great deal of controversy. There are a lot of students on campus, Lou, who frankly support her, saying it's her right of free speech to do just that.
There's another group of students who we spoke with earlier today who said, whenever Toni Smith steps up to the free throw line, they're going to turn their backs on her as she takes her free throw shots. The college officially doesn't say whether it agrees or disagrees with Toni Smith, does say she has a perfect right to do what she's doing as an item of freedom of speech.
Obviously, there's some Vietnam veterans groups who take great exception to Ms. Smith's actions. But for now, those actions do prevail, Lou. And it is expected tonight, in just about five minutes time, when the national anthem is played and they stand, Toni Smith will be turning her back against the flag, although, Lou, the most interesting part here is, she calls herself patriotic -- back to you.
DOBBS: All right, well, freedom of speech, whether one agrees with it or not, it still applies in this country, thank God.
Bill Tucker, thank you very much from Purchase, New York.
Still ahead: the results of tonight's MONEYLINE poll, your thoughts, one e-mail connecting environment and Saddam Hussein.
We'll share that with you next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, the preliminary results of our MONEYLINE poll tonight. The question: Should elementary school teachers express their political views in the classroom? Eleven percent of you said yes. An overwhelming 89 percent said no. Wolf Blitzer's polls are not scientific. We assure we will not qualify the scientific results of our polls.
Now let's take a look at your thoughts.
Roland Johnson in Palm Harbor, Florida, wrote in to say: "What I cannot understand is why all of the environmentalists of the world are not demanding Saddam's head. In the Gulf War, he flooded the Persian Gulf with more than 100,000 million gallons of oil, torched the Kuwaiti oil fields, which took almost a year to extinguish and released of tons of residue for all of us to breathe. If there is one person alive today who's guilty of environmental crimes against humanity, it is Saddam Hussein."
Terry Bear of Paris wrote in to say: "For those of us living in wimps-occupied territories like France, where one can only listen to the French-government-sponsored media, your show is both thought- provoking and a daily relief to local propaganda."
We thank you for the thought.
And we always love hearing from you: MONEYLINE@CNN.com.
That's MONEYLINE for this Thursday evening. For all of us here, good night from New York City.
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