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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
More Dramatic Testimony in Robert Blake Murder Case; Sources Say Baghdad Has Reluctantly Agreed to Destroy Al Samoud 2 Missiles
Aired February 28, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening, I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight, the Robert Blake case: could we be talking about evidence tampering in another high-profile celebrity case?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: More dramatic testimony in the Robert Blake murder case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said one night, after she had fallen asleep, somebody could sneak in there and sneak up the stairs and pop her.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a friend says Blake is innocent. But Bonnie Bakley had so many enemies he wasn't surprised when she was killed.
Sources say Baghdad has reluctantly agreed to destroy its Al Samoud 2 Missiles.
HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We received a letter yesterday, from Abdul Samoud (ph), in which he informed us that Iraq had in principle accepted our request for the destruction of the missiles.
ANNOUNCER: Will Saddam Hussein really disarm? Is this enough to stop a war?
Did the bouncers at the doomed Rhode Island nightclub block exits, trapping victims inside the blazing inferno?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said, what about the door right there? Get people out quicker. And they started getting physical, pushing us quicker to the windows and the doors.
ANNOUNCER: How many more people could have survived?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody inside?
ANNOUNCER: Carmen Electra, the sexy star bares her soul.
CARMEN ELECTRA, ACTRESS: I wasn't really dealing with the pain. I made a lot of really bad decisions and got in a little bit of trouble. ANNOUNCER: This is a side of Carmen Electra you've never seen before.
And our "Person of the Day": tall in the saddle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN broadcast center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. Tonight the Robert Blake case takes on another similarity to the O.J. Simpson trial. And it's not just a main character named Ito.
This is the third day of hearing to determine whether Blake stands trial for the murder of his wife. The LAPD's head detective Ron Ito was relentlessly questioned by Blake's lawyer about showing evidence in the case to a man named Miles Corwin, who reportedly was writing a book.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS MESEREAU, JR., ROBERT BLAKE'S LAWYER: When you took him to the police station, to him the crime scene, took him to witness interviews, took him to Mr. Blake's home, had him present, knew he was transporting Mr. Blake's clothes. When you did all these things, did you expect him to keep the information you were giving him confidential?
RON ITO, DETECTIVE, L.A. POLICE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: The judge himself acknowledged, "the possibility of contamination of evidence." CNN's Charles Feldman is covering the hearing in Los Angeles, where he joins us tonight.
Charlie, the headline out of today's hearing is just real -- pretty shocking. The potential of evidence tampering.
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure is. As you pointed out, it has echoes of the O.J. Simpson case. In this case, it's about an author, a former "Los Angeles Times" reporter named Miles Corwin, writing a book about the LAPD. He was along for almost the entire investigation into the Robert Blake matter.
And today at the preliminary hearing, the defense attorneys wanted to talk to him about it. They did. The prosecutor wanted to cut off that line of questioning. The judge would have none of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE LLOYD NASH, LOS ANGELES SUPERIOR COURT: I think the testimony that there was an author that was brought along on any investigation, be it this or any other one, is significant in terms of the potential possibility, number one, of contamination of evidence, bias of the witness, all -- it's fraught with all kinds of problems. And I'm sure the both of you are aware of. And I believe that is an absolute proper subject of cross-examination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Now, this has been percolating for months and now it finally has exploded -- Connie.
CHUNG: Charlie, you broke this story about this author, who is writing a book. How could this detective allow him to see evidence?
FELDMAN: Well, the author says, and the detective says, this was approved by the chief, then Chief of Police Bernard Parks, that he was along for the investigation.
But what's really interesting, Connie, is that not only was he along for the investigation, but at, at least one point in time, Detective Ito actually apparently tried to pass him off to some witnesses as a member of the police team. And here's a tape that was made by the police department that we aired and broke right here on CNN.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a card, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have identification?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm with these two guys.
ITO: He's -- he is actually a writer. He's on our case with us.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
FELDMAN: Now, Detective Ito has testified on the stand that Miles Corwin not only was along when they were questioning witnesses but he even handled some evidence, evidence that had not yet been tested by the defense -- Connie.
CHUNG: And Charlie, I know there is more significant testimony from that second stuntman. Tell us about that.
FELDMAN: Yes, this is stuntman number two, and this is a key prosecution witness. And the second person to take the stand to say that Robert Blake tried to get him to kill Bonnie Lee Bakley.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD HAMBLETON, STUNTMAN: He used the words -- "snuff" is one of the words he used.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With reference to what?
HAMBLETON: Getting rid of her. Until she's snuffed, and you know, I can't foresee doing anything, because she's going to wind up with half of whatever that I wind up making.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FELDMAN: So, we now have three people who have taken the stand, two Hollywood stuntmen, one former LAPD cop turned private eye, all three of whom say that Robert Blake approached them with a scheme to kill Bonnie Lee Bakley -- Connie.
CHUNG: Charles Feldman, thank you.
And with us now is a friend of Blake's who also knows what it's like on the inside. John Solari has several convictions on his record, including organized crime charges. These days he works as an actor, which is how he met Blake. He joins us from Los Angeles.
Thank you, Mr. Solari for being with us.
JOHN SOLARI, FRIEND OF BLAKE: Thanks for having me on.
CHUNG: Sure.
You used to live at Blake's home and you had met Bonnie Lee Bakley. Had you ever seen any evidence of violence on Blake's part against Bonnie?
SOLARI: Never, never. No, I never seen any violence against Bonnie. And I really never saw Robert do violence against anyone. A lot of people talk about Robert Blake, but I knew Michael Gubitosi and I never saw the violence that people are talking about.
I mean he was -- I was the one, if anybody was angry in the house, it was me. When I would look at the pictures and when she would call up and never, never once would she even mention little Rosy. All she worried about was having black furniture upstairs in her porno business.
This is a woman who, if I may say, this is a woman who not only robbed people of, you know, money, she robbed souls. Do you understand? These were real, real -- I was the one to worry about, not Robert. Robert was going to make this work.
CHUNG: Mr. Solari, did Blake ever tell you that he wanted Bonnie dead?
SOLARI: Never. And when the PI was on the stand and he was talking about all these -- Robert told me that he had got a PI guy, that this and that, and he told me about the money. But he never mentioned to me about that he wanted her whacked and then he changed his mind. I don't know where that came from.
CHUNG: But do you know what -- you did apparently say to Blake, because you're quoted as saying "This woman should be taken off the count, the census count." So, you offered to arrange a hit on her?
SOLARI: No, I never arrange a hit. I don't know if I really said it to Robert. I said it to people. I thought it. I said this is a woman who deserves to be taken off the count. Now if I said that to Robert or not, I'm not sure. I know I might have said, even when stick an ice pick in her eyeball.
CHUNG: Excuse me? What did you say?
SOLARI: But what I'm saying is that Robert -- I threatened to stick an ice pick in her eyeball.
CHUNG: You did?
SOLARI: When I was going to live in the back house.
CHUNG: Why?
SOLARI: She was going to live upstairs.
CHUNG: Why?
SOLARI: What do you mean, why? Look at this woman. That whole family, a bunch of Jerry Springer rejects. I -- I -- you know, I apologized. But I'm not ashamed of what I'm saying. I have no use for these people. They destroyed lives. They destroyed Robert. I saw my friend crying. His whole life being abused by this woman. I saw the pictures. Do you understand? The trailers, all those steamer trunks that were coming in the house. I saw the pictures. I saw the letters.
CHUNG: What were they?
SOLARI: They were naked pictures of her and letters that she wrote to all her victims.
SOLARI: Victims what was?
SOLARI: The tapes, the recordings. You know, her scams, the lonely hearts clubs, all of that. All her porno pictures that she would send out of herself. When she was young, and other pictures. And different letters. All kind of -- that kind of stuff.
CHUNG: You said that you were surprised that he allegedly asked other people to kill her because you said, "Why wouldn't he see if I knew anybody or anything? Why would he go to strangers?" What do you mean by that?
SOLARI: Right. I -- you know -- what do you mean? I've been in prison. I know people. It's not that I know people. I'm not going to convict myself here. What I'm saying is why wouldn't I -- you know a guy that's been in jail, been in prison, why wouldn't you ask him something? Why didn't Robert -- I'm his friend.
These other people that are talking about it, they're acquaintances. The PI guy worked for him, he wasn't his friend. The guy on the stand now and he says he hadn't seen him in 25 years? What are you -- these people didn't have -- you know, as them to whack your wife. I'm sitting with him, breaking bread with him. We're going down there to Frankie's on Melrose, and you know ... CHUNG: So, if you don't...
SOLARI: ... which is all Italians down there.
CHUNG: So, if you don't think that Robert Blake killed his wife, who did kill her? If you don't think he killed his wife, who did kill her?
SOLARI: I'll be honest with you, she wasn't a woman that would roll up the window if someone approached the car. It could have been a carjack, it could have been somebody from the past. Because she did say to people, to Robert, I was there when she called up and said, I'm afraid somebody is after me.
She was afraid to drive the Mercedes out. She wanted the plates changed right away. The kicker was, she says, Well, maybe I'll have my daughter drive it out. I says, That's like having a wiseguy have his wife go out and start the car. That's what this woman was about. Anybody could have done it.
CHUNG: John Solari, I thank you so much for being with us.
SOLARI: Thank you for having me. I wish I could be more poetic or right. I get excited. I love this guy and I know he's innocent. If this trial -- let me tell you something, if this trial is legitimate, Robert and Earl will come home.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you again.
SOLARI: Thank you.
CHUNG: One week after one of the worst fires in America's history, horrifying and heartbreaking news about what happened inside. A survivor of the Rhode Island nightclub fire says people ran for exit doors other than the main door. But they were told they couldn't leave through them. CNN's Brian Cabell has more on this and other news on the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): An alarming report has surfaced from the night of the fire. At least one concert goer, claiming he tried to escape through a less crowded side door, but was turned away by a bouncer.
JOHN GIBBS, CONCERT GOER: I said, what about, you know, the door, right there? Get people out quicker. He said, that's reserved for the band. Then they started getting physical, pushing us quicker to the windows and the doors.
CABELL: CNN attempted to contact attorneys of the club's owner for a comment on the allegation. Our calls were not returned.
CNN also obtained a copy of the fire inspection report conducted late last year at The Station. It listed nine mostly routine violations, all were remedied by the management. There's no mention of the soundproofing materials at the club.
Ever since the night of the fire, there have been repeated questions about the sound insulation, polyurethane foam that covered the walls and ceiling of the stage at The Station nightclub. Customers reported the flames spread rapidly across the foam. It appears the foam came from a company outside Providence.
The owner of the company told us he didn't want to appear on camera, but off camera he told us he sold the foam in June of 2000 and had it delivered directly to The Station nightclub.
Technically, he said, what he sold was not sound insulation, it was a packaging material. And, he said, it was not flame retardant. That would have cost about twice as much. The owner says he turned over a sample of the foam to the state attorney general's office.
The grand jury investigation into the case resumed on Friday. Band members of Great White were seen arriving. No word on any testimony. There is a report at least one band member is seeking immunity from prosecution.
Brian Cabell, CNN, West Warwick, Rhode Island.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Still ahead, nine of them were trapped for more than three days in a flooded Pennsylvania mine. Now we'll talk to one of them to find out why he's going back down. Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next, reports say Iraq has agreed to destroy its illegal missiles. Will it be enough to avoid war?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Russia today warned that it might veto a U.S.-backed U.N. resolution authorizing military action in Iraq. That's if Russia thinks the resolution threatens international stability. Russia and other opponents of the U.S. invasion said Iraq has shown that it can be made to disarm without war. Their evidence is Iraq's willingness to destroy Al Samoud missiles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: There are very many of these missiles and a lot of items that pertain to them, which we have enumerated in our letter, which is to be destroyed. So it is a very significant piece of real disarmament.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Tomorrow is the deadline for Iraq to start destroying those missiles. But the U.S. dismissed the importance of Iraq's decision to do so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Total disarmament is total disarmament, is total disarmament. It's not a piece of disarmament. As I said the other day, if somebody takes one bullet out of the chamber of a gun, while they have six other bullets in the gun. They've haven't disarmed, they have merely put one aside, while they still have five that can kill you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Joining us is former Assistant Secretary of State Jamie Ruben in London.
Thank you, Jamie for being with us.
Iraq now says that it will destroy those missiles. France becomes more entrenched. And now Russia says it might use its veto power. Isn't the United States in a quagmire?
JAMIE RUBIN, FORMER ASST. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, if the administration, with the support of Tony Blair here in Britain, decides to move forward with this resolution, this second resolution, at the U.N., to get support for that and to try to win a majority of votes, the decision by Iraq to destroy these missiles is going to make that more complicated.
Many of the members of the council will be looking to Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector. And he just said today that this is a major act of disarmament. And the fact is that if disarmament is your objective, the French and others will argue that at least the direction is the right direction, and this is the first real act of disarmament since this whole thing began. So the Bush administration and Tony Blair have a much tougher row to hoe than they did yesterday, or earlier this week.
CHUNG: So, what happens if the second U.N. resolution is vetoed by France or Russia?
RUBIN: At this point, it doesn't yet seem that the administration has the support, or Tony Blair here in Britain, has the support to get over nine votes. So the French and the Russians wouldn't necessarily have to exercise their veto.
But if having sought this resolution and having pushed it to a vote, the administration fails, I think that will make it that much harder for people like Tony Blair, who have already shown a profile in political courage by opposing masses of public opinion here. He's really taking big political risks, as are others here in Europe. So their hope that a resolution, a second resolution, would make it easier for them may prove to be unhelpful.
CHUNG: Jamie, do you believe that the United States would proceed with an invasion without a U.N. resolution approving it?
RUBIN: Well, I believe that the administration did not really prefer the second resolution route. I don't think they really wanted to go down this route. Mr. Blair pressed them for it. I think they would have been perfectly happy to use the old U.N. resolution from the fall, that was unanimous, and say that they had support for the so-called serious consequences in that resolution.
Having now gone for it and pushing it forward, I think they're more likely course of action is to delay and not push it to a vote and fail. And hope that in the next couple of weeks or so, Iraq again shoots itself in the foot by failing to do something else, because losing this vote is going to make it that much harder for the administration to go to war with the support of key allies like Tony Blair.
CHUNG: Jamie Rubin, thank you for being with us.
NASA has released the last recorded images of astronauts aboard Space Shuttle Columbia. The video shows four crewmembers on Columbia's flight deck as they reentered the atmosphere over the Pacific Ocean. Flares seen through the window are standard during reentry when super-hot gases build up around the shuttle.
NASA says the tape, which ends minutes before the shuttle's destruction, shows no sign of imminent disaster. Just standard on- board discussion from astronauts who had no sign they were about to die.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is amazing. It's really getting really bright out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. You definitely don't want to be outside now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: The tape, recovered from shuttle debris, and partially destroyed, was released today with permission from the crewmembers' families.
Right now, more news about Iraq tops tonight's look at the "World in 60."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): Arab foreign ministers welcome Iraq's pledge to dismantle its Al Samoud 2 missiles. The ministers are holding a summit tomorrow in Egypt to formulate a regional response to the Iraqi crisis.
In Pakistan, a suspect is in custody after an unknown number of people opened fire outside the U.S. consulate in Karachi. Two police officers were killed and six people injured.
U.S. officials say they've detected activity at a North Korea nuclear reprocessing plant, suggesting production of new nuclear weapons. South Korea expressed, quote, "deep worry and regret over the situation."
Brazil has deployed troops to Rio de Janero to help fight drug gangs, as tourists start arriving for annual carnival celebrations. Ten people have been killed this week in gang-related violence.
At the launch of the Department of Homeland Security, President Bush promised a more united defense against terrorism. Tomorrow, 22 agencies will be officially transferred to the new Department of Homeland Security.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next, after miraculously surviving a coalmine catastrophe, all the miners vowed they'd never go back underground. All but one, we'll meet the man who returned Quecreek Mine, when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: For more than three days, last July, nine men were trapped 20 stories below ground in a flooded Pennsylvania coalmine. For three nail-biting days, America wondered whether these guys, average working Americans, would survive.
You're about to meet one of those men and you may not believe what he's doing now. But first, CNN's Jeff Flock recounts the agonizing ordeal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been a roller coaster of emotions this whole time. And it's just unbelievable they've all survived. It's awesome. I'm just overcome.
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ordeal that ended so amazingly on worldwide live TV began a little before 9 p.m. on Wednesday, July 24, when men working at the Quecreek mine in Pennsylvania punch into a water-logged old mine.
Struggling against a flood, they save another crew by phoning a warning, but are trapped themselves. Overnight, rescuers above ground used global positioning satellites to pinpoint where they think the miners are and begin drilling an air hole to keep them alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're working on this side of that hole.
FLOCK: At 5:15 a.m. Thursday morning, they hear nine taps on the air hole shaft, the first indication someone is alive. Rigs are brought in to pump out water and a super drill, capable of quickly opening an escape hole, is rushed to the scene.
But Friday, 1:50 a.m., the super drill's bit, pushed too fast through the hard rock, breaks. It has now been more than 14 hours since rescuers heard the last tapping. Fragile hope begins to fade. Until late Friday night when the repaired super drill's bit finally punches through and rescuers begin to hear voices. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor, you got it?
FLOCK: Pennsylvania Governor Mark Schweiker confirms the news live on CNN and pictures are soon beamed around the world of an incredible rescue.
The 44-year-old crew chief, Fogle, who had complained of chest pains is first man out. It all ends with all nine alive and safe and a then surprising prediction from one of the rescuers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn't be surprised if these guys, in spite of what's happened to them, what they've been through, they'll go back down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Afterwards, Foreman Randy Fogle addressed one of the questions lots of people had. Would you go back down?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDY FOGEL, MINER: We've all thought about it, what everybody went through. I don't know if too many of us will go back to what we did do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Well, now he has. And he joins us now from Somerset, along with his wife Annette.
Thank you for being with us.
Randy, you were trapped down there for almost 80 hours. Why in heaven's name would you go back down for that job?
R. FOGLE: I can't find nothing else better I like. Really, that's about the easiest answer. I just like what I do.
CHUNG: Have miners been in your family for generations?
FOGLE: Yes. It's been in both our families for a long time. It's probably been in mine for four generations. It's something we've always done, for a long time. My grandfather's had their own mine. And I've worked the strip jobs and the deep mines since I've really been working. So it's something we're both pretty familiar with.
CHUNG: You know, I'm thinking right after the accident, you had to be saying, you cannot go back to this job. Am I right?
ANNETTE FOGLE, WIFE: It was -- I kind of figured that he was going to. But, yes, when he first told me, it didn't go over too good.
(LAUGHTER)
A. FOGLE: I got used to it though. CHUNG: Right. Did you try to convince him, and say, no, you cannot do this to me and the children?
A. FOGLE: No. No, I didn't. No, I flipped out on him there at first, you know, over time. We talked about other jobs that were offered to him. And I realized that this is what he likes to do.
CHUNG: How did the children feel?
A. FOGLE: So, might as well do what you like to do.
CHUNG: Sure. Annette, how did the children feel? There are three of them, right? Two boys and a girl.
A. FOGLE: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
A. FOGLE: They're not real happy about it.
CHUNG: Have you had any nightmares, Randy, about what happened? Because I know a lot of your colleagues, the other guys who were down there, have some nightmares.
R. FOGLE: No, I really try not to or I don't think about it a lot. I try to just go forward. It's like being in any type of an accident, that you have to move forward with it, so you don't keep on going back through it or I think it would affect you. I just try to take one step at a time and just keep moving forward.
CHUNG: Now, the other eight miners have not gone back to mining. Why do you think they haven't, Randy?
R. FOGLE: Well, it kind of affected everybody a little bit different through the whole ordeal. And if you don't really love this job, it's no sense to do it, because it is -- it's a safe job, but it really is hard on your body in the kind of work and stuff we do in the environment. With the water, it's muddy and stuff all the time when it's low. And I think they decided, and with what they went through, that it was enough for them, that it was time to get out.
CHUNG: I know some of them are unemployed.
Now, what would you do if one of your kids said, I want to be a miner?
R. FOGLE: Well, I told both my boys pretty early on that, if I caught them going into mines or if they wanted to go into mines, I'd break both their legs.
CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.
R. FOGLE: It's something I don't want them to do. I don't.
CHUNG: Why not?
R. FOGLE: I would rather they didn't go into that.
It's almost like a dinosaur, a dying breed. Coal mining today, the way it's going with everything, it's like it's falling off, even though it generates electricity and stuff that we do need, that not too many people are getting in it. There's been mining in Pennsylvania for 100 years. It just seems like it's slowly fading away.
CHUNG: Well, I want to thank you both so much for being with us.
Randy, I admire your courage. And, Annette, I love the fact that you just go ahead and let him do what he wants to do. I think that means you're going to have a long marriage, right?
A. FOGLE: I hope. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: All right, Randy and Annette Fogle, I thank you so much.
And still ahead: returning to a very different job. Carmen Electra goes back to the beach.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: He says he's not a nutritionist, but a diet coach. Some have called him the Pat Riley of the refrigerator. Stephen Gullo takes the ""Diet Challenge"."
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: All week, our "Diet Challenge" series has been looking at competing weight-loss plans. But a lot of people who have tried a lot of diets will tell you the trick isn't losing the weight as much as it is keeping it off.
Psychologist Stephen Gullo, author of "Thin Tastes Better," has a plan that isn't very unusual. He says you've got to keep calories low, between 1,000 to 1,500 a day, to lose weight. What is unusual is the success his dieters have had at maintaining their weight loss.
We wanted to find out how, so we put him to the "Diet Challenge."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Stephen, thank you so much for being with us.
STEPHEN GULLO, AUTHOR, "THIN TASTES BETTER": Connie, it's my pleasure to be here.
CHUNG: Great.
All right, you have sort of a phrase that you live by. What is it? White is light and green is lean? GULLO: Lean, yes.
CHUNG: And what does that mean?
GULLO: When you really want to be on the Concorde to thin, when you want to lose it quickly, safely, and not be hungry, think, white fish, white pork, white chicken, white seafood, white egg omelets, and the green and white vegetables. And it actually speeds up your metabolism. You don't need to take medication. You need to eat smart.
CHUNG: You're called the diet shrink. And something that is very important is to go into the past food history of every individual.
GULLO: Yes.
The same people, Connie, gain back the same weight with the same foods again and again and again. This is the only area of health care where we ignore the patient's history.
CHUNG: Oh, you're so right.
GULLO: The patient's food history.
We're trying to teach people to have a little of foods they have a long history of abusing. It really isn't that I can't have it. It's whether this food works with me or works against me. Once you understand, it's your own history that sets the boundaries, that makes certain foods off-limits, you don't feel deprived. You realize, this is the food that has made you fail. This is the food that has made you gain it back again and again. Remember, thin has a taste also. And thin tastes better.
CHUNG: This is something I could eat tomorrow, right? This could be my average day?
GULLO: That's right.
CHUNG: Go for it. Tell me about it.
GULLO: OK.
I recommend starting out the day with a high-energy protein breakfast, like the yogurt, maybe top it with a little cereal, high- grain cereal, and some fruit. And why do I pick that? Because dairy products actually stimulate your metabolic efficiency and help you to lose weight.
CHUNG: OK, I see a bagel there.
GULLO: Yes, I wanted to show you this. This bagel is about 400, 500 calories. It doesn't have half as much fiber as those two teaspoons of high-grain cereal that are only 20 calories. And fiber keeps appetite under control.
CHUNG: I see. So, you're telling me, don't eat that?
GULLO: That's the idea.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: OK.
GULLO: Unless you want to wear it.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Right around the middle, huh? There's a festival going on down here, I'm telling you.
OK, what's next? Lunch?
GULLO: Lunch would be a great soup, a heavy soup. And soup has been ranked No. 1 in killing appetite in studies with weight-control patients.
CHUNG: You're kidding, because I'm looking at this and saying, I'm not going to be full.
GULLO: Yes. You're going to be awfully surprised. These two crackers, these bran crackers, have as much fiber as eating a pound of vegetables.
CHUNG: Oh, I thought this was bread. Oh, no, it's a cracker? OK.
GULLO: No, no, no, no. It's a high-fiber bran cracker.
CHUNG: Gotcha.
GULLO: Fiber kills appetite.
At 4:00, for most people, is when the trouble starts. If you skip this snack, you're probably going to get into trouble later at night. So we have some bran crackers with a little peanut butter.
CHUNG: Oh, I love it, you mean regular peanut butter?
GULLO: Yes. And you know why I didn't use the low-fat peanut butter? The low-fat peanut butter actually has as many calories as the high-fat peanut butter. They just use the calories from sugar. So you can pick whatever you prefer. Just use a teaspoon. It's not a freebie.
The other choice for a snack, believe it or not, is shrimp. The average shrimp cocktail is 85 calories. It's no more in terms of calories than eating an apple. It's a great protein and it keeps your appetite in perfect control.
CHUNG: Is this is a bloody Mary?
GULLO: Don't get too imaginative. (LAUGHTER)
GULLO: But it could be a bloody Mary. Tomato juice is another great appetite suppressant. So, when you sit in the restaurant, instead of picking on the bread basket, when they ask you for a drink, ask for the tomato juice. It's about 50 calories and it will save you 500 calories with the bread basket.
CHUNG: So it's more filling.
GULLO: It's more filling, less calories.
CHUNG: OK, this is dinner.
GULLO: These are two veggie burgers and sweet potato and mixed vegetables. It's crunchy. It's filling. You can put some no-fat or light cheese on it and have an awesome cheeseburger substitute.
CHUNG: OK.
GULLO: Because it's not about depravation, but substitution.
CHUNG: All right, dessert?
GULLO: Would you believe this is about 200 calories or less?
CHUNG: What is this made of?
GULLO: This is a whole-grain waffle. Once again, it's high fiber. It kills appetite. It replaces a cake or cookies, which will only lead you to eat more and more if you're sugar sensitive.
And if you notice something...
CHUNG: What?
GULLO: You're eating five times a day. You're eating three meals.
CHUNG: Right.
GULLO: You're eating two snacks. Structure gives control. If you're hungry on a weight-control program, you're doing something wrong. You need the structure. Don't skip meals and snacks. Eat more and you will actually lose more.
CHUNG: Great.
Now, here's a statistic that's really astounding: 90 percent of dieters regain that the weight they lose in five years.
GULLO: Yes.
CHUNG: However, on your diet, which is quite extraordinary -- and even the experts are saying I don't know how it happens -- 45 percent of dieters actually maintain their weight for five years. GULLO: Yes.
CHUNG: How is that possible?
GULLO: A diet is just words on a paper. If you don't teach people how to live it and make it a lifestyle and not feel deprived and overcome their PMS, poor-me syndrome, they're going to fail. They're going to fail.
CHUNG: But that is so hard.
GULLO: Yes.
CHUNG: It is really probably the most difficult part of this.
GULLO: Yes. But, you know, it's only a piece of food against us, Connie. When a smart person loses to a piece of food, they're doing something wrong. Think strategy. Look at the foods that keep tripping you up again and again. Look at the times of the day and the places.
CHUNG: And one of the best things that you say is, grow up. What do you mean when you say, grow up?
GULLO: This is the only area of adult behavior where we expect to have it all. And if we don't have it all, we'll feel deprived. Well, if you eat it all, you will look like you have had it all. The goal is to be a selective gourmet, not a victim of food.
CHUNG: All right, Stephen, I thank you so much for being with us.
GULLO: It's great to be here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: When we come back, if you're thinking about dieting, you're probably not going to like our next guest. On the other hand, if you're a guy, you probably will -- Carmen Electra right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Carmen Electra has a lot more going on than just her new "Baywatch" reunion, the "Baywatch Hawaiian Wedding" special. She's hosting a new version of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" called "Livin' Large." And she's been starring in "The Pussycat Dolls," a burlesque show. Of course, she's gone through some choppy waters too. You know that, not just in "Baywatch," but in her well-publicized personal life. We talked about that and more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Carmen Electra, I'm so happy to have you with us.
ELECTRA: Thank you, I'm happy to be here.
CHUNG: Good.
Now, you're in a very good place in your life right now. Things are going pretty well. You're engaged, right?
ELECTRA: Yes.
CHUNG: And why don't you tell everybody who you're engaged to?
ELECTRA: His name is Dave Navarro. And he's just the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. He's really changed my life. I'm really happy to have him in my life.
CHUNG: Good for you.
OK, so let's roll back. You were born and raised in a suburb in Ohio.
ELECTRA: Cincinnati, Ohio, yes.
CHUNG: There you go.
ELECTRA: Yes.
CHUNG: I don't know if a lot of people know that. Your real name is?
ELECTRA: Tara Patrick.
CHUNG: Now, one of the biggest surprises in reading about you was that, when you auditioned for Prince, you actually sang a song from "The Sound of Music."
ELECTRA: Yes.
CHUNG: I can't imagine Prince playing the music on the piano and you singing. What did you sing?
ELECTRA: "Do Re Mi" from "The Sound of Music."
And you know what? It was so shocking, because I was only 18 years old. And here I am at his house and I'm auditioning for this all-girls band that he's putting together. And he asked me to sing something. So he go over to the piano and he starts playing "Do Re Mi." And I was in "The Sound of Music."
CHUNG: Oh, so you knew it?
ELECTRA: So I knew it. So, I was like, OK, this is perfect, but very odd.
CHUNG: Very strange.
Let's go back, then. I was also surprised to learn that you came from a family of six kids.
ELECTRA: Yes. CHUNG: Yes. You had a very rough year in 1998.
ELECTRA: I did. I had a really hard time. My mom was diagnosed with a brain tumor. She lived for about a year with the tumor, but then she passed away. And a week before my mother passed away, my sister died in her sleep.
CHUNG: Oh, my gosh. And she had a heart attack.
ELECTRA: She had a heart attack in her sleep.
CHUNG: How old -- she was young?
ELECTRA: Yes. She was only 40 years old. And I really didn't know how to deal with that, because my grandparents are really old. They're in their 90s. And they've lived a long life. And so, just to have my mom and sister pass away so sudden, I just really didn't know how to handle it.
So I kind of pretended like everything was OK. And because they lived in Ohio, to me, they were still there.
CHUNG: Sure.
ELECTRA: So I wasn't really dealing with the pain. And I made a lot of really bad decisions and got in a little bit of trouble.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Well, OK, so we'll tell them about one little thing that they already know about, right?
ELECTRA: One little thing? OK. OK.
CHUNG: You were married to Dennis Rodman for 30 seconds, right?
ELECTRA: We were actually married for about five months.
CHUNG: OK.
ELECTRA: But we had dated for two years.
You know, I was just -- I can't really explain why I did that. It was just, I think, not wanting to deal with the pain. And I think it was a distraction. And it was a lot of excitement, too, because it was a lot of fun. There was a lot of fun nights out on the town and traveling. But then there was a lot of pain. And, finally, I woke up and I decided that, in order to heal, you have to feel. And I needed to get away from everything that was preventing me from feeling the loss of my family.
CHUNG: And once you were able to feel, you actually -- you were able to grieve?
ELECTRA: Absolutely. I started to cry. And the more that I would cry and allow myself to feel it, the stronger I got. And it was just -- it was such an amazing growth period. And I don't know how I figured it all out, but I did. And I spent about a year alone and I didn't date. I didn't want to date anybody, because I had gone on a few dates and it was just a disaster. And it was always in the tabloids.
And you would go on a couple of dates with a guy and they're saying that -- they make it into so much more. And so I just needed to be alone. And then I met Dave, who's been amazing. And my career and everything changed. My whole life turned around. So I'm really happy now.
CHUNG: Good for you.
So, you really are doing well. You have the new version of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous," right?
ELECTRA: Yes. Yes.
CHUNG: And then you have this "Baywatch" special that's coming up.
Another thing I read about you that just sort of was, "Huh?" you auditioned for "Baywatch" knowing full well you were going to play a lifeguard, and yet you couldn't swim very well. You could swim a little, but you weren't a swimmer.
ELECTRA: Well, the thing is, I wanted the job so bad because I just -- I thought it was such a great, fun show. And I would watch it all the time. And so when the producers of "Baywatch" called me to audition, I was so excited. And I was sort of caught on the spot. During the audition, they said, so, can you swim? And I said, yes. And they, well, we have this water tank downstairs.
And so I had to go down and do a swim test. But there's a complete difference from swimming in a pool, opposed to swimming in the ocean.
CHUNG: Oh, I think so.
ELECTRA: It's really hard to swim in the ocean. So, I figured that I could take some lessons and by that time, I'd be fine. And it was hard. It was really hard. I pulled it off OK, but it was tough.
CHUNG: Well, now everybody's bringing all their kids back, right?
ELECTRA: I know. Everyone has children. It's so sweet. The reunion was so much fun. And I'm pretty much like the only one that doesn't have a baby. So I need to get started right away.
CHUNG: Well, go.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Go ahead. Get on it. Thank you for coming.
ELECTRA: I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
CHUNG: Good. Good.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Tonight, a federal jury has convicted a 72-year-old man for a murder that occurred 37 years ago. The jury found that Ernest Avants kills Ben Chester White, a black sharecropper, in 1966. Prosecutors said it was part of a Ku Klux Klan plot to lure Martin Luther King Jr. to Jackson, Mississippi, and assassinate him.
Despite an FBI claim that Avants confessed, he publicly denied it for 37 years, including when I asked him in an ABC News interview in 1999.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Did you kill Ben Chester White?
ERNEST AVANTS, ACCUSED OF MURDER: No, I did not.
CHUNG: Did you shoot him with a shotgun?
AVANTS: No, I did not.
CHUNG: Did you have anything to do with the murder of Ben Chester White?
AVANTS: No, I did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: It was our report that prompted the Justice Department to file federal murder charges against Avants more than 30 years later. Prosecutors could have sought the death penalty, but did not. Avants faces up to life in prison at sentencing May 9.
Right now, tonight's "Snapshot" has its eye on a minor mystery surrounding late-night television.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): Mystery solved: What caused the eye infection that forced David Letterman to call in sick for only the second time in 20 years? Doctors say shingles.
One Hollywood celebrity is bucking the trend of protesting war with Iraq. Instead, former Republican Senator and actor Fred Thompson is doing a television spot supporting President Bush and his policies.
Actress Bridget Fonda is recovering from minor injuries she suffered in what police call a weather-related accident. Fonda, 39, was hospitalized after losing control of her car on rain-slicked Pacific Coast Highway near Los Angeles. And the latest winter storm to wallop the East left almost 400,000 people without power in Virginia and North Carolina. Even one power company lost power at its operations center.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tonight, a journalistic no-no, favoritism, leads to our choice for "Person of the Day."
McKenzie Mullins may not win the World Cutting Horse Competition running through Sunday at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, but since she's only 12 years old, believed to be the youngest ever in the championships, can you blame us for cheering her on? The competition tests skills involved in cutting cows off from their herd. And McKenzie is going up against 14 full-grown cowboys. She does it by keeping the competition in perspective and sharing the credit with her horse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCKENZIE MULLINS, CUTTING HORSE COMPETITOR: I'm very comfortable on him. And I think he's comfortable with me. So I just say, it will be fun, and if it doesn't work out, it was a great experience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Good for you, McKenzie -- and one which will include going up against her stepdad, who also trained her.
She doesn't have the advantage of experience. And, at 85 pounds, McKenzie doesn't have an edge in weight, riding a 1,200-pound horse. So, win or lose, taking on odds like that and getting to the world championship makes McKenzie Mullins our "Person of the Day."
And on Monday, we'll have the latest on the Robert Blake hearing. Plus, jury selection begins in the trial of the man accused of killing abortion provider Dr. Barnett Slepian.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": John Edward. He says that he can talk to dead people, but you'll have to use the phone.
Thank you so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and have a great weekend. I'll see you on Monday.
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