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Little Common Ground Between Moscow, Washington on Iraq Issue
Aired February 28, 2003 - 10:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Extending this morning to both the White House and the Kremlin, there appears to be little common ground between those. Earlier this morning, Russia said it is prepared to veto the U.N. resolution, which is backed by Washington, and that would clear the way for military action on Iraq.
CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is following these latest developments. She is joining us with more from the White House. Suzanne, good morning.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn. Well, the White House is really downplaying the significance of Iraq offering to destroy its forbidden missiles, those Al-Samoud 2 missiles. A White House spokesman, Ari Fleischer, just moments ago in the gaggle saying -- and I'm quoting here, "It is all a part of the deception of Saddam Hussein, that we expect that they will destroy some, but not all."
And also says that while he will destroy one missile, on the other hand, that he'll produce many others on the other hand. All a part of 12 years of deception from Saddam Hussein.
Earlier today, we saw in the "USA Today" an interview with President Bush. He says -- and I am quoting here -- that "my attitude about Saddam Hussein is that if he had any intention of disarming, he would have disarmed. We will disarm him now."
White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer saying that, no, this does not mean the president has made up his mind about going to war, that this is simply 12 years of deception that the Iraqi leader has continued to deceive the rest of the world. British prime minister Tony Blair early this morning, as well as Spain's prime minister (sic), Jose Maria Aznar, both of them at a press conference in Madrid emphasizing, backing up Mr. Bush, saying that now it is time for him to comply.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: This is not a time for games. He knows perfectly well what he has to do. He has to say, what has happened, for example, to the eight and a half thousand liters of anthrax, the 360 tons of chemical warfare agent...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: So the truth of the matter is administration officials really don't see it making much difference whether or not Saddam Hussein says, Yes, I'm going to destroy this missile or that missile, that it really, quite frankly, is too late. Administration officials also a bit less confident about getting the U.N. Security Council resolution passed, the 9 needed votes. Again looking at, perhaps, a veto from France and even, now, perhaps Russia. But also administration aides saying that the president has even more resolve now that he may have to move without the U.N. Security Council -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Suzanne Malveaux doing double duty, giving us our White House update and our weather update. All at the same time. A snowy White House this morning. Thank you, Suzanne.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: It seems like every time we have her on it is snowing outside.
KAGAN: I know.
HARRIS: Well, U.S. intelligence officials are working every avenue to gather information on Iraq's weapons program, and among the people they have been talking with are Iraqi defectors. They have been saying that some of the best information they are getting is coming from anyone who has defected from Iraq, and has been part of any of the programs.
Now, one of the highest-ranking defectors came from Saddam Hussein's own family, Saddam's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel is his name, and he was said to be a gold mine of information. Now, "Newsweek's" national security correspondent John Barry did an exclusive report on the defectors' secrets.
He joins us now to talk more about it, and John, we are glad to have you with us this morning, because your piece really does raise some questions. As a matter of fact, this man who has been called a gold mine of information, supplied information that casts a lot of doubt on whether any stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction actually exist, correct?
JOHN BARRY, "NEWSWEEK": Yes. Hussein Kamel came out, defected to Amman in Jordan in August of 1995, and he was there, interviewed by three groups of people, by the United Nations inspectors, by the CIA, and by the British Secret Service, and we got hold of the notes of his interrogation by the U.N. inspectors, which have been held secret up until now.
And what they reveal is that he told the inspectors quite clearly that Iraq had destroyed, in the wake of the Gulf War, its stocks of chemical and biological agents.
HARRIS: Did he say that the programs had been destroyed or that the stockpiles had been destroyed?
BARRY: No. He made it clear that Iraq had hidden blueprints, and he talked about blueprints on microfiches, he talked about computer disks, he even talked about some missile molds having been hidden, and he said that some of the members of the Military Industrial Commission, which kind of ran their programs, had been asked to take documents home, that sort of thing, and he made it clear that Iraq wanted to keep the program -- as it were, potentially in being, so they could restart at some point, but he said that the stocks themselves had all been destroyed.
HARRIS: As I read it here, I am going to read a quote from your piece here. Kamel says that hiding these documents and proof of these programs in these -- say, the scientist's homes or whatever, is the first step to return production after the U.N. inspections wind down. So it's clear that the plan was to hide all of this until the inspections were actually lifted. So does that prove, or does that say anything about the efficacy of the inspection regime?
BARRY: He was complimentary about the inspection regime. He said -- he said -- I don't have the exact quote in front of me, in the document here, but he said -- what was it -- he was asked, were weapons and agents destroyed? And Kamel says, Nothing remains. And then the interrogator said, was that before or after inspections by the U.N. started?
And Kamel said, After visits of inspection teams. You have an important role in Iraq with this. You shouldn't underestimate yourself, you are very effective in Iraq.
And so he made it clear that the efficacy of the inspection teams had really surprised the Iraqis. It was after the first round of inspections, I know from other sources, that the decision to destroy these stocks was taken.
HARRIS: Yes, there are some of the defectors who have come out and said things that were countered -- to what we heard Hussein Kamel say, and here is a sound bite from a guest that we had in one of our earlier shows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI, FORMER IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: He has a very elaborate concealment system with more than 2,000 special security officers planning (ph) to move these around, hide them deep underground. There is a tunnel system under Baghdad, which he has been using in the past to move about the city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Now, this man is saying that there is still some sort of a stockpile that is there. However, Kamel, who was actually a manager of the program -- he wasn't just a scientist, he was a manager of the program.
BARRY: He -- he ran the whole program.
HARRIS: And he said there were no -- there were no stockpiles, and he was actually counted as a credible witness to the U.S., correct?
BARRY: Yes. Also, our sources tell us that the CIA counted him, and have every since counted him as a credible witness. HARRIS: Let me ask you this then: is that the reason why -- or is this, in your view, the reason why the administration has been saying that they know that the inspectors will not find any stockpiles there?
BARRY: I don't know, you would have to speculate about that. But I simply think that this is a document. Hussein Kamel may have been lying, but I think it is a document that is worth putting into the public debate right now.
HARRIS: Have there been any other defectors who have come out and have confirmed what Hussein Kamel said?
BARRY: Yes, I understand there were. I haven't interviewed them myself, because most of them have been kept under wraps. But there was one of the aides to Hussein Kamel, a Major Isidin (ph), who came out with him, and in fact did not go back into Iraq, and therefore didn't get killed, and is now living, I think, somewhere in Europe.
He was, in fact, a better technical source on the programs than Kamel had been, because he was a technician, not a manager, and he -- I am told by reliable sources, he confirmed what Kamel had said. As to other defectors, it gets very muddy, because some of the defectors, essentially, will say anything to get a green card, and I am quoting a U.S. intelligence officer when I say that. So it's very hard to -- for outsiders, to weigh the probity or otherwise of defectors.
HARRIS: That's very fascinating as well. John Barry, thank you very much. Appreciate you coming in and explaining some more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this piece and nice piece reporting yourself. Take care.
BARRY: Thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Issue>
Aired February 28, 2003 - 10:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Extending this morning to both the White House and the Kremlin, there appears to be little common ground between those. Earlier this morning, Russia said it is prepared to veto the U.N. resolution, which is backed by Washington, and that would clear the way for military action on Iraq.
CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is following these latest developments. She is joining us with more from the White House. Suzanne, good morning.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn. Well, the White House is really downplaying the significance of Iraq offering to destroy its forbidden missiles, those Al-Samoud 2 missiles. A White House spokesman, Ari Fleischer, just moments ago in the gaggle saying -- and I'm quoting here, "It is all a part of the deception of Saddam Hussein, that we expect that they will destroy some, but not all."
And also says that while he will destroy one missile, on the other hand, that he'll produce many others on the other hand. All a part of 12 years of deception from Saddam Hussein.
Earlier today, we saw in the "USA Today" an interview with President Bush. He says -- and I am quoting here -- that "my attitude about Saddam Hussein is that if he had any intention of disarming, he would have disarmed. We will disarm him now."
White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer saying that, no, this does not mean the president has made up his mind about going to war, that this is simply 12 years of deception that the Iraqi leader has continued to deceive the rest of the world. British prime minister Tony Blair early this morning, as well as Spain's prime minister (sic), Jose Maria Aznar, both of them at a press conference in Madrid emphasizing, backing up Mr. Bush, saying that now it is time for him to comply.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: This is not a time for games. He knows perfectly well what he has to do. He has to say, what has happened, for example, to the eight and a half thousand liters of anthrax, the 360 tons of chemical warfare agent...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: So the truth of the matter is administration officials really don't see it making much difference whether or not Saddam Hussein says, Yes, I'm going to destroy this missile or that missile, that it really, quite frankly, is too late. Administration officials also a bit less confident about getting the U.N. Security Council resolution passed, the 9 needed votes. Again looking at, perhaps, a veto from France and even, now, perhaps Russia. But also administration aides saying that the president has even more resolve now that he may have to move without the U.N. Security Council -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Suzanne Malveaux doing double duty, giving us our White House update and our weather update. All at the same time. A snowy White House this morning. Thank you, Suzanne.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: It seems like every time we have her on it is snowing outside.
KAGAN: I know.
HARRIS: Well, U.S. intelligence officials are working every avenue to gather information on Iraq's weapons program, and among the people they have been talking with are Iraqi defectors. They have been saying that some of the best information they are getting is coming from anyone who has defected from Iraq, and has been part of any of the programs.
Now, one of the highest-ranking defectors came from Saddam Hussein's own family, Saddam's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel is his name, and he was said to be a gold mine of information. Now, "Newsweek's" national security correspondent John Barry did an exclusive report on the defectors' secrets.
He joins us now to talk more about it, and John, we are glad to have you with us this morning, because your piece really does raise some questions. As a matter of fact, this man who has been called a gold mine of information, supplied information that casts a lot of doubt on whether any stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction actually exist, correct?
JOHN BARRY, "NEWSWEEK": Yes. Hussein Kamel came out, defected to Amman in Jordan in August of 1995, and he was there, interviewed by three groups of people, by the United Nations inspectors, by the CIA, and by the British Secret Service, and we got hold of the notes of his interrogation by the U.N. inspectors, which have been held secret up until now.
And what they reveal is that he told the inspectors quite clearly that Iraq had destroyed, in the wake of the Gulf War, its stocks of chemical and biological agents.
HARRIS: Did he say that the programs had been destroyed or that the stockpiles had been destroyed?
BARRY: No. He made it clear that Iraq had hidden blueprints, and he talked about blueprints on microfiches, he talked about computer disks, he even talked about some missile molds having been hidden, and he said that some of the members of the Military Industrial Commission, which kind of ran their programs, had been asked to take documents home, that sort of thing, and he made it clear that Iraq wanted to keep the program -- as it were, potentially in being, so they could restart at some point, but he said that the stocks themselves had all been destroyed.
HARRIS: As I read it here, I am going to read a quote from your piece here. Kamel says that hiding these documents and proof of these programs in these -- say, the scientist's homes or whatever, is the first step to return production after the U.N. inspections wind down. So it's clear that the plan was to hide all of this until the inspections were actually lifted. So does that prove, or does that say anything about the efficacy of the inspection regime?
BARRY: He was complimentary about the inspection regime. He said -- he said -- I don't have the exact quote in front of me, in the document here, but he said -- what was it -- he was asked, were weapons and agents destroyed? And Kamel says, Nothing remains. And then the interrogator said, was that before or after inspections by the U.N. started?
And Kamel said, After visits of inspection teams. You have an important role in Iraq with this. You shouldn't underestimate yourself, you are very effective in Iraq.
And so he made it clear that the efficacy of the inspection teams had really surprised the Iraqis. It was after the first round of inspections, I know from other sources, that the decision to destroy these stocks was taken.
HARRIS: Yes, there are some of the defectors who have come out and said things that were countered -- to what we heard Hussein Kamel say, and here is a sound bite from a guest that we had in one of our earlier shows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI, FORMER IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: He has a very elaborate concealment system with more than 2,000 special security officers planning (ph) to move these around, hide them deep underground. There is a tunnel system under Baghdad, which he has been using in the past to move about the city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Now, this man is saying that there is still some sort of a stockpile that is there. However, Kamel, who was actually a manager of the program -- he wasn't just a scientist, he was a manager of the program.
BARRY: He -- he ran the whole program.
HARRIS: And he said there were no -- there were no stockpiles, and he was actually counted as a credible witness to the U.S., correct?
BARRY: Yes. Also, our sources tell us that the CIA counted him, and have every since counted him as a credible witness. HARRIS: Let me ask you this then: is that the reason why -- or is this, in your view, the reason why the administration has been saying that they know that the inspectors will not find any stockpiles there?
BARRY: I don't know, you would have to speculate about that. But I simply think that this is a document. Hussein Kamel may have been lying, but I think it is a document that is worth putting into the public debate right now.
HARRIS: Have there been any other defectors who have come out and have confirmed what Hussein Kamel said?
BARRY: Yes, I understand there were. I haven't interviewed them myself, because most of them have been kept under wraps. But there was one of the aides to Hussein Kamel, a Major Isidin (ph), who came out with him, and in fact did not go back into Iraq, and therefore didn't get killed, and is now living, I think, somewhere in Europe.
He was, in fact, a better technical source on the programs than Kamel had been, because he was a technician, not a manager, and he -- I am told by reliable sources, he confirmed what Kamel had said. As to other defectors, it gets very muddy, because some of the defectors, essentially, will say anything to get a green card, and I am quoting a U.S. intelligence officer when I say that. So it's very hard to -- for outsiders, to weigh the probity or otherwise of defectors.
HARRIS: That's very fascinating as well. John Barry, thank you very much. Appreciate you coming in and explaining some more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this piece and nice piece reporting yourself. Take care.
BARRY: Thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
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