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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Bush Says War Will Set Stage For Peace in Middle East; Saddam Tells Dan Rather He Will Die Rather Than Go Into Exile
Aired February 27, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, pre-war push on prime time television. President Bush says a war with Iraq will set the stage for peace in the Middle East, while Iraq's president, Saddam Hussein tells Dan Rather he will die rather than go into exile.
And should teachers be practicing personal politics in the classroom? some anti-war teachers in Maine are reportedly harassing the young children of military volunteers.
Also, Robert Blake tells Barbara Walters he didn't kill his wife. But a former detective testifies Blake told him he might have her whacked. Get the latest on that Hollywood murder case.
The TALK starts right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEVILLE: Hello, everybody. Want to welcome you to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. We're awaiting a news conference this hour with Secretary of State Colin Powell and members of the European Union. Of course, we'll bring that to you live when it happens.
In the meantime, it was President Bush versus Iraq's Saddam Hussein last night. Now, not to debate the Iraqi president wants or the rebuttal the White House asked for, but maybe as close as it gets. President Bush's speech to the American Enterprise Institute last night was carried by the networks.
Then on CBS, Dan Rather's interview with Saddam Hussein gave Americans the first encounter with Iraq's president since the early '90s. Now, Mr. Bush says the safety of the American people depends on eliminating the threat posed by Saddam. And he suggested that deposing Iraq's leader would open the paths to peace in the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: The danger posed by Saddam Hussein and his weapons cannot be ignored or wished away. The danger must be confronted. We hope that the Iraqi regime will meet the demands of the United Nations and disarm fully and peacefully. If it does not, we are prepared to disarm Iraq by force. Either way, this danger will be removed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Meanwhile, over at CBS, Saddam Hussein told Dan Rather he'd rather fight than quit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): We will die here in Iraq. We will die in this country, and we will maintain our honor. The honor that is required of our people. I believe that whoever offers Saddam asylum in his own country is, in fact, a person without morals, because he will be directing an insult to the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: All right. Let's meet our guests, Cliff May is president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, and Bruce Shapiro is a contributing editor at "The Nation."
I want to welcome both of you.
Cliff, I'll start with you today. Bush speaks of a liberated Iraq. Saddam says he'll die in Iraq, if necessary. It does appear that in the minds of the two presidents that war is a foregone conclusion?
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: It may, indeed, Arthel, you're right. And the reason is that Saddam Hussein has shown no willingness to give up his weapons of mass destruction. If we would do that, then there probably would not be a war. Although the people of Iraq would continue to suffer as they have for 30 years under one of the bloodiest and most brutal dictatorships of the previous century and certainly of this century. So, that wouldn't be good for the people of Iraq.
I think what we're seeing is that Saddam Hussein just cannot give up his anthrax, his botulism, his smallpox, his nuclear weapons program. And President Bush, quite rightly says, then we'll have to do it by force. In doing so we'll liberate the people of Iraq, who I think will cheer in the streets for American soldiers and President Bush.
NEVILLE: Bruce, how do you see it from your perspective?
BRUCE SHAPIRO, "THE NATION": I think the President Bush and Saddam Hussein can be counted on to do the wrong thing in this situation. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that Saddam Hussein is an awful dictator. But there's also no doubt that President Bush is prosecuting a war, pushing forward a war that many Americans, most people in most European countries, large numbers of people in Turkey and the Middle East, don't want and that, in fact, is going to make the world and the Middle East a more dangerous place.
And for the president to be talking about disarmament as the principle goal of what he's been doing so far, I think, is disingenuous with us. I think the president, this administration has wanted to get Saddam Hussein out. And that became clear last night, when he talked about what is really a geo-political theory, that somehow, if we get rid of Saddam somehow all the rest of the problems in the Middle East are going to go away. This is really what has been driving the policy, a chance to prove this theory on the backs, on the blood of American soldiers.
NEVILLE: You gentlemen know that last night, Dan Rather interviewed Saddam Hussein, and first time Saddam is speaking to a U.S. journalist in 12 years. I ask you do you see it more -- that interview was edited by Saddam's people, so.
Do you see this more as a coup for Dan Rather, or more of a CBS being duped by the Iraqi president?
MAY: Well, it wasn't the most proud moment for CBS News or for Dan Rather. If you look at it carefully, or not even very carefully. Just look at it, read the transcript and listen. I actually watched "Law & Order," but I read it I carefully. It's a softball interview.
SHAPIRO: Wait, I am going to interrupt -- nonsense. This is nonsense. For CBS News to interview...
MAY: Bruce you will let me finish. Bruce, you will let me finish. Bruce. Bruce.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Hang on. Bruce, one second, please.
MAY: Bruce you will let me finish and I'll let you finish. For example, when Saddam Hussein just to give you an example, the softball, corrects his translator and says I would refer to him as Mr. Bush, speaking about the first President Bush, because I want to be respectful, that was the time for Dan Rather to say, but Mr. President, you tried to kill this man. You tried to murder him. Is that a sign of respect?
By the way, Bruce is entirely incorrect. We fought Saddam Hussein in 1990-1991. We stopped fighting him because he signed a cease-fire. The condition of that was that he'd give up weapons of mass destruction. He hasn't done so despite that agreement, despite 17 U.N. resolutions. It is incoherent for Bruce to say of course he's a terrible dictator, but the crowds in Europe don't want to get rid of him so we shouldn't.
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
SHAPIRO: The question is not whether Saddam is a terrible dictator, but whether this war is going to make Iraq the Middle East and the world a safer place or a more dangerous place?
MAY: It will be a better place without people like Saddam Hussein, Bruce.
SHAPIRO: However, I think.
MAY: You've got to admit that. Without Saddam Hussein, Iraq's a better place.
SHAPIRO: No question, it will be a much more humane place. I don't argue with that at all.
NEVILLE: Go ahead, Bruce, finish, please.
SHAPIRO: Now, the real question before we got back on to this track was about the quality of journalism at CBS. I'm not necessarily a fan of CBS, Dan Rather or TV news. But, frankly, I think Dan Rather did a fine job. I think that getting a head of state with whom we are about to go to war and asking him questions at length is a high journalistic calling.
MAY: Name one...
SHAPIRO: This is what we're in business for.
MAY: Bruce, name one...
SHAPIRO: That doesn't -- no wait a minute. That doesn't mean Saddam Hussein is honest. That doesn't mean he was frank. But we, as news consumers, as news viewers, got to see that and make our own judgments of that. And I think that was really the issue here.
MAY: Bruce, educate me as a news consumer. Tell me the one hardball question that Dan Rather asked him.
SHAPIRO: I think he asked questions about Iraq. He asked questions about...
NEVILLE: You know what guys, let me go ahead move this...
SHAPIRO: Excuse me guys, I'm going to move this conversation forward. As you probably know, the White House has a problem with that interview. Ari Fleischer spoke out saying nobody from the White House -- he felt someone from the administration should have been able to rebut Saddam's statements as they were made last night. Let's take listen to what Ari had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECY.: I think the American media generally are going to be facing some interesting and difficult decisions as Iraq puts people out to engage in propaganda. I believe that in this case, Dan Rather deserves to be congratulated for getting a serious journalistic interview with Saddam Hussein. However, we view what Saddam Hussein has said as propaganda and lies. And so the appropriate response is something that we'll, of course, talk to CBS about to see at what level and who could go out and respond to it. And that's a conversation we'll have with CBS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Now, Bruce, CBS extended that chance to rebut to President Bush, Dick Cheney as well Rumsfeld.
So do you think CBS did the right thing by offering that?
SHAPIRO: Sure, yes.
NEVILLE: But to no one else.
SHAPIRO: Well look, this is not the State of the Union address, where we're looking at Democrats or Republicans on the one hand this on the other hand that. This was an interview with the head of state and CBS was essentially saying, you know, 24 hours a day, Ari Fleischer and all the press and everybody else in the administration gets to put out the administration line. We'll talk to someone who is going to be of news caliber, whose statements are going to be of news value in the aftermath of this scoop.
NEVILLE: I will correct myself. It's Bush, Cheney and Powell, the invitation was extended to.
SHAPIRO: The point is that someone of stat -- someone of stature makes it news. It's not news if the usual spokes people get out and repeat the administration line over and over again which they do all day anyway.
MAY: Bruce, it's not up to CBS. What CBS should say to the White House, give us somebody to rebut the lies that Saddam Hussein was putting out there. If they want to put on it Ari Fleischer or Condi Rice, as they offer, that's fine to do. And it's not up to CBS. Also, don't you think Dan Rather...
NEVILLE: You guys hear the music. Please excuse me.
By the way, Dan Rather will be Larry King's guest tonight on LARRY KING LIVE, 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific. Check that out should be quite interesting.
And coming up next, some teachers in Maine are said to be harassing military kids as they use their classrooms to protest the war. We'll talk to a member of the state's national guard.
And then later, the Robert Blake murder case. How does Blake feel about his late wife? We'll tell you what a former detective told the court. Don't go anywhere the TALK continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. As I said we are awaiting a new conference with Secretary of State Colin Powell and members of the European Union. CNN will bring that to you live when it happens.
Now, we're talking about teachers in Maine. They're getting a little sensitivity training. There are complaints that some elementary and middle school teachers are sharing their anti-war feelings with their classes. And some children in military families say they're being verbally harassed.
We'll have the major on the phone with us in a moment. Major Peter Rogers. He's a spokesperson for the Maine National Guard.
And meantime, we're going to talk to Cliff May and Bruce Shapiro.
Listen, Bruce, I'll start with you.
Should teachers know better?
I mean, should they be remanded or punished?
SHAPIRO: I would want to know a lot more about what's going on in the classrooms. I think that with the country about to go to war, teachers, in fact, do have a responsibility to be aware of the alarm that may be rising in the minds of students, of discussing issues in class, of presenting varying points of view on the war, because kids are hearing that discussion out of school. They're hearing it on TV and coming into school distressed, alarmed, worried. All the more so, when there are children in the military families who parents may be going off to war.
I would not rush to judge teachers without knowing what they were really trying to do in that classroom. I'd like to know a lot more. I think the teachers actually play an important role at a time when our children are trying to figure out what's going on in the world, when their parents are at risk or older brothers and sisters may go and die.
NEVILLE: Well, Bruce, let me get answers, right now, from Major Peter Rogers. He is a spokesperson for the Maine National Guard, and he is joining us on the phone.
And Major, if you would tell us what's been happening to the children.
MAJ. PETER ROGERS, MAINE NATIONAL GUARD: Good afternoon. Yes, what we're hearing from our family assistant centers is that we're having calls from family members who are saying that their children are coming home depressed and upset, some of them have been crying about things that have happened both in the classroom and on the playground.
NEVILLE: And what has been happening?
What has been happening?
ROGERS: Well, we've had some educators, apparently, who have been talking about the war in Iraq being unethical and that we shouldn't be there and that anybody who fights in this war is also unethical. And should not be doing this.
NEVILLE: Now, are these statements coming up in sort of classroom debate or how is this coming up?
ROGERS: No, from what we're gathering, it's coming out just in conversation in the classroom. Of course some of these kids have already suffered the trauma of having one of their family members taken away to a deployment. So, it's getting them very upset. NEVILLE: So, what steps have been taken to rectify this situation, major?
ROGERS: Well, we've been in close contact with the department of education, and General Tinkham (ph), who is our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) general, has spoken to Commissioner Albanese (ph) to work this out. The department of education has been responsive and they're just as upset as we are. They've put out an advisory to principals and superintendents all over the state.
NEVILLE: Do you think there be guidelines about how to talk about the war with children in classrooms?
ROGERS: I know they did talk in the article about being more sensitive to the students feelings, that this is an explosive issue and to be careful of the sensitivities of children.
NEVILLE: And major, ultimately how do you think the situation should be handled?
ROGERS: That's what we're looking for. We're not looking at finger pointing or starting anything, but we want the situation to end. After the advisory went out, we haven't heard any complaints back to the family assistance centers. So, hopefully, that's all it took.
NEVILLE: Before I let you go, if you would recap, tell us what was said in the classroom and how the kid were reacting to that. They were going home crying, upset, and depressed?
ROGERS: That's correct. The children were going home at the end of the day, very upset, some crying, very depressed. Some of them had not talked about it for a couple days, about some remarks that were made on the playground and in the classrooms.
NEVILLE: Those remarks made by teachers and then children on the playground.
What was said?
ROGERS: That's correct. Some in the classroom, it was said that we should not be fighting a war in Iraq, that such a war is unethical. And anybody who fights in that war is an unethical person.
NEVILLE: OK. Major Peter Rogers, thank you so much for your time today.
And Cliff, getting back to you. You heard what the major had to say.
How do you think the situation should be handled?
MAY: I think it's outrageous and very depressing if these teachers, instead of educating, are indoctrinating these students as to their own opinions. I wish the teachers would take the time to educate themselves, and then the kids about what actually is taking place in Iraq over the past 25 years. The terrible slaughter of the Kurdish people in the North, the slaughters of Shiites, the total oppression, the lack of human rights. Saddam Hussein's attempt to wipe out neighboring country Kuwait. His attacks against other countries.
NEVILLE: I get your point, Cliff. I get your point Cliff.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Guys, excuse me for one moment, please. We have to maintain order.
OK, your turn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that teachers should express their opinion, but I do not think that teachers should press their opinion on any student. A student should have a right to make up his own mind.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much. Do appreciate it.
How old are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm 15. Ninth.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much.
OK. It's time for a break, everyone.
The talk of war with Iraq has provoked a lot of hostile words.
When we come back, we'll tell you why a member of Canada's parliament is saying I'm sorry after not so nice remarks about Americans. Details when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville. Explosive testimony in the Robert Blake murder case. We're going to get a live update in just a few minutes.
First, though, more on the showdown with Iraq. Take a look what happened when former President George Bush spoke out against the Middle East at Tufts University yesterday. A small group of protesters managed to get his attention before being herded out of the lecture hall. Let's take a look at how that little episode began and ended.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: This young lady has an eloquent way of expressing herself. Please notice.
(CHANTING)
G.H.W. BUSH: We've now found another real good reason to use duct tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: All right. So, Bruce, starting with you on this one, is this an appropriate way to express anti-war sentiments?
SHAPIRO: Well, I don't think it's appropriate for a former president of the United States to talk about gagging protesters, frankly. I think that's the inappropriate thing. I think the fact of the matter is that this war divides the American public as it divides the public in Europe and elsewhere. People who have strong feelings under our system of free speech are going to find ways to exercise it. And confronting the former president is one of them.
NEVILLE: OK, Robert, you were applauding when Bruce was speaking, why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really agree with Bruce. I think to stomp on any opposition is basically very un-American. Here in America, we agree to disagree. That's OK. That's why we love our country. To accuse anybody of disagreeing of being un-American, you know, the duct tape thing, like it's a bit too much.
NEVILLE: Cliff?
MAY: It's called a joke. And there was a time when people in the left knew what jokes were and actually laughed at them.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: It would be a joke if there weren't real risk of people feeling that the USA Patriot Act, other things are ways of government going after them. When people are being called un-American on places like CNN or Fox...
MAY: Bruce, you're on TV right now saying whatever you want and no one, not me, not Arthel, it putting duct tape on you. People have a right to get up and protest and President Bush has a right to make a joke at their expense.
And by the way, what she was saying and doing is not very persuasive, which is why about 70 percent of the public backs the president because they understand the that people of Iraq deserve to be liberated and Americans deserve to be protected against a rogue dictator assembling weapons of mass destruction.
SHAPIRO: Americans feelings about whether to prosecute this war and under what circumstances deeply divided. The point is that when a former president of the United States talks even in a joking way about physically gagging protesters, that sends a message.
MAY: Bruce, give me a break. Give me a break.
NEVILLE: How about this, guys? How about this? This story out of Ottawa, Canada. A Canadian member of Parliament is apologizing today, what she says was an offhand remark about America majoring a private conversation. However, it was a remark made in front of a slew of reporters. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROLYN PARRISH, MEMBER OF CANADIAN PARLIAMENT: They're world renowned for being peacekeepers and we keep trying. If you just give up, if you just give up, there's no hope at all. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Damn Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Yikes, that's what all she said. "Damn Americans, I hate those bastards."
Boy, OK. So, Cliff, since then, she's apologized, but has the damage been done?
MAY: The damage has been done. but what we have to recognize is that there's a lot of anti-Americanism abroad right now. There are a lot of people who don't like the fact that America is strong and is powerful and is successful. There are a lot of people -- when we say super-power...
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Let me finish, Bruce, and I'll give you a chance. When we say we're a super-power, we say that with some humility and a great deal of responsibility. I'm afraid when other people abroad say it, they say it with tremendous resentment.
SHAPIRO: There a re a lot of -- I think that's true but I think it's in part because under the Bush administration, we are going around acting in a unilateral way. Or had been trying to until the U.N. and countries like Canada and others began to put the brakes on.
(CROSSTALK)
SHAPIRO: ... this war is inspiring anti-American sentiment and frankly, I'm not so worried about the Canadians, OK? I'm not worried about this woman in Canada or Parliamentarians. The anti-Americanism that I'm worried about is what's going to be aroused and incited in the Middle East by a prolonged occupation of Iraq. That is the anti- Americanism we should worry about.
MAY: Bruce, you've got to give me a chance once in a while. I said to an Iraqi in exile the other day, how do you feel about the possibility of an American occupation? He said we don't want an occupation, we do want an American presence. We will need that.
What we're going to do, I hope, is we're going to help the Iraqi people themselves to develop their own democracy and have control over their own resources, which they don't now.
SHAPIRO: The administration has already told Iraqi exiles, including the kinds of people that you and I talked to, to forget about forming a provisional government, to forget about a swift transition to their own autonomy and democracy. That it's going to be a long occupation.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: There'll be no occupation. There'll be a presence (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I hope.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Bruce, they need security help. But I'll tell you this. If we install some thug...
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: If we install some thug who's suitable to the Saudis, rather than help the Iraqi Democrats develop a new society, then I'll be with you on this stage.
But right now, I'm not with you, because you are for the perpetuation of the tyranny of Saddam Hussein because you won't do anything about it but defend a fascist dictator.
NEVILLE: Bruce, ten seconds. Go ahead.
SHAPIRO: This is a dangerous war that will make the Middle East more dangerous and, in fact, we're seeing the Democratic promises made to the Kurds, to the opponents of Saddam Hussein being discarded by the day.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Cliff May, Bruce Shapiro, loved the lively debate. We'll have both you've together again so we can continue this. All right.
Coming up next, testimony in the Robert Blake murder case. Sounds like something that would play on "The Sopranos." Well, you'll get all the details after this break. Don't go anywhere. The talk continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: OK, everyone. We're going to go to the State Department now for a news conference with Secretary of State Colin Powell and members of the European Union.
(INTERRUPTED FOR LIVE EVENT)
NEVILLE: OK. We've been listening to Secretary of State Colin Powell at the State Department after a meeting with members of the European Nation. Right now, we're going to take a break. We'll have more TALKBACK LIVE in just a moment.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: And welcome back, everyone. A preliminary hearing is underway to determine if there is enough evidence to try actor Robert Blake for the murder of his wife, Bonny Bakley. That hearing has already produced some explosive testimony about Blake's attitude toward his wife, when before they were married she told him she was pregnant.
CNN correspondent Charles Feldman is covering this trial, and he joins us now with all the latest details -- Charles.
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, how you doing?
NEVILLE: Good.
FELDMAN: Yes, on the witness stand now is the heart of the prosecution case against Robert Blake. And the man's names is Gary McLarty. He is a Hollywood stuntman. And more germane to the point, he is somebody who Robert Blake allegedly approached in an effort to get him to kill his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley. Although McLarty said he turned down that job.
While on the witness stand, and while being questioned by prosecutors, he said a number of very interesting things. For example, McLarty told the court that he met with Robert Blake in a restaurant here in Los Angeles, and Blake brought up a scenario, a scenario that he says ended up being very much like what happened when Bonny Lee Bakley was murded. Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY MCLARTY, BLAKE'S FRIEND AND HOLLYWOOD STUNTMAN: I didn't know what restaurant he was even talking about. He just used a restaurant as a hypothetical thing. But that's what it was. It was to go out and eat dinner one night and then he would go back to the car and leave. That would give someone the time to go up there and dispose of her that way and then come back to the car, and what happened happened, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Now, did Robert Blake want Gary McLarty allegedly to bump off Bonny Lee Bakley for free? No sir, says McLarty. According to him, Robert Blake offered him cash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened then?
MCLARTY: Then we got out. He was wanting to know what my thoughts were. And I just said, "Hey, listen, why don't you just give me a call on this?" But also, he talked about a price too. He said that he wanted to pay $10,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Now, where we left off, McLarty said, under questioning by the prosecutor, that in the end, he eventually got a call from Robert Blake. He said Blake wanted to know if he was going to take the job. McLarty says that he told Blake that he had nothing against Bonny Lee Bakley and that wasn't the kind of job that he was into anyway. He was a stuntman and not a hit man.
And when we pick up with this preliminary hearing after the lunch break, he will be, I'm told, rather brutally cross-examined by Robert Blake's criminal attorney, Tom Mesereau -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: Wow. OK, Charles, what's the likelihood that this will actually make it to trial?
FELDMAN: About 100 percent. In this state of California, once something gets to the stage of a preliminary hearing, it is almost unheard of. I guess you should never say anything is 100 percent, but it is almost unheard of for something not to eventually go to trial. These preliminary hearings are designed basically to get the evidence before a judge. The judge signs off on it and then it will be up to the jury eventually.
NEVILLE: OK. And, of course, we will all be watching. Charles Feldman, thanks so much for the report.
FELDMAN: You're welcome.
NEVILLE: OK. And coming up, with us now is Robert Tarver. Robert is a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. He is the legal analyst for the northstarnetwork.com. And, Robert, I mean, you were just listening to that testimony. What stands out in your mind? What is damaging? What will work in Blake's favor?
ROBERT TARVER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I'll tell you what stands out in my mind. Defense attorneys nightmare when you think about this. It's bad enough that you had Welch (ph) testifying the other day that Blake told him that he wanted him to whack Bonny Lee Bakley. But now you have McLarty, who we knew about already.
And the big problem is it comes from two entirely different directions. Now, if it were two persons who perhaps had a relationship together, McLarty and Welch (ph), they knew each other, they worked together, you could say perhaps this is some sort of grand scheme. But right now, you've got to deal with what would be the motive of McLarty to say what he's saying and the motive of Welch (ph) to say what he's saying. It's very, very, difficult; almost insurmountable for a defense to get over those two.
NEVILLE: So then what will Blake's attorney have to -- what sort of questions will he have to ask when he cross-examines?
TARVER: Well, remember, Blake gave some inkling of what he was going to say, and that this had nothing to do with him, but has everything to do with Bonny Lee Bakley's sordid past. There are any number of people across the United States who might want to see her dead.
Now, I've got to tell you, we just witnessed some early cross- examination of McLarty that might also be a key to where they're going. They asked McLarty about whether or not he had been involved in making movies. Part of what people are saying is that one of the suggestions is that McLarty may have really wanted Robert Blake to help him work on a movie, to get him employed.
Blake is supposed to have said, look, I can't do that because I'm distracted by the Bonny Lee Bakley matter. Perhaps the defense might say at some juncture that this was McLarty's way of clearing those types of things out of the way so he could get Blake on board with him.
NEVILLE: Interesting. Well, as you know, Robert, last night, Barbara Walters had an interview with Robert Blake. Let's take a listen to a sound bite from that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR: I think she destroyed a lot of lives. And I think one life that she destroyed saw her on television. Because, don't forget, she wasn't Bonny Bakley. Nobody ever knew who she was. She had 25 or 30 IDs and a whole bunch of names. And, all of a sudden, he said there she is, because we got engaged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: So Robert, through this interview, is Robert Blake making a case for himself?
TARVER: Well, ordinarily, if it were not for the strength of the evidence of the other two witnesses, that might be pretty persuasive. Remember, one of the big things you have to establish as a defense attorney is whether or not -- actually, you don't have to establish anything, but you really want to make sure a jury understands that your client is not the type of guy who could do this type of thing.
What we know is that the prosecution has already attacked that. They have not one, actually not two, but three witnesses who are going to say this is precisely the type of guy, and it's the type of guy that approached us about doing this type of thing. So it almost falls hollow in many respects to be able to say that Bonny Lee Bakley, through her sordid past, may have been killed by someone else.
NEVILLE: OK. Robert Tarver, if you would, join us again when we talk more about this case in the future.
TARVER: I certainly will.
NEVILLE: OK. Well, it's a sad day in the neighborhood, boys and girls. Fred Rogers, the man who welcomed the world to his neighborhood for 30 years, has died of cancer. I want to hear your memories of "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood." Give me a call at 1-800- 310-4CNN, or you can e-mail me those memories at talkback@cnn.com. And we will share it with everyone after this break.
Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Well, it's a sad day in a lot of neighborhoods, as generations of fans mourn the loss of Fred Rogers. He'll forever be remembers as Mister Rogers, the man in the cardigan sweater and sneakers whose world included the land of make believe.
Well, he died of stomach cancer today. He was 74. David Newell, who played Mr. McFeeley on "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood" had this to say on CNN's "AMERCIAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID NEWELL, "MR. MCFEELEY": It was a half hour of quiet and solitude. Fred loved making his program. And I think what he loved most about it is the creation of it. Sitting down and composing the songs that he did and writing the scripts. The creative process what's what he really cherished.
Also, the legacy of Fred continues on public television. It's not off the air. It will be on around the country. So I hope your viewers will understand that it will be there for children to watch for generations to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. Let's share some of your neighborhood memories right now. We have e-mails coming in. Pam in Vancouver, she says, "My favorite memory of Mr. Rogers comes from his advice not to fear the bathtub, as there is no way you could ever, every go down the drain." Thanks, Pam.
And Kim in Ontario, Canada, says, "I will miss his gentle soft spoken ways and his wonderful messages of sharing and love that were imparted while dressed in his warm cardigan sweaters and his squeaky clean sneakers." OK, Kim, thank you so much.
We're going to talk to a gentleman now, Gary Knell. He is president and CEO of Sesame Workshop. And Gary is here to tell us what children want to see more of and less of on television. Gary, go ahead and fill us in.
GARY KNELL, PRESIDENT & CEO, SESAME WORKSHOP: Well, I just want to say that we really lost a giant in children's programming today in Fred Rogers. Fred was a pioneer in especially putting programming aimed at social and emotional development that was appropriate for preschoolers. And he really laid the ground work for "Sesame Street" and for other programs which would focus on those areas.
If you look at the top rated shows for preschoolers today, they're really focused, in addition to "Sesame," with letters, numbers and a cognitive curriculum, as well as social development. Shows like "Arthur," shows like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), have really at their core the essence of the messages that Fred Rogers gave us over 35 years ago.
NEVILLE: And what do you think children want to see more of on television now and perhaps less of? KNELL: Well I think children want to be engaged. I mean, children, like adults, don't want to be spoken down to. They want to be discussing important issues. Fred Rogers was never afraid to tackle tough to teach issues. He dealt with death. He dealt with divorce.
He spoke to parents about how to teach your kids lessons during the Persian Gulf War about what that meant. I think it's really appropriate, especially in these times, which are quite stressful, that we take the lessons that Fred left us in not teaching and talking down to kids, but, in fact, using the power of television in positive ways to engage them.
NEVILLE: Indeed. And we will be back after this break.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: Oh, Mr. Rogers. OK, we have another e-mail coming in right now. Sallie in Indiana, she says, "I'm a mother of three young children and my heart is filled with joy when they exclaim, 'Mr. Rogers, Mommy,' when his show comes on TV. Long may Mr. Rogers live in the hearts of our children and adults." Sallie in Indiana, thank you very much.
And Gary Knell, I want to thank you so much for joining us here. We are out of time. Thanks to all of you for watching.
I'm Arthel Neville. I'll be back again tomorrow 3:00 Eastern with more TALKBACK LIVE. And stay tuned, because CNN has obtained an early copy of the Blix report. Judy Woodruff will have that next on "INSIDE POLITICS."
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