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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Bush Reviews Iraq Battle Plans
Aired March 5, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight, the U.S. says Iraq is not only hiding weapons of mass destruction, it's making more of them right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: The military's top brass brief the president.
GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Our troops in the field are trained. They're ready. They are capable and if the president of the United States decided to undertake military operations, there is no doubt we will prevail.
ANNOUNCER: Are these the final days before war with Iraq?
Breaking bin Laden's bank. An alleged al Qaeda money man in custody.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Al moyad personally handed to Osama bin Laden $20 million from his terrorist fund-raising network.
ANNOUNCER: The U.S. says he raised millions for terror from this New York mosque. Bankrolling bad guys? Not in my backyard.
A 14-year-old girl missing and suspected to be traveling across the country with a convicted murderer.
CAROL RYAN, MISSING GIRL'S MOTHER: I will do whatever it takes. I will do whatever it takes to get you home.
ANNOUNCER: Now the race is on to find Lindsey Ryan.
Bonny Lee Bakley, the woman police say was murdered by Robert Blake. Tonight, Bakley's daughter sheds some light on the mother she knew.
And a silver star for our "Person of the Day."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. Tonight, the battle plans. President Bush today reviewed America's military strategy with the top military brass, including the general who would command a U.S. invasion of Iraq.
The White House meeting came as France, Germany, and Russia said they will not accept a U.N. resolution, which the U.S. wants, authorizing the use of force against Iraq.
Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Hans Blix is due to brief the U.N. on Friday. And today he was asked about America's contention that giving inspections more time serves no purpose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: If we were to be given more months, I would welcome it. I said that last time I was here, I think, because I think that there were eight years of inspections and then here are four years of non-inspection, now we have had a couple of months of inspection and it seems to me to be a rather short time to close the door and say this is it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: But speaking later, Secretary of State Colin Powell said inspections are not the issue. Powell said Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's intent to disarm is the issue.
And he said new U.S. intelligence suggests Iraq's latest steps have not been progress, they've been a charade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: From recent intelligence, we know that the Iraqi regime intends to declare and destroy only a portion of its banned al-Samoud inventory. And that it has, in fact, ordered the continued production of the missiles that you see being destroyed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Powell also said U.S. intelligence suggests Iraq is hiding biochemical weapons in poor sections of Baghdad, and he said the U.S. has done all it can to prevent war.
As CNN senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports, the question of if is turning to when and how.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In what might be his last White House Meeting before going to war, U.S. Central Commander General Tommy Franks briefed President Bush and his national security team on plans for war without Turkey, which sources say has all been written out of the war plan.
FRANKS: If the president of the United States decides to undertake action, we are in a position to provide a military option.
MCINTYRE: But Pentagon sources say the U.S. still needs a few more days to get the rest of the 101st airborne and its equipment in place in Kuwait. Forces from the 101st and the 82nd airborne will secure northern Iraq from the south, using assault helicopters and paratroops.
And the U.S. needs to decide whether to move two aircraft carriers out of the eastern Mediterranean to the Red Sea, so they can send planes over Saudi Arabia if Turkey doesn't grant overflight rights.
But soon, sources say, the U.S. will issue a final public warning.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If we arrive at that point, we'll have announcements that will make clear what our thoughts are.
MCINTYRE: Sources say the warning will be aimed at putting western journalists, U.N. inspectors and others on notice that it's time to leave. And sources say reporters will be told it's unlikely they'll be able to file their stories, because the military's shock and shock and awe strategy will use new tactics to shut down all power and communications.
Meanwhile, the U.S. continues to prepare the battlefield, taking advantage of two extra aircraft carriers in the Gulf to double and triple the number of no-fly zone patrols. Sources say more than 750 sorties are being flown each day.
Meanwhile, General Tommy Franks will return to his forward headquarters in Qatar in a few days, sources say, to make the final preparations for attack.
(on camera): While the U.S. military still has some things it needs to move around, the biggest roadblock on the march to war is not logistical, it's political. Sources say as soon as the issue of a second U.N. resolution is resolved, the U.S. military will be ready to go, and that puts the likely window for war at sometime around the middle of the month.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now to help flesh out the details of America's war plan is CNN military analyst, General Wesley Clark, author of "Waging Modern War, " and the former NATO supreme allied commander, who led Operation Allied Force in Kosovo.
General Clark, thank you always for being with us.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good to be with you, Connie. CHUNG: When will this war take place? Because we have heard estimates as early as next week and other estimates as late as the end of March.
CLARK: I think it really depends on the diplomacy, not the military preparations at this point.
In other words, the president's going to have to decide whether he's still making progress in the United Nations and whether it's possible to get a U.N. second resolution that gives us a little bit more support, or if he senses that we're losing the momentum in the United Nations and the tide of opinion is shifting against the United States, he may decide to go earlier.
At the earliest, it could be next week. At the latest, it could be delayed two to three weeks if the diplomacy is promising.
CHUNG: Well, General Tommy Franks said today -- quote -- "If the president decides to take action we are in a position to provide a military option." Does that mean that our forces are in place and ready to go?
CLARK: Well, it means that -- just exactly what he says -- that we have forces there, we could do the military option. It wouldn't be the same plan as if we had received Turkish permission to deploy the 4th infantry division and its associated elements through northern -- or through Turkey and into northern Iraq. That would have been the complete plan, and we're not ready to do that right now.
But we do have substantial forces in the region. We've got all our air power there. We've got forces on the ground in Kuwait. We've got more coming in every day. And yes, General Franks means exactly what he said. We've got a military option if we need it right now.
You mentioned Turkey. Is Turkey out of the picture in your estimation?
CLARK: Not clear to me. It sounds like both sides are still regrouping in Turkey. I think the Turkish General Staff, which is the traditionally very strong pro-American element in Turkey, is now beginning to weigh in. They've been reluctant to do that because they don't want to put a lot of pressure on Turkey's democratic system. But I think they recognize the importance of a relationship with the United States.
On the other hand, the Turkish public is strongly opposed and the deputies who voted down the first effort have probably gotten additional support by their show of independence from the United States.
CHUNG: Now, the chairman of the joint chiefs, General Myers, said that this war is going to be much, much different from the Persian Gulf War. How will it be different?
CLARK: Well, we haven't seen the plans, of course, and we should also make that clear. Those of us who are commenting on television, we have never seen the plans. We'd never do anything to give away information that could damage our troops or put our men and women there in jeopardy.
But it's clear from all of the preparations and all of the discussion that has been revealed to the press and media that, in this case, we're going to have a reduced air campaign -- more intense but not the 40-day plus air campaign that we had in Desert Storm. It may take a day, two days, six, eight days, depending on the particular branch of the plan they run, and we'll start moving the ground troops in.
They've got to go along way. They've got to get from Kuwait up to Baghdad. It's several hundred miles. They've got to cross at least one major river. And then they've got to worry about the problem of Baghdad. Plus we'll be putting forces into northern Iraq, and if they don't come through Turkey, then we'll have to probably airlift them into northern Iraq and then turn them down around and bring them south.
So there's going to be a lot more ground movement early on in this campaign. It's going to go a lot further. And there's not going to be a long period between the start of the air operation and when the ground movement begins.
CHUNG: All right.
Well, military analysts are saying that Saddam Hussein is not going to defend his borders. In fact, he's going to make his last stand in Baghdad. Are we prepared for that kind of strategy?
CLARK: That's always been a concern as we've looked at it because we know that historically fighting in an urban area is very difficult.
On the other hand, this was clearly one of his options. We've prepared for it. We've got a good weapons, we've got good training, we've got very courageous men and women, and we've got the assistance of large portions of the Iraqi population, some of whom in Baghdad are probably going to turn and fight against Saddam Hussein.
CHUNG: It isn't likely that he's going to be a sitting duck sitting in Baghdad, waiting for us to get there, is he?
CLARK: There's no telling where he is. I mean, he's had -- the reports say he's got a lot of doubles and he may not even be in Baghdad. He may be out in Tikrit, he may have a mountain hideout that maybe we don't know about. But he's going to do everything he can to protect himself because he knows he's a legitimate target in this war, he's the head of the Iraqi command and control apparatus, that makes him a target.
CHUNG: All right. General Wesley Clark, thank you.
CLARK: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: The administration has warned that if America does invade Iraq it could increase the likelihood of terrorism aimed at U.S. interests.
Joining us now is former journalist John Miller, who has interviewed Osama bin Laden and now serves as the Los Angeles police chief of homeland security.
John, thank you for being with us.
JOHN MILLER, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Thanks, Connie. It's good to speak with you again.
CHUNG: We are getting word now that the FBI is telling state and local authorities that the apprehension of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed may indeed prompt some terror attacks against the U.S.
What is your assessment of that warning?
MILLER: Well, you have to be mindful of the fact that there are -- there is the possibility of sleeper cells on U.S. soil. Everybody in the intelligence community and law enforcement believes that's true. And that that could accelerate their work because they would worry about being exposed. On the other hand, it could work in favor of law enforcement in the intelligence community. The capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed may cause plots to be shut down because they feel, well, we are exposed, so let's move on to another plan somewhere. And it takes a while to bring those things together. It's just hard to say which way it will go.
CHUNG: Well, John, I think all of us in America would like to say to ourselves we're going breathe a sigh of relief now that Mohammed is in the custody of U.S. intelligence and is being interrogated.
Is that true?
MILLER: Well, in any measure the fact that the FBI and the CIA have been able to capture him with the help of the Pakistani authorities, it's a good thing, it's a big thing. He is al Qaeda's quarterback, their star quarterback. He's been behind every major terrorist attack in the last decade, going back to plots unfolding in Manila to kill the Pope, President Clinton, to blow airliners out of the sky, right up to the September 11 plot. So having him off the field is good.
Now, Connie, does that mean al Qaeda does not have a second string quarterback, does not have another manager out there? No, it doesn't. There are any number of people out there, Haroun Fazil (ph), who ran the embassy bombing plots, Tafek bin Atash (ph), who ran the Cole plot. There are other al Qaeda operatives who have done other attacks. But I think the U.S. government has removed their star player.
CHUNG: Is it conceivable that we would see suicide bombers on our shores?
MILLER: It is conceivable. Some wonder why it hasn't happened yet. Certainly in his last communique of February 11 Osama bin Laden called on his followers to execute martyr operations against the U.S. and Israel. But there's an awful lot of vigilance in security, too. Here in the Los Angeles Police Department we've sent our bomb squad people to Israel. They are training our officers here on how to recognize those traits, how to look for that in a crowd, and we are training private security people in that vein also.
CHUNG: There was a frightening report actually in the "Los Angeles Times" that suggested that Iraq was sending out agents to all parts of the world to engage in terrorist activities if in the event the United States does go to war with Iraq.
MILLER: Well, historically, Iraq has been a state sponsor of terrorism going back several years, but never -- never having government agents act directly in that regard. But again, to use the cliche, this is war. So you have to count on them to have intelligence agents and intelligence apparatus, saboteurs, and yes, even terrorists. Perhaps government agents, perhaps others that they sponsor.
CHUNG: Attorney General John Ashcroft announced that charges were being filed against two Yemeni men who had apparently funneled $20 million to the al Qaeda organization through a mosque in New York.
Is it possible that there are other mosques in the United States that are engaging in this kind of activity as well?
MILLER: Well, there has been a pattern over the years of certain mosques, particularly more radical mosques having, as well as perfectly legitimate worshipers, a side group, a subgroup that have engaged in radical activity, even terrorist plots. However, you have to be very careful there.
There are many mosques in this country, a large Islamic community that is perfectly law-abiding and perfectly legitimately religious, that has a right to worship. So you don't want to paint with a broad brush. The mosque in question that Attorney General Ashcroft was referring to today in Brooklyn has a long and detailed history of being a haven for terrorist groups and leaders, Sheikh Abdul Rahman from the first World Trade Center bombing preached there.
Osama bin Laden funded an office in the bottom of that mosque for the Afghan services office which first recruited fighters for the war against the Russians in Afghanistan but then later essentially became the back office for al Qaeda right there in New York City, raising money and training people. So that particular case certainly is one that's been a focus of the FBI's and the New York Police Department's for many years.
CHUNG: John Miller, I thank you so much for being with us. It's so nice to see you. We used to work at that other network together.
MILLER: It's good to see you again, too. That's right. Thanks, Connie.
CHUNG: Still ahead, who's making the decision about war?
President Bush or the man who has guided the president's entire political career?
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next, she disappeared from her home with several guns, ammo, and $4,000 cash. Now police say 14-year-old Lindsay Ryan is on the run with this convicted killer. Her parents ask why and plead for her return.
When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: The search is on tonight after police said several witnesses have seen 56-year-old convicted killer Terry Drake and the 14-year-old girl he has with him. It's been more than four days since Lindsay Ryan disappeared.
CNN's Jeff Flock put together a timeline of an ordeal that may have started with Lindsay's consent.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It doesn't sound good for 14-year-old Lindsay Ryan. Police say she was lured from her home by this convicted murderer more than 40 years her senior who she met at church. Her parents believe she took money, guns, and ammunition from their house, and her hair has apparently been dyed black to elude capture. The two have now been seen three times heading west on interstate 80.
PATRICK RYAN, LINDSEY'S FATHER: We hope that somebody will spot her and tell authorities. That's what we really hope will happen.
FLOCK (on camera): What does your gut tell you about how this is going to come out?
P. RYAN: Well, my gut tells me hopefully that everything's going to be OK, that we're going to find Lindsey, she's going to be safe.
FLOCK (voice-over): But details now emerging about Terry Drake, the 56-year-old ex-convict now on the run with Lindsey, are sending chills through both police and the girl's family.
MICHAEL KEARSCHNER, VICTIM'S HUSBAND: He'll do it again and again and again as long as there is a breath of air in his lungs.
FLOCK: It was Michael Kearschner's wife that Drake confessed to killing in 1977.
(on camera): Authorities confirmed drake also met her from church events, he abducted her from her house, also taking a gun. It ended up being the gun that Drake eventually used to kill her.
KEARSCHNER: I think this is a repetitive con on his part, like he emphasized with me, when he moves into a community that the easiest avenue of acceptance and finding a female is "I'm born again." FLOCK: Lindsey's mother says Drake told her he was born again.
C. RYAN And his story was that he was a bad guy once and got a salivation experience that was out of this world and he's born again and a different man.
FLOCK: Lindsey's father told me he was suspicious of Drake but had no idea he was carrying on an e-mail relationship with Lindsey.
P. RYAN: Church people tend to be naive, gullible, innocent.
FLOCK (on camera): Want to believe the best.
P. RYAN: Well, sure. And we raise our own children to be innocent.
FLOCK (voice-over): Her parents now think it was that innocence that led her to be taken in by Drake, and they are praying what happened 25 years ago doesn't happen again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your first thought when you saw this?
KEARSCHNER: It was just overwhelming hurt. And the second thought, not having all the details, was this poor girl is dead.
FLOCK: Authorities remain hopeful each time she's been spotted since Saturday Lindsey appears unharmed.
I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, Cassopolis, Michigan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now from Cassopolis, Michigan, Lindsey's parents, Carol and Patrick Ryan and the Sheriff, Joseph Underwood, of Cass County.
Thank you for being with us.
Carol, I know you discovered your daughter was missing when you went to wake her up in the morning and the door was locked, you broke open the door and you discovered the bed was empty and the window was open.
What did you think?
C. RYAN: That was a mother's horror. I remember thinking this is exactly out of a nightmare movie. The window, the curtain blowing through. It couldn't have gotten any more graphic, any more stereotypic.
CHUNG: Yes. Now, authorities do believe that your daughter left on her own accord.
Did that come as a complete shock to you?
C. RYAN: Yes, but not really in the sense that consent is impossible with him. He's a manipulator. She may have gone out on...
CHUNG: You mean the man you believe she's with?
C. RYAN: Absolutely. She consented only out of ignorance.
CHUNG: Why do you think he's a manipulator?
I mean, what reason do you have to believe that he is?
C. RYAN: Well, because he took my daughter. I go to church with him. You know, hi, Mrs. Ryan, hi, how's everything?
All the while he was conspiring to steal her.
CHUNG: Were you at all suspicious of him early on, Carol?
C. RYAN: He's a creepy dude. He just looks icky. And we did distance ourselves. We were only cordial. We didn't have him over. We didn't allow contact. His wife was more friendly and more appealing, and Lindsey liked her. And he used that as a vehicle to start communicating with her, unknown to me.
CHUNG: I see.
Patrick, were you aware that this man had a criminal record?
P. RYAN: I was aware that he had a criminal background, yes.
CHUNG: And what did you all think?
I mean, there he was at church. Did he try to explain his way into the church and why he was going?
P. RYAN: He was rather open about the fact that he was an ex- con. That was part of his facade. But it was very clear, and we were very clear about the boundaries. We set boundaries early on, from first meeting him.
CHUNG: Did he just...
P. RYAN: And there was no contact.
CHUNG: Patrick, were you aware that your daughter was e-mailing him and he was e-mailing her?
P. RYAN: Not even a bit. And that was purposeful. Both of them knew that had I had even an inkling of that that there would have been changes, that that would not have been permitted at all.
CHUNG: Carol, did you have any idea that the guns that were missing and the cash that was gone could possibly have been taken by your daughter?
C. RYAN: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It was incomprehensible.
CHUNG: Sheriff Underwood, what can you tell us about the investigation?
I know that she has been sighted or believed to have been sighted with this man.
Any new leads now?
SHERIFF JOE UNDERWOOD, CASS COUNTY P.D.: We're still working on some leads that we've gotten in overnight. The leads are still in the Nevada area, out in Nevada, Utah area. We have not confirmed those leads as being positive sightings today, but we are hoping later today that through the FBI and the local agencies out there we'll be able to confirm that those are good sightings.
CHUNG: And in those sightings does it appear as if -- that the young girl is really being held against her will or that she's going willingly?
UNDERWOOD: Well, she is with him in the sightings. It's unknown whether or not she feels afraid. The people that have seen her felt that something was wrong, but they were not for sure until they saw something on the news about this investigation.
CHUNG: Carol, how could someone just scoop her up?
C. RYAN: I think she was lured. I think she intended on coming back. And I think she's scared. But I also know that she's using her survival tactics that we have always taught her, when you're scared don't let it known you know, think, be clear, plan ahead, be strong. And I think she's all of those. I think that's what she's doing. And my plea is, Lindsey, if you can hear me, get out of there. Get away from him as quickly, as quickly as you can. He is a danger.
CHUNG: Carol, how are you?
Are you -- how are you handling all of this?
C. RYAN: Connie, are you a mom?
CHUNG: Yes. Absolutely.
C. RYAN: You can answer that question.
CHUNG: Yes, I get it.
C. RYAN: It's the worst experience of my life. Absolutely. The only good thing is I'm being carried through it with friends, family, prayer, and hope. Someone is going to see her today, and please, if you -- you know, we live in a time where we think you don't matter. You can matter. You can save a life today. Please call. Please don't wait until tomorrow. Get on the horn and get some intervention going right now.
CHUNG: All right. Well, our prayers are out for Lindsey as well and for you, Carol and Patrick. And thank you, Sheriff Underwood for being with us as well.
C. RYAN: Thank you for hearing us, Connie.
CHUNG: Just over 10 weeks after the disappearance of Laci Peterson, the pregnant substitute teacher in Modesto, California, police tonight said what people have feared from the beginning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. DOUG RIDENOUR, MODESTO, CALIFORNIA POLICE DEPARTMENT: As this investigation has progressed, we have increasingly come to believe that Laci Peterson is the victim of a violent crime. This investigation began as a missing person case, and we were all hopeful that Laci would return safely. However, we have become -- we have come to consider that this is now a homicide case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Police said several factors led them to reclassify the case as a homicide. Among them, investigative developments they are not revealing and the fact that Peterson had been due to give birth last month. Her husband, Scott's status remains unchanged, not a suspect, not ruled out.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Next, Bonny Bakley's daughter sets the record straight about her mom, and the man she says killed her in cold blood.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: More drama in the court room where Robert Blake's preliminary hearing on whether he'll be tried for murder continues.
Blake watched as his attorneys cross-examined detectives on whether they investigated anyone else as the possible killer of Blake's wife, Bonny Lee Bakley.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS MESEREAU JR., ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT BLAKE: Did you at any time in this comprehensive investigation that you were co-lead detective on ever investigate whether or not Bonny Bakley associated with bikers?
BRIAN TYNDALL, LAPD: No. I was dealing in a murder investigation.
MESEREAU: OK.
TYNDALL: Not an association.
MESEREAU: So that issue didn't concern you, correct?
TYNDALL: Not when I was investigating this case, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Throughout the hearing, the defense has solicited testimony about the victim's character and suggested that any number of people had a motive to kill her.
Joining us now from Los Angeles, we have Bonny Lee Bakley's daughter, Holly Gawron, and her attorney in her civil suit against Blake, Eric Dubin.
Thank you both for being with us.
ERIC DUBIN, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLY GAWRON: Hi, Connie. Thank you.
HOLLY GAWRON, DAUGHTER OF BONNY LEE BAKLEY: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Holly, how would you describe your mom's relationship with Robert Blake?
GAWRON: I think it was very troubled.
She mostly, after the marriage and a little before the marriage, wanted the child more than anything. She knew she was getting in a little over her head with him. And she was trying to back out, when he forced her to marry him. So, right from the start, it was bad news, but she did everything for the child.
CHUNG: You had said before that your mother was a bit starstruck. Do you think she actually loved Robert Blake? Because, after all, Holly, he wasn't exactly the most stable person in the world.
GAWRON: She did fall in love with him. I think, from the day they met, she really, really liked him. It was all she talked about. And he wasn't exactly the type of celebrity that she was after. She just thought they were really nice together. So it worked for a little while.
CHUNG: What was troubling about their relationship?
GAWRON: Well, the way he treated her. I mean, every time he called, he would yell at her, say nasty things to her. And I don't even know why she put up with it, unless she really loved him.
CHUNG: Well, let's listen to an audiotape conversation that was played at the trial. And I'm sure this is difficult for you to listen to, but forgive us. Bear with us. And we'll listen to it and then perhaps you can tell me a little bit about that, all right?
OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONNY LEE BAKLEY: I don't know what I was thinking. I just wanted to be with you. And I like the way things were going.
ROBERT BLAKE, DEFENDANT: You wanted to get pregnant. For whatever reason, that's what you did. You lied to me. You double- crossed me. You double-dealt me. And that's who you are. That's how you operate. I mean, it doesn't stop me from caring about you and wanting to be with you, but...
BAKLEY: It sounds like it does.
BLAKE: I'm not going to lie about who you are and what you are, because that's who you are. That's what you are. And that's what you do. And those are big lies, baby. And if you can live with that and if that doesn't come down on you, I can't do that kind of thing or it would get me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Holly, what do you think was going on there between the two of them?
GAWRON: Well, I know that he was trying to make her get an abortion, and that's the last thing she was going to do.
CHUNG: When was the last time you spoke with your mom?
GAWRON: That was the night before it happened. She called me.
CHUNG: Did she sound worried or was she afraid of anything?
GAWRON: She was very shaky, very short. She couldn't openly talk with me. It was like someone was in the room watching her and she couldn't say what she wanted to. She was very upset. But then we exchanged "I love you"s and she promised to see me again soon. She had a trip planned back to Memphis. And that never happened.
CHUNG: And then I know your brother called you and said that your mother had been killed.
Did you, right at that moment, say to yourself, I think I know who murdered my mother?
GAWRON: Oh, I knew instantly. I knew. There could have been nobody else. Nobody knew where she was. She was always spontaneous like that. She was there for five days. And I knew exactly who did it. It was a trap to begin with, all of it. He set her up.
CHUNG: She had been at Robert Blake's house for just five days, is what you're saying?
GAWRON: Correct.
CHUNG: Eric Dubin, what's the status of Holly's civil case now that the judge has ordered that it is at a standstill while the criminal trial goes on?
DUBIN: Well, we're thankful for that ruling, Connie. Mr. Mesereau is looking at contempt of court and sanctions in mid-June, when the next hearing will be. And then it's for sure now that we will not proceed forward until the criminal trial's over. And we're thankful for that.
CHUNG: Holly Gawron, Eric Dubin, thank you.
And still ahead: the son of an Oklahoma City bomber in trouble with the law.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next: George W. Bush makes the most important decision of his presidency. What's going on inside the mind of the president?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As President Bush prepares to make what could be the most fateful decisions of his presidency, on Iraq, North Korea, the war on terrorism, there is one person, some say, he listens to more than any other. He's a man who's been the guiding force behind George W. Bush's entire political career.
Karl Rove's official title is senior political adviser. But, according to a new book by two journalists who've spent much of their careers covering Bush and Rove, a better title for Rove might be "Bush's Brain."
And co-authors James Moore and Wayne Slater are here with us now.
Thank you so much for joining us.
JAMES MOORE, CO-AUTHOR, "BUSH'S BRAIN": Thanks for having us.
WAYNE SLATER, CO-AUTHOR, "BUSH'S BRAIN": Great to be here.
CHUNG: Now, I know you claim that you are not suggesting in any way that President Bush is stupid.
MOORE: No.
CHUNG: Or a dim bulb. These are words that you use.
SLATER: That's correct.
CHUNG: But, indeed, I have to tell you, in reading over your book, he does come across in that way, as a dim bulb, as stupid. And the title, in and of itself, "Bush's Brain," suggests that Mr. Bush doesn't have one.
MOORE: Well, first thing, Connie, this wasn't meant to be pejorative. We believe that the president is a very capable guy. He has the kind of what I think we've described as a leadership genius. He is a guy who has certitude. He has a willingness and an ability to make decisions.
But that is his gift. And that's something that people are drawn to right now in a very difficult time. "Bush's Brain" was Karl's nickname in Texas for many, many years. He was the brainy Karl Rove. He was the guy with a strategy. But, having said all that stuff about the president, what you have to know about him is that he is one head of two heads on the same body. Karl is the other one.
Karl has the strategy. Karl has the brains. Karl has the vision. And he gave all of those to George Bush.
CHUNG: But, Wayne, is Karl Rove not just a person with political advice, but you mean policy you're talking about?
SLATER: Absolutely.
CHUNG: But that's utterly absurd.
SLATER: I know. It's amazing.
Jim and I have covered George Bush for more than a decade, covered Karl Rove longer than that. We know these men very, very well. The extraordinary thing about Rove and why he is different than perhaps anybody else who's found his way with a president in the West Wing of the White House is not only that he is a brilliant political mind -- and he is -- but he also has moved into policy in a great way.
He talks a lot about policy and recommends -- especially domestic policy -- recommends things for the president. Moreover, he's a guy who was with Bush from the very beginning. In 1990, February of 1990, he sat down with a friend of ours. And Karl was describing how he was going to make George Bush president in detail, not just governor, but president. George Bush had never held office before that.
CHUNG: But couldn't this be a person who's just talking big? Aren't you giving him much more credit than the man deserves?
MOORE: No, actually not.
CHUNG: And you're giving so much less credit to a man named George W. Bush. You're denigrating the president.
MOORE: There's no question that the president is growing into his job. But the president would not...
CHUNG: You're going to give him that little morsel.
MOORE: But the president would not be the president without Karl Rove, Connie.
In fact, here's an example. When Bill Clinton decided to be president of the United States, he brought to that his own vision of what he wanted to do for the country. He had politics and policy that he had...
CHUNG: Oh, I've heard this before. But he also made every decision based on political issues.
MOORE: There's no question. But George Bush does the same thing. But what George Bush does is, he doesn't -- he doesn't allow that discussion to be brought into the White House, because he has this relationship with Karl that he's had forever and ever. And he knows that Karl is out there working those polls. And George Bush is able to say, I don't pay any attention to the polls, because Karl Rove does for him.
CHUNG: Well, Wayne, isn't that kind of smart?
SLATER: That's brilliant.
(LAUGHTER)
SLATER: This is brilliant.
Let me tell you, this is a relationship where each man brings something to the table and the sum of their two parts is bigger than either by themselves.
CHUNG: I want to read you a little sentence that came from Tom Friedman for "The New York Times." He said: "Anyone who thinks President Bush is doing this" -- meaning the war in Iraq -- "for political reasons is nuts. You could do this only if you really believed in it, because Bush is betting his whole presidency on this war of choice."
CHUNG: Doesn't that conflict with one of your premises...
MOORE: No.
CHUNG: ... in that this is really a domestic decision on the part of Karl Rove that the United States is heading into war?
MOORE: You have to think about all the things that this does politically for the president. The economy won't get up off of its knees. This distracts from that. We can't find a 6 foot, 4 inch Muslim attached to a dialysis machine knocking around in the mountains of Afghanistan or Pakistan or wherever.
CHUNG: He's talking about Osama bin Laden.
MOORE: That's right. That distracts from the failed war on terrorism. We get over there and we're standing atop of the largest oil reserves in the world, 200 billion barrels, by some estimates. We're in control of that.
That puts a downward pressure on the price of our oil. It stabilizes our economy. We're a military force in the Mideast and we're protecting Israel and co-opting Saudi Arabia at the same time.
CHUNG: Oh, my, how cynical the two of you are. But, in the last 15 seconds, this is sort of like wag the dog.
SLATER: Well, it is. In some ways, it is about wag the dog.
On the other hand, the thing about Karl Rove is that he means well. The thing, I think, that readers and viewers and folks who are watching the White House ought to remember is that Karl Rove's advice to him is based on politics. His sole goal is to get George Bush reelected. Every decision that the governor and that the president now makes is because Karl Rove has some input and is a voice that's louder than any other in the White House.
CHUNG: Well, I thank you so much. So thank you.
MOORE: Thanks for having us.
CHUNG: Appreciate it.
In the Middle East tonight, Israeli helicopters fired several missiles into a Palestinian refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. Witnesses report at least one person was killed. The firing came hours after the terrorist bombing that tops tonight's look at "The World in: 60."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): At least 15 people were killed and dozens more wounded in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in the Northern Israeli city of Haifa. The militant Palestinian group Hamas claimed responsibility. It was the first such attack in two months.
Pope John Paul II asked believers of all religions to pray and fast for peace today, as his personal envoy met President Bush with a message to avoid war with Iraq.
Senate Democratic leaders urged President Bush to begin direct talks with North Korea over its growing nuclear threat, this as the U.S. deployed more heavy bombers near the Korean Peninsula.
The Philippines ruled out an active combat role for U.S. troops as the country battles Muslim separatists. Investigators are questioning the suspected militants over Tuesday's airport bomb that killed 21 people.
Coroners ruled that two men held in U.S. custody in Afghanistan last December were murdered. It was not clear how the men were killed. No charges have been filed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A Louisiana serial killer task force is investigating the disappearance of a 26-year-old graduate student today. Police said there is no known link to the serial killer who has murdered four women in the past couple of years. However, the missing woman, Carrie Lynn Yoder, lives near two of the victims. After she went shopping Monday, the groceries were found still in the bags at her home, but the back door was open and she was nowhere to be found.
Right now, tonight's "Snapshot" begins with news about the family of Terry Nichols, the man who helped Timothy McVeigh bomb the Oklahoma City Federal Building. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): Terry Nichols' son Josh is now on probation for stealing a scooter to help pay for his drug habit. Despite several run-ins with the law, his attorney says, because his client's father is so notorious, people should -- quote -- "understand the kind of pain Josh is in every day."
Last night, police in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, took a 14-year-old boy into custody after searching his home and seizing his computer. They say the teenager could face felony terrorism charges for threatening to blow up Columbine High School while he was on the Internet.
Today, U.S. lawmakers got the royal treatment when it comes to their waistlines. Sarah Ferguson set up a special weigh-in station inside a Senate office building, so members of Congress could check their body mass index.
And today's edition of "USA Today" points out some new research that many cardiac patients may want to take to heart. The paper mentions a new study that found happy adults with heart disease are 20 percent more likely to live at least 11 more years than heart patients with sour dispositions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: a silver star for our "Person of the Day."
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: All month, "TIME" magazine, which is owned by our parent company, is marking its 80th anniversary by spotlighting 80 days that changed the world. Here on CNN, we're profiling some of those days.
Tonight, we look at a day that had such an impact, it got a nickname, still used today: Black Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANIEL KADLEC, "TIME": On October 29, 1929, it was at that point the -- one of the biggest collapses of stock prices in the history of mankind. This was really a chastening of the public investor for the first time in a big way.
People came in on that Tuesday a little bit nervous, but thinking that things were going to be OK. The market started falling almost immediately. Concerted buying efforts by the big bankers and big moneymen of the day failed, when people just overwhelmed the market with selling.
Did it cause the Depression or not? It's an open question, still. But, back in 1929, there was no deposit insurance. So, even people who weren't in the stock market, but had money in a savings account felt it, because banks failed.
I think the first thing that we learned from the '29 crash is that the Federal Reserve, if it acts fast, can do a lot of good to stem the damage. We also developed deposit insurance, which is another tremendous safeguard that is with us today.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tonight, the newest member of the Texas Rangers is our "Person of the Day."
Travis Crognale (ph) is also the youngest member of the Texas Rangers. And, at 5 years old, we're pretty sure his record is secure. Travis was inducted yesterday, part of a weeklong visit with the Rangers. He got the boots, the hat, and a badge. Travis flew down to Austin for the ceremony from his home in Pennsylvania.
It was all arranged by the Make-A-Wish Foundation because Travis has a life-threatening heart condition. He will undergo open-heart surgery in June. The foundation had asked Travis what some of his favorite things were. It turned out he likes the TV show "Walker, Texas Ranger."
So, with a nod to the Rangers themselves, we salute this plucky young fighter Travis, Texas Ranger, as tonight's "Person of the Day."
And tomorrow: Did you know there's a place in America where you'll be arrested if your shirt says, "Give Peace a Chance"? Well, tomorrow, you'll meet the man facing jail time for just that.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Alternative medicine, is it bad for your health?
Thank you so much for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and we'll see you tomorrow.
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